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Os1ris09
2010-06-13, 08:02 PM
Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/ Archmage 5

This is assuming you do not lose the Wizard casting due to Ur-Priest.

Feats:
BF: Iron Will (CS otyughs hole thing)
1: Extend Spell
Wiz: Improved Initiative (ACF)
Ftr: your choice
3: Sculpt Spell
6: Twin Spell
9: Quicken Spell
12: Repeat Spell
15: Empower Spell
18: Chain Spell

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 08:03 PM
This is assuming you do not lose the Wizard casting due to Ur-Priest.


Why would you? :smallconfused:

JeminiZero
2010-06-13, 08:15 PM
Needs Practiced Spellcaster for both Wizard and Ur Priest.

Caphi
2010-06-13, 08:17 PM
What's the fighter level doing in there? You don't need the feat or anything. If you're married to it, why not load the Improved Initiative onto it and keep your familiar?

Os1ris09
2010-06-13, 08:18 PM
Why would you? :smallconfused:

I remember reading somewhere that you lose previous spellcasting things... maybe it was only for clerics..... I dont remember off hand.

The fighter level is in there specifically for the +2 to fort AND weapon stuff.

I forgot about practiced spellcaster. Add a flaw feat and put it there. :smallbiggrin:

Havelock
2010-06-13, 08:23 PM
What's the point of adding fighter? One more level of Wizard would be better IMO, 3 extra HP, +2 fortitude and +1BAB isn't exactly worth the trade.

You also need spell focus(evil).

On the whole, it's quite the strong build. Sacrificing two (three in your case) levels of Wizard casting to get Ur-priest casting is well worth it.

The downside is that at higher levels, the Ur-priest doesn't give you that much extra spellpower, it's main forte lies in quicker access to high level spells, it grants more versatility than the last two levels of Wizard would, however.

I can think of a few combos that should outperform it though, such as Beguiler 10/Rainbow Servant 10, maybe some other full CL progression PRC's on the beguiler side perhaps. It does not grant you access to that many spells, but more spell slots and the ability to spontanously cast all (non-evil, non-chaotic) cleric spells grants you a versatility that I don't know if can matched.

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 08:28 PM
What's the point of adding fighter? One more level of Wizard would be better IMO, 3 extra HP, +2 fortitude and +1BAB isn't exactly worth the trade.

You need the fort save to qualify for Ur-Priest. Fighter is a better dip than most for the bonus feat. Cleric would be better, but would provide no benefits besides the save due to Ur-Priest's anti-Cleric sentiment.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-13, 08:30 PM
You need the fort save to qualify for Ur-Priest. Fighter is a better dip than most for the bonus feat. Cleric would be better, but would provide no benefits besides the save due to Ur-Priest's anti-Cleric sentiment.

I think that with the right selection of domains a cleric dip can be more worthwhile than a fighter dip, unless you also loose domain granted powers I am not sure if becoming an Ur-priest also strip you from domains.

Milskidasith
2010-06-13, 08:31 PM
You need the fort save to qualify for Ur-Priest. Fighter is a better dip than most for the bonus feat. Cleric would be better, but would provide no benefits besides the save due to Ur-Priest's anti-Cleric sentiment.

Wouldn't a dip in warblade the level before you take Ur-Priest better due to the weapon stuff, fort save, and getting a few low level maneuvers? If ToB is excluded or you really need the bonus feat, I can see taking fighter, but otherwise Warblade seems like a good dip, since you'd be IL 3 and be able to pick up second level maneuvers (not amazing, but there's some good utility there, IIRC).

EDIT: Also, with the swordsage from above, instead of domain powers, take domain feats. Knowledge devotion is hardcore and you get it for free with cleric; the devotion feats are generally far more powerful than a fighter bonus feat or maneuvers, at least for casters.

demidracolich
2010-06-13, 08:31 PM
Um, mabye warblade instead of fighter?

Os1ris09
2010-06-13, 08:32 PM
You need the fort save to qualify for Ur-Priest. Fighter is a better dip than most for the bonus feat. Cleric would be better, but would provide no benefits besides the save due to Ur-Priest's anti-Cleric sentiment.

