MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 140 pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous two) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with this first post, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) is copyrighted 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
What is probably the most common misconception about Rich's words in this thread is the following: "It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.

Start of Darkness Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RedCloak and his brother) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's First look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"


Section 1b: Other Info
Legal IssuesMany of the ideas presented in the thread have the same base problem: they are Intellectual Property of a company, and they have not been released to the general public. An author - particularly one selling books for money - may only make use of such creatures under Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) guidelines, the most relevant of which is Parody, since it is the one used (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html) by Rich. So long as he makes a joke out of it, Rich can use protected intellectual properties, and he has in a few occasions. However, there would be no fair use in taking a Protected character like, say, Mickey Mouse, and making him one of the main antagonists of the comic. Instead, if discovered, Rich could end in a whole lot of legal trouble, and thus it is very unlikely he would use such character.
It has been argued that Rich could also get away with copyright infringement under the "added value" clause that allows the use of a copyrighted creation if the creation is developed in a new way (see the Obama "Hope (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/2231258092_43d8e672b5.jpg)" poster, which was based on an AP photograph). This would not apply, as far as we can tell, to trademarked creations.

Please note that at no point has an IP lawyer commented on this issue, and as such it may be wrong.
The Escape
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges.
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subejcts of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is, however, no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)



Section 1c: Useful Links

Every single MitD Strip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6259526&postcount=68) (probably not being maintained)
lothos' explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR




Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1b SoD Cannon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
BodyRedCloak suggest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. He also leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker). The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other.
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html).


MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesnt' affect the public until after he is lighted up.
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large).
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries)
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)
RedCloak was able to lift him and his box onto a wagon in SoD
Due to RedCloak's likely build (spell-oriented cleric), this can be disregarded as a clue, since it is entirely possible that RC isn't strong enough to lift even the empty box, never mind MitD's weight inside (unless MitD is buoyant).

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into Account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into Account:

It could indicate piercing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense.

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has all the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into Account:

Difficulties with the teleportation spell can be waved away by Plot Requirement, or by suggesting MitD's box has a Dimensional Anchor (which can be read to not stop the spell, only the caster). Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it is used offensively in OotS, although never successfully due to saving throws)
It has been pointed out that if it where a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not a spell-like ability or supernatural ability). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
However:

MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
Speechthe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes

ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.

Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following:
- NOT a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
- NOT Elemental (has a body)
- NOT Ooze (has a body)
- NOT Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Challenge RatingRich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).
Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon (and one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" by another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters and RedCloak (see Section 1a) have claimed to know what he is, while what looks like a wizard in the circus audience admitted he'd never seen anything like it. MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.

Section 2d: AugmentationA number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed.

Templated/Mixed lineage CreatureA whole range of possibilities, it suggests MitD is a stack of Templates rather than a specific monster type.
Pros: Can be templated to have:

Teleportation
Psionics
Earthquake
Unnerving Gaze

Cons:

No Wish template
Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these"
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents

Proposed combinations:

half giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")
ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible



Section 3: Proposed Ideas
Section 3a: ForerunnersThis category groups ideas that fit the "big 3" scenes of MitD: the circus scene (particularly the requirement to both be a circus act where nothing is done, and the varied response from the public), the tower scene (that is, the ability to punch a person and a horse through a wall when trying to "hit light") and the escape scene (i.e. teleportation of O'Chul and V). The proposals may still have other objections (such as size problems, or simply that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D), but must NOT belong to the discarded categories (see Section 2c: Categories), unless they are somehow exceptional (e.g. an undead that eats burgers and sleeps).

Dread LinnormPros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm)Pros:

Great strength (53)
teleportation (plane shift) abilities
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Has no languages, thus being surprising it can talk.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature.
it's powers are psionic-based (see 2b Psionics).
It's constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)


Note: it has been suggested that, if it is psionic, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, laking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes

SlaadWhite/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk. Unless, that is, slaads usually talk like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) (but this is probably Rule of Funny)


Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Discarded Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that discards them. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
TarrasqueTarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.
Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite, nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would now, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"


Section 3c: Copyrighted Ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9623845&postcount=910)

Section 3d: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all 3 major MitD scenes (circus; tower; escape. See 3a)

AnaximConstruct, no teleportation.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 26, greater barghest is a mere 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


AtropalUndead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
BraxatNot particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
CentaurNot strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
Corpse Tearer LinnormStrong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Daoaka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
DragonPros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
Earth ElementalUnstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EnveloperInsufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance.
Ephemeral HangmanPros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Fiendwurmstrong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fifth-Dimensional Imp (from Superman)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but the circus scene and tower scene do not really fit.
FormianTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Genie/Djinnwhile able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Gibbering OrbCan't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before". Not strong enough (CR 5).
GlabrezuPros: Access to wish
Fairly powerful
Cons: Too big
No parent
Unlikely to change morality (since it is a denizen of a morality plane)
Low CR
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm)Too many eyes, and unclear how it accounts for the escape.
Gozilla (& family)Too big, unclear how they account for the escape. Copyright issues possible
GrendelUnclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength, defences, earthquake ability.
Grey Slaadcan teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
Gug(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-NagaAccess to wish, and fairly strong although, being gargantuan, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Psionic powers could explain the earthquake, but not the tower scene.
Half-GiantStrong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accoutns for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire WyrmDragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
IllurienFemale, Insufficient strength
JaberwockyDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jaberwocky is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these".
King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
InfernalImmune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Li Lung (Earth Dragon)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
NabassuNot particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalgguincorporeal
Neo-otyughCan't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare BeastPros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

PhaerimmVery, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar AngelHas cleric levels
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Shadow Dragon
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
SolarCons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

SphinxNot really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Truly Horrid Umber HulkFairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
VasuthantUndead. Can't explain the escape
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm)revolting sight, but can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
WarforgedConstruct
WendigoVery strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
Ygramul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_The_Neverending_Story)Can teleport, but the teleported person dies an hour after the teleportation. Unclear of his strength.
ZodarPros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
The newer version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him

Section 3e: Joke Ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9623845&postcount=910)

Version History
1.0 Up to date to last page of previous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134194) thread
1.2 Up to date to end of page 10
1.4 Up to date to end of page 20
1.6 Up to date to end of page 30
1.8 Up to date to end of page 40

[Acero]

Third time's the charm!

[TriForce]

nice title :P

[Zolkabro]

I'm thinking Slaad, but Snorlax really fits if it weren't for the legal thing. Does anyone know how one could get round that rule?

[Leecros]

I'm thinking Slaad, but Snorlax really fits if it weren't for the legal thing. Does anyone know how one could get round that rule?

call it a Laxsnor and use it in 3 strips and call it a gag.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

call it a Laxsnor and use it in 3 strips and call it a gag.

If it was a gag, it wouldn't need a name change, anymore than the illithid needed one. But MitD is not a gag character, and if it came to lawyers, Rich would not be able to claim parody when MitD has been a straight character throughout the whole comic.

No, there is no way we've been able to think to get around copyright restrictions, not in a comic that is sold for money. Thus why they get a "dump" category.

Grey Wolf

[Onyavar]

Wow, I'm amazed how much consideration and organization is now behind the MitD speculation (long time not visiting these threads). It's a true riddle, keep up solving it!

I'm still likely to suggest Snarl jr., and none of the forerunner suggestions persuaded me, personally. I still interpret Rich's words in the way: "I'm not inventing a new monster for the reveal but instead I planned this since strip 100".

Now you may stone me to death for my heresy.

[EternalMelon]

My Guess?
Teddy Bear.
That's right, Teddy Bear, A giant one too!
EDIT: I have reasons too, quiz me.

[DaggerPen]

Wow, I'm amazed how much consideration and organization is now behind the MitD speculation (long time not visiting these threads). It's a true riddle, keep up solving it!

I'm still likely to suggest Snarl jr., and none of the forerunner suggestions persuaded me, personally. I still interpret Rich's words in the way: "I'm not inventing a new monster for the reveal but instead I planned this since strip 100".

Now you may stone me to death for my heresy.

"I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually." He pretty much states here that it's not something he made up, period, not just not something he made up for the specific purpose of the mystery. Not to mention that Snarl Jr. isn't exactly "one of these."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually." He pretty much states here that it's not something he made up, period, not just not something he made up for the specific purpose of the mystery.

In this particular case, I much prefer the far more clear "it isn't something I just made up for the story". Snarl was invented for the story. MitD wasn't. Thus, they cannot be the same, or father and son, or any other permutation thereof.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

In this particular case, I much prefer the far more clear "it isn't something I just made up for the story". Snarl was invented for the story. MitD wasn't. Thus, they cannot be the same, or father and son, or any other permutation thereof.

Grey Wolf

True. I missed that, actually, since it was followed by the "it isn't something I made up for just one purpose" line, which I figured could be interpreted on its own to mean that it could have been created as part of the larger story rather than for the mystery itself.

[Starscream]

I'd hazard a guess that he is Large, or at least "Largeish". Look at any strip where he converses with a human-sized creature, you'll see that while his eyes appear to be at approximately the same level as the person he is talking to, they are significantly bigger. Could be a large creature crouching down (or a quadruped).

Or just a creature with an abnormally large head/eyes for Medium. Maybe this is Rich's way of hinting that he is something from anime.:smallwink:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd hazard a guess that he is Large, or at least "Largeish". Look at any strip where he converses with a human-sized creature, you'll see that while his eyes appear to be at approximately the same level as the person he is talking to, they are significantly bigger. Could be a large creature crouching down (or a quadruped).

See section 2a - Size. You bring nothing new to the table.

GW

[Shale]

The comment about the eyes being bigger than Medium creatures' is new, but it's not conclusive either. He could just have big eyes, or they could look bigger because they're glowing.

[Hardcore]

Nice, new thread!

(My vote for Laxsnor with reversed powers:P)

[Obrysii]

See section 2a - Size. You bring nothing new to the table.

GW

...and yet, there's no reason for such rudeness.

[Sc00by]

I offer no insight (though I think it's some kind of half thing) but would like to point out that your BB code goes to pot in the Ephemeral Hangman entry under things that it isn't.

[Mellisan]

I was thinking about Redcloak being able to identify MitD. Assuming the check was based on a knowledge skill, clerics only have access to Arcana, History, Planes, and Religion as class skills.

If Xykon knows what he is (and not through Redcloak), sorcerers only have Arcana.

Arcana: Constructs*, Dragons, Magical Beasts
Religion: Undead*, Divine Beings*
Planes: Outsiders, Elementals*

*ruled out for other reasons

History doesn't offer specific monster lore, though if MitD was of a famous type I could see a generous DM allowing it. That doesn't really help us though.

Wizards can take any, so the spectator at the circus would in theory have been able to know, but that seems indicative of it being a high DC Knowledge check, ie MitD is a rare creature.

If it's based off a Kn check:
Xykon and Redcloak know - Dragon or Magical Beast
Only Redcloak knows - Dragon, Magical Beast, or Outsider


I would say one of my issues with Slaad in this context is that even though the White and Black Slaad are very rare, they are identifiable as Slaad, and those are common enough as a species to be used as conscience angels. I think the Kn:Planes check to know "that's a kind of slaad" might not be that high. That's supposition though.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Alright. I have the answer guys.

The MitD is always in the dark. And eats a lot.

You know what he is?

A grue.

I like this better than my Giygas suggestion last thread. :smalltongue:

[DaggerPen]

Alright. I have the answer guys.

The MitD is always in the dark. And eats a lot.

You know what he is?

A grue.

I like this better than my Giygas suggestion last thread. :smalltongue:

That one's been suggested a few times, but no one's yet been able to really explain the escape with it.

[Shale]

Can we throw the grue in "Frequently proposed discarded ideas"? At this point I think it's beaten Pun-Pun.

[Acero]

Don't know if this has been stated before, but I find the chance of it being a psonic creature very rare.

When Redcloak was looking for a way to search O-Chul's mind, he said that he had to research wether psonics were even being used in the campaign. If MitD was a psonic, and RC knew what it was, he would have known psonics exist.

[Darakonis]

Alright. I have the answer guys.

The MitD is always in the dark. And eats a lot.

You know what he is?

A grue.

I like this better than my Giygas suggestion last thread. :smalltongue:

Already under proposed ideas :smallwink:

Peace,
-Darakonis


EDIT: Ninja'd

[Barlen]

Don't know if this has been stated before, but I find the chance of it being a psonic creature very rare.

When Redcloak was looking for a way to search O-Chul's mind, he said that he had to research wether psonics were even being used in the campaign. If MitD was a psonic, and RC knew what it was, he would have known psonics exist.

I'm not a very big fan of Psionics in the game, but for this creature/character I think its the most likely source of its powers. The concept of "wishing really hard and making something come true" (barring an actual granted "Wish", but then where did it come from) seems to suggest psionics rather than arcane or divine magic. He would effectively be creating the idea of what he was doing with his mind.

Now, granted, either was we look at this his going from having no real power (psionic or arcane/divine) to being able to transport (teleport/wish/alter reality) as his first conscious manifestation is a hurdle. It goes against the idea of leveling up. You don't start with 9th level spells, you start with 1st. Even creatures that have sorcerer levels have to progress through HD levels and get higher spell casting as we go (see the fat dragon in the current story arc). Given this I still think it would be easier for psionics to work this way than the other alternatives.

[Fable Wright]

... will he ever tell us what it is?

[DaggerPen]

... will he ever tell us what it is?

Not sure if he ever explicitly states that he will, but it's pretty well implied in the first quote from him in the thread, since he does talk about how anticlimactic the reveal would be if it was a monster he made up. Plus, he uses past tense when saying he planned to never reveal MitD before he knew what he was, implying that said plans have changed.

[JonestheSpy]

Maybe I didn't see it it, but I think the summation missed what many people regard as a big hint in strip 651, panel 7, with the Go pieces making a reflection of the MitD's head.

[DaggerPen]

Maybe I didn't see it it, but I think the summation missed what many people regard as a big hint in strip 651, panel 7, with the Go pieces making a reflection of the MitD's head.

Pretty much everyone comments on that, and oddly enough, pretty much everyone seems to either see exactly their theory in it or have no idea what it is. I think the general consensus by now is that it's just pareidola.

[Jokasti]

I think it's some sort of Flumph.

[DaggerPen]

I think it's some sort of Flumph.

Er- why, exactly?

[XAQ]

Has anyone suggested that it might be an early-edition creature? The explorers may have been surprised to see it simply because it hadn't been converted over to the newer editions. It could be something from OD&D or even Chainmail. I wish I were more familiar with those older books... I don't remember enough to take a guess.

[Kish]

Has anyone suggested that it might be an early-edition creature?
Yes. Obligatory text.

[Querzis]

I have been thinking for a while now that the MiTD can only be one thing:

Godzilla

Pros: -Godzilla had a son (and I'm not talking about the american movie, he did in the original japanese version too) and the MiTD could definitly describe his father as being large and eating everything
-Finding the son of Godzilla in a rainforest despite the fact that Godzilla is usually in the cities or in japanese mountains and plains would definitly be surprising. Hearing him talk would also be surprising.
-He can definitly do earthquake just by stomping on the ground.
-Hes really strong and tough.
-It would definitly explain the reaction of the crowds. Godzilla is ugly but hes also really majestic.
-Godzilla eyes are usually yellow but they can turn red when hes really angry

-Cons: - I cant explain the «Escape». Then again, Rich did say those were powers even he didnt know he had. Beside, if Godzilla could actually talk and would demand that someone escape and get to his friends, I'm pretty damn sure the planet would obey him because its scared Godzilla might destroy it.

Otherwise I really like the Hoary Hunter suggestion.

[Vargtass]

@Querzis: Your proposal is listed under copyrighted ideas, and has been discussed at length before. However, if I remember correctly, the son is a good fit, if it were not for copyright.

[Kish]

Well, and "lack of any ability to teleport others," plus, now, "Why would he recognize what Tsukiko was studying as half a ritual on sight?"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, and "lack of any ability to teleport others," plus, now, "Why would he recognize what Tsukiko was studying as half a ritual on sight?"

Not to mention "It cannot possibly fit under the umbrella"

BIG EDIT: For some reason, I did not get notification of about 30 posts...


I offer no insight (though I think it's some kind of half thing) but would like to point out that your BB code goes to pot in the Ephemeral Hangman entry under things that it isn't.

Fixed. Thanks. Thor knows how long that's been like this...


...and yet, there's no reason for such rudeness.

What you call rudeness I call short, dry answer. I'm not going to spend three paragraphs letting someone know they should have checked the first post of the page they are writing in.


Can we throw the grue in "Frequently proposed discarded ideas"? At this point I think it's beaten Pun-Pun.

I was already considering it at the end of the last thread. If it gets suggested again, I think I will.


... will he ever tell us what it is?

I think the answer to that is yes, he will. Can't track the relevant quote though (away from books), but I'm fairly certain that he has mentioned he'll reveal it close to the end of the story.


Pretty much everyone comments on that, and oddly enough, pretty much everyone seems to either see exactly their theory in it or have no idea what it is. I think the general consensus by now is that it's just pareidola.

Hear, hear. I think I'll have to add this 'clue' to the list somewhere, though. Maybe in section 1b (other info)? Or in 2c (maybe under Drawing Clues)?


Has anyone suggested that it might be an early-edition creature? The explorers may have been surprised to see it simply because it hadn't been converted over to the newer editions. It could be something from OD&D or even Chainmail. I wish I were more familiar with those older books... I don't remember enough to take a guess.

