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Meta
2010-06-14, 12:03 AM
Looking for some creative ideas to work into my avenger. Bad news first, things that cannot be changed:

Race (and yes im a tiefling for RP reasons with +2 to dex and wis, besides the stats boosts everything else is legal)
Class
PP (i know ardent champion would be PERFECT but Roleplay > Rollplay)
Epic Destiny

We started at level 1 and are now 11, retraining is of course an option, and without further ado:

Avenger/Favored Soul/Soul of the World

Languages: Common, Supernal (polyglot gem), Primordial

Race: Tiefling (sorta)

Trained Skills: Perception, Acrobatics, Stealth, and Religion
+2 racial bonus in Bluff and Stealth

Powers by Level

1: Angelic Alacrity
1: Oath of the Final Duel
2: Refocus Enmity
3: Sequestering Strike
5: Executionerís Cloak
6: Oath of the Relentless Hunter
7: Inexorable Pursuit
9: Blade of Repulsion
10: Leading Step ĖAgile Escape at 24
11: Radiant Rush
12: Wings of Angels
13: Weaving Blades replaces Angelic Alacrity
15: Temple of Brilliance Ė Snarling Wolf Stance at level 25
16: Vengeful Revenant
17: Ready the Final Blow replaces Weaving Blades Ė Off-Hand Diversion at level 26
19: Vengeful Recovery replaces Blade of Repulsion
20: Celestial Skirmish replaces Oath of the Final Duel
22: Ghostly Vengeance
23: Bond of Justice replaces Sequestering Strike
25: Tigerís Reflex replaces Executionerís Cloak
26: Past Life Manifestation
27: Death Rend replaces Inexorable Pursuit
29: Follow-Up Blow replaces Vengeful Recovery

Final Powers:

Encounter: Death Rend, Bond of Justice, Off-Hand Diversion, Radiant Rush
Daily: Follow-Up Blow, Tigerís Reflex, Celestial Skirmish, Snarling Wolf Stance
Utilities: Refocus Enmity, Ghostly Vengeance, Vengeful Revenant, Agile Escape, Oath of the Relentless Hunter, Wings of Angels, Past Life Manifestation


Stats: Add to DEX/WIS every time: they end up being 26/28 (+8/+9)

Additional Projected Feats:

1: Weapon Focus Heavy Blades
2: Full blade Proficiency
4: Improved Armor of Faith
6: Power of Skill
8: Unarmored Agility
10: Deva Heritage
11: Painful Oath
12: Two-Blade Warrior (Bastard sword proficiency replaced Full blade proficiency)
14: Two Weapon Fighting
16: Two Weapon Opening
18: Paragon Defenses
20: Nerathan High Blade Student
21: Hand of Divine Guidance (Githzerai Blade Mastery replaces Weapon Focus)
22: Nerathan High Blade Duelist (Paragon Defenses becomes Robust Defenses)
24: Dual Manifestation (Extra Manifestation replaces Weapon Proficiency Bastard sword)
26: Shocking Flame
28: Slashing Storm
30:


Magic Items (some owned, others on the wish list)
Rending Bastard Swords
Sanguine Vestments (surely can find something better but I enjoy this fluff for now)
Unknown Neck Slot
Boots of Quickness
Iron Armbands of Power
Great Heroís Gauntlets
Shadow Band (daily)
Ring of the Radiant Storm (daily)
Crown of the Brilliant Sun
Diamond Cincture
Stone of Flame (daily) (every party member has one)
Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth
Polyglot gem Supernal

What I'm Looking For: I've done a pretty fair job optimizing, but have your hand at making it superior with the restrictions in place, aside from the areas I have blank or am looking for suggestions in. Namely Neck and Armor slot, last feat, etc. But if you have a good idea that involves me changing a few things, lets discuss it!

Mando Knight
2010-06-14, 12:18 AM
...You're spending a lot for two-weapon feats, when your basic attack is horribly weak and you're getting barely any more damage out of them than you would by sticking with Fullblade instead and grabbing Hunter's Quarry boosts instead of TWF boosts. (Unless, of course, I'm missing something)

You're also missing Versatile Expertise, which is basically the most universally useful feat in the game, especially when it's a free +3 to every attack instead of just a +1.

