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TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 11:30 AM
Looking to make:


Beatdown Tripper Monk
10 Levels
Please try to provide books on things that arent PHB 1-2

Trying for Size + Damage.

If it is not possible with VOP that can be removed.

Tripper could be a bad addition to this: Thought the size could help..with the 3.0 Feat I have access to.

Multiclassing allowed.
Can take up to 4 flaws for 4 feats.
*VoP removed.

Try and stay away from Maneuvers.
No SwordSage please.

Marriclay
2010-06-14, 11:32 AM
I know of a monk build built around dishing out damage, but not one based around tripping. also, the fact that he is a monk with VoP is very, very bad. UMD is one of the monk's strongest features, believe it or not

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 11:36 AM
I have access to knock-down from the 3.0 sword and fist.

Emmerask
2010-06-14, 11:39 AM
Does it have to be a pure monk or is multiclassing allowed?

A monk/wu jen/ Enlightened fist might be an interesting build and with the giant size spell you could become a decent tripper :smallbiggrin:

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 11:43 AM
Multiclassing is allowed...anything really. He wants me to stay away from maneuvers...as much as i can. But yes...anything up to 10 is allowed.

Telonius
2010-06-14, 11:45 AM
For Tripping specifically, you'd probably have to go for a Goliath to stand a decent shot of it. The race is from Races of Stone. Its "Powerful Build" feature lets you count as a size category larger than normal.

To get the most out of it, you'll want Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes.

I'll probably be ninja'd by the time I write this, but the general consensus is that an Unarmed Swordsage (from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords) is superior to the Monk class for most purposes.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 11:46 AM
I really wanna stick to monk though. Dont really feel the swordsage, nor want to do that.

Scipio
2010-06-14, 11:46 AM
UMD is one of the monk's strongest features, believe it or not

Monks do not have UMD as a class skill.

Telonius
2010-06-14, 11:47 AM
Monks do not have UMD as a class skill.

Correct. It's still one of their strongest features.

AtopTheMountain
2010-06-14, 11:47 AM
Monks do not have UMD as a class skill.

And the fact that a cross-class skill is still one of their strongest assets probably says something about the class.

EDIT: We're talking about monks, not ninjas!

Curmudgeon
2010-06-14, 11:52 AM
I have access to knock-down from the 3.0 sword and fist.
That's been superseded by the same feat in Deities and Demigods, which has a 3.5 update. The feat is OGC and available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

As for the Vow of Poverty, I strongly suggest waiting on that until after training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide). You'll be able to take 10' steps as well as 5' steps. That's a big tactical advantage, but it's not dependent on magic items after you finish training.

I usually recommend the Invisible Fist alternative class feature (ACF) for Monks; it's in Exemplars of Evil on page 21. You trade evasion for the ability to become invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds; at level 9 you gain the ability to Blink. However, I generally also recommend buying a Ring of Evasion to compensate for the lost class ability.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 11:54 AM
Ill look into that. VoP seems to be coming up as a bad idea all around.

VoP removed.

Gnaeus
2010-06-14, 11:57 AM
For Tripping specifically, you'd probably have to go for a Goliath to stand a decent shot of it.

You are really better going for something that will just let you enlarge yourself.

Monk 2 (or 1), Psychic Warrior 8 (talashtora good, but not strictly necessary) w/ Expansion.

Or Monk 2, Cleric 4, Sacred Fist w/ strength domain.

Or Emerrask's Enlightened fist suggestion.

Or Monk 1 (or 2) rest Druid (My personal favorite! Best core monk build!)

Anything over monk 2 is really playing with fire (and not in a good way)

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 11:58 AM
If I am correct...enlarging yourself effectively increases the unarmed damage right? So all I need to do is get the biggest I can get. Thats what im trying to achieve here. I need the quickets 10 route to there.

Gnaeus
2010-06-14, 12:00 PM
If I am correct...enlarging yourself effectively increases the unarmed damage right?