Ok so my gut was right... LOL :smallbiggrin:

@ Havelock: The fighter dip is just that. Thanks for pointing out Spell focus, add another flaw and pick it up. I am sure there are ALOT of classes that can outpower it. I was just going for the Divine/Arcane mix and see what I could get out of it. :smallbiggrin: Personally I like versatility over raw power. Hence why most of my characters come with a little more abilities instead of specializing in one thing and when something comes to counter it your like 'well now I am worthless..... GO TEAM GO.'

On the note of Beguiler 10/R.S. 10 is there a blog already on that combo. I know of Warmage and R.S. but not beguiler.

erikun
2010-06-13, 08:34 PM
Ur-Priest needs Spell Focus (Evil) and Bluff 8 ranks as prerequisites also. You don't have the first and I don't see how you're getting the second.

You must also forsake all previous divine spellcasting, such as from a Cleric. Ex-Clerics lose "all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons," (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)) so you wouldn't gain any benefit from domains as an ex-Cleric.

[EDIT]
Sorry, make that Bluff 6 ranks. I apparently misread.

Also, note that you could have a straight Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Wizard 1 if you just wanted an arcane+divine caster. Wizard 9 gives you time to pick up all the prerequisites.

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 08:37 PM
I think that with the right selection of domains a cleric dip can be more worthwhile than a fighter dip, unless you also loose domain granted powers I am not sure if becoming an Ur-priest also strip you from domains.

Unfortunately it does, otherwise I would have suggested that. Ex-clerics lose both spells and class features, which includes domains.


Wouldn't a dip in warblade the level before you take Ur-Priest better due to the weapon stuff, fort save, and getting a few low level maneuvers?

Assuming ToB is even allowed, I don't know the book well enough to know whether a Warblade dip would be better than a fighter dip. Someone else more familiar with the supplement can comment to that.

Os1ris09
2010-06-13, 08:39 PM
Ur-Priest needs Spell Focus (Evil) and Bluff 8 ranks as prerequisites also. You don't have the first and I don't see how you're getting the second.

You must also forsake all previous divine spellcasting, such as from a Cleric. Ex-Clerics lose "all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons," (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)) so you wouldn't gain any benefit from domains as an ex-Cleric.

ok. Well maybe it isn't that possible. I have to think of a way to get 8 ranks into bluff and boost the Fort save as well....

@ Dusk eclipse: yes you lose the domains.

@ Milskidasith: If you're aloud to keep the devotion feats by trading your domain I would agree with you 100%. However I don't know if you can keep them since you took them by trading the domain and you lose it effectively when you become an Ur-Priest. Otherwise I can totally see it working. Use the domains to get Bluff and take the corresponding devotion feat AFTER having 8 ranks in bluff. Not a Bad idea in my book. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
@ erikun: Honestly the reason for the build in particular is that I want the benefits of Archmage. Such as arcane reach and the SLA quality. :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2010-06-13, 08:41 PM
Assuming ToB is even allowed, I don't know the book well enough to know whether a Warblade dip would be better than a fighter dip. Someone else more familiar with the supplement can comment to that.Trade a bonus feat for: +1 hp on average (D12 vs D10), +2 skills, some maneuvers and a +1 to reflex saves.

I'd say it's worth it.

JeminiZero
2010-06-13, 08:43 PM
Assuming ToB is even allowed, I don't know the book well enough to know whether a Warblade dip would be better than a fighter dip. Someone else more familiar with the supplement can comment to that.

Unless the fighter feat is being used for something important, Warblade would indeed be better. Taken at level 5 (after 4 levels of wizard) qualifies you as Initiator level 3 and lets you grab up to level 2 maneuvers (get the 1st two Diamond Mind Save boosters). It also nets you one stance: grab the Tiger Claw one that grants Scent. For the 3rd Maneuver I would recommend grabbing an Iron Heart one, to qualify you for Iron Heart Surge later on, either from feat, or by buying an Iron Heart Vest with it.

PId6
2010-06-13, 08:49 PM
If you don't mind waiting a level, Mindbender at 6th is the best way to get +2 Fort saves without sacrificing casting. Alternatively, use Savage Bard and you'll qualify for Sublime Chord later, letting you ignore wizard casting entirely.

erikun
2010-06-13, 08:49 PM
The Fighter Variant (Thug) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) has Bluff as a class skill, which solves that. Even though you'll need to spend 2 skill points to increase Bluff by 1 rank as a Wizard, you can still increase it to your level + 3 as long as it is a class skill for any one of your classes.