To elaborate a bit more: yes, as already mentioned. Presents a few aditional problems: why wasn't in Dorukan's Dungeon like all other old edition creatures being the most obvious. That said, don't let that stop you, if you have the perfect creature which just happens to be 1st ed.

Grey Wolf

[JonestheSpy]

Pretty much everyone comments on that, and oddly enough, pretty much everyone seems to either see exactly their theory in it or have no idea what it is. I think the general consensus by now is that it's just pareidola.

I remain confidant that the general consensus is wrong in this case.

I also think it's going to be pretty much impossible to actually guess the creature from it's known characteristics, as it seems obvious that whatever the creature is based on, RB has modified it significantly and it can't conform exactly to any monster-as-statted.

That said, I'm still leaning toward Tarrasque.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I remain confidant that the general consensus is wrong in this case.
Unsupported assertion based on an argument from personal belief.


I also think it's going to be pretty much impossible to actually guess the creature from it's known characteristics, as it seems obvious that whatever the creature is based on, RB has modified it significantly and it can't conform exactly to any monster-as-statted.
So you are calling Rich a liar?


That said, I'm still leaning toward Tarrasque.

And to top it off, the most unlikely of suggestions, long discredited. Can't fit, no matter how you look at it.

But at least I named the thread accurately.

Grey Wolf

[SPoD]

Have we fully considered the possibility of class levels?

Under the "Cons" for templated creatures, the main points are that such a creature wouldn't be common enough for the hunters to recognize it on sight. However, a normal creature with unexpected class levels would appear the same, particularly if it has been Awakened before gaining those levels. And there are classes for almost any sort of ability one would like to learn. Levels in Psion or such could potentially solve all of the problems that a psionic template could without as much of a plausibility problem.

Now, the main con, as I see it, is that the MITD would have needed to learn any class levels, and thus should remember what he can do with them. To this, I would argue that he is clearly suffering from some level of plot-induced amnesia where he can't remember his own name or species. It's not a stretch for him to not remember gaining levels, then. Maybe he has all the powers of a 35th level sorcerer, but whatever trauma drove the knowledge of where he came from or what he's called has suppressed those powers beyond his conscious mind's grasp. This is why he can have flashes of insight into magical workings without truly understanding them, and why he can suddenly pull the power up when he needs it.

Also, remember that the ABD had extra sorcerer levels in order to pull off what was required of her for the plot, so Rich is not adverse to the idea of monsters with extra spellcasting.

So, since I didn't see it mentioned in the first post, I'd like to propose, "Any other reasonable option, with additional spellcasting class levels to fix the gaps" as something to consider.

EDIT: Just going off the list of discarded ideas in the first post for an example, a Wendigo with a pile of sorcerer or psion levels would fit pretty well, since the only "Con" listed is the inability to use magic.

[JonestheSpy]

Unsupported assertion based on an argument from personal belief.

As is saying that it's not - there is no hard evidence either way, and therefore both theories are equally valid, regardless of who's in the majority.



So you are calling Rich a liar?

Don't be silly. I am pointing out that thee is NO creature in the books that possesses all the characteristics of the MitD. Otherwise, it would have been pretty easy to identify by now, wouldn't it? Clearly, whatever creature it is, RB has developed it further.

I don't know why this is a problem for anyone. There are innumerable elements of the strip that don't conform to game mechanics.



And to top it off, the most unlikely of suggestions, long discredited. Can't fit, no matter how you look at it.

As illustrated by my two previous points, it is not 'discredited', merely no longer popular. I could well be wrong, it's not a theory I'm particularly invested in, it's just he one that seems most likely to me based on the clues we've seen.



But at least I named the thread accurately.


Yup. Hey, it's the first time I've had a thread directed at me personally.

edit:

Everything SPoD said

Seems like a good solution to the dilemma.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have we fully considered the possibility of class levels?
Yes. Nothing much ever came from it - mostly for the same reason you have stumbled in your post: it ends up being "an unsuitable creature base, augmented somehow by Rich", also known as the "Rich template problem". By Reductio ad absurdum, I'm sure someone that knew it's way around 3.5 could take a potted plant, or a pixie, and class-level it up to godhood. That doesn't put us anywhere near an actual answer, though.


Also, remember that the ABD had extra sorcerer levels in order to pull off what was required of her for the plot, so Rich is not adverse to the idea of monsters with extra spellcasting.

Ah, but Rich never told us we could guess what ABD was with the clues. That would've been silly, since it was obviously a black dragon of advanced age. MitD is a beast of his own, and Rich has said that it can be guessed. Now, yes, "guess" can have several meanings. One would be "stab in the dark" guess, but I can only hope Rich was referring more to "if you happen to have the obscure monster manual I pulled MitD from, you'll recognise him from his actions in the comic".


As is saying that it's not - there is no hard evidence either way, and therefore both theories are equally valid, regardless of who's in the majority.

Err... No. Pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia) has been studied and is very well understood. It has far more evidence in its corner than your unsupported assertion has.


As illustrated by my two previous points, it is not 'discredited', merely no longer popular. I could well be wrong, it's not a theory I'm particularly invested in, it's just he one that seems most likely to me based on the clues we've seen.

Do you have any clues not listed in the first post? Or you are serious when suggestion a colossal-sized creature, with no magic, as a possibility for umbrella-holding escape-producing MitD?


Hey, it's the first time I've had a thread directed at me personally.

Don't flatter yourself. You are just one more in a long list of people that have suggested Tarrasque. For the rest of us that sees Tarrasque as utterly impossible, it's just boring having to go through the same dance every ten pages or so.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

I remain confidant that the general consensus is wrong in this case.

Then what do you think it looks like?


I also think it's going to be pretty much impossible to actually guess the creature from it's known characteristics, as it seems obvious that whatever the creature is based on, RB has modified it significantly and it can't conform exactly to any monster-as-statted.

In the first place, I don't believe we know yet that it doesn't conform exactly to any monster-as-statted; there are a lot of third-party sourcebooks, as I understand it, and I still think that it'd be worth checking out some of the old Dragon magazine articles, as I believe they also had new/adjusted statted monsters in there.


That said, I'm still leaning toward Tarrasque.



These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that discards them. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
Tarrasque Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species), far bigger than can fit under an umbrella and, at CR20, no match for the Tower's dragon.
(Emphasis added)

[SPoD]

Yes. Nothing much ever came from it - mostly for the same reason you have stumbled in your post: it ends up being "an unsuitable creature base, augmented somehow by Rich", also known as the "Rich template problem". By Reductio ad absurdum, I'm sure someone that knew it's way around 3.5 could take a potted plant, or a pixie, and class-level it up to godhood. That doesn't put us anywhere near an actual answer, though.

I don't really see it as a problem, though. I'm not suggesting some crazy patchwork quilt of abilities, I'm suggesting a WHOLE LOT of ONE ability that is a critical part of understanding how the game works: class levels. That makes the idea much more guessable.


Ah, but Rich never told us we could guess what ABD was with the clues. That would've been silly, since it was obviously a black dragon of advanced age. MitD is a beast of his own, and Rich has said that it can be guessed.

This is sort of a silly argument...you're saying that it can't be a monster with sorcerer levels is because Rich said it could be guessed. Well, the fact that I just guessed it proves that it CAN be guessed. Rich's statement means nothing more or less than that: it is not something that literally is beyond the capacity to be guessed, like something that only exists in his mind. Reading too much into his statement is the path to creating restrictions that his words don't actually denote...sort of like Roy asking the Oracle which of these two Gates would be attacked next.

EDIT: Before he made this statement, remember that people would come onto threads like this and say, "You're wasting your time, it's gonna be something he just makes up on the spot." It also shoots down the Snarl Jr. theory pretty handily, all without connoting any more meaning than what it literally says.


Now, yes, "guess" can have several meanings. One would be "stab in the dark" guess, but I can only hope Rich was referring more to "if you happen to have the obscure monster manual I pulled MitD from, you'll recognise him from his actions in the comic".

An equally possible answer is "If you take these two simple things, both of which are in the core rulebooks, and put them together, you'll recognise him from his actions in the comic." Nothing Rich has ever said has indicated that it MUST be obscure. The answer could be really plainly obvious, once you think to guess it.

Your counterarguments all run along the lines of assuming great complexity, something I am not suggesting at all. Adding one core class to a monster is not overly complex, especially when there are monsters like Titans on the list of possibilities that almost ALWAYS are depicted as having class levels. I, for one, find that a far more elegant solution that will please more readers--many of whom are only passingly familiar with D&D--than some truly obscure monster no one has ever heard of.

[Shale]

Don't be silly. I am pointing out that thee is NO creature in the books that possesses all the characteristics of the MitD. Otherwise, it would have been pretty easy to identify by now, wouldn't it? Clearly, whatever creature it is, RB has developed it further.

Read the "forerunners" section. We've got five creatures that fit reasonably well as written.

Edit: Why no class levels? Well, Redcloak specifically says he doesn't have cleric levels. And Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createundead.htm), the spell he was being told he couldn't cast because he didn't have caster levels for it, is also a sorcerer/wizard spell, sooooo....

[SPoD]

Why no class levels? Well, Redcloak specifically says he doesn't have cleric levels. And Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createundead.htm), the spell he was being told he couldn't cast because he didn't have caster levels for it, is also a sorcerer/wizard spell, sooooo....

Please. Are you suggesting that every sorcerer in the world has chosen the spell Create Undead?

Also, keep in mind that Redcloak may not know what class levels the MITD has, especially if the MITD is himself unaware of them. There is no way to detect class levels in the game, and no one on Team Evil thought to accuse the MITD of the escape. The fact that someone in the comic doesn't know something is not proof that it isn't true. We, the readers, are privy to many facts that they are not.

If anything, the idea of unexpected class levels is a BETTER fit than any other proposed idea for how the MITD could enact the escape without anyone on Team Evil--who have seen what creature type he is--suspecting that he did it. They know his base type only, not his class. If it were a white slaad, wouldn't Xykon have looked around the room and said, "Hey, the white slaad in the box can use Teleport, maybe HE did it!"?

[Lateral]

Urgh, please, don't let this thread devolve into arguing and postchopping. That way lies MADNESS. :smallmad:

I'd like to suggest the Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) as a possible for the MiTD. It has a high strength, DR and fast healing (would stop Miko's attacks), its frightful howl would explain that scene where the MiTD yells at Haley and Belkar much better than handwaving it up to just a huge Intimidate, it doesn't speak, and it's within the correct size range. Unfortunately, it can't explain the ESCAPE.

[SPoD]

Further supporting evidence: On Page 1 of Start of Darkness, toddler Xykon animates his dead dog without any knowledge of how he did it. He does not say the name of a spell or enact any spellcasting; he simply wants his dog to come back, and the magical effect just happens.

This seems like exactly what happens with the MITD's Escape: he has inborn sorcerous power, unusual for his species, that erupts when he wants something bad enough. The scene in SOD is thus a huge clue as to where the MITD gets his unexpected power, because Rich is showing us that in OOTS world, this sometimes happens with sorcerers. And he put it on PAGE ONE of the book where they meet the MITD for the first time, so we don't miss it. It's foreshadowing and backstory rolled into one.

Basically, if no one wants to accept the possibility of sorcerer levels, then I request that every frontrunner gets the following text added to their "Cons":

• Inborn teleportation power doesn't explain why Xykon wouldn't suspect the MITD of causing O-Chul's escape, since he should know what the MITD's species is capable of.

Only class levels (or a template that has no visual effects) can explain Xykon not knowing what the MITD is capable of and thus not suspecting him of causing the escape.

[Shale]

This (a) assumes that Xykon cares enough to learn all of MitD's capabilities, (b) hasn't given up on the possibility of him ever using them, and (c) suspects that MitD didn't sleep through the whole thing.

[Kish]

My primary reason for doubting the "pile of X levels" idea is, when we first saw him in Start of Darkness, he was entirely happy with a lazy life. When Xykon and Redcloak took him into Xykon's tower, his initial reaction was that he was afraid of the monsters. The ancient black dragon adventuring, or the dragon equivalent thereof, wasn't terribly surprising, but where would he have gotten the XP to have class levels?

Then if we're discussing sorcerer or psion levels, we get to my second reason for doubting, which is, "...he has enough Charisma or Intelligence to cast Wish as a Charisma/Intelligence-based caster? Really?"\


• Inborn teleportation power doesn't explain why Xykon wouldn't suspect the MITD of causing O-Chul's escape, since he should know what the MITD's species is capable of.

We have no indication that Xykon knows what the creature's species is, beyond that it's ugly. Redcloak said he knows what the creature is. Not Xykon.

[SPoD]

This (a) assumes that Xykon cares enough to learn all of MitD's capabilities,

If you are suggesting that Xykon doesn't know what the base capabilities of the MITD's creature type are, then we must discard every statement that any character makes about the MITD's abilities as being unreliable. Including Redcloak's statements about it not being able to cast Create Undead, for example.

Either Xykon and Redcloak know what it can do and we can infer that the Escape is not normal, or they don't know what it can do and every statement they have made in any comic is suspect.

EDIT: Upon further consideration below, Redcloak is a more reliable source than Xykon, but it still opens up every one of Xykon's statements about the monster up to being deemed unreliable.


(b) hasn't given up on the possibility of him ever using them, and (c) suspects that MitD didn't sleep through the whole thing.

At the moment in question, Xykon cares. He cares probably more than we've ever seen him care about anything in the entire strip. If he had any reason to think that the MITD was capable of teleporting them, I believe he would have at least questioned him about it. He has no such reaction.

Really, I don't understand why this is being viewed as so much more impossible than many of the things listed in the OP. Whether you think it fits or not, it's no more implausible than any of the other ideas.

[SPoD]

My primary reason for doubting the "pile of X levels" idea is, when we first saw him in Start of Darkness, he was entirely happy with a lazy life. When Xykon and Redcloak took him into Xykon's tower, his initial reaction was that he was afraid of the monsters. The ancient black dragon adventuring, or the dragon equivalent thereof, wasn't terribly surprising, but where would he have gotten the XP to have class levels?

From a life he has no memory of. He could be thousands of years old for all we know, he just doesn't remember far enough back. Remember that my proposal is that he DOESN'T KNOW that he has class levels because he doesn't know much about himself at all.

If you are assuming that when we first see him in SOD, it is necessarily the beginning of his existence, or that his entire previous existence must perforce be the same as we see him there, well, you're free to make that assumption. I choose not to, since it doesn't explain why he doesn't know what his own creature type is called.


Then if we're discussing sorcerer or psion levels, we get to my second reason for doubting, which is, "...he has enough Charisma or Intelligence to cast Wish as a Charisma/Intelligence-based caster? Really?"\

Charisma? Sure, why not? He's lovable and goofy and has no problem making friends with O-Chul or Right-Eye's family. In fact, everyone seems to sort of accept him despite him contributing nothing of value to Team Evil's plan. Sounds like it could be a 19 Charisma to me.

EDIT: In other words, if you had to compare him to one member of OOTS in his characterization, it would obviously be Elan. Elan's Charisma is not all from looks, it's also from the charming quality of his naivete--a trait shared by the MITD. So yeah, I can totally see the MITD having a high Charisma. Not as high as Xykon, but he doesn't need it to be.


We have no indication that Xykon knows what the creature's species is, beyond that it's ugly. Redcloak said he knows what the creature is. Not Xykon.

Redcloak also says to Xykon that they both know how powerful he is, just before entering the Tower of Good Monsters. Also, Redcloak ALSO doesn't suspect the MITD, when he has as much reason as Xykon to want O-Chul found. It cost him an eye, remember. If Redcloak could have pointed to the MITD and said, "It could have been him! White slaadi can teleport!" and earned points with Xykon, I feel like he would have done so. He has no loyalty to the MITD that would override his desire to get his eye back.

If it makes you feel better, use Redcloak instead of Xykon in my proposed Con text. It doesn't change the main point.

EDIT: And please, no one suggest that somehow Redcloak wouldn't care enough to research what the MITD could do once he was on the team. He has access to the Monster Manuals, and it is entirely fitting with his character for him to do so.

EDIT AGAIN: The above edit has caused me to reconsider my statement in my previous post. We can safely assume that Recloak, if no one else, knows the abilities of the MITD's base creature type. Everyone else (especially Xykon) either knows, and thus Escape is not normal, or doesn't know, and thus is an unreliable source of information about the MITD.

[Kish]

If you are suggesting that Xykon doesn't know what the base capabilities of the MITD's creature type are, then we must discard every statement that any character [except Redcloak] makes about the MITD's abilities as being unreliable.

I don't think we should be treating anyone but the one character who said "I know what you are" to the creature in the darkness and didn't mean, "A good man," as speaking authoritatively on the subject of what he is. (Even Redcloak could be wrong, it would just surprise me a lot more than if Xykon was--or if Xykon's knowledge about the creature in the darkness was very heavily filtered through "what Redcloak thinks Xykon needs to know.")

[SPoD]

I don't think we should be treating anyone but the one character who said "I know what you are" to the creature in the darkness and didn't mean, "A good man," as speaking authoritatively on the subject of what he is. (Even Redcloak could be wrong, it would just surprise me a lot more than if Xykon was--or if Xykon's knowledge about the creature in the darkness was very heavily filtered through "what Redcloak thinks Xykon needs to know.")

Then we're in agreement on that point.

I just further believe that if Redcloak knew the MITD's stats, and those stats included the ability to teleport, then he would have mentioned that to Xykon at the point when Xykon was telling him he was forbidden to regenerate his eye because he let O-Chul get away. I don't think Redcloak has any reason not to consider every possibility of which he's aware for how the Escape happened at that point. He both wants to find O-Chul AND has his personal wholeness at stake.

