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Rasman
2010-06-13, 09:38 PM
as of late, our gaming group has been taking all these old AD&D premades and converting them to Pathfinder and running them, our DM is getting frusterated with the fact that some of the part is SO cheesed that he can't do anything to them, so for the next campaign, he's going to limit us to just Core so said members can't "cheese" their characters.

We have taken this as a challenge.

That being said, using ONLY the core Pathfinder rules, how and what would you cheese?

Milskidasith
2010-06-13, 09:40 PM
Fighting with the DM is pointless and you shouldn't do it. It's a good way to lose friends and/or a DM.

SilveryCord
2010-06-13, 10:02 PM
If your goal is to make characters that have really high numbers attached to them, why not just play a videogame?

erikun
2010-06-13, 10:02 PM
Candle of Invocation > Gate > Solar > Trippyverse

That way, the DM can smack you upside the head, take away your character, and force you to make something reasonable for the game without wasting time. You even get a fun, endless BBEG to fight!

Jarian
2010-06-13, 10:04 PM
Personally, I find being limited to core boring. If it were me, I'd try to reach an agreement with the DM to tone down the optimization so everyone can have fun without being restricted to a single source.

If that's not an option, for the love of all that is holy, don't start an arms race with your DM. It only ends poorly. Just accept that you pushed him too far and create a core character as a penance.

Eloi
2010-06-13, 10:08 PM
Why annoy your DM? I don't see how they (or you) have fun that way. But I do believe Pathfinder is pretty well-uncheesed. Suggestions for your DM:

1) Level cap at 12.
2) No magic items.
3) Only Tier 3 Core Base Classes
4) Only Core Races.
5) No Multiclassing, templates, or half-breeds.

That should make your game very uncheesy.

Rasman
2010-06-13, 10:09 PM
Fighting with the DM is pointless and you shouldn't do it. It's a good way to lose friends and/or a DM.

we're not exactly "fighting" with the DM, we're just taking it as a Challege because he doesn't believe you can Cheese a character using only Core Rules

i.e. he doesn't like it when we build effective characters, something about Clerics not supposed to be being able to tank like a Fighter...yatta yatta...

I will give him this though, the Wizard is the cheesiest cheese of all cheese land, but that's beside the point...

AlterForm
2010-06-13, 10:10 PM
I'll agree with the others; an optimization arms race is a bad thing. That said, I feel like being an enabler.

Take this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19862850/The_Final_3.5_Project:_Destroying_the_Core&post_num=8). See what still works in Pathfinder. Done and done.

Teron
2010-06-13, 10:15 PM
Why annoy your DM? I don't see how they (or you) have fun that way. But I do believe Pathfinder is pretty well-uncheesed. Suggestions for your DM:

1) Level cap at 12.
2) No magic items.
3) Only Tier 3 Core Base Classes
4) Only Core Races.
5) No Multiclassing, templates, or half-breeds.

That should make your game very uncheesy.
Please tell me that's a joke. This may just be the most boring game ever conceived, short of making the players watch while you run a full party of DMPCs.

druid91
2010-06-13, 10:17 PM
Telling someone not to rib their friends is kinda pointless. though I wouldn't take a cheesed out character to actually play with though, make one good average character, then make some core only cheese explosion,make them as similar in roles as possible, then hand him the cheesy sheet when he asks to see your character, wait for a horrified expression then hand him the real sheet.

JonestheSpy
2010-06-13, 10:19 PM
Wait, I want to know what AD&D character you used that translated into to cheese for Path? I mean, generally 1st edition PC's were far lower powered.

erikun
2010-06-13, 10:20 PM
we're not exactly "fighting" with the DM, we're just taking it as a Challege because he doesn't believe you can Cheese a character using only Core Rules
Druid. Natural Spell. Give some armor to your animal companion (I'm not sure which are the best from core) and spend all day as a spellcasting hummingbird.

Wizard, focused on save-or-lose, summoning, and polymorph. You can start getting infinite wealth/wishes when you hit the right level. Heck, the Adept (NPC class) can probably do quite well in just the save-or-lose category.

I seem to recall a Commoner build using Battletitans, but I don't know how much of that is non-core.

Eloi
2010-06-13, 10:21 PM
Please tell me that's a joke. This may just be the most boring game ever conceived, short of making the players watch while you run a full party of DMPCs.

Well that's the boring beige extremes the DM would be forced to if they keep trying to pull cheese.

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 10:22 PM
Wait, I want to know what AD&D character you used that translated into to cheese for Path? I mean, generally 1st edition PC's were far lower powered.

I think he means they have converted premade adventures for use in PF.