The bad part: you don't get a bonus feat. You could take the Sneak Attack Fighter variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) combined with the Thug variant to gain +1d6 sneak attack damage. Be wary about the DM throwing the book at you for using that many variants, though.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-06-13, 09:33 PM
I'd be tempted to replace that fighter level with a level of binder and then take Anima Mage for your last five levels.

Os1ris09
2010-06-14, 05:01 AM
I'd be tempted to replace that fighter level with a level of binder and then take Anima Mage for your last five levels.

Dont have ToM and I don't feel like making the class anymore cheesy than it already is. Right now it is pepper jack, which has a little kick and spice. I dont want complete 100% cheddar. Which is why I excluded ToB because DM that I am trying to get the build past thinks that the ToB is completely overpowered...... (ya i know complete BS right.... lol)

Savvy?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-14, 05:24 AM
Switch to Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Incantatrix 4.

PId6
2010-06-14, 05:52 AM
Or (Savage) Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 3/Ur Priest 2/Dweomerkeeper 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Dweomerkeeper 4

Cloistered Cleric must have Magic domain. Ur Priest gives up cleric spellcasting, but you don't necessarily lose anything else. Dweomerkeeper advances Ur Priest casting for the first three levels, then Sublime Chord casting for the last four levels. Use your favorite flavor of early entry to qualify for Sublime Chord. Pick whatever ACFs you want for wizard (Abrupt Jaunt, Rapid Summoning, etc). You can advance bard in place of wizard so you don't have to bother with Int, but you lose out on wizard ACFs. You're probably going to want Int anyway for the Sublime Chord prereqs. Human + Able Learner recommended.

erikun
2010-06-14, 11:39 AM
You do lose all Cleric class features upon entering Ur-Priest, including Cleric domains.

2xMachina
2010-06-14, 11:41 AM
It only says spellcasting though

Curmudgeon
2010-06-14, 12:01 PM
It only says spellcasting though
That's just what you lose through entering Ur-Priest, which covers all divine spellcasting (not just Clerical spells). It's the Cleric class that specifies what further losses you suffer when you become an Ex-Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#exClerics), and that mandates losing all class features (including domain granted powers).

Ur-priests despise gods.
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.

Os1ris09
2010-06-14, 02:19 PM
Or (Savage) Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 3/Ur Priest 2/Dweomerkeeper 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Dweomerkeeper 4

Cloistered Cleric must have Magic domain. Ur Priest gives up cleric spellcasting, but you don't necessarily lose anything else. Dweomerkeeper advances Ur Priest casting for the first three levels, then Sublime Chord casting for the last four levels. Use your favorite flavor of early entry to qualify for Sublime Chord. Pick whatever ACFs you want for wizard (Abrupt Jaunt, Rapid Summoning, etc). You can advance bard in place of wizard so you don't have to bother with Int, but you lose out on wizard ACFs. You're probably going to want Int anyway for the Sublime Chord prereqs. Human + Able Learner recommended.

I thought I had made it clear I didn't want cheddar..... LOL thx though for this type of build idea I am going to have to read into it just because I am curious.


Switch to Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Incantatrix 4.

Why mindbener.... and isn't incantatrix known as incantacheese..... LOL

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 02:24 PM
Why mindbener

1) It is one of the very few classes that will give you the fort save you need without losing caster levels.

2) that one-level dip gives you Telepathy, qualifying you for the amazing Mindsight feat (LoM).

erikun
2010-06-14, 02:30 PM
I assume Mindbender because it grants good Fort saves, giving you the required +3 Fort for Ur-Priest entry. It also has Bluff as a class skill, meaning you can get the required 6 ranks with a single level of Mindbender. (The class requires 4 ranks of Bluff for entry, but you can have that by Wizard 5 through cross-class skill ranks.) Telepathy is a nice bonus, as well.

You could easily replace Incantrix with Archmage at the end, if you prefer. There isn't anything about the Wizard/Mindbender/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge that makes Incantrix any better than Archmage.