Meta
2010-06-14, 01:09 AM
...You're spending a lot for two-weapon feats, when your basic attack is horribly weak and you're getting barely any more damage out of them than you would by sticking with Fullblade instead and grabbing Hunter's Quarry boosts instead of TWF boosts. (Unless, of course, I'm missing something)

You're also missing Versatile Expertise, which is basically the most universally useful feat in the game, especially when it's a free +3 to every attack instead of just a +1.

Versatile Expertise is free in this campaign apologies. And two weapon fighting and thus two weapon opening supplement my rending weapons. With oath and a 19-20 crit range my attacks have a 19% chance of scoring a crit and any crit scored generates 2 MBAs which thus have a chance of critting again, etc. Also my MBA is overwhelming strike thanks to power of skill.

The reason ardent Champion would be perfect btw is further increased crit range and an additional MBA (3rd) on crits.

Two weapon fighting was chosen over fullblade in order to utilize all of those lovely ranger dailies and encounter powers I can power swap for free thanks to soul of the world (in addition to the other reasons I outlined relating to crits)

DragonBaneDM
2010-06-14, 01:18 AM
Wait. Meta has a +2 to Wis and Dex???

cupkeyk
2010-06-14, 01:25 AM
ooooh, did your dm just catch you?

Meta
2010-06-14, 01:31 AM
ooooh, did your dm just catch you?

he's another player. and yes i have the bladeling/elf/githzerai/wilden stats and tiefling racial abilities. most unoptimized but you know i make do :smalltongue:

EDIT: the real issue is why he's not on facebook right now

mobdrazhar
2010-06-14, 05:24 PM
why do you have Dual Minifestation\Extra Manifestation? these are for Genasi

Meta
2010-06-14, 05:52 PM
why do you have Dual Minifestation\Extra Manifestation? these are for Genasi

I am a genasi thanks to my epic destiny

Mando Knight
2010-06-14, 06:17 PM
The Deva Heritage feat doesn't qualify you for Soul of the World. Note that the bloodline feats other than Deva Heritage state deva or deva bloodline.

It also makes sense: a member of a not-deva race with Deva Heritage isn't a deva, just has some deva blood.

On top of that, the manifestation feats don't help a non-genasi, even with Soul of the World... all you get is the one extra encounter power choice.

Meta
2010-06-14, 07:53 PM
The Deva Heritage feat doesn't qualify you for Soul of the World. Note that the bloodline feats other than Deva Heritage state deva or deva bloodline.

It also makes sense: a member of a not-deva race with Deva Heritage isn't a deva, just has some deva blood.

On top of that, the manifestation feats don't help a non-genasi, even with Soul of the World... all you get is the one extra encounter power choice.

Past Spirit (21st level): Choose a race other than
your own. You are considered a member of that race
for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites. If that
race has any racial encounter powers, you gain one of
your choice.

Count as a member of that for meeting feat requirements. I select firesoul encounter power and count as that flavor of genasi for reat requirements (you MUST be an element upon being genasi, there are no vanillas.) and do not gain the benefits of extra reflex and fire resistence as you have unhelpfully pointed out. Fortunately I already have fire res and a good reflex. Since I am a firesoul genasi when counting for feats, I then select a second manifestation. Stormsoul. And dual manifestation so i may manifest stormsoul and firesoul. NOTE: i am only a firesoul in terms of feat selection as you have pointed out. I then select shocking flame, adding extra damage and keywords to my melee attacks. In addition to stormsouls fortitude and lightning res and two racial powers.


And the section right before Deva bloodline feats:

Bloodline Feats
The Deva Heritage feat and related feats are bloodline
feats. All bloodline feats are noted as such in the featís
name. You can have bloodline feats of only one type.
If you choose the Deva Heritage feat, you can have
only Deva Bloodline feats.
If you are a deva, you have a couple of
considerations with regard to bloodline feats. You can
choose Deva Heritage, but you donít need to do so to
access Deva Bloodline feats. Taking Deva Heritage
just means you have focused on your angel heritage,
strengthening its expression. Since devas donít have
deva children, bloodline feats other than Deva
Heritage are hard to come by without a unique story.
Itís ultimately up to the DM whether you, as a deva,
can acquire other bloodline feats.