Yes, but also adds reach and strength and it gives a +4 trip/grapple mod per size category.

The quickest route to there involves goliath, or potions of enlarge person.

The most EFFECTIVE route to there lets you grow by more than one size category. Thus, Psionics (expansion lets you grow 2 categories) Wu Jen (Giant Growth puts you to huge) or Druid (huge wildshape available by level 14 even with a 2 level monk dip, and gives lots of other bonuses.)

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 12:02 PM
So the bigger the monk..the badder the monk. I want to atleast hit the free improved trip feat I think..then switch to something to boost meself. Now please use any and all cheese yall got.

Gnaeus
2010-06-14, 12:05 PM
The free improved trip requires 4 more levels. Much better to keep it to 2 and just take improved trip as a feat.

Psychic Warrior gives bonus feats (which could be improved trip)
Druid doesn't actually need feats (except natural spell).

Taking more than a 2 level dip with a casting/manifesting class really hurts you.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 12:08 PM
Ok, so take it as its own feat. Ok. So psychic warrior is the best way to go for that?

Kylarra
2010-06-14, 12:09 PM
Monk2/PsyWar8 with Tashalatora is probably your best bet thanks to Expansion.

Doc Roc
2010-06-14, 12:09 PM
There's a feat in secrets of sarlona that lets you stack a single selected psionic class for most of the good monk features. It's called Tashalatoran. So, my build would be:

Monk 2/Ardent18
or possibly
Monk 2/Arcent13/Subverted Psion 5 or Body Leech 5

But you'd definitely be okay as:

Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18

But due to dominant ideal and the power swap ACF, Ardent's really great here because you're two levels away from basically the only meta-psionic booster in the game.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-14, 12:10 PM
If I am correct...enlarging yourself effectively increases the unarmed damage right? So all I need to do is get the biggest I can get.
Do note that this approach comes with severe drawbacks. Standard 8' ceilings mean you'll be subject to the squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) penalties (double movement cost, -4 to attack, -4 to AC) if you're Large size; if you're bigger than that you won't be able to enter the space at all without using the Escape Artist skill. So this is where being a Goliath with powerful build is superior to actual Large size.

For an effective tripping approach, I recommend the spiked chain and Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium, pages 138-139). You'd be constantly treated as having any 2-handed weapon set against a charge.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 12:10 PM
Definately gonna need some books to look through. Ill look up the warrior issue with that feat your talking about. Expanded for both?

Doc Roc
2010-06-14, 12:14 PM
Definately gonna need some books to look through. Ill look up the warrior issue with that feat your talking about. Expanded for both?

I disagree with crum about the whole OMG-why-for large bit. Being bigger is generally better in D&D, particularly if you're doing it by manifesting expansion... Why? Because if it's not going to help, you just don't manifest it. It's that simple.

Gnaeus
2010-06-14, 12:14 PM
Ok, so take it as its own feat. Ok. So psychic warrior is the best way to go for that?

It is a good way to go. Any of the suggestions listed will get you to a good place. Druid or Cleric or Psy War all give lots of wisdom synergy. Wu Jen is basically wizard, and wizards have their own cheese. There is also love to be had in Tome of Magic, and Talashtora with Ardent, but those both require more books, and someone else would have to explain them, because I only know the theory.

Edit: Thanks Doc. I knew someone would get there.

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 12:18 PM
Ok, so take it as its own feat. Ok. So psychic warrior is the best way to go for that?

Note the alternative Monk Fighting Styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les); you can mix and match opening up a large variety of feats including prerequisiteless Improved Trip on level 2. I suggest using that.

And Sacred Fist is very good; Cleric can learn Polymorph (and DMM Persist Draconic Polymorph) and eventually Miracle for Giant Size. Though early on you're stuck with Enlarge Person and later on with Righteous Might. Though what Doc Roc said goes too; Ardent or Psy War are excellent. Spell-domain [SC] is a good choice to go with Strength. Monks are mystical anyways. And as Strength mostly provides early Enlarge Person, if you're going for a higher level, you can afford to go without it.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 12:25 PM
Im going 2 monk/8 Psychic Warrior


Anyone Got feat lists and such or items i need to go for quickly or some combo of anything I really need to know?