PId6
2010-06-14, 02:47 PM
That's just what you lose through entering Ur-Priest, which covers all divine spellcasting (not just Clerical spells). It's the Cleric class that specifies what further losses you suffer when you become an Ex-Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#exClerics), and that mandates losing all class features (including domain granted powers).
What about a cleric worshiping an ideal? An ideal such as "slaying all gods" would not find despising gods a gross violation.

erikun
2010-06-14, 02:58 PM
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such a spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability if forever forsaken.

It's not a feature of the Ur-Priest but a requirement to "forever forsake" their divine spellcasting. You would need to jump through so very rules-lawyery loopholes to explain how someone could forsake their clerical spellcasting yet not be an ex-cleric.

Given that this is a character for an actual game, I wouldn't attempt to pull such a trick against the DM. (It also doesn't resolve the lack of Bluff ranks.) If you want to retain the domain abilities that badly, you're better off tossing the cleric-of-ideal-of-god-slaying at the DM and asking to keep them despite the Ur-Priest.

PId6
2010-06-14, 03:06 PM
It's not a feature of the Ur-Priest but a requirement to "forever forsake" their divine spellcasting. You would need to jump through so very rules-lawyery loopholes to explain how someone could forsake their clerical spellcasting yet not be an ex-cleric.

Given that this is a character for an actual game, I wouldn't attempt to pull such a trick against the DM. (It also doesn't resolve the lack of Bluff ranks.) If you want to retain the domain abilities that badly, you're better off tossing the cleric-of-ideal-of-god-slaying at the DM and asking to keep them despite the Ur-Priest.
You forsake your spellcasting because you'd much rather just steal power from the gods. You're still true to your ideals of slaying the gods, however, so you don't lose your cleric class features. The fluff is admittedly a bit wonky, but is still explainable and doable by RAW.

He apparently doesn't intend to use it anyway (way too cheesy regardless of this), so it's purely academic now. Bard gets Bluff and I did suggest Able Learner. The domain is necessary for qualifying for Dweomerkeeper; otherwise I'm all for dumping Cleric and avoiding the horrendous fluff. Can't think of any other way to easily get Magic domain before 6th level.

Os1ris09
2010-06-14, 07:48 PM
Ok so here is the final build:

Fire Grey Elf:
Wizard 5/Mind bender 1/Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 4

Feats
1: Spell Focus [evil]
Flaw: Twin Spell
Flaw: Empower Spell
Wizard: scribe scroll
3: improved initiative
Wizard 5: Extend spell
BF: Iron Will (otyugh's hole)
6: Repeat Spell
9: Practiced Spell Caster [Ur-Priest]
12: Quicken Spell
15: Sculpt Spell
18: Chain Spell
Archmage 1: Arcane Reach
Archmage 2: Spell-Like Ability: Teleport (-5x2)
Archmage 3: Spell-Like Ability: Time Stop (-5,-9)
Archmage 4: Spell-Like Ability: Quicken Web (-6,-5)

What do you guys think? I chose mind bender over fighter because of the telepathy AND the skill points with it to help with bluff.

lsfreak
2010-06-14, 07:58 PM
Just to throw this out there, I'm inclined to think a cleric that turned both his domains into Devotion feats wouldn't lose the feats upon picking up Ur-Priest. A cleric with 3 devotion feats might lose one, since that is a cleric-only feature.

erikun
2010-06-14, 08:01 PM
The Archmage requires Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Spell Focus in two schools of magic. Apparently this wouldn't stack with Spell Focus (Evil) given that Evil isn't a school of magic.

Everything else seems to fit, given that you will sensibly keep Kno: Arcana and Spellcraft (the other two prerequisites) at maximum skill ranks anyways. Why do you have so many metamagic feats, though? There is no way you'll be able to apply them all to your spells.

There is always the option of Divine Metamagic, given that Ur-Priest 2 has Rebuke Undead. DMM will only work with your divine magic, though.

Kaervaslol
2010-06-14, 08:02 PM
How do you roleplay a character with so many changes of profession?

Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/ Archmage 5

I mean, he goes from wizard, to fighter. Then he picks up wizard again, but decides beign priest of ur is better. Then he becomes mystic theurge and finallya settles for archmage?