NotScaryBats
2010-06-13, 10:29 PM
I think that's a funny idea, but as to the people saying that having an unoptimized character is boring, I have to disagree. You don't have to be a superman to have fun roleplaying, and if you are used to always being way twinked, it might even be a nice change of pace to force you to think things through better, etc.
"Oh hey, I can't just kill this entire room of guys, maybe I should try some other tactic."
Just my two cents.

balistafreak
2010-06-13, 10:46 PM
I think that's a funny idea, but as to the people saying that having an unoptimized character is boring, I have to disagree. You don't have to be a superman to have fun roleplaying, and if you are used to always being way twinked, it might even be a nice change of pace to force you to think things through better, etc.
"Oh hey, I can't just kill this entire room of guys, maybe I should try some other tactic."
Just my two cents.

In b4 Stormwind Fallacy? (Correct me if this isn't it, and I'm stupid. :smalltongue:)

There's optimizing for raw numbers (+>9000 to damage through Shock Trooper ubercharging) and then there's optimizing for versatility (Batman!). Optimizing =!= twinking.

An optimized character is one that lets me accomplish lots of different things without feeling like I'm severely lacking in an area I'm supposed to be good at. I can have a character who competently fights in melee, buffs up the party, and woos the innkeeper's daughter in his offtime. He doesn't smash Battletitans in one blow, turn us all into CoDzillas, and Diplomance the pants off of everyone he sees, he just is a multi-faceted, accomplished character.

Compare to the ever-constant example of the "unoptimized Fighter" who at best can hit things. And then hit them some more. Without options, I have no mechanical way to do anything meaningful outside of hitting things. And if your DM is kind enough to let you woo the innkeeper's daughter with nary a rank in social skills and a Charisma of 6, I'm calling BS.

Options are good. They let you truly roleplay and have fun.

Eloi
2010-06-13, 10:50 PM
Options are good. They let you truly roleplay and have fun.
But the stated goal of the thread was to work around the new rules the DM provided because he was frustrated with the abuse of the previous ones IIRC, I'm not sure if that exactly applies to this case.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-13, 10:56 PM
Why annoy your DM? I don't see how they (or you) have fun that way. But I do believe Pathfinder is pretty well-uncheesed. Suggestions for your DM:

1) Level cap at 12.
2) No magic items.
3) Only Tier 3 Core Base Classes
4) Only Core Races.
5) No Multiclassing, templates, or half-breeds.

That should make your game very uncheesy.

So, an entire party of completely broke bards who are pretty much identical? Sounds like fun!

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-13, 11:00 PM
Well, I don't know too much about Pathfinder, so I wouldn't be able to give much advice on this, other than to see if SRD material is around. Cloistered Clerics can be fun, even without non-SRD content...

BTW, Persist is SRD

PId6
2010-06-13, 11:10 PM
So, an entire party of completely broke bards who are pretty much identical? Sounds like fun!
Yep. Now everyone pick a type for your Dragonfire Inspiration!

balistafreak
2010-06-13, 11:22 PM
Yep. Now everyone pick a type for your Dragonfire Inspiration!

Earth! Fire! Wind! Water! Heart!

GO PLANET!

Fire! Cold! Acid! Lightning! Sonic! Force!

GO EXTRA ELEMENTAL DAMAGE!

(Am I forgetting any of them?) :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-06-13, 11:33 PM
Can't pick Force unfortunately; doesn't count as energy damage. There's always the regular non-DFI Inspire Courage though.

Rasman
2010-06-14, 01:47 AM
Telling someone not to rib their friends is kinda pointless. though I wouldn't take a cheesed out character to actually play with though, make one good average character, then make some core only cheese explosion,make them as similar in roles as possible, then hand him the cheesy sheet when he asks to see your character, wait for a horrified expression then hand him the real sheet.

I actually might do this...it seems...awesome...


Wait, I want to know what AD&D character you used that translated into to cheese for Path? I mean, generally 1st edition PC's were far lower powered.

nah, it's an AD&D Campaign, but it's got some pretty sick creatures in it


I think that's a funny idea, but as to the people saying that having an unoptimized character is boring, I have to disagree. You don't have to be a superman to have fun roleplaying, and if you are used to always being way twinked, it might even be a nice change of pace to force you to think things through better, etc.
"Oh hey, I can't just kill this entire room of guys, maybe I should try some other tactic."
Just my two cents.

I actually prefer playing a concept rather than a Twink, but doing awesome things is nice some times. I mean, I think I'm the only person that thought I was serious when I told them I wanted to play a Grappler Monk for my first Character.


Druid. Natural Spell. Give some armor to your animal companion (I'm not sure which are the best from core) and spend all day as a spellcasting hummingbird.

Wizard, focused on save-or-lose, summoning, and polymorph. You can start getting infinite wealth/wishes when you hit the right level. Heck, the Adept (NPC class) can probably do quite well in just the save-or-lose category.