So, if Redcloak is aware of the MITD's base stats, then either a.) the Escape is not par for the course for that creature, or b.) Redcloak chose not to mention the fact to Xykon at that critical juncture when it could have benefitted himself (and The Plan) greatly to do so. I have trouble believing "b".

EDIT: In other words, "What Xykon Needs to Know" likely always includes "Facts That Will Keep Him From Dismembering Me."

[Big Hungry Joe]

This is probably painfully obvious, but has anyone done a deep dive on the Dragon Magazine archives? So many ridiculous and obscure critters in there over the years (like those linnorms and a zillion other kinds of dragons like salt or rust, and even different kinds of grues). Although I have zero recollection of associated stats, some sort of prismatic giant crayfish or half-devil acid roc would be lots of fun.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is probably painfully obvious, but has anyone done a deep dive on the Dragon Magazine archives? So many ridiculous and obscure critters in there over the years (like those linnorms and a zillion other kinds of dragons like salt or rust, and even different kinds of grues). Although I have zero recollection of associated stats, some sort of prismatic giant crayfish or half-devil acid roc would be lots of fun.

If anyone has tried the Dragon Magazines, they have not made an issue of it.

BIG EDIT (again): Still having trouble getting notified of posts in this thread...


Really, I don't understand why this is being viewed as so much more impossible than many of the things listed in the OP. Whether you think it fits or not, it's no more implausible than any of the other ideas.


I don't really see it as a problem, though. I'm not suggesting some crazy patchwork quilt of abilities, I'm suggesting a WHOLE LOT of ONE ability that is a critical part of understanding how the game works: class levels. That makes the idea much more guessable.

No, you are not suggesting anything at all. You are broadening the search space, not pining it down. The only suggestion you've made is "wendigo with class levels", and I'm not sure you are taking it seriously yourself, since you have yet to refer to it again.

Basically, you could take any of the dozen plus monsters that have high strength and are ugly and point to any of those and say, "yep, that's MitD, just Rich gave him 18 levels of sorcerer".


Well, the fact that I just guessed it proves that it CAN be guessed.

And you'll get a pat in the back if it turns out to be a Wendigo with 18 sorcerer class levels. But sincerely, I very much doubt it. And I think you doubt it too. So you haven't actually guessed it.


An equally possible answer is "If you take these two simple things, both of which are in the core rulebooks, and put them together, you'll recognise him from his actions in the comic." Nothing Rich has ever said has indicated that it MUST be obscure. The answer could be really plainly obvious, once you think to guess it.

Nice strawman. Never implied it must be obscure. But, hey, if the boot fits, and it turns out to be a short earth elemental with sorcerer class levels... well, I for one would call that remarkably obscure. For one thing, I had never heard of the concept of giving class levels to monster before this thread. An ancient dragon with fancy spells? Sure. An earth elemental (or wendigo, or grue) with access to wish? Not as expected.


If it were a white slaad, wouldn't Xykon have looked around the room and said, "Hey, the white slaad in the box can use Teleport, maybe HE did it!"?

No, because Xykon knows MitD to be utterly incompetent. He's had to lower his expectations of what it can do, it keeps trying to toughen him by feeding him babies - which MitD does not eat! MitD was also, as far as Xykon could see, sleeping at the time.

And RC would think no higher of MitD than Xykon. Sure, if given time to figure it out, he might have pointed at MitD, but there was no such time in the scene. The priority was 1) obey Xykon; 2) save his own skin (and the plan) 3) Save the rest of goblintopia. Since Xykon was focusing on recovering the phylactery, so did RC. The possibility of playing detective and figuring how a wizard that had teleported in might have teleported out clearly was not high on the list. But seriously, you're clearly competent in 3.5, I'm sure you can think of a dozen ways V could have teleported out on his own, or be pulled out, without needing to depend on MitD having conveniently changed sides without RC's knowledge.


At the moment in question, Xykon cares. He cares probably more than we've ever seen him care about anything in the entire strip. If he had any reason to think that the MITD was capable of teleporting them, I believe he would have at least questioned him about it. He has no such reaction.

I disagree. Xykon doesn't care about how they escaped, not beyond the momentary rage. After that, for the rest of the scene, he is completely fixated on getting his phylactery back.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Actually, now that you mention it, the only reason Vaarsuvius couldn't teleport himself/herself and O-Chul away without the Splices is that s/he barred Conjuration, and his/her barred schools aren't evident on sight. If Xykon ever mentioned, "I had them both down on the floor and my hands in their mouths and I had paralyzed the wizard!" it was off-camera, and we know Redcloak didn't see the escape.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, now that you mention it, the only reason Vaarsuvius couldn't teleport himself/herself and O-Chul away without the Splices is that s/he barred Conjuration, and his/her barred schools aren't evident on sight. If Xykon ever mentioned, "I had them both down on the floor and my hands in their mouths and I had paralyzed the wizard!" it was off-camera, and we know Redcloak didn't see the escape.

Even then, I'm sure there are ways. Like that fancy "escape" spell - the one that gets you to a safe place when one of five conditions are triggered. Well, for all they know, 'the elf' had chosen "being pinned while paralyzed" or something like that.

(Yes, my lack of knowledge of high-level 3.5 spells is showing. Sorry)

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

This is probably painfully obvious, but has anyone done a deep dive on the Dragon Magazine archives? So many ridiculous and obscure critters in there over the years (like those linnorms and a zillion other kinds of dragons like salt or rust, and even different kinds of grues). Although I have zero recollection of associated stats, some sort of prismatic giant crayfish or half-devil acid roc would be lots of fun.

I've suggested that, but alas, I have no access to Dragon Magazine back-issues. If you or anyone else does, then I think it'd be worthwhile to comb through it for ideas.

[Mellisan]

Spent some time looking through unmentioned Magical Beasts, Dragons, and Outsiders. I haven't found a Dragon with a meaningful power level that it would be surprising it could speak as yet and there aren't actually that many epic CR outsiders, and none that it would be surprising for it to speak common. Of the things Redcloak would have class skill knowledge of, a Magical Beast seems most likely.


The Fiendwurm is a Magical Beast from MM2 and is CR28, very strong, and eats constantly to ease the suffering from the permanent portal to the Abyss in its stomach. Potentially explains the escape by sending V and O-Chul to the Abyss where the IFCC then forwards them along to Azure island (since they can't act directly on the Prime, but can probably act in the Abyss). Doesn't normally speak because it's in constant pain. I don't think it's a great fit since it lacks limbs and is Gargantuan, but I wanted to get it out there.

The Corpse-Tearer Linnorm might be a better fit than the Dread Linnorm. It only has one head, is higher CR (28), with higher DR (30), and casts as a 17th level cleric, as does the Grey Linnorm, so it could Miracle for the escape. The flavor text indicates it is knowledgeable of many ancient arcane mysteries and is hideous in appearance. Linnorms also don't innately have Common on their language list (Draconic and Abyssal). Specializes in control of the undead and is still too big though. The Gray one is huge but only has DR 15 and Str 24. Neither the Gray or Corpse-Tearer is immune to Enchantment.

Just for reference, there's a CR 30 Tarrasque in Dragon 359, just to address the "the silver dragon beats the tarrasque" issue. Doesn't deal with any of the other concerns.


Anyway, Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) has all the monsters up through 2007 sorted by CR within type which includes those from Dragon.

I think we might want to consider which clues are "definite" restrictions, and which are flexible. For example, the Big Game Hunters were surprised he spoke at all, and especially that he spoke Common, so the base creature definitely shouldn't be able to speak Common and probably shouldn't speak at all. On the other hand, the size restriction is probably more flexible since the MitD at least referenced his parent as being larger, so he *might* be unusually small or young.

[Timberboar]

Give it up, SPoD.

I tilted at this particular windmill a thread ago and I can tell you no good will come from it. It's like arguing religion -- people are too fixed in their beliefs to listen to new suggestions.

[Lord Bingo]

@Greywolf

I have a correction for the entry about the Zodar. You write that it has no way of accounting for the MitD being unharmed by Miko's and Belkar's attacks which means you must have missed that paragraph in my post(s) about the Zodar in the last thread (which is quite understandable given the amount of information you have to sift through to make this amazing thread happen). The Zodar is invulnerable to anything but bludgeoning damage -nothing else will harm it. Not magic. Not swords and daggers. Not massive damage from having a mountain dropped on it! It really is only the circus scene that it has trouble explaining.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of the things Redcloak would have class skill knowledge of, a Magical Beast seems most likely.

Hey, whatever you look up will be welcomed; that said, there is no need to restrict to "cleric class skills". The magical item red cloak RC is wearing is ridiculously powerful, and RC is a nerd. Both, separately or in combination, could imaginably expand RC's expertise of knowledge (something) skills.


The Corpse-Tearer Linnorm might be a better fit than the Dread Linnorm. It only has one head, is higher CR (28), with higher DR (30), and casts as a 17th level cleric, as does the Grey Linnorm, so it could Miracle for the escape. The flavor text indicates it is knowledgeable of many ancient arcane mysteries and is hideous in appearance. Linnorms also don't innately have Common on their language list (Draconic and Abyssal). Specializes in control of the undead and is still too big though. The Gray one is huge but only has DR 15 and Str 24. Neither the Gray or Corpse-Tearer is immune to Enchantment.

He. Nice to have an oldie back. Suggested (by same guy that suggested the Dread Linnorm) but discarded due to the cleric abilities. RC doesn't think MitD can animate dead, which discards them.

Edit: I just realised they should, nevertheless, be added to the list of suggested creatures. Silly me. Since it was discarded by the very person that suggested them, they never made the list, and no-one ever complained about it. Sigh. Oh, well, there is always the next version when we hit page ten.


Just for reference, there's a CR 30 Tarrasque in Dragon 359, just to address the "the silver dragon beats the tarrasque" issue. Doesn't deal with any of the other concerns.

I was thinking of taking that one out anyway. We've been accepting CR18+, some of which would have trouble with the silver dragon. It's very circumstantial evidence.


I think we might want to consider which clues are "definite" restrictions, and which are flexible. For example, the Big Game Hunters were surprised he spoke at all, and especially that he spoke Common, so the base creature definitely shouldn't be able to speak Common and probably shouldn't speak at all. On the other hand, the size restriction is probably more flexible since the MitD at least referenced his parent as being larger, so he *might* be unusually small or young.

... but I'm already doing that. In each of the clues, I not only list the positive, but also the negative, plus any explanations around them that were at least a bit plausible. Take those two: speaking has nothing, since it's fairly clear Rich gave us a clue there about a modification to the base creature. We are looking for something that cannot talk. Size, on the other hand, mentions the "young" idea (but warns of the consequences of taking that line), and even the handwave "if fairies are larger than they should, maybe MitD is far smaller than he should too", even though I have no trust in that one.


@Greywolf

I have a correction for the entry about the Zodar. You write that it has no way of accounting for the MitD being unharmed by Miko's and Belkar's attacks which means you must have missed that paragraph in my post(s) about the Zodar in the last thread (which is quite understandable given the amount of information you have to sift through to make this amazing thread happen). The Zodar is invulnerable to anything but bludgeoning damage -nothing else will harm it. Not magic. Not swords and daggers. Not massive damage from having a mountain dropped on it! It really is only the circus scene that it has trouble explaining.

Yeah, I definitely missed that. Is this the "new version" of zodar that is no longer a construct? I could swear they mentioned lack of proper defences as a con...

Grey Wolf

[SPoD]

No, you are not suggesting anything at all. You are broadening the search space, not pining it down.

If I believe you are narrowing the search space more than the information we have would support, then broadening it would be a valid proposal. I think discarding out of hand the possibility of class levels has no basis other than "Grey Wolf hopes it isn't like that."

I asked if something had been considered, and basically got told, "We considered it and discarded it for reasons A, B, and C." I don't see why, if I think those reasons are questionable, it's somehow not allowed for me to dispute them. Or does the fact that you started the thread mean that you must approve all ideas herein?


The only suggestion you've made is "wendigo with class levels", and I'm not sure you are taking it seriously yourself, since you have yet to refer to it again.

Basically, you could take any of the dozen plus monsters that have high strength and are ugly and point to any of those and say, "yep, that's MitD, just Rich gave him 18 levels of sorcerer".


Yes, and considering you're curtly dismissing anyone's suggestion that doesn't fit every possible criteria, an avenue of exploration that opens some of those suggestions back up as possibilities seems like an entirely legitimate area of discussion.

But hey, you want me to pin it down? Then let me shoot holes in your so-called "top contender" for a moment, the White Slaad.

1.) The big game hunters say they would never expect to see the creature in this part of the world. This heavily implies that they WOULD expect to see it in another part of the world. Slaadi are extraplanar; no one should ever EXPECT to see one anywhere on the Prime Material Plane.

2.) Non-native outsiders do not need to eat or sleep. While you could argue that the MITD does not NEED to eat (it just likes to), its need for sleep from time to time seems out of its control. It feels "sleepy" then falls asleep. That simply does not happen to outsiders.

3.) Redcloak implies that he could use Create Undead to animate the MITD's corpse as a zombie. You can't do that to an outsider.

There. Now I'd like to hear you claim that it is somehow MORE likely to be a white slaad where Rich altered all of these factors (plus the ones mentioned in the first post) than a monster with class levels.

And for the record, I also mentioned Titan, which I find actually very plausible if we add on sorcerer levels.


Give it up, SPoD.

I tilted at this particular windmill a thread ago and I can tell you no good will come from it. It's like arguing religion -- people are too fixed in their beliefs to listen to new suggestions.

Yeah, I'm getting that impression. It seems like rather than considering all possibilities, there's an interest in conforming the answer to a pre-determined idea of what the monster could be. It seems ridiculous to me to posit that Rich may have changed a monster's reproduction cycle, need for sleep, alignment, how its abilities work, or number of freaking heads --and that's somehow MORE "pure" and "probable" an answer than slapping on a few class levels.

[Lord Bingo]

Yeah, I definitely missed that. Is this the "new version" of zodar that is no longer a construct? I could swear they mentioned lack of proper defences as a con...

The original Zodar was NOT a construct. The Zodar updated for 3.5 IS a construct. They are both invulnerable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think discarding out of hand the possibility of class levels has no basis other than "Grey Wolf hopes it isn't like that."

I am not discarding anything; I'm picking a bone with your idea that it "suggests" anything. It doesn't.


I asked if something had been considered, and basically got told, "We considered it and discarded it for reasons A, B, and C." I don't see why, if I think those reasons are questionable, it's somehow not allowed for me to dispute them. Or does the fact that you started the thread mean that you must approve all ideas herein?

I didn't start the thread (although I am the maintainer). However, an idea has to make sense to me for me to accurately add it. Take the Flumph idea in the first page, how would I go about adding such thing? Anyway, would it make you happy if I added, somewhere, an item about adding class levels to an otherwise unsuitable creature to make it fit? I can do that, just like I did to the template stack. That doesn't mean that I am somehow convinced that Rich really is going to give us a Titan with 18 class levels gained while trapped in a box.

That reminds me, never did find where you mentioned the shadowy past to quote it, and with one thing and another it slipped my mind. By suggesting "he has forgotten he gained 18 levels" you are going into very murky ground. Logically, for one, you are running afoul of Occam's razor, since you are adding details we have no evidence of, in the same way that having to have lost a head made it a problem for Dread Linnorm, except several orders of magnitude bigger since it involves 18 levels.

Characterwise, I'd also argue that if you no longer remember the experiences that made you gain 18 levels, you are technically no longer in possession of that experience and thus neither do you have access to the levels. I know this is unlikely to be so by the rules, though. Might depend on the class of magic we're talking about (wizardy is definitely out, sorcery is far more tricky since it involves learning to control and shape inherent magic).


Yes, and considering you're curtly dismissing anyone's suggestion that doesn't fit every possible criteria, an avenue of exploration that opens some of those suggestions back up as possibilities seems like an entirely legitimate area of discussion.
Again with the ad hominen: "Since Grey Wolf doesn't like every idea proposed, he must be wrong!" is basically what I'm getting from you. Well, sorry, but I really don't like every idea proposed, but I do add them to the first post every ten pages. What would you want me to do?


But hey, you want me to pin it down? Then let me shoot holes in your so-called "top contender" for a moment, the White Slaad.

1.) The big game hunters say they would never expect to see the creature in this part of the world. This heavily implies that they WOULD expect to see it in another part of the world. Slaadi are extraplanar; no one should ever EXPECT to see one anywhere on the Prime Material Plane.

2.) Non-native outsiders do not need to eat or sleep. While you could argue that the MITD does not NEED to eat (it just likes to), its need for sleep from time to time seems out of its control. It feels "sleepy" then falls asleep. That simply does not happen to outsiders.

3.) Redcloak implies that he could use Create Undead to animate the MITD's corpse as a zombie. You can't do that to an outsider.

3) According to Rich, you can turn an angel into a zombie, so that one's out.
The other two I'll agree that are very slight stretchings. So what? The slaad is still a top contender, compared to anything else, including "a titan that gained 18 levels of sorcerer, then forgot about it, but can remember its entire life back to when he was in the jungle with his dad".


The original Zodar was NOT a construct. The Zodar updated for 3.5 IS a construct. They are both invulnerable.

Thanks. I'll update it when we hit page 10. I think I'll add a note about the two versions of zodar, and how the newer one fits less well (Not that I think that a major problem, mind you.).

Grey Wolf

[Mellisan]

Hey, whatever you look up will be welcomed; that said, there is no need to restrict to "cleric class skills". The magical item red cloak RC is wearing is ridiculously powerful, and RC is a nerd. Both, separately or in combination, could imaginably expand RC's expertise of knowledge (something) skills.