Is kind of ridiculous really.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-14, 08:04 PM
A cleric with 3 devotion feats might lose one, since that is a cleric-only feature.
Actually it's a feature available to anyone with domains. If you had some other way of getting a domain before becoming an Ur-Priest you could keep 3 domain feats.

lsfreak
2010-06-14, 08:07 PM
How do you roleplay a character with so many changes of profession?

Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/ Archmage 5

I mean, he goes from wizard, to fighter. Then he picks up wizard again, but decides beign priest of ur is better. Then he becomes mystic theurge and finallya settles for archmage?

Is kind of ridiculous really.

He starts out studying arcane magic. However, due to the strains of adventuring, picks up just a little bit of martial training (perhaps merely for something like Improved Initiative), while continuing to study the arcane as well. However, arcane is but one facet of magic, and while in staunch opposition to the gods, he knows of ways to tap into divine power for his own gain, without any involvement in the gods. Mystic Theurge allows him to increase his power in both the arcane and divine, but when he finds he cannot learn any more of divine secrets, he goes on to truly master the arcane by becoming an archmage.

The latest build doesn't even need the fighter, making it even easier to explain.

EDIT: Part of your opinion is probably rooted in classes and PrC's being tangibly different from an ingame point of view. But really, there is no reason why a character would realize that taking the Archmage prestige class isn't simply continuing their study as a wizard.

erikun
2010-06-14, 08:17 PM
How do you roleplay a character with so many changes of profession?

Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/ Archmage 5
He starts out as an arcane spellcaster, intent to overthrow the false idols calling themselves gods and prove to everyone just how mortal they are. Along the way, he discovers the secrets to stealing the powers of the gods (Ur-Priest) but realizes it requires considerably better physical conditioning to achieve (+3 Fort requirement). Determined to make it a reality, he forgoes his arcane studies to focus purely on physical betterment for his upcoming theft of the power of the gods.

Mystic Theurge and Archmage are pretty easy to describe from there - it's just focusing on gaining as much magical power as possible.

But if that doesn't work for you, it's okay. Just look three posts above yours, where we've changed to build to drop the Fighter class. Now we spontaneously develop the ability to read minds! You know, if you were upset with an arcane spellcaster taking a level out for martial study. :smallyuk:

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 08:36 PM
How do you roleplay

FTFY :smallwink: Just kidding.

You can explain just about any concept with enough imagination. That is why we call it "fluff."

Os1ris09
2010-06-15, 01:50 PM
The Archmage requires Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Spell Focus in two schools of magic. Apparently this wouldn't stack with Spell Focus (Evil) given that Evil isn't a school of magic.

Thanks for reminding me i totally forgot..... :smallfrown:


Everything else seems to fit, given that you will sensibly keep Kno: Arcana and Spellcraft (the other two prerequisites) at maximum skill ranks anyways. Why do you have so many metamagic feats, though? There is no way you'll be able to apply them all to your spells.

The reason for Metamagic feats is for options for certain spells I would like certain metamagic feats to apply to them. Basically furthering your toolbox of stuff. I may be spreading thin but I can always just cut back if needed. Personally the only I dont know which feats to get rid of for the Spell focus and skill focus feats...... :smallfrown:


There is always the option of Divine Metamagic, given that Ur-Priest 2 has Rebuke Undead. DMM will only work with your divine magic, though.

I think I will since my actual Ur-Priest level isn't very high anyway. :smalltongue:


Ok so here is the final build:

Fire Grey Elf:
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Mind bender 1/Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 4

Feats
1: Spell Focus [evil]
Flaw: Twin Spell
Flaw: spell focus [Necromancy]
Wizard: scribe scroll
3: improved initiative
MS: Skill Focus [Spellcraft]
BF: Iron Will (otyugh's hole)
6: Repeat Spell
9: Practiced Spell Caster [Ur-Priest]
12: Quicken Spell
15: Spell Focus [Conjuration]
18: Chain Spell
Archmage 1: Arcane Reach
Archmage 2: Spell-Like Ability: Teleport (-5x2)
Archmage 3: Spell-Like Ability: Time Stop (-5,-9)
Archmage 4: Spell-Like Ability: Quicken Web (-6,-5)

Banned Schools: Evocation/Enchantment

What do you guys think? I chose mind bender over fighter because of the telepathy AND the skill points with it to help with bluff.

New stuff is in bold.