My avenger is a deva that takes different races when he reincarnates, hence why the epic destiny fits roleplay wise. I would also argue how much deva does one need to be to count as a deva? If your great great great grandfather was a half orc could you not qualify for human feats and paragon paths? because youre not a 'pureblood'? in fact if deva can't have children how on earth do you get 'deva blood' as youve suggested. Must be a special circumstance that the feat suggests, you work out with your DM. In circumstances where the RAW suggests talking with your DM quoting their interpretation in a build suggestion thread is probably not the most useful discussion

Edit: not that your interpretation is invalid, just that considering the feats recommend working with your DM, your opinion is just that: an interpretation

Mando Knight
2010-06-14, 10:01 PM
And the section right before Deva bloodline feats:

Bloodline Feats
The Deva Heritage feat and related feats are bloodline
feats. All bloodline feats are noted as such in the featís
name. You can have bloodline feats of only one type.
If you choose the Deva Heritage feat, you can have
only Deva Bloodline feats.
If you are a deva, you have a couple of
considerations with regard to bloodline feats. You can
choose Deva Heritage, but you donít need to do so to
access Deva Bloodline feats. Taking Deva Heritage
just means you have focused on your angel heritage,
strengthening its expression. Since devas donít have
deva children, bloodline feats other than Deva
Heritage are hard to come by without a unique story.
Itís ultimately up to the DM whether you, as a deva,
can acquire other bloodline feats.

My avenger is a deva that takes different races when he reincarnates, hence why the epic destiny fits roleplay wise. I would also argue how much deva does one need to be to count as a deva? If your great great great grandfather was a half orc could you not qualify for human feats and paragon paths? because youre not a 'pureblood'? in fact if deva can't have children how on earth do you get 'deva blood' as youve suggested. Must be a special circumstance that the feat suggests, you work out with your DM. In circumstances where the RAW suggests talking with your DM quoting their interpretation in a build suggestion thread is probably not the most useful discussion

Edit: not that your interpretation is invalid, just that considering the feats recommend working with your DM, your opinion is just that: an interpretation
No... the recommendation is for any devas using not-Deva Heritage bloodline feats. The section you quoted does not cover qualifying for prerequisites at all. By RAW, taking the feat does not qualify you for feats, paragon paths, or epic destinies with the deva racial prerequisite, but only those that list "deva bloodline" in the prerequisites. Note that the other feats introduced in the same article state "deva or deva bloodline" rather than just "deva." It's not an interpretation, it's RAW.

(Dragon's) Fluff-wise, not-devas with deva bloodlines are mortals with a deva ancestor: devas aren't fully incapable of reproduction, they just can't produce more devas. It's discussed in that exact same article quoted.

Meta
2010-06-14, 10:18 PM
No... the recommendation is for any devas using not-Deva Heritage bloodline feats. The section you quoted does not cover qualifying for prerequisites at all. By RAW, taking the feat does not qualify you for feats, paragon paths, or epic destinies with the deva racial prerequisite, but only those that list "deva bloodline" in the prerequisites. Note that the other feats introduced in the same article state "deva or deva bloodline" rather than just "deva." It's not an interpretation, it's RAW.

(Dragon's) Fluff-wise, not-devas with deva bloodlines are mortals with a deva ancestor: devas aren't fully incapable of reproduction, they just can't produce more devas. It's discussed in that exact same article quoted.

I conceded that your argument has merit in that regard (all of the others being unhelpful and incorrect) but that my character is actually exactly what the epic destiny states, and it was my DM who recommended me take it.

Despite this you seem intent on pursuing this point further? You finally found a ruling you are correct on and that I know is houseruled and i merely take the Deva Heritage feat for fluff and so that I'm not gaining a free feat slot compared to my party members. (And it also makes sense) Perhaps you would like to point out that tieflings don't actually gets a +2 to Dex and Wis also?

"My avenger is a deva that takes different races when he reincarnates, hence why the epic destiny fits roleplay wise"