Sure. I'm just trying to cover one section. I think that beyond Dragon and Magical Beast, Aberration is the only other type that is likely anyway, since most of the other types have some issues.




... but I'm already doing that. In each of the clues, I not only list the positive, but also the negative, plus any explanations around them that were at least a bit plausible. Take those two: speaking has nothing, since it's fairly clear Rich gave us a clue there about a modification to the base creature. We are looking for something that cannot talk. Size, on the other hand, mentions the "young" idea (but warns of the consequences of taking that line), and even the handwave "if fairies are larger than they should, maybe MitD is far smaller than he should too", even though I have no trust in that one.

Grey Wolf

Sorry, I didn't mean it to seem like a criticism. Your first page post does a great job of listing everything. I was thinking just more along the lines of a small set of baseline criteria we can use to more readily comb through the vast selection of monsters to quickly make cut/keep decisions. So in this case, base creature being known for being unable to speak common eliminates a large swath of monsters.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, I didn't mean it to seem like a criticism. Your first page post does a great job of listing everything. I was thinking just more along the lines of a small set of baseline criteria we can use to more readily comb through the vast selection of monsters to quickly make cut/keep decisions. So in this case, base creature being known for being unable to speak common eliminates a large swath of monsters.

I think I tried that once. It was a disaster. Check SPoD's post to see how much I'm accused already of being a fascist overlord that arbitrarily discards ideas. If I tried to make real value judgements like "this is an actual clue, while this is not", I'm sure there'd be pitchforks and torches waving outside my window by morning.

Best I can do - and am doing - is declare the "three scenes" somehow better than all the other clues, and that way keep a few top contenders away from the masses - and those three scenes were picked because all three combined are a good bar to overpass, not because of any other reason.

Grey Wolf

[Darakonis]

Based on the Crystal Keep catalogue (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Monsters-byCR.pdf), I'm trying to narrow down the search field with respect to 3rd Edition sourcebooks. Based on information from the first post, I'll be using 2004 as my reference year--anything published after 2004 is out of the question, and anything published during 2004 may or may not be applicable. I'll be editing this post as I dig deeper.

Books marked with strikethrough text do not contain monster entries, as per Crystal Keep.



Pre-2004:

Dragon Magazine, up to and including issue 314
Dungeon Magazine, up to and including issue 105
Underdark (2003)
*Silver Marches (2002)
*Races of Faerûn (2003)
*Lords of Darkness (2001)
*Magic of Faerûn (2001)
*Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (2001)
Fiend Folio (2003)
Book of Exalted Deeds (2003)
Draconomicon (2003)
Complete Warrior (2003)
Monster Manual II (2002)
Monster Manual 3.5 (2003)
*Dungeon Master’s Guide v.3.5 (2003)
*Player's Handbook 3.5 (2003)
Epic Level Handbook (2002) *Not in Crystal Keep*


2004:

Dragon Magazine, issues 315-326
Dungeon Magazine, issues 106-117
Eberron Campaign Setting (June 2004)
*Player’s Guide to Faerûn (March 2004)
Frostburn (Sept 2004)
*Unearthed Arcana (Feb 2004)
Libris Mortis (Oct 2004)
*Races of Destiny (Dec 2004)
Races of Stones (Aug 2004)
Complete Arcane (Nov 2004)
Complete Divine (May 2004)
Monster Manual III (Sept 2004)


Post-2004 (Obsolete for our purposes):

Five Nations (July 2005)
Secrets of Xen’drik (July 2006)
Races of Eberron (April 2005)
Faiths of Eberron (Sept 2006)
Player's Guide to Eberron (Jan 2006)
Sandstorm (2005)
Stormwrack (2005)
Drow of the Underdark (2007)
Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells (2006)
Fiendish Codex 1: Hoards of the Abyss (2006)
Lords of Madness (2005)
Races of the Dragon (2006)
Races of Eberron (2005)
Races of the Wild (2005)
Complete Scoundrel (2007)
Complete Adventurer (2005)
Monster Manual V (2007)
Monster Manual IV (July 2006)
Dungeon Master's Guide II (2005)
Player's Handbook II (2006)


__________________________________________________ _______


Next, I'll see if the books contain monsters of sufficient CR. I'm assuming the MitD has a base CR of at least 15.


Pre-2004:

Dragon Magazine, up to and including issue 314
TBD

Dragon Magazine, issues 274-300
- Teratamorph, DR287 (CR 16)
- Orcwort, DR292 (CR 20)
- Thorciasid, DR296 (CR 22)
- Wurm, DR296 (CR varies)

Dungeon Magazine, up to and including issue 105
TBD

Underdark (2003)
- Annihilator (CR 15)
- Beholder, Half-Illithid (aka "Mindwitness”) (CR 16)
- Kuo-Toa Leviathan (CR 15)

Fiend Folio (2003)
- Tunnel Terror (CR 15)
- Abyssal Ant Swarm (CR 16)
- Ethergaunt, Black (CR 17)
- Maulgoth (CR 17)
- Spectral Lurker (CR 17)
- Yuan-Ti Anathema (CR 18)
- Zodar (CR 16)
- Golem, Hellfire (CR 17)
- Inevitable, Quarut (CR 17)
- Blackstone Gigant (CR 18)
- Golem, Demonflesh (CR 18)
- Inevitable, Varakhut (CR 19)
- Drake, Sea (CR 15)
- Giant, Shadow (CR 18)
- Flame Snake, Greater (CR 16)
- Disenchanter (CR 17)
- Lucent Worm (CR 17)
- Chronotryn (CR 19)
- Thunder Worm (CR 21)
- Aoa, Sphere (CR 15)
- Demodand, Shator (CR 16)
- Demon, Wastrilith (CR 17)
- Rilmani, Aurumach (CR 17)
- Demon, Myrmyxicus (CR 21)
- Demon, Klurichir (CR 25)
- Hullathoin (CR 15)
- Crawling Head (CR 20)
- Century Worm (CR 19)

Book of Exalted Deeds (2003)
- Bronze Locust Swarm (CR 17)
- Deathraven Swarm (CR 20)
- Archon, Throne (CR 15)
- Eladrin, Tulani (CR 18)

Draconomicon (2003)
- Golem, Drakestone (CR 15)
- Golem, Ironwyrm (CR 17)
- Chaos Dragon (CR 15-22)
- Ethereal Dragon (CR 15-19)
- Fang Dragon (CR 15-21)
- Rust Dragon (CR 15-22)
- Landwyrm, Jungle (CR 16)
- Oceanus Dragon (CR 16-22)
- Pyroclastic Dragon (CR 16-22)
- Shadow Dragon (CR 16-24)
- Battle Dragon (CR 17-22)
- Drake, Storm (CR 17)
- Howling Dragon (CR 17-23)
- Radiant Dragon (CR 17-23)
- Styx Dragon (CR 17-22)
- Tarterian Dragon (CR 17-23)
- Landwyrm, Desert (CR 18)
- Landwyrm, Swamp (CR 20)
- Landwyrm, Mountain (CR 22)
- Vampiric Mature Adult Red Dragon (CR 20)
- Dracolich, Ancient Blue (CR 23)

Complete Warrior (2003)
Nothing above level 14

Monster Manual II (2002)
- Fihyr, Great (CR 15)
- Psurlon, Giant (CR 15)
- Windghost (CR 15)
- Moonbeast (CR 16)
- Amethyst Dragon (CR 15-26)
- Emerald Dragon (CR 15-25)
- Topaz Dragon (CR 15-26)
- Crystal Dragon (CR 16-24)
- Sapphire Dragon (CR 16-25)
- Linnorm, Gray (CR 20)
- Linnorm, Dread (CR 25)
- Hellfire Wyrm (CR 26)
- Linnorm, Corpse Tearer (CR 28)
- Tempest (CR 16)
- Ocean Strider (CR 18)
- Spirit of the Land (CR 23)
- Giant, Ocean (CR 19)
- Giant, Mountain (CR 26)
- Nightmare Beast (CR 15)
- Cloud Ray (CR 16)
- Roc, Chaos (CR 22)
- Phoenix (24)
- Leviathan (25)
- Fiendwurm (28)
- Doppelganger, Ethereal (CR 15)
- Teratomorph (CR 16)
- Flesh Jelly (CR 19)
- Ooze, Blood (CR 21)
- Yugoloth, Arcanaloth (CR 17)
- Demon, Kelvezu (CR 18)
- Orcwort (CR 20)
- Gravecrawler (CR 16)
- Banshee (CR 17)
- Deathbringer (CR 17)
- Effigy (CR 17)
- Corpse Gatherer (CR 19)
- Famine Spirit (CR 19)
- Ragewind (CR 19)
- Megapede (CR 20)

Monster Manual 3.5 (2003)
- Aboleth Mage, Wizard 10th (CR 17)
- Mind Flayer, Sorcerer 9th (CR 17)
- Inevitable, Marut (CR 15)
- Golem, Stone Greater (CR 16)
- Golem, Tombstone Greater (CR 18)
- Brass Dragon (CR 15-23)
- Bronze Dragon (CR 15-25)
- Red Dragon (CR 15-26)
- Silver Dragon (CR 15-26)
- White Dragon (CR 15-21)
- Black Dragon (CR 16-22)
- Blue Dragon (CR 16-25)
- Copper Dragon (CR 16-25)
- Gold Dragon (CR 16-27)
- Green Dragon (CR 16-24)
- Giant Frost, Jarl, Blackguard 8th (CR 17)
- Tarrasque (CR 20)
- Archon, Hound, Hero, Paladin 11th (CR 15)
- Devil, Horned (aka “Cornugon”) (CR 16)
- Planetar (CR 16)
- Demon, Marilith (CR 17)
- Formian, Queen (CR 17)
- Demon, Balor (CR 20)
- Devil, Pit Fiend (CR 20)
- Titan (CR 21)
- Titan, Iconoclast (CR 21)
- Titan, Strombringer (CR 21)
- Solar (CR 23)
- Mummy Lord, Cleric 10th (CR 15)
- Nightshade, Nightwalker (CR 16)
- Nightshade, Nightcrawler (CR 18)

Epic Level Handbook (2002) *Not in Crystal Keep*
- Abomination (CR 22)
- Atropal (CR 30)
- Chichimec (CR 21)
- Dream Larva (CR 31)
- Hecatoncheires (CR 57)
- Infernal (CR 26)
- Phaetons (CR 34)
- Phane (CR 25)
- Xixecal (CR 36)
- Behemoth (CR 18-19)
- Brachyurus (CR 23)
- Colossus (CR 24-33)
- Demilich (CR 29)
- Devastation Vermin (CR 39-50)
- Force Dragon (CR 19-59)
- Prismatic Dragon (CR 16-66)
- Primal Elemental (CR 35)
- Genius Loci (CR 30)
- Gibbering Orb (CR 27)
- Gloom (CR 25)
- Mithral Golem (CR 21)
- Adamantine Golem (CR 25)
- Ha-Naga (CR 22)
- Hagunemnon (Protean) (CR 29)
- Hoary Hunter (CR 25)
- Hunefer (CR 25)
- Lavawight (CR 23)
- Leshay (CR 28)
- Living Vault (CR 33)
- Mu Spore (CR 21)
- Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collector) (CR 26)
- Paragon Mind Flayer (CR 23)
- Prismasaurus (CR 28)
- Pseudonatural Troll (CR 21)
- Ruin Swarm (CR 23)
- Shadow of the Void (CR 26)
- Shape of Fire (CR 26)
- Sirrush (CR 24-28)
- White Slaad (CR 21)
- Black Slaad (CR 25)
- Tayellah (CR 24)
- Thorciasid (CR 22)
- Titan, Elder (CR 30)
- Treant, Elder (CR 25)
- Umbral Blot (Blackball) (CR 32)
- Uvuudaum (CR 27)
- Vermiurge (CR 24)
- Winterwight (CR 23)
- Worm that Walks (CR 26)



Peace,
-Darakonis

[Silver2195]

I'm betting on Protean.

* Transforming into an Umbral Blot isn't necessarily something that would occur to Xykon, so it makes sense that he wasn't blamed for the escape.
* It's psionic, but so are ithillids, which we've also seen in the comic. Monsters that are normally psionic can exist in settings without psionics.
* None of the other Forerunners are great fits. Would a slaad really be that unrecognizable? And then there's the life cycle issues. Dream Larvae are even worse (how can it have a weaker version of Worst Nightmare than normal but a more flexible version of Dreamscape?), and Dread Linnorms are just too big.

Edit: That's really useful, Darakonis!

[mofabulous]

I think you guys are way over analyzing it. It's not gonna be some random obscure creature from an old D&D sourcebook most people wouldn't know. It's going to be a comical creature most likely. Something that has a known father thats large.

Rich is not going to ruin the biggest reveal of them all by using an unknown creature. I know you guys are desperate to figure it out, but I just don't think its possible. He uses so much reference material from outside the d&d universe of stuff for his in comic work.

My guess? I was going with a baby rock monster for the obvious early clues, but since he has added in wishing/teleporting/howling type abilities I'm gonna go with some pokemon or final fantasy monster. He's already used so much reference from those 2 games that one more wouldn't matter. If your dead set on figuring it out thats where you all should be focusing.

[Querzis]

@Querzis: Your proposal is listed under copyrighted ideas, and has been discussed at length before. However, if I remember correctly, the son is a good fit, if it were not for copyright.

Weird, never heard anyone propose it before. Anyway, for the copyright, its not the like it would be the first time:

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/ndxtjhwrsz--It's-GodzillaAustin-Powers-in-Goldmember-Masi-Oka-Guy-1-Guy-2-

As long as its done as a parody copyright arent an issue. If Rich could be sued for making reference to other works he would have been a long time ago, juts think of the pokeballs! That being said, I will admit that this idea mainly worked before the «escape» part, but that comic surprised lots of us. There were just lots of things the MiTD could actually be before the Teleport, now nothing really seems to work anymore.

And Mofabulous, Rich said its a monster we could recognize. If nobody heard about it, it just doesnt work anymore. Pokemons dont work by the way, not just because there is no such thing as a 'young' pokemon, they all have the same size but because the only pokemon as powerfull as the MiTD would be legendary like Mew and Arceus which are unique, they arent a species. Someone could check out the Final fantasy monsters I guess but, once again, all the powerfull stuff in these games are individuals, not species and the MiTD has been said very often, especially in SoD to be part of a species.

[Niveus Candidus]

Rich has game design credits on the Monster Manual III, the Explorer's Handbook, the Spell Compendium, Dungeonscape and the Tome of Artifacts. With his body of work and in roads in the industry, isn't it unfair to presume the MitD was published officially before strip no. 100? It is possible Rich knew of the creature before its first publication date.

[DaggerPen]

Long list thing

Awesome! That's going to make the searching so much easier. Thankee muchly!

[Silver2195]

Weird, never heard anyone propose it before. Anyway, for the copyright, its not the like it would be the first time:

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/ndxtjhwrsz--It's-GodzillaAustin-Powers-in-Goldmember-Masi-Oka-Guy-1-Guy-2-

As long as its done as a parody copyright arent an issue. If Rich could be sued for making reference to other works he would have been a long time ago, juts think of the pokeballs! That being said, I will admit that this idea mainly worked before the «escape» part, but that comic surprised lots of us. There were just lots of things the MiTD could actually be before the Teleport, now nothing really seems to work anymore.

And Mofabulous, Rich said its a monster we could recognize. If nobody heard about it, it just doesnt work anymore. Pokemons dont work by the way, not just because there is no such thing as a 'young' pokemon, they all have the same size but because the only pokemon as powerfull as the MiTD would be legendary like Mew and Arceus which are unique, they arent a species. Someone could check out the Final fantasy monsters I guess but, once again, all the powerfull stuff in these games are individuals, not species and the MiTD has been said very often, especially in SoD to be part of a species.

The copyright issues are explained in the copyrighted ideas section. Basically, unless a creator gives permission (either to Rich specifically or as a general policy), Rich can only use copyrighted things as a parody. Brief references to Pokemon are okay, but Rich can't make a Pokemon a major character.

Edit: The Crystal Keep list seems to be incomplete; it doesn't include Proteans or Black Slaadi, for example.

[Mellisan]

The copyright issues are explained in the copyrighted ideas section. Basically, unless a creator gives permission (either to Rich specifically or as a general policy), Rich can only use copyrighted things as a parody. Brief references to Pokemon are okay, but Rich can't make a Pokemon a major character.

Edit: The Crystal Keep list seems to be incomplete; it doesn't include Proteans or Black Slaadi, for example.

They don't have the Epic Handbook monsters. I think they're pretty good otherwise.

[Silver2195]

I see. Are all Epic Level Handbook monsters in the SRD?

[Mellisan]

I see. Are all Epic Level Handbook monsters in the SRD?

Not all of them. The White and Black Slaad are not, for example. Most of them are though.

[Silver2195]

Not all of them. The White and Black Slaad are not, for example. Most of them are though.

I see. Thanks.

It's a pity, because the ELH is the book most likely to contain something like MitD.

[LightPhoenix]

Why exactly are we limiting the search to WotC published monsters? For example, Sword & Sorcery's Creature Collection I/II/III were all released prior to 2004 and compatible with 3.5E. I know it's more to sift through, but I find it much more likely at this point it is a creature from a published non-WotC source, especially since we haven't found a great fit (though several good ones).

[Niveus Candidus]

Why exactly are we limiting the search to WotC published monsters? For example, Sword & Sorcery's Creature Collection I/II/III were all released prior to 2004 and compatible with 3.5E. I know it's more to sift through, but I find it much more likely at this point it is a creature from a published non-WotC source, especially since we haven't found a great fit (though several good ones).