@ Kaervaslol: Not to be rude but then can you explain the abjurant champion class without Arcane Caster/Fighter or some melee class? Can you explain Mystic Theurge without some Arcane/Divine build?

It's pretty easy to explain the story behind the guy. He starts out learning about Arcane magic and their qualities. Adventuring learns from the party fighter how to be more "stalwart" and picks up 1 level in fighter. Through his adventur's and experience with the Gods he learns to abhore them and searchs to find a way to steal their power. In succeeding he turns to the Ur-Priest who confronts him and teaches him their ways. Desperately searching for a way to combine both arts he finds a mystic Theurge to help progress him in his studies of the divine AND arcane. Later when he can no longer learn anymore divine arts he progresses on to master the ways of the arcane through Archmage. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 01:53 PM
Why SF: Conjuration? The best spells in that school don't have a save.

I'd go with Illusion, personally.

2xMachina
2010-06-15, 02:00 PM
Probably Master Spec. Conju.

Part of the price of that is the worthless Spell focus: Conju.

Os1ris09
2010-06-15, 03:42 PM
Why SF: Conjuration? The best spells in that school don't have a save.

I'd go with Illusion, personally.

I may go with Illusion then. I was just throwing a random SF feat in there since apparently Evil doesn't cut it..... (personally I say BS since some spells have the evil descriptor.)


Probably Master Spec. Conju.

Part of the price of that is the worthless Spell focus: Conju.

No MS is actually necromancer. :smalltongue: I like ray of enfeeblement and exhaustion. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-06-15, 04:56 PM
There are a decent number of Conjourations that have saves. Glitterdust and Grease both do. All of the 4th level Orbs do. Freezing Fog and Cloudkill do. Stun Ray does.

Sure, EBT, Solid Fog, ANYTHING involving Teleportation (outside of Baleful Transposition), and anything involving the entire Summoning and Calling subschools don't, but there is still enough potent bang for your spell focus buck.

Just sayin.

Os1ris09
2010-06-15, 06:17 PM
There are a decent number of Conjourations that have saves. Glitterdust and Grease both do. All of the 4th level Orbs do. Freezing Fog and Cloudkill do. Stun Ray does.

Sure, EBT, Solid Fog, ANYTHING involving Teleportation (outside of Baleful Transposition), and anything involving the entire Summoning and Calling subschools don't, but there is still enough potent bang for your spell focus buck.

Just sayin.

So what would be better in retrospect for a person who is focusing on using the Ur-Priest Spells to buff the party and the Arcane Spells to De-Buff the enemy? Would Conjuration be better or would some other class other than necromancy be better?

PId6
2010-06-15, 06:22 PM
So what would be better in retrospect for a person who is focusing on using the Ur-Priest Spells to buff the party and the Arcane Spells to De-Buff the enemy? Would Conjuration be better or would some other class other than necromancy be better?
IMO the whole point of necromancy is that it doesn't allow saves. Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion, Shivering Touch; none of the best necromancy spells allow saves. You're better off switching that Spell Focus than switching Conjuration (and not specializing in Necromancy, for that matter, since other schools are better).

Os1ris09
2010-06-15, 06:25 PM
IMO the whole point of necromancy is that it doesn't allow saves. Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion, Shivering Touch; none of the best necromancy spells allow saves. You're better off switching that Spell Focus than switching Conjuration (and not specializing in Necromancy, for that matter, since other schools are better).

Which school would you chose then, since your banning evocation AND enchantment. I think conjuration and illusion may do well. Abjuration doesn't seem to have alot of save or suck effects and necromany as you pointed out doesn't have alot of save spells.

PId6
2010-06-15, 06:32 PM
Which school would you chose then, since your banning evocation AND enchantment. I think conjuration and illusion may do well. Abjuration doesn't seem to have alot of save or suck effects and necromany as you pointed out doesn't have alot of save spells.
Abjuration does have Maw of Chaos, but yeah, overall Illusion is probably better in the absence of Enchantment. Transmutation isn't terrible either; Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate, and Slow are all good Transmutation-based save spells, while Illusion's only good save-allowing spells at higher levels tend to be Shadow spells (which are decent). Transmutation's list for those isn't huge, but it is still a pretty good one.

Os1ris09
2010-06-16, 12:21 AM
Ok. So I am going to go Transmutation and Conjuration.