Gnaeus
2010-06-14, 12:27 PM
All these builds are close enough to each other in general cheese/power level that the determining factor will be what you and your DM like and are comfortable with. Me? I like the druid, which has the advantage of being core, but some people hate Wildshape. The psionic route is strong, but some people don't like psionics. The cleric is good too. look at them all and play what you like.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 12:34 PM
the psychic warrior looks interesting and quite potent. It also lets me have glowing eyes..woots...

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 12:42 PM
Practiced Manifester [CPsi] is good, as is Psicrystal Affinity > Psicrystal Containment. You obviously want Combat Reflexes and your Monk-levels probably provide you with Improved Trip and perhaps Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple. You'll definitely want Psionic Meditation and Linked Power [CPsi]. Consider Overchannel and Talented. Also consider Standstill for the really aggressive deers.

Monastic Training [Secrets of Sarlona] > Tashalatora [Secrets of Sarlona] allows you to stack your relevant Monk-abilities with Psychic Warrior so definitely pick those up if available (Monastic Training just means you can freely multiclass with Monk and Psy War but it's a prerequisite for Tashalatora). And once you get 5th level powers (level 15 in your case), consider Expanded Knowledge: Schism and Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphosis.


Feats without book marked after them are from SRD.

Faleldir
2010-06-14, 01:17 PM
That's been superseded by the same feat in Deities and Demigods, which has a 3.5 update.
Try to convince your DM that the S&F errata does not apply to the new version of the feat. If it was meant to carry over to 3.5, it would be part of the text.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 01:20 PM
Ok ill try to convince him. Yeah, thinking it to be a good idea to take some psionic feats along with the boost that Im getting to size.

any items that will boost? including book/cost?

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 01:33 PM
Ok ill try to convince him. Yeah, thinking it to be a good idea to take some psionic feats along with the boost that Im getting to size.

any items that will boost? including book/cost?

Armbands of Might [MiC] give you +2 to Strength-checks. Pretty obvious to get. Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) [Savage Species] on your Unarmed Strike with the Sweeping property [MiC] is +2 to Trip-checks.

Helm of Battle [MiC] is +2 3/day, but as it takes Swift Action, you probably won't use it that much since those are mostly used to manifest Powers like Hustle or Psionic Dimension Door with Linked Power. It's only 2000gp though; give it due consideration. Brute Gauntlets [MiC] are another similar item, but even cheaper. Third Eye Surge [MiC] is yet another item with similar uses, and yet another bonus type. Torc of the Titans [MiC] is probably the most worthwhile, giving you +5. But again, takes an action so meh. Only get one of these, if any; you can only activate one per round anyways.


Belt of the Champion [MiC] is a Kord's relic that gives you +5 Competence to Strength-checks so if you happen to worship Kord, invest a feat in True Believer and pick up one of those. +5 is a lot.

For other items, Arrows with the Manifester-property [MiC; SRD version is even more overpriced] only cost 1/50th of the market price making them actually relatively affordable, and a decent source of extra Power Points. Torc of Power Preservation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#torcofPowerPreservation) is incredible (the MiC-update less so) and something you definitely want once you can get it. Don't forget that as a manifester, you can just pick Craft Universal Item and craft many of these yourself.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 01:49 PM
Ok, what about monks belt? or anything along those lines? any other size increasers?

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 02:14 PM
Ok, what about monks belt? or anything along those lines? any other size increasers?