As I said, I am not sure that the creature must have been published prior to 2004. Also, one of the reasons Rich is allowed to use any content is because of WoTC's open game license which allows limited usage of the D&D IP. Note the lawyers that took away the mind flayer.

[Darakonis]

I've updated my post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711628&postcount=68)to include the monsters from the Epic Level Handbook.

Peace,
-Darakonis

EDIT:


Why exactly are we limiting the search to WotC published monsters? For example, Sword & Sorcery's Creature Collection I/II/III were all released prior to 2004 and compatible with 3.5E. I know it's more to sift through, but I find it much more likely at this point it is a creature from a published non-WotC source, especially since we haven't found a great fit (though several good ones).

I don't speak for everyone--the list I was compiling does not reflect the views of the creator or frequent posters of this thread.

I own most of the 3e books published by WotC and have decided to publicly post my process of elimination. I'm not going to go through all my books and Dragon/Dungeon issues page by page, so I'm setting this up to restrict my research as much as possible.

I don't trust the balance of non-WotC sources, so I don't own many Sword & Sorcery books or other non-official source books. Frankly, if the MitD is from one of those sources, then I don't particularly care what type of creature he is--no offense to anyone who is into S&S.


Rich has game design credits on the Monster Manual III, the Explorer's Handbook, the Spell Compendium, Dungeonscape and the Tome of Artifacts. With his body of work and in roads in the industry, isn't it unfair to presume the MitD was published officially before strip no. 100? It is possible Rich knew of the creature before its first publication date.
The MM3 was published in 2004, so I haven't ruled it out. I don't know what books Rich helped write, but I can add them to my list if they weren't published long after 2004.

A D&D sourcebook doesn't take three years to make--and if it did, then Rich would have no guarantee in 2004 that his monster would even make the final cuts. Would he really gamble his entire reveal on the possibility that the monster he wrote for an unpublished book won't be cut before release?

[Barlen]

@Greywolf

I have a correction for the entry about the Zodar. You write that it has no way of accounting for the MitD being unharmed by Miko's and Belkar's attacks which means you must have missed that paragraph in my post(s) about the Zodar in the last thread (which is quite understandable given the amount of information you have to sift through to make this amazing thread happen). The Zodar is invulnerable to anything but bludgeoning damage -nothing else will harm it. Not magic. Not swords and daggers. Not massive damage from having a mountain dropped on it! It really is only the circus scene that it has trouble explaining.

That could actually be its biggest problem given that the Mitd gave itself a papercut (slashing damage?) when it ate the letter it got from Miko. I think the analysis of that was that he could be epic and have a high DR that was overcome only by epic (he gave himself the papercut).

[Optimystik]

...and yet, there's no reason for such rudeness.

Agreed, is the dismissive attitude really necessary? :smallconfused:

Anyway, I'm glad my suggestion is currently top contender (though I did get the idea from someone else.) It'll be almost worth it when Rich inevitably pulls the rug out from under me :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think you guys are way over analyzing it. It's not gonna be some random obscure creature from an old D&D sourcebook most people wouldn't know. It's going to be a comical creature most likely. Something that has a known father thats large.

And that can teleport, and punch people through walls, and cause people to throw up in the circus, and...

Rich has said he is giving us clues. There is no logical reason to discard all of them but one.


Rich is not going to ruin the biggest reveal of them all by using an unknown creature. I know you guys are desperate to figure it out, but I just don't think its possible. He uses so much reference material from outside the d&d universe of stuff for his in comic work.
It is not going to be "the biggest reveal of them all". MitD, as much as I like him, is a mook. The biggest reveal was the planet inside the rift. MitD will, more than likely, be something weird most readers won't recognise and whose name will either be mentioned by Xykon, or be given away in the title for those really interested to google.


I'm gonna go with some pokemon or final fantasy monster. He's already used so much reference from those 2 games that one more wouldn't matter. If your dead set on figuring it out thats where you all should be focusing.

Please read the copyright section and section 1b - Legal Issues.


I'm betting on Protean.

* Transforming into an Umbral Blot isn't necessarily something that would occur to Xykon, so it makes sense that he wasn't blamed for the escape.
Fair's fair, it also rather unlikely. Although perfectly within plot-induced powers, it's also a bit of a Deus Ex Machina.


* None of the other Forerunners are great fits. Would a slaad really be that unrecognizable? And then there's the life cycle issues.
Well, I'd think that for most people, slaads would be unrecognisable (that's a human-shaped toad!). The life cycle issues, obviously, are a problem.


Dream Larvae are even worse (how can it have a weaker version of Worst Nightmare than normal but a more flexible version of Dreamscape?), and Dread Linnorms are just too big.

Poor Neothelid, no-one remembers it. Sure, it is too big too, but he is amongst the forerunners...



As long as its done as a parody copyright arent an issue. If Rich could be sued for making reference to other works he would have been a long time ago, juts think of the pokeballs!

MitD is not a parody of anything. He is a main antagonist. If, 1000 comics after being an antagonist, it was revealed to be Mickey Mouse, or Cloud, or Pikachu, the lawyers of the relevant company would have Rich for lunch, since for 1000 comics he was not parodying anything, and was nevertheless being sold for money. Sure, he wasn't being drawn or referenced in those comics, but a lawyer would argue (based on what Rich has written) that he was always meant to be this protected character, and thus for all purposes he was. It might weaken their case a bit, but unless Rich is planning to reveal, make a joke, and get rid of MitD in the same comic, and willing to risk the judge won't side with the more expensive lawyers in the room, he'd be in trouble anyway.


And Mofabulous, Rich said its a monster we could recognize.

Check your sources, Rich has said nothing of the sort. I think one of our regulars calls it "the telephone game".


Why exactly are we limiting the search to WotC published monsters?

We are not. As always, I encourage anyone with access to further material to propose their own creatures. For Thor's sake, we spent ten pages discussing the pros and cons of Zork's grue!


That could actually be its biggest problem given that the Mitd gave itself a papercut (slashing damage?) when it ate the letter it got from Miko. I think the analysis of that was that he could be epic and have a high DR that was overcome only by epic (he gave himself the papercut).

Eh. Tricky one that. Rule of Funny is clearly in effect there. Might be relevant, or maybe Rich needed a punchline.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

I want to add my thanks to Darakonis for that great list.
Being no DnD:er myself I can't use it but it should helpcut down the repeat discusions of old contenders.

[Gan The Grey]

Alright, I'm new to this discussion so I'm basically just going off of what I've seen on the front page.

It seems like a lot of monsters meet up in some areas but not in others. Has anyone considered a Reincarnate spell? I believe "Other" is the final choice on the list. Reasons I ask:

1. A Reincarnate spell keeps the mental faculties of the original character and replaces the physical with that of the new form.

2. A normally animal or low intelligent creature is now smart enough to talk.

3. A normally low charisma and artistically ugly creature now has a high charisma. "Ugly but beautiful"

4. A sorcerer can keep his spell casting levels and take them into his new form, retaining his ability to cast high level spells.

5. He would be a younger version of the creature.

6. This would explain why the creature is out of place in the world when discovered. Reincarnate doesn't care if the new form is native to a specific area.

7. According to myth, outside of D&D rules, when someone is reincarnated, they don't remember their past lives, but they often carry over something from these past lives that help or hinder them in their current.

8. Magical beasts with supernatural or magical abilities would get to keep those. I think. Doesn't say they go away.

Problems

1. Reincarnate says that the target remember the majority of their previous life and form. That's a problem, though I'm sure there are ways around it in D&D.

2. It makes a young adult body. This is only a problem for creatures that don't have age categories. I could be wrong, but aren't young adult dragons smaller than they would be at great wyrm stage?

3. It could be construed as needlessly complex to be guessed. But hey, it helps make for a great story.

4. It doesn't actually answer any questions, just proposes more options. Which is kinda annoying I guess lol.

[Querzis]

Check your sources, Rich has said nothing of the sort. I think one of our regulars calls it "the telephone game".

My source is your own post, section 1a in Rich commentary in War and XPs where he specifically say that its not something he made up and that its possible to guess.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My source is your own post, section 1a in Rich commentary in War and XPs where he specifically say that its not something he made up and that its possible to guess.

That's not the same as saying it can be recognised. He could have pulled MitD from an obscure third-party sourcebook published only in Idaho that he just happened to use once in a high-level adventure he played in the 90s.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

That could actually be its biggest problem given that the Mitd gave itself a papercut (slashing damage?) when it ate the letter it got from Miko. I think the analysis of that was that he could be epic and have a high DR that was overcome only by epic (he gave himself the papercut).

I understand where you're coming from with this argument but surely an epic monsters damage reduction or invulnerability -in the Zodar's case- are afforded by its hard rough exterior and not by the soft squishy bits inside that the exterior protects. If the papercut serves to imply anything about the MitD's qualities it is that he is indeed protected by a tough exterior instead of being magically shielded from harm and that he does indeed have soft squishy bits and thus is likely a living breathing creature. Personally I'm inclined to think that the papercut was there for me to enjoy:smallbiggrin:

[Lord Bingo]

That's not the same as saying it can be recognised. He could have pulled MitD from an obscure third-party sourcebook published only in Idaho that he just happened to use once in a high-level adventure he played in the 90s.

Grey Wolf

Now that would be obscure:smallbiggrin:

[willdelve4beer]

GW -

I think your physical characteristics list may be missing one item:

Weight - relatively low, actually.

Redcloak was able to lift MitD and his box into the cart unassisted. No indication is given that RC was under the affects of any buffing spells, so we're looking at something that a strength 12-16 goblin could manhandle without assistance.

[Shale]

Rich has played fast and loose enough with characters picking up other characters (see: Celia lifting Roy, Sabine lifting Nale and Thog, including weaponry) that I wouldn't take that as decisive evidence.

[Irbis]

So... who said Belkar is poor tracker now? :smallamused:

Current comic officially puts half of the monsters on this list, Linnorm chief among them, to the grave.

Incidentally, GO's amorphous tracks are a huge point 'for' now :smallbiggrin:

[Qwertystop]

So... who said Belkar is poor tracker now? :smallamused:

Current comic officially puts half of the monsters on this list, Linnorm chief among them, to the grave.

Incidentally, GO's amorphous tracks are a huge point 'for' now :smallbiggrin:

I said this in the previous thread: When MitD left those tracks, he was also dragging Roy's corpse, O-Chul's paralyzed body, and the tea set, including table. That would make any tracks hard to identify, and could also make it seem as though there were tracks (probably sluglike ones) if there weren't any.

EDIT: What do you mean by "current comic"? I don't think MitD has been in the last 19 comics at all.

[Shale]

Also, he's looking right at their feet. It's a lot easier to compare tracks when you don't have to reference anything other than what's right in front of your nose.

Edit: The idea is apparently that because Belkar knows what a dragon's feet look like when he's staring directly at them, he is an expert tracker who can recognize the tracks of a Dread Linnorm dragging a paralyzed human and a tea set at a glance.

[Kish]

Who said Belkar's a poor tracker? Who didn't say Belkar's a poor tracker? Everyone in the comic who has ever expressed a viewpoint on Belkar's tracking ability has said he's a poor tracker. Including Belkar. "...I would have pretended to be good at it from the beginning."

But, hey. He can find a bandit camp as long as he's looking for a strip club.

[Gan The Grey]

Did...did I just get ignored? *blinks*

Lame. :smallconfused:

[Shale]

He also has no ranks in Survival and a Wisdom penalty. That's a really bad tracker.

Although he may have added some when he leveled up since then. If there's one way you can get Belkar to try and improve himself, it's to make him publicly admit that he's inferior to Miko.

[Lord Bingo]

Did...did I just get ignored? *blinks*

Lame. :smallconfused:

You should not take it personally if your post was overlooked. That being said the "reincarnation" really does bring very little useful info to the table as the MitD then suddenly can be anything. In your own words, it doesn't actually answer any questions, just proposes more options. Which is kinda annoying and does not exactly incite people to comment upon it.

[Nerdanel]

I think we need to give more attention to templates. They don't all cause drastic changes to the base creature's appearance. Here are some interesting templates:

Phrenic:
Reason: Explains Escape! (Psionic Teleport psi-like ability)
Changes in Appearance: Nothing!
Base Creature Limitations: Non-mindless & non-psionic

Half-Earth Elemental:
Reason: Explains Earthquake (Earthquake SLA)
Changes in Appearance: "Looks normal except for little things, such as the way their eyes gleam like gemstones"
Base Creature Limitations: Corporeal, Int 4+

Fetch:
Reason: Explains the tower scene (Telekinesis SLA), explains the circus scene (Unnerving Gaze)
Changes in Appearance: Physically weak looking, "pale, bluish or ashen skin", sad eyes & melodious voice
Base Creature Limitations: Giant, Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, father was a ghost

I think Phrenic is the most likely explanation for Escape, as it explains why Xykon didn't suspect the MitD and doesn't require numerous class levels, and therefore is a template the MitD is likely to have. (Levels in Wilder gained by leeching passively on Xykon and Redcloak's XP gains also have a lot of explanatory power.) I think Half-Earth Elemental is a plausible template for the MitD to have. I think Fetch isn't too likely and has a hard time fitting due to the steep requirements, although it does have more than one appropriate ability.

By the way, you can't template a potted plant into the MitD unless you invent new templates. You can do a lot with templates, but not everything. For example, I am not aware of a template that makes the creature sleep a lot unless Fetch's Ghost Form, which leaves the body comatose, is being shown that way. Half-Troll is the only fitting template that I know of that can explain the appetite.

I think we should look into which base creatures can be templated away to forerunnerhood, preferably with only one or two templates, and which don't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did...did I just get ignored? *blinks*

Lame. :smallconfused:

For what is worth, I liked your comment. I just have nothing to add. But you may find it yanked and added in some form to the first post when page 10 rolls around, if that makes you feel better.


GW -

I think your physical characteristics list may be missing one item:

Weight - relatively low, actually.

Redcloak was able to lift MitD and his box into the cart unassisted. No indication is given that RC was under the affects of any buffing spells, so we're looking at something that a strength 12-16 goblin could manhandle without assistance.

We've had this discussion before, and no conclusion was reached that wasn't already included in the size. To be clear: a cleric that is not melee oriented like RC probably wouldn't be able to lift the cage even if it was empty, regardless of what's inside. Besides, weight in D&D is a product of size, so by pointing out what his size is, it's weight is a given.

It was used as partial pro for the gibbering orb, though, since the GO would float (not fly, actually buoyant in air. Flying wouldn't change the weight).

Grey Wolf

[Skorj]

Awesome start to the new thread Grey Wolf - thanks for the hard work!


That's not the same as saying it can be recognised. He could have pulled MitD from an obscure third-party sourcebook published only in Idaho that he just happened to use once in a high-level adventure he played in the 90s.

Grey Wolf

A good example of this is my first proposal, the Tyranohamstersaurus (a carniverous giant space hamster of note). It doesn't fit recent clues, but it's an example of somehting that would be "guessable" but quite obscure and not recognizable from the artwork.

In this example, the whole "giant space hamster thing" would turn describing what the MitD is into a joke. There are plenty of ways that Rich can play the reveal, and making the MitD recognizable is just one of them. Making the explanation a joke is another. Making him still a mystery once we see him is yet another.

There's just no reason to think the MitD will be some iconic critter that 90% of the fans will recognize from a stick-figure drawing, or even from his (species) name.

On a different note: the problem with Darakonis's list is that all of the non SRD/OGL monsters run into the same copyright issues (which are weaker than trademark issues, but still a real concern). In fact, don't all of the front runners have this copyright issue?

(BTW, Grey Wolf, the term you want is "front runners", not "forerunners". Also "pitiful range", not "pitiable range". :smallsmile:)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On a different note: the problem with Darakonis's list is that all of the non SRD/OGL monsters run into the same copyright issues (which are weaker than trademark issues, but still a real concern). In fact, don't all of the front runners have this copyright issue?

Oh, Thor, please don't let this turn into another discussion on IP issues. I am still nursing a headache from the last one. From what I could understand of the license used by WotC, the most protected of their creatures are released as something not quite trademarked (but almost) whose primary purpose seems to be to stop other roleplaying games from using them. It is unclear to me (and no IP lawyer has come forward to help) if the protection extends to stories created from the material like Rich is doing. But I can offer a counter example: every RPG is a narrative, collaboratively created, using those creatures. A company cannot sell you material to create those stories, and then forbid you from using such material through IP. That logic makes me think Rich may be in safe ground when using any WotC published material (but do not for a moment think that lawyers and IP are logical, so take with the requisite grain of salt).


(BTW, Grey Wolf, the term you want is "front runners", not "forerunners". Also "pitiful range", not "pitiable range". :smallsmile:)

I'll keep that in mind. Changing the second might be easier than changing the first, though. However, I could argue that forerunners is appropriate, based on the fact that they run before, and kind of announce, the real answer :), and pitiable (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/pitiable) and pitiful are synonyms.

Grey Wolf

[Skorj]

A company cannot sell you material to create those stories, and then forbid you from using such material through IP. That logic makes me think Rich may be in safe ground when using any WotC published material (but do not for a moment think that lawyers and IP are logical, so take with the requisite grain of salt).

I'm not an IP lawyer, but I work closely with them in my day job. No reason to examine this in headache-inducing depth, but this particular point is wrong in an important way. Copyright governs the right to distribute, not create. When playing an RPG with friends we're creating a derivitive work, but not distributing it. You can't argue from that to a published comic.