I seem to recall a Commoner build using Battletitans, but I don't know how much of that is non-core.

I actually might do the Druid, even though it was the only class in Pathfinder that got nerfed. Although, a Ranger would be nice as well considering the next campaign is based around Giants...

Swok
2010-06-14, 02:06 AM
Arcane Apotheosis (Ex): At 20th level, your body surges with arcane power. You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots. Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.

Made quite insane if luck blades are considered charged items.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-14, 03:40 AM
If your goal is to make characters that have really high numbers attached to them, why not just play a videogame?

Because videogames have caps.

And, you know, are entirely different from games where the DM can just go "Okay, yeah, let's go with that".

PId6
2010-06-14, 03:42 AM
Because videogames have caps.
I know! I always get so tired of that 9999 damage cap; use more digits dammit!

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-14, 03:46 AM
I know! I always get so tired of that 9999 damage cap; use more digits dammit!

Fun fact: in most of the Final Fantasy games until 8, even though the game couldn't show more than 9999 damage, you could still deal more than 9999 damage...

The real cap was 65,025 or something. Go over that and it wraps around to 0...

PId6
2010-06-14, 03:55 AM
The real cap was 65,025 or something. Go over that and it wraps around to 0...
Wow, that's a great anti-munchkin rule right there: deal more than a certain amount of damage and it wraps back to 0.

Accersitus
2010-06-14, 06:34 AM
Fun fact: in most of the Final Fantasy games until 8, even though the game couldn't show more than 9999 damage, you could still deal more than 9999 damage...

The real cap was 65,025 or something. Go over that and it wraps around to 0...

Cap was most likely 65,535 (the limit of the unsigned short int datatype, or 2 Bytes).

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-14, 06:39 AM
Cap was most likely 65,535 (the limit of the unsigned short int datatype, or 2 Bytes).

That sounds probable.

Eldan
2010-06-14, 06:43 AM
I would recommend the following:

Talk to your DM. Show him some of the threads on here, make an example character using only core, show him just how broken you could make things using only core. Explain to him the candle of Invocation, Wish abuse, Gate-chains and a few of the worst low-level tricks. Show him how the economy can be utterly broken with Fabricate or Major Creation.

But don't do it in the actual game.

After you've shown the DM just how cheesy things could get, tell him that you should instead agree on a certain power level. Make new characters, then sit together, as a group, and have a look over them. Discuss what each of you thinks is overpowered, and work around that, until everyone is happy with all characters. That may take a while, especially if some players are borderline munchkins.

But it works. "Niener-niener, I have the strongest character and kill your game now!" doesn't. Ever.

erikun
2010-06-14, 11:35 AM
Fun fact: in most of the Final Fantasy games until 8, even though the game couldn't show more than 9999 damage, you could still deal more than 9999 damage...

The real cap was 65,025 or something. Go over that and it wraps around to 0...
I know that this isn't the case in Final Fantasy VI (SNES). I had several characters at level 99, dealing 9999 damage with any attack, yet everything died in the same number of hits, regardless of what attack was used. I specifically recall that the final form of Kefka had 79,992 + 1 HP (most likely 80,000 HP) because he could always take eight hits for 9999 damage, then would always die to the ninth.

Jan Mattys
2010-06-14, 11:42 AM
I would recommend the following:

Talk to your DM. Show him some of the threads on here, make an example character using only core, show him just how broken you could make things using only core. Explain to him the candle of Invocation, Wish abuse, Gate-chains and a few of the worst low-level tricks. Show him how the economy can be utterly broken with Fabricate or Major Creation.

But don't do it in the actual game.

After you've shown the DM just how cheesy things could get, tell him that you should instead agree on a certain power level. Make new characters, then sit together, as a group, and have a look over them. Discuss what each of you thinks is overpowered, and work around that, until everyone is happy with all characters. That may take a while, especially if some players are borderline munchkins.

But it works. "Niener-niener, I have the strongest character and kill your game now!" doesn't. Ever.

Nice try, really.

But I think that the kind of players more likely to listen to your sound advice are exactly the kind of players who wouldn't find themselves stuck in a game with core-only options due to their DM going insane from cheese poisoning.

I think you're talking to the wrong audience :smallfrown:

Person_Man
2010-06-14, 11:47 AM
Play a sorcerer (which got a big buff in Pathfinder) or wizard. Pick abusive spells which Pathfinder didn't nerf. Then use them. But use them sparingly. You can still be a demigod. Just don't be a jerk about it. When your life isn't in serious danger, whip out the crossbow and let the other classes have fun. When you seriously "need" to win, cast Solid Fog or Polymorph or whatnot and take your turn in the spotlight.