If you're a Monk, a Monk's Belt and a Monk's Tattoo [Magic of Faerun] are always quite nice, and you can benefit of the Sparring Dummy of the Master [Arms & Equipment Guide]. Size increases for damage though? Well, there's...if you go Kalashtar as your race, you can use Ectoplasmic Fist Shard [Eberron Campaign Settings] and Fanged Ring [Dragon Magic], though the latter won't stack with any possible Improved Natural Attack-feats you pick up.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 02:16 PM
Ok. Thank you guys for the help...still reading up on all of this..ill check back for any other idea/suggestions..so far 2Monk/8 Psionic Warrior

Marriclay
2010-06-14, 02:49 PM
don't forget! your unarmed strikes are considered to be a natural attack as well as a manufactured one - that means they can benefit from improved natural weapon

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 03:13 PM
Do my fists count as a melee weapon?

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 03:52 PM
Do my fists count as a melee weapon?

Your Unarmed Strikes do. It's more than fists; headbutts, knees, kicks, et cetera.

Merk
2010-06-14, 04:01 PM
I don't think this has yet been mentioned -- the UA Passive Way Monk variant trades out your level 1 and 2 bonus feats for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, which allows you to free up a couple of feat slots.

So something like Passive Way Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 8.

If you for some reason wanted to remain a purely martial build, you could do Goliath PW Monk 2 / Barbarian 7 with the racial substitutions for Goliath that make you Large when you rage. (Monk / Barbarian is legal IIRC, you just have to stop being lawful after monk 2).

Hague
2010-06-14, 04:03 PM
Half-giants are psionically innate gaining 2 PP. They have the same racial feature (Powerful Build) as Goliaths, +2 to saves against fire and heat, +2 str, +2 con and -2 dex. Their favored class is Psionic Warrior, which makes them a decent choice for this build. Also, they can Stomp once a day which is a non-lethal knock-down psionic attack that hits in a 20 ft cone. Unfortunately, the level adjustment is +1 so that may color your opinion somewhat.

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 04:08 PM
I don't think this has yet been mentioned -- the UA Passive Way Monk variant trades out your level 1 and 2 bonus feats for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, which allows you to free up a couple of feat slots.

So something like Passive Way Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 8.

It has, and you're allowed to mix the styles (just see the text), so you shouldn't bother picking up Combat Expertise unless you really want the ability.

Flickerdart
2010-06-14, 04:40 PM
Consider some of the alternate Monks from Dragon Magazine. Some of them get stuff like Rage instead of Flurry, which will be more useful for your ends.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 04:48 PM
Rage will give more overall damage than flurry?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-14, 04:54 PM
Flurry might bring higher returns if you're... Colossal.

Wait, you can't manifest while raging, can you? That would be a big damper on rage.

Flickerdart
2010-06-14, 05:01 PM
Rage will give more overall damage than flurry?
Rage gives you STR, which helps with tripping. Flurry gives you extra opportunities to miss, which doesn't.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 05:20 PM
I can enlarge myself then rage correct? and notlose the benefits?

Flickerdart
2010-06-14, 05:32 PM
Yep. You don't lose previous buffs when you Rage - you just can't cast spells and such while Raging.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 05:34 PM
Seems like a better trade off- its only Flurry for Rage right? and where can i find this....

Flickerdart
2010-06-14, 05:38 PM
Dragon Magazine 310, p45. The same issue has the Martial Monk (lose a skill point for Intimidate and choosing bonus feats from the Fighter list). The Broken Fist discipline (Dragon Mag 309) allows you to be treated as a size category larger when involved in a trip.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 06:48 PM
It looks pretty good.
thanks

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 06:53 PM
Rage gives you STR, which helps with tripping. Flurry gives you extra opportunities to miss, which doesn't.

Between Trip and powers (Offensive Precognition, Metaphysical Weapon, Strength of My Enemy, etc.), I don't think you should be missing much anymore...

Flurry is very potent in a Psy War chassis with Tashalatora advancing it fully and each of your attacks benefitting of the huge damage dice the combination of Monk UA Progression and powers provides, and the huge Strength you can generate with powers.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-14, 07:03 PM
Ok so stick with the basis and grab some items.

Heh...wasnt sure if it was worth it..but it aint bad.