But, even so, it's a still a "weak clue": the MitD could be e.g., The Incredible Hulk(TM) - if Rich has licensed it from Marvel Comics. Unlikely in that example, but not so unlikely for older sourcebook material given Rich's connections. At the very least, if the MitD is from a sourcebook then I'd bet Rich thinks the creator wouldn't object.

In short, "copyright" is as big a problem for the front runners as for a lot of other suggestions - "copyright unrelated to D&D" is a stronger reason to rule something out than "copyright" alone. Which I guess is about what you said, so nevermind. :smallbiggrin:

[Brendan]

It would be kind of funny if WotC or some 3.5 related system agreed to release a new book which rich could contribute one monster to and published it a week before publishing the big reveal.

Technically, he could have thought of it by strip 100 and it automatically would fit all criteria. That, or, WotC agreed to add his campaign setting to the OGL material and it contained the MitD creature.

[RndmNumGen]

What about a Grue? I know it was suggested before, but was dismissed because grues hate light and MitD wants to be lit up. But then again, I was reading this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) and MitD said he didn't mind if being lit up hurt.

[DaggerPen]

What about a Grue? I know it was suggested before, but was dismissed because grues hate light and MitD wants to be lit up. But then again, I was reading this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) and MitD said he didn't mind if being lit up hurt.

True, but I think general consensus is still that it's too poorly defined and doesn't really explain the escape.

[Kranden]

Everybody knows the MITD is a

http://blog.mightymerchant.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/404-image.jpg

[Shale]

True, but I think general consensus is still that it's too poorly defined and doesn't really explain the escape.

Plus the archons' light is an attack - it hurts everybody, grue or un-grue. MitD talked about having been/wanting to be lit up before that, and never mentioned that it could possibly hurt.

[Zolkabro]

In my opinion, main contenders, in order:
1. Class Levels
2. Reincarnation
3. White Slaad

[RndmNumGen]

Plus the archons' light is an attack - it hurts everybody, grue or un-grue. MitD talked about having been/wanting to be lit up before that, and never mentioned that it could possibly hurt.

Oh. I didn't know that.

It's still possible, I guess. Nothing really points to it being a grue then, but even poorly-defined, grues are known for their tremendous strength and appetite.

Also, I've seen incarnations of grues where they had magical abilities, teleport-like abilities being one of them(well, it was closer to the shadowdancer's ability, but still leaves the possibility).

[Darakonis]

To say the Grue has no way of explaining the escape is false.

To say the Grue has no good way of explaining the escape is true.

Grues are believed by some to possess some form of teleportation--otherwise, why haven't any grues been cornered in a dead-end corridor by an adventurer with a torch? Perhaps it is some form of shadow-jump, who knows. The grue is a joke monster, so it's impossible to make any convincing arguments either for or against the grue. See: Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlyingSpaghettiMonster).

You can neither prove nor disprove the grue. You can only believe in the grue :smallamused:

Peace,
-Darakonis

[PsychoticDwarf]

In my opinion, main contenders, in order:
1. Class Levels
2. Reincarnation
3. White Slaad

don't think it's a white slaad. a white slaad has an intelligence of 26, you could say that MitD is young, but a white slaad has a strength of 36, so it probably couldn't create such a major earthquake with a small tap on the ground.

Also, class levels seem unlikely. Whenever did MitD fight anything to gain exp? he was stuck in a box in a circus, then in darkness because of xykon.

[Nerdanel]

Also, class levels seem unlikely. Whenever did MitD fight anything to gain exp? he was stuck in a box in a circus, then in darkness because of xykon.

He was in the party while other people defeated formidable encounters, such as the ones in Xykon's old tower.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In my opinion, main contenders, in order:
1. Class Levels
2. Reincarnation
3. White Slaad

The first two are not contenders, they're something you add to a bad contender to make it fit the clues. Also, I have to wonder why you'd prefer class levels to the much better template stack. They are exactly the same in their execution - something you add to a non-fitting monster to make it fit - except at least template stack only requires weird parents, rather than MitD having a backstory of gaining 18 levels that is in direct contradiction with MitD's memories (which go back to being with his dad).

My personal problem with reincarnation (and given how this thread has been I will repeat: my personal problem) is that if Rich uses it it will feel like a very, very cheap asspull. "Yes, he is a minotaur, but you see, he's actually Archmage Bulderwark, reincarnated as a minotaur" is not a good literary technique, IMnphO.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

Yeah, sounds like what a kid DM would do.
And Rich is too damn smart and skilled to such a thing!

[Sc00by]

I feel that I must point out that it's almost certainly not inherently 'evil'. (Demon, Devil, etc)

An awakened animal seems to fit, possibly with a template and/or some kind of 1/month(week/day?) wish or miracle ability.

I can't help feeling that the need to sleep after performing a 'miracle' is really quite important. (I know it's probably a reason Tarrasque gets mentioned a lot).

Also his Dad is almost certainly something iconic that is famous for eating a lot. Or else, why mention it? Is the MitD Mr Greedy's (http://www.themistermen.co.uk/mr_men/mr_greedy.html) love child?! :smalleek: or possibly his dad is Homer Simpson? :smallbiggrin:

I jest at the end, but the point is a serious one.

[Lord Bingo]

Just a thought regarding the reincarnation thing:

If the MitD is a reincarnated creature and all of his abilities stem from his original form how exactly would that help us. Contrary to the previous statement in all actuality it does not broaden the options at all. We would still be trying to figure out what the MitD really is, only now the question would be what he was BEFORE he was reincarnated. The body in which he would have been reincarnated would be more or less inconsequential.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just a thought regarding the reincarnation thing:

If the MitD is a reincarnated creature and all of his abilities stem from his original form how exactly would that help us. Contrary to the previous statement in all actuality it does not broaden the options at all. We would still be trying to figure out what the MitD really is, only now the question would be what he was BEFORE he was reincarnated. The body in which he would have been reincarnated would be more or less inconsequential.

Not quite. As per my example, you could use it to combine two non-fitting concepts into one that did fit every clue. You use a very strong, very ugly creature, and give it a previous life in which he had access to high-level spells. Of course, Occam's razor is going to be ripping any such idea to threads, but if that's what makes them happy...

Grey Wolf

[Mawhrin Skel]

There seems to be much mention of Rich's words "it is possible to guess". Next week's lottery numbers are possible to guess.

More usefully, Rich "trusts someone will figure it out eventually", i.e. deduce MiTD's nature.

Class levels on a base creature or a reincarnation may be possible to guess (formian with 17 sorceror levels!) but leave open far too many possibilities to deduce the correct answer.

[Ancalagon]

Actually, I like the class-level theory.

It just has one very major flaw: It explains the "peak power" (wish or miracle) but leaves out all others from level 1 to 20.

You could even argue that as NPC, the MitD got its 20 sorcerer or cleric levels "for free" (just because "its blood is that strong" or because a god fancies that creature that much etc).

So having "some strong monster" being able to access wish/miracle due to 18 class levels is a very good explanation. It just leaves all those other 17 levels to be totally unaccounted for.

I find it unlikely a monster with class levels shows ONLY one peak ability and nothing else from that class. So, sadly, I think I have to forget about that theory again and are left with "Godzilla" or whatever the runner up is at the moment.

[Alchemist_Fire]

Did...did I just get ignored? *blinks*

Lame. :smallconfused:

Regarding your older post: Reincarnate fails the simplicity test - Rich has implied that the creature would be moderately guessable. Though the suggestion can allow for explanations of most of the evidence, its complexity is on par with templates and can be rejected.

Regarding class levels: Redcloak asks rhetorically if the MitD gained 5 levels in cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html). Does this suggest that Redcloak deems it feasible for the MitD to gain class levels? That would be explained by the MitD already having levels in something else.

Again, an untestable hypothesis without more evidence.

[Ancalagon]

Regarding class levels: Redcloak asks rhetorically if the MitD gained 5 levels in cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html). Does this suggest that Redcloak deems it feasible for the MitD to gain class levels? That would be explained by the MitD already having levels in something else.

I think that was just a snarky comment and also meant to say, as Redcloak assumes the MitD does not have those levels in cleric, that the MitD cannot help

[Nerdanel]

I think we have collectively pretty much exhausted the pool of potential unchanged creatures, and none of them fits without problems. This leaves class levels and templates, and I think templates are more likely, as they don't give out so many abilities that the MitD hasn't been shown to have.

Anyway, if the MitD indeed has class levels, my top contender is Wilder. The fluff goes well with the MitD not understanding his own power and the Psychic Enervation class feature can explain the fatigue after power-use. That would require a decently high Charisma though, but that's not impossible based on what we know of him. I think the mental stat the absence of which best defines the MitD is Wisdom.

[Legislat]

Since Rich has shown us the possibility of a half-breed templates (Like our beloved half ogre-half dragon) can anybody guess something about it? I am not particulary good at this, but i like half-breed theory very much, just for the fun of it. Can he actually be half-something? Did anybody suggest something like that before? Sorry if i missed it.

[Nerdanel]

There are several halfbreed (and other) templates around. Half-Earth Elemental is a particularly good one, as it gives a way for the MitD to cause an Earthquake 1/day as per the spell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Since Rich has shown us the possibility of a half-breed templates (Like our beloved half ogre-half dragon) can anybody guess something about it? I am not particulary good at this, but i like half-breed theory very much, just for the fun of it. Can he actually be half-something? Did anybody suggest something like that before? Sorry if i missed it.

That's what templates are for.

Speaking of which, I am very suspect of a logical reasoning that goes thus: "our current best fits all require a bit of stretching of the evidence, thus we must instead focus on concepts for which we have no evidence at all". I'm fairly certain that, at this point, the biggest criticism that can be leveled against the protean is that he was lucky to be changing into an umbral blot just when he needed to.

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

Also, class levels seem unlikely. Whenever did MitD fight anything to gain exp? he was stuck in a box in a circus, then in darkness because of xykon.
He was in the party while other people defeated formidable encounters, such as the ones in Xykon's old tower.

Not sure if somebody already said this:
MitD almost certainly has some sort of amnesia, because he (A) Is not native to the rain forest, but thinks he was always there; and (B) he does not even know what he is, but I would think ANYTHING sentient would know its own species (Thog, for example). This memory loss could also include his adventuring, or whatever he did to gain class levels if he has them, as D&D (correct me if I'm wrong) does not say that you lose all of your class levels if you forget your training. This would also possibly allow a dramatic reveal where MitD regains his memories and throws off the darkness (or maybe regains his memory by getting out of the darkness, if there is any creature whose intelligence is based on illumination)(the latter would bring a new meaning to "bright idea" and the light bulb over the head.

[Ancalagon]

That... and powerful NPCs often "cheat" with their xp.

The story needs a high cleric with ten or fifteen levels? *Pop*... there it is. "Oh, and he probably earned the xp during his adventurer career back when he was young. Now, where was I with the plot?"

[pendell]

Read through the opening post and I didn't see it, so I'll throw it out:

The MITD feels tired after doing the earth stomp and goes to sleep after helping O-chul escape.

From which follows the question:

What kind of power could reasonably perform both these actions and also cause the user to either feel sleepy or actually fall asleep?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Some deity-level powers have a "rest requirement" - the creature must rest after using the power.

Low rank deity unaware of its divinity might be a possibility.

Alter Reality, for example, is like a slightly better wish- and if used to duplicate metamagic as well, has a rest requirement.

[Mawhrin Skel]

I think we have collectively pretty much exhausted the pool of potential unchanged creatures

I wasn't aware anyone had gone through all the Dragon/Dungeon magazine back issues.

How many third party source books are there?


Low rank deity unaware of its divinity might be a possibility.

A survivor from the Eastern pantheon perhaps. The existence of the snarl world throws our understanding of their end (or even whether they ever existed) into doubt.

Perhaps whatever happened to that pantheon could explain a survivor's amnesia.

A deity taking the form of an animal could lead the hunters and Red Cloak to incorrectly identify it.

Any form of shape changing though makes the "figure it out" (as opposed to "shot in the dark and fluke hit") prediction from Rich less likely to be met.

[pendell]

Indeed. Just did a quick SRD check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm)

I note that there are a couple divine abilities which allow a deity to shapeshift permanently into animal form.

So it is plausible that the MITD is a lesser-rank deity shapechanged into an animal form. This would explain A) why the big game hunters recognized it (it is an animal form, and they are animal experts) and B) why Xykon was unaware of the 'escape' ability (recognizing the animal form but not the shapechanged divinity, Xykon recognizes the creature but isn't aware of it's hidden power, or Xykon would have immediately suspected MITD in the disappearance of O-chul and V).

Counter-argument: In SOD, Xykon puts a suggestion spell on the MITD. Wouldn't a deity-class simply shrug that magic off? Ah ... only if it actually attempted to resist, perhaps.

What OTHER powers have a rest requirement? Where can I look that up?

Because I agree with Grey Wolf on this: This is the same thing as with class levels. We're adding abilities to make a bad contender into a good one. It could be anything, if it's a lesser divinity. I'd much rather find a single monster type which possesses all the appropriate abilities and powers natively. I further believe -- based on the appearance in the anachronistic circus -- that it must be from 3.0 or earlier.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zelthax]

Just something:

In section 1c, lotho's explanation got me thinking- That is a wonderful way to give a lower bound, but something just keeps nagging at my mind.

Xykon states that nothing in the tower should be scarier than the MitD, giving a feasible "The highest CR in this tower is the lowest CR possible for the MitD", but the utter shock at the power of the ABD appearing seems to shake my confidence in this theory.

In the Bonus strips for NCftPB, specifically 194a, Xykon and Redcloak are saved by a Deus ex Machina (Shelby). They are apparently unaware of the abilities of said ASD (spell resistance, sorcery). Seeing as how the aforementioned Xykon statement takes place before the party even enters the dungeon, I think that the shock of our dragon maybe undermines said statement.

Now, granted, the MitD wasn't there for that battle, and I'm not claiming that the Dragon would have defeated the MitD (or the other way around), but I am saying that Xykon's knowledge of the tower may not be fully reliable for setting a lower CR bound. I think that we can at least set the CR at the Guard monster, because Xykon was fully aware of it when he gave his statement.

[Nerdanel]

When we are talking about the "can be guessed" criterion, which is a bigger stretch: a simple monster houseruled or rules-lawyered to go against the normal reading of the stat block, or a combination of intact elements?

I don't know.

[Ancalagon]

The MITD feels tired after doing the earth stomp and goes to sleep after helping O-chul escape.

I still think the latter was "pretending to sleep".

[PsychoticDwarf]

Has anyone come close to discerning MitD's alignment?

Possibilities:

Neutral Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
True Neutral
Impulsive

[PsychoticDwarf]

More Possibilities:
Neutral Good with Chaotic or lawful tendencies
Lawful Neutral with good or evil tendencies

[Darakonis]

I wasn't aware anyone had gone through all the Dragon/Dungeon magazine back issues.
Yeah, yeah, I'll get to it... Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of your--err, waitaminute...

I'll get to it eventually. I'm starting by compiling a list of monsters above CR 14.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Mawhrin Skel]

When we are talking about the "can be guessed" criterion, which is a bigger stretch: a simple monster houseruled or rules-lawyered to go against the normal reading of the stat block, or a combination of intact elements?

I don't know.

Can we please replace the "can be guessed" criterion with the "can be figured out" criterion? The latter is much stronger. A potted plant with 18 levels in sorcerer could be guessed but not "figured out".

To answer your question: personally I'd go with the latter option. House ruling abilities feels like too much of a cheat.

[TheAnomally]

I was reading the whole comic over again, trying to make a list of all of the MitD appearances (which I'm still doing... Slowly) when I noticed something interesting.

I saw in a previous thread that people pointed out that MitD was smaller in strip #105 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) than in his other appearances, and nothing was ever made of it, and I believe it was dismissed because people believed it was an art mistake.

Well, I don't know if anyone noticed this, but he was also smaller in #106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)

And #109 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html)

Possibly in #110 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) (it was hard for me to tell)

And #113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) (in background of the first panel)

And in #114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) (in panels 2 and 3 and 4. He seems to grow back to normal height in panel 6).

And he's back to normal by the start of #117. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html)

I don't know about you, but I've never heard of an art mistake that spans 5-6 strips. But, who knows? Maybe he was far away from the rest of the characters, so he only appeared small? But that seems like a poor art decision, since MitD is in the dark and the reader can't tell how close he's standing. I don't know what to make of it.

I'm not a D&D expert, so I thought the rest of you might make something out of this. If he really is smaller and it's not just me making things bigger than they really are, that is (no pun intended).

[PsychoticDwarf]

He's like crouching, or something.

[Darcy]

Has anyone come close to discerning MitD's alignment?

Possibilities:

Neutral Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
True Neutral
Impulsive

O-Chul called him "good", and he would know. :smallbiggrin: Uh, I don't really know.

[Silver2195]

When we are talking about the "can be guessed" criterion, which is a bigger stretch: a simple monster houseruled or rules-lawyered to go against the normal reading of the stat block, or a combination of intact elements?

I don't know.

Depends on the degree of rules-lawyering/combining involved. Protean works just fine without either, though.

[Gift Jeraff]

Glad to see my suggestion for the thread title being used! (Side-note: I just realized I made an accidental pun--the full quote is "It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." I was just combining two popular ideas!)

Has anyone come close to discerning MitD's alignment?

Possibilities:

Neutral Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
True Neutral
Impulsive
It's really not worth trying to pin down anyone's alignment unless it's flat-out stated in the comic, but my guess would be True Neutral: He's Good at heart, but has never really done anything Good before O-Chul's escape; he associates with Evil people, but has never really done anything Evil; he has a Lawful obedience to everyone, while also being somewhat Elan-ish in regards to Chaos.

[PsychoticDwarf]

Glad to see my suggestion for the thread title being used! (Side-note: I just realized I made an accidental pun--the full quote is "It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." I was just combining two popular ideas!)

It's really not worth trying to pin down anyone's alignment unless it's flat-out stated in the comic, but my guess would be True Neutral: He's Good at heart, but has never really done anything Good before O-Chul's escape; he associates with Evil people, but has never really done anything Evil; he has a Lawful obedience to everyone, while also being somewhat Elan-ish in regards to Chaos.

You can eliminate every possibility but one, and even if you can't, the less possible alignments there are, the fewer monsters MitD could be.

[DaggerPen]

You can eliminate every possibility but one, and even if you can't, the less possible alignments there are, the fewer monsters MitD could be.

Unless MitD is an exception to the general alignment of his species. I mean, even the "always some alignment" species have some exceptions, IIRC, and the fact that Xykon and co., Redcloak especially, expect MitD to be scary and eat kids and stuff actually seems to me to indicate that MitD's species is usually evil, or neutral at best. Either way, though, I don't really think it matters, because in the first place, it's really hard to narrow down a character's alignment unless it's stated in-comic, and second off, there's no concrete indication as to whether the MitD shares his creature type's usual alignment.

[Valifor]

hey guys, i just joined the forum to post in this thread cuz i realized something. in the first page of this thread, the CR section says that level 18 or higher CR is preferred, but doesn't it HAVE to be epic? MitD teleported V and O'Chul out of a cloistered area (and O'Chul was definitely cloistered as well). doesn't this mean that MitD has to be epic, and probably at least at Xykon's level, if not higher? this would also essentially completely rule out one of the forerunners, neothelid. it's not an epic creature and couldn't be unless insanely upgraded. I'm not sure if this has been pointed out before, but it's an issue i just not noticed while reading thru the known info about MitD. Thoughts on it anyone?

[DaggerPen]

hey guys, i just joined the forum to post in this thread cuz i realized something. in the first page of this thread, the CR section says that level 18 or higher CR is preferred, but doesn't it HAVE to be epic? MitD teleported V and O'Chul out of a cloistered area (and O'Chul was definitely cloistered as well). doesn't this mean that MitD has to be epic, and probably at least at Xykon's level, if not higher? this would also essentially completely rule out one of the forerunners, neothelid. it's not an epic creature and couldn't be unless insanely upgraded. I'm not sure if this has been pointed out before, but it's an issue i just not noticed while reading thru the known info about MitD. Thoughts on it anyone?

Doesn't the Cloister only work for people outside teleporting in, rather than for any teleportation in or out?

[Magicyop]

Actually, Snarl Jr., now that I've been thinking about it, kinda fits. Like, perfectly.

Putting aside for a moment that Rich said "It's not something I made up just for the story", and thinking this over, I can't think of ANY holes.

His dad ate a LOT. Isn't the Snarl a hungry devouring creature? Being made of deific hostility and frustration, it probably has godlike powers, letting it cause the "Escape", but the fact that it is born of chaos could make it so he couldn't do it again. The Snarl probably has both insane DR and strength. Plus, for me, that would be an exciting reveal. It would be something that makes sense and would be really cool.

What if we're misinterpreting Rich's statement? I realize there's not a LOT of room for misinterpretation, but what if he just meant that it would not be a MacGuffin made up just for the creature in the darkness. If he thought up a greater story reason, it might still be a creature he invented, as long as he didn't invent it just for the MitD.

I dunno. I'm probably wrong. But it seems like it fits to me.

[Valifor]

Doesn't the Cloister only work for people outside teleporting in, rather than for any teleportation in or out?

that's one way of interpreting it i guess, but i kinda figured it was more like any teleporting or scrying or whatnot that's not being casted by the caster of cloister. like Xykon can scry and teleport as he pleases, but wizards in the resistance can't do so, whether in or out. it kinda depends on how the spell works, which we don't know exactly. i just interpreted it as any and all teleporting by creatures not allowed by Xykon would be blocked. i suppose i could be wrong though.

[Mellisan]

that's one way of interpreting it i guess, but i kinda figured it was more like any teleporting or scrying or whatnot that's not being casted by the caster of cloister. like Xykon can scry and teleport as he pleases, but wizards in the resistance can't do so, whether in or out. it kinda depends on how the spell works, which we don't know exactly. i just interpreted it as any and all teleporting by creatures not allowed by Xykon would be blocked. i suppose i could be wrong though.

thankfully the exposition fairy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) can answer the question. :-)

Celia states pretty clearly the spell only blocks travel or divination going from outside the cloister into the cloister.

[Valifor]

thankfully the exposition fairy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) can answer the question. :-)

Celia states pretty clearly the spell only blocks travel or divination going from outside the cloister into the cloister.

ah, thank you. that's my bad, missed that i guess, thanks for clearing that up. nevermind then :smalltongue:

[robertc99]

Theres a couple of things that I have a hunch might be relevant to the identification of MITD that don't appear to have been discussed. Of course theres an enormous amount of MitD threads and entirely feasible its been discussed and I just missed it.

In SoD theres some text along the following lines. Sorry for the vagueness, I don't have my copy of SoD handy.
MITD is asked if he likes it here in the circus. MITD replies that its hard to have so many people looking at him.

The simple interpretation is that he's just shy.

But an alternative interpretation is that its hard because being looked at triggers a power. And we know that using his powers tires him.
Possibilities for the power in question include; he's normally invisible and requires a power to form a visible form.
Or he's got a power that causes "fear" or equivalent effect when he seen.

The other thing is his persistent inability to see (or remember) the existance of the Gate.
That could just be humour.
But maybe its supposed to be a clue.

Of course if it is a clue, I have no real idea what it means.
What sort of creature would be unable to see the gate.
Maybe because the gate was created to contain the Snarl, creatures related to the Snarl can't see it? Which ties in the "son of the Snarl" proposal that I think was floated at one stage.
Similarly, the snarl is basically equivalent in power to a god. So maybe things related to deities can't see it.

I admit their both pretty thin. But so are most of the hare brained idea's tossed around here :-).
Anyone got anything to add?

[Zelthax]

Actually, Snarl Jr., now that I've been thinking about it, kinda fits. Like, perfectly.

Putting aside for a moment that Rich said "It's not something I made up just for the story", and thinking this over, I can't think of ANY holes.

His dad ate a LOT. Isn't the Snarl a hungry devouring creature? Being made of deific hostility and frustration, it probably has godlike powers, letting it cause the "Escape", but the fact that it is born of chaos could make it so he couldn't do it again. The Snarl probably has both insane DR and strength. Plus, for me, that would be an exciting reveal. It would be something that makes sense and would be really cool.

What if we're misinterpreting Rich's statement? I realize there's not a LOT of room for misinterpretation, but what if he just meant that it would not be a MacGuffin made up just for the creature in the darkness. If he thought up a greater story reason, it might still be a creature he invented, as long as he didn't invent it just for the MitD.

I dunno. I'm probably wrong. But it seems like it fits to me.

The hunters recognized it in SoD.

This exact idea has been put forward before, but it just cannot work. The secret of the gates was so well kept that there is no possible way that Standard Hunters could know about them, much less the Snarl, and even less the possibility that there is a Snarl Junior, or even that there are enough Snarl Jrs to warrant the Hunters to remark "It's one of those."

I'm sorry, but the Snarl Jr. has to be put to bed. Even if we disregard the explicit remark by The Giant, the canon just doesn't back it up.

Good thought, though.

[Incendax]

I really have to give my vote to the Grue.

The abilities of the Grue are never explained and could easily contain spell-like abilities. The Grue seems to be anywhere in the dungeon that he needs to be, and teleportation powers would facilitate that. The Grue can easily defeat even the strongest fighter, the smartest wizard, or the wisest cleric. It's only hangup is the psychological avoidance of light.

[RndmNumGen]

The grue is my current favorite. It fulfills all of the criteria with the exception of wanting to be lit up, yet I have seen games were while light hurts grues, greatly diminishes their strength, etc., but isn't actually lethal (well prolonged exposure is, but they could be out for around half an hour before being in mortal danger). This also might explain why being shown off at the circus made MitD tired.

The problem is we know so little about grues, and there are so many variants, that it is practically by definition a wildcard. There is absolutely no way we can say "Yep, MitD is a Grue, because of this and this". I guess we can't really say that about any monster, but the Grue is so obscure that it is even moreso.

[Shale]

Problem 1: The grue is copyrighted, and not by Wizards of the Coast. Using it would hit the same issues as using Snorlax, albeit without Nintendo's deep pockets.

Problem 2: The defining characteristic of a grue is that it hates the light and is caused real physical damage by it. Depending on the portrayal a grue can be instantly killed by light. MitD's defining characteristic is being covered in darkness against its will, and that only recently. A grue that wants to be lit up fits about as well as a cyclops with two eyes, especially since nobody who knows what MitD is has implied in any way that he wouldn't or shouldn't want to leave the darkness.

Problem 3: Nobody knows what a grue looks like - again, it's a defining characteristic, right there in the original blurb from Zork - because of the whole "never leaves the darkness" thing. And yet Redcloak recognizes MitD on sight, as do (with slightly more justification) the Big Game Hunters. As far as I know, Zork grues have never been in a published D&D manual - the D&D grue is an elemental, which MitD decisively is not.

Problem 4: The escape would be an enormous ass-pull for a grue. Yes, Zork never said they couldn't teleport. It also never said they couldn't shoot ice-rays from their teeth and crap out diamonds. Both have exactly as much basis.

[mofabulous]

The Grue is not even a possibility

" Much is made of the idea that grues have such an aversion to light that no one has ever seen one and it is impossible to gain a firsthand physical description of one and that, conversely, grues are such formidable predators that light is the only possible means of avoiding them "

Thats an excerpt from the wiki definition of a Grue. We've seen quite a few scenes where the MITD wants to be lit up.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

and

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html


Going to reiterate my previous post and say the MITD is a pokemon or final fantasy monster. Something well known to gamers. Since grey wolf or whatever his name was will once again deny it by claiming copyright laws I will counter by the simple logic that this is a child. The son of some creature from one of those 2 games. Not the actual named creature from those games, but the son which is richs own creation. Not violating any copyright there.

[Jabberwok]

"Ygramul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_The_Neverending_Story)" from the NeverEnding Story

"Ygramul's poison is deadly and kills within one hour, but grants the victim the ability to teleport to any location within the land of Fantastica before succumbing to its effects."

This might explain the escape scene. although both V and O'chul should have died in an hour without being healed... were they healed right after?

The rest...is hard since it's not a D&D creature and doesn't have stats

Just a thought

[Darakonis]

Since grey wolf or whatever his name was will once again deny it by claiming copyright laws I will counter by the simple logic that this is a child. The son of some creature from one of those 2 games. Not the actual named creature from those games, but the son which is richs own creation. Not violating any copyright there.
Hear that, whatever-his-name-was? You can't possibly claim copyright on the combination of two copyrighted ideas! The idea of being sued by two independent entities is completely unheard of.

Oh wait...

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Incendax]

Problem 1:This is easily explained by not actually revealing that the MitD is the Grue until such a time as legal rights for its use are obtained.

Problem 2:I defy you to find a canon example of the Grue being killed by light. It is entirely possible the aversion to light is psychological and the only real 'damage' is emotional in nature.

Problem 3:This is a real and reasonable objection, though it is not beyond the realm of possibility that non-visual cues or the specific lack of visual cues allow the characters in the story to identify the Grue.

Problem 4:The Grue will kill you even if you're behind locked doors, in ancient lava tunnels, and other seemingly inaccessible locations. Teleportation is actually one of the most reasonable explanations for how the Grue gets around.

[Shale]

I defy you to find a canon example of the Grue being killed by light. It is entirely possible the aversion to light is psychological and the only real 'damage' is emotional in nature.

Spellbreaker.

[Darakonis]

I recommend that anyone who wishes to make any further arguments either for or against the grue should read the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_%28monster%29).

Included is a physical description. Of sorts.

If you insist on continuing the grue discussion, please get the facts straight :)

Sorry, I'm just a little nitpicky because I gave a rather extensive dissertation on the grue's candidature in the previous MitD thread, and it pains me to see people make arguments based on but a small portion of the facts.

That being said... I'll repeat--the grue, by its nature, can neither be proved nor disproved, so there is no point in further discussing it.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Nerdanel]

Actually, Snarl Jr., now that I've been thinking about it, kinda fits. Like, perfectly.

Putting aside for a moment that Rich said "It's not something I made up just for the story", and thinking this over, I can't think of ANY holes.

His dad ate a LOT. Isn't the Snarl a hungry devouring creature? Being made of deific hostility and frustration, it probably has godlike powers, letting it cause the "Escape", but the fact that it is born of chaos could make it so he couldn't do it again. The Snarl probably has both insane DR and strength. Plus, for me, that would be an exciting reveal. It would be something that makes sense and would be really cool.

What if we're misinterpreting Rich's statement? I realize there's not a LOT of room for misinterpretation, but what if he just meant that it would not be a MacGuffin made up just for the creature in the darkness. If he thought up a greater story reason, it might still be a creature he invented, as long as he didn't invent it just for the MitD.

I dunno. I'm probably wrong. But it seems like it fits to me.

If the MitD is the Snarl Jr. he can't be JUST the Snarl Jr. Since he isn't something Rich made up, if he is the Snarl Jr., he has to be some known monster that could have had the Snarl as its father. The prime candidate for this is the Dream Larva, the only monster in the Abomination class that could be conceivably rules-lawyered to be vulnerable to mind-affecting spells in certain situations, among other things.

By the way, since the Dream Larva has a power that makes it look different to every creature viewing it, it fits the semi-clue about it being hard to be seen by many people at once.

[LuPuWei]

Has anyone said Godzilla/SonofGodzilla yet? :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Low rank deity unaware of its divinity might be a possibility.

Divinity is out since gods are immune to mind-affecting spells (and no, it is not "optional" to be affected or not).


I was reading the whole comic over again, trying to make a list of all of the MitD appearances (which I'm still doing... Slowly) when I noticed something interesting.

You may start here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6259526&postcount=68). It's not being maintained, but it might help you anyway. The link is posted in section 1c.


His dad ate a LOT. Isn't the Snarl a hungry devouring creature?

No, Snarl has not been seen eating anything. Ripping gods and people to threads, yes. Eating, no.

Also, notice that your entire theory is based on this one thing, and that it is powerful. Not sure how that means it "fits perfectly". And of course, Rich's words specifically discard it.


Going to reiterate my previous post and say the MITD is a pokemon or final fantasy monster. Something well known to gamers. Since grey wolf or whatever his name was will once again deny it by claiming copyright laws I will counter by the simple logic that this is a child. The son of some creature from one of those 2 games. Not the actual named creature from those games, but the son which is richs own creation. Not violating any copyright there.

... I hope for your sake you never try to do something that absurd and sell it for money, because they will sue you, and they will win.

At any rate, Rich has something to say about that:

That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story.


Has anyone said Godzilla/SonofGodzilla yet? :smalltongue:

Yes, actually. It's been a very successful start of thread. Godzilla, grue, Snarl jr, copyright violations, I believe even a brief appearance of Tarrasque. One does wonder why one bothers with the initial posts, sometimes. Then I realise: maybe without it, there would be even more people suggesting them.

Grey Wolf

[RndmNumGen]

Problem 1: The grue is copyrighted, and not by Wizards of the Coast.

Oh, is it? Well while I don't completely agree with your other points, that does deal it a heavy blow. It's unlikely that Rich licensed grues just so MitD is one.

As far as the light issue goes though, I'm not convinced. Part of the reason that MitD wants to be lit up, while Xykon and Redcloak want to keep him in the dark, is part of what makes me think so. As I said, there are thousands of different versions and incarnates of the grue, which is what makes it impossible to prove but also impossible to dismiss out-of-hand. The copyright issue is the first serious proof I've seen against it.

EDIT: @ Grey Wolf

Of course people are going to post Godzilla, grue, Snarl jr, and Tarrasque, even if they have already been posted before. Nearly every monster in existence has been posted, and none of them fit. That is why people need to pick and chose their favorites, because most are not content saying "Well there is no way to know until Rich reveals it, so lets just stop talking about it and do something else". Otherwise this thread would never exist in the first place. So even though these monsters may or may not have been suggested, people will still talk about them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As far as the light issue goes though, I'm not convinced. Part of the reason that MitD wants to be lit up, while Xykon and Redcloak want to keep him in the dark, is part of what makes me think so.
Wrong. The reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) why Xykon keeps him in darkness have nothing to do with grues.


As I said, there are thousands of different versions and incarnates of the grue, which is what makes it impossible to prove but also impossible to dismiss out-of-hand. The copyright issue is the first serious proof I've seen against it.

And the fact they don't teleport others. And the fact that they are terrified of light - while MitD has been out in the light with no ill effects.


EDIT: @ Grey Wolf

Of course people are going to post Godzilla, grue, Snarl jr, and Tarrasque, even if they have already been posted before. Nearly every monster in existence has been posted, and none of them fit. That is why people need to pick and chose their favorites, because most are not content saying "Well there is no way to know until Rich reveals it, so lets just stop talking about it and do something else". Otherwise this thread would never exist in the first place. So even though these monsters may or may not have been suggested, people will still talk about them.

Yes, of course. But ideally, they've taken a few minutes to at least take a look at the first post and, if they bring up the old, tired ideas again, they at least try to address the problems listed there. But they never do - at best, we get a hand-wave "sure, they never have used any magic powers, but you can't prove they don't have them".

Note that not everyone bringing up old ideas is like that, but most are.

Grey Wolf

[Bongos]

Where is the copyright for Grue? Who has it? I thought grue has been used in several different games from different companies.

I still see the grue as a possibility. I don't see any of the counter arguments being strong enough to eliminate it. Conversely, the arguments for grue do not clinch it either.

However I'm most likely convinced its a Protean. I don't accept the Redcloak/psionics argument as we already knew psionics were part of Oots before Redcloak said that. Actually his lack of knowledge of psionics explains why Xykon and Redcloak do not suspect him of the "Escape". Clearly Xykon and Redcloak do not know all the MitD is capable of even if they know what he is.

I used to like slaad, but since we've already seen slaads in Oots it would be anti climatic for MitD to be one.

The grue would be funniest, as then the reason for the monster being in the dark is because grues are always in the dark. If the MitD doesn't know that he is a grue, how is he to know he should be afraid of the light?

I don't know, with all the Star Wars references lately, there might be some areas unexplored as of yet. All the Pokemon references seem lame, mainly because the pokemon thing was already done with the paladins.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where is the copyright for Grue? Who has it? I thought grue has been used in several different games from different companies.

Zork is currently owned by Activision, who got it when they bought Infocom, the original company that produced the Zork games. I don't know if the grue is part of the copyright and trademark of the game, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't.

Grey Wolf

[Moogleking]

I'm afraid I have no idea as to a new monster, but I do have an idea of where to look.

Someone earlier said something to the effect of Rich having authored some of the Source Books, perhpas this has something to do with his use of the phrase "Not some I made up just for this story."?

Just food for thought, keep up the good work :smallbiggrin:

[RndmNumGen]

Wrong. The reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) why Xykon keeps him in darkness have nothing to do with grues.
Hmm... okay, you have me there. For some reason, I forgot about that strip.




And the fact they don't teleport others. And the fact that they are terrified of light - while MitD has been out in the light with no ill effects.

I don't believe a grue has ever really befriended anybody before, and would have no reason to teleport them. You can't say they don't teleport others. You can't say they do teleport others either, but they sure seem able to teleport themselves, so teleporting others isn't a huge stretch.


Yes, of course. But ideally, they've taken a few minutes to at least take a look at the first post and, if they bring up the old, tired ideas again, they at least try to address the problems listed there. But they never do - at best, we get a hand-wave "sure, they never have used any magic powers, but you can't prove they don't have them".

Note that not everyone bringing up old ideas is like that, but most are.

Grey Wolf
I can see where you would be frustrated by that, though to be fair when I first brought up grues again, that was because I thought I found new information(turns out I didn't, as the lantern archons attack causes damage to any creature).

[Niveus Candidus]

Indeed. Just did a quick SRD check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm)

I note that there are a couple divine abilities which allow a deity to shapeshift permanently into animal form.

So it is plausible that the MITD is a lesser-rank deity shapechanged into an animal form. This would explain A) why the big game hunters recognized it (it is an animal form, and they are animal experts) and B) why Xykon was unaware of the 'escape' ability (recognizing the animal form but not the shapechanged divinity, Xykon recognizes the creature but isn't aware of it's hidden power, or Xykon would have immediately suspected MITD in the disappearance of O-chul and V).

Counter-argument: In SOD, Xykon puts a suggestion spell on the MITD. Wouldn't a deity-class simply shrug that magic off? Ah ... only if it actually attempted to resist, perhaps.

What OTHER powers have a rest requirement? Where can I look that up?

Because I agree with Grey Wolf on this: This is the same thing as with class levels. We're adding abilities to make a bad contender into a good one. It could be anything, if it's a lesser divinity. I'd much rather find a single monster type which possesses all the appropriate abilities and powers natively. I further believe -- based on the appearance in the anachronistic circus -- that it must be from 3.0 or earlier.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

New front runner. The Eastern Gods even "Walk a fine line" between what Rich and someone else made up.

[Silver2195]

But which Eastern god? None of them really fit MitD's personality (and the main potential benefit of the reincarnation theory is that it explains why his behavior is atypical for his species, so this make the theory pretty pointless).

And there's no ability resembling the "escape" in Greek mythology that I can think of.

[Alchemist_Fire]

And there's no ability resembling the "escape" in Greek mythology that I can think of.

Tangential to the topic, but Athene (I think?) whisks one of the soldiers of Ilium away from battle as he's about to die. It's somewhere in Chapter 4-9 of The Iliad, and I think it's the duel between the two champions. However, this isn't aesthetically similar to MitD's Escape method.

[Shale]

Gods are immune to mind-control, full stop. No conscious resistance necessary.

The "Greek gods can't teleport" argument doesn't fly, though. Miracle can teleport, and Miracle is a god taking direct action on the caster's behalf. In Greek myth, the gods couldn't travel instantly. In D&D, they can until proven otherwise.

[Starscream]

Has anyone ever suggested creatures from fantasy books that are old enough to be in the public domain?

Works like Alice in Wonderland, 1001 Nights, Beowulf, some of Lovecraft's earlier work, Dracula, Frankenstein, the first 16 Oz books, pretty much every fairytale ever, Peter Pan (outside the UK), and even Conan the Barbarian can be used by any author looking to borrow characters and concepts.

I can't personally think of any creatures from these works that match the MiTD, but since "It's possible to guess" implies that it is not a wholly original creature, and we've pretty much exhausted all the official D&D monsters that can be used legally, he might be something from an established but free-to-pillage universe.

Sorry if this has been suggested before, but I'm sure there are tons of fairly well known fictional monsters who have existed since before 1922.

[mofabulous]

Thankfully all these people who spend time and energy trying to figure it out will not matter one bit when the reveal is done and they are disappointed. I read the last post on this MiTD mystery and Grey Wolf or whatever his name was made a comment

" Went with the Tarrasque, because it has received plenty of votes, and I can see it being useful (Tarrasque? really? Man, we didn't see that coming... wait, we did. We even named the thread after your silly idea!). "

You sit around hoping someone will suggest a tarrasque so you can act all superior and claim you already guessed it and blah blah, this is why it can't work....despite having so many clues in the comic that actually support it! Did you see that upside down head in the game he was playing with O'Chul? Looked like a tarrasque to me.

Rich can't win no matter what he decides with people like that so hopefully he just ignores all the people like that. Seriously Rich you just do what you do. There are plenty of fans out here who won't give you a response like that.

My response should it turn out to be that aforementioned baby tarrasque would be " hey cool, we guessed the clues right! awesome. "

[Niveus Candidus]

Gods are immune to mind-control, full stop. No conscious resistance necessary.

The "Greek gods can't teleport" argument doesn't fly, though. Miracle can teleport, and Miracle is a god taking direct action on the caster's behalf. In Greek myth, the gods couldn't travel instantly. In D&D, they can until proven otherwise.

Has it ever been mentioned that Xykon never says a spell name during the suggestion scene? I am sure it has, as these threads are extremely thorough in their ways. In the OotS-verse, spells are usually cast by yelling "FIREBALL!" in place of the typical fantasy gibberish. Xykon doesn't do this.

In fact, its such a defining factor in the MiTS' identity that with our limited knowledge of what is and is not a red herring or bent for plot convenience, we might be better served listed all spells that have some method of controlling another creature.

[Shale]

You sit around hoping someone will suggest a tarrasque so you can act all superior and claim you already guessed it and blah blah, this is why it can't work....despite having so many clues in the comic that actually support it! Did you see that upside down head in the game he was playing with O'Chul? Looked like a tarrasque to me.

Rich can't win no matter what he decides with people like that so hopefully he just ignores all the people like that. Seriously Rich you just do what you do. There are plenty of fans out here who won't give you a response like that.

My response should it turn out to be that aforementioned baby tarrasque would be " hey cool, we guessed the clues right! awesome. "


If we get snippy at the tarrasque idea, it's because it's been proposed over (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7957881&highlight=tarrasque#post7957881) and over (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7754716&highlight=tarrasque#post7754716) and over (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7715412#post7715412) and over again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7711695&postcount=235). It fits with nothing beyond the "strong, eats things and is hard to kill" aspects of MitD, which are not exactly hard conditions to meet among top-tier monsters. It is far too big to fit in the box, it doesn't reproduce so it can't have a father, and it can't teleport. And yet people won't drop it.

Edit:
Has it ever been mentioned that Xykon never says a spell name during the suggestion scene? I am sure it has, as these threads are extremely thorough in their ways. In the OotS-verse, spells are usually cast by yelling "FIREBALL!" in place of the typical fantasy gibberish. Xykon doesn't do this.

It's not the only time we've seen magic cast without saying the name of the spell - Redcloak passed his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living. Moreover, though, Xykon, as a sorcerer lich, has no way of hypnotizing anybody except with a magic spell or a magic-spell-duplicating magical item, either of which would be useless against a god.

[Parlity]

Has anyone ever suggested creatures from fantasy books that are old enough to be in the public domain?

Works like Alice in Wonderland, 1001 Nights, Beowulf, some of Lovecraft's earlier work, Dracula, Frankenstein, the first 16 Oz books, pretty much every fairytale ever, Peter Pan (outside the UK), and even Conan the Barbarian can be used by any author looking to borrow characters and concepts.

I can't personally think of any creatures from these works that match the MiTD, but since "It's possible to guess" implies that it is not a wholly original creature, and we've pretty much exhausted all the official D&D monsters that can be used legally, he might be something from an established but free-to-pillage universe.

Sorry if this has been suggested before, but I'm sure there are tons of fairly well known fictional monsters who have existed since before 1922.

I'm guessing it's the psammead or sand fairy. Variable size, grants wishes, and wishes make it sleepy. This suggestion received a cold reception by the thread creators, however it is on the list of suggested creatures.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You sit around hoping someone will suggest a tarrasque so you can act all superior and claim you already guessed it and blah blah, this is why it can't work....despite having so many clues in the comic that actually support it! Did you see that upside down head in the game he was playing with O'Chul? Looked like a tarrasque to me.

No, I don't sit around hoping they'll suggest Tarrasque. I sit around hoping that those thinking of Tarrasque will read the first post and either bring something new to the table or shut up. Big difference. Also, no, I do not see a Tarrasque. But then, I'm very much aware of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia).

Also, are you trying to be deliberatively insulting with the whole "whatever his name is" business?


Rich can't win no matter what he decides with people like that so hopefully he just ignores all the people like that. Seriously Rich you just do what you do. There are plenty of fans out here who won't give you a response like that.

My response should it turn out to be that aforementioned baby tarrasque would be " hey cool, we guessed the clues right! awesome. "

... OK, I'm no longer sure how to answer this. The clues about MitD do not fit Tarrasque. Coming here and stating otherwise cannot change what Rich has told us in the comic. Tarrasque cannot teleport. It cannot fit in the box.


In fact, its such a defining factor in the MiTS' identity that with our limited knowledge of what is and is not a red herring or bent for plot convenience, we might be better served listed all spells that have some method of controlling another creature.

All such spells, regardless of what they do or are, all fall under the mind-affecting category. Put another way, you cannot magically force a god to obey you, no matter what spell you use. The exact nature of the spell is not needed.


I'm guessing it's the psammead or sand fairy. Variable size, grants wishes, and wishes make it sleepy. This suggestion received a cold reception by the thread creators, however it is on the list of suggested creatures.

It can't punch horses through walls. I also see nothing about size changing in the wiki article (except he "swells alarmingly" when he concedes wishes). I am puzzled about the "cold reception" part. What do you want, that we declare him perfect when he's clearly not?

I'm going to say this again: over 50 creatures have been proposed. Some fit well, most don't. If they have a problem, it is pointed out, and then we move on to the next one. We're not going to stand around, trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole just to make the person that proposed it happy.

Besides, the Neothelid received an even 'colder' reception and it's a forerunner, for Thor's sake!

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

Tarrasque is utterly impossible as-is. You need to augment it to make it fit. A Tarrasque can't teleport, but a Phrenic Tarrasque can.

A Tarrasque is a good base for piling templates on, since it gives rare things like sleepiness and huge appetite. And, by RAW, it CAN reproduce. Both the fluff and crunch of the Half-Dragon template implicitly supports that. Living? Check. Corporeal? Check. Only one of its species on the planet? Irrelevant.

I know I'm repeating myself from previous threads, but people keep suggesting unmodified Tarrasque and Grey Wolf keeps shooting them down without qualifiers.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Tarrasque is utterly impossible as-is. You need to augment it to make it fit. A Tarrasque can't teleport, but a Phrenic Tarrasque can.

A Tarrasque is a good base for piling templates on, since it gives rare things like sleepiness and huge appetite. And, by RAW, it CAN reproduce. Both the fluff and crunch of the Half-Dragon template implicitly supports that. Living? Check. Corporeal? Check. Only one of its species on the planet? Irrelevant.

I know I'm repeating myself from previous threads, but people keep suggesting unmodified Tarrasque and Grey Wolf keeps shooting them down without qualifiers.

You are forgetting size problems. No amount of class levels, templates stacks or reincarnation can reduce its size that much. And even if he was a "child" of some kind, he'd had had to grow since his first appearance.

Also, like we've discussed before, there is that pesky lack of evidence. If and when Rich gives us more info on MitD's history of level-gaining, parentage or previous lives, I'll be the first to revisit the possibility. Until then, it goes against Occam's razor.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

And how would a Phrenic Tarrasque fit with the cirkus scene?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And how would a Phrenic Tarrasque fit with the cirkus scene?

In theory the look exactly like a regular Tarrasque. The question then is: is Tarrasque unrecognisable by most people? I would say Tarrasque is famous enough most people would recognise one, even a ultra-dwarf version of it. I think they would, because Tarrasque is famous, but I don't think there is a way to tell. To compare: no matter how little knowledge (appropiate category) you have, everyone recognises dragons. Not sure if Tarrasque is similar in that way, in-verse.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

Since nobody has mentioned Tarrasque in the comic, we have no way of knowing how well-known the creature is on OotSworld. That's entirely up to the creator of the setting. Even if it's completely unknown, though, the circus scene begs the question of whether an extremely miniature version of this (http://www.aethertraveller.com/images/tarrasque.gif) would move anyone used to D&D monsters in general to vomit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Since nobody has mentioned Tarrasque in the comic.

For the record, this is technically incorrect. Elan mentions Tarrasques while he's trying random 4-word strings in an effort to give V ultimate arcane power. This has been used in the past as flimsy evidence that there is more than one Tarrasque, something I don't think can be deduced from random babbling*, but it certainly shows that Tarrasque is at least known generally enough it is part of Elan's vocabulary.

I can't find the comic where this happens, though. Maybe it's one of the extra strips in the published books?

Grey Wolf

Edit: *Anymore that if I said "four pink evil napoleons" can be used to deduce that there was more than one Napoleon. Or that they were pink.

[Kish]

Yes, it's when Elan is trying to randomly guess Vaarsuvius' four words. One of his guesses is, "My tarrasque has fleas."

(This was, of course, immediately seized on as a clue to the identity of the creature in the darkness by someone on this here forum.)

[Shale]

I don't remember anything like that ever happening, so it'd be in one of the compilation books. All I've read is the prequels.

[Nerdanel]

Making a knowledge check to recognize a Tarrasque isn't really that trivial:


In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Since a Tarrasque has whopping 48 HD, the Knowledge (Arcana) check to recognize it is DC 58. That's pretty hard to make - impossible for most people. Even Redcloak would likely have had to rely on unspecified abilities of the Crimson Mantle to make the check. As for Xykon, Knowledge (Arcana) would be a skill he with his epic spellcasting had invested in significantly, quite possibly even maxing it, and so he could have just maybe made the check too on a good roll, at least if he had invested in equipment that gave bonus to the skill.

But since it's heavily hinted that the MitD is a young member of his species, it is unknown what his actual HD total would be. It probably would be lower than that of the standard Tarrasque, making him easier to identify, but on the other hand, since there is no statblock for most monsters at different ages, perhaps they revert into using the same base statblock while looking physically younger and smaller. It's really hard to guess how such things work in the OOTS universe where the laws of physics are explicitly based on a game.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Making a knowledge check to recognize a Tarrasque isn't really that trivial:

And yet, every single member of the OotS, and even a baker, recognises a dragon when they see one, even though by that same logic the difficulty is stratospheric. My point was, and still is, that there are certain famous creatures that everyone in OotS-verse must be able to recognise on sight. Tarrasque may or may not be one of them.

Grey Wolf

[Nimrod's Son]

I don't remember anything like that ever happening, so it'd be in one of the compilation books. All I've read is the prequels.
Yeah, it's a bonus strip in War & XPs, immediately after the visit to the Oracle.

[slb]

Just posting to give kudos to Grey_Wolf_c and his great work on the MitD's thread.

Also, I would suggest for the fun to create a poll listing the forerunners and see what are the bets of the GitPG community on that (yes only the forerunners, or maybe a unique poll option with Tarasque & BabySnarl to see how many people haven't read this thread).

Personnaly I would vote for the Hagumemnon that IIRC was first suggested (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6275667) by Phage0070 a long time ago.

[Nimrod's Son]

Also, I would suggest for the fun to create a poll listing the forerunners and see what are the bets of the GitPG community on that (yes only the forerunners, or maybe a unique poll option with Tarasque & BabySnarl to see how many people haven't read this thread).
While I don't object to that happening, it needs to have its own thread. This one is about the facts about the monster, not the number of people who reckon it'd be awesome if it were Snarl Jr.

[Darakonis]

Do not underestimate the power of the tarrasque.

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/12/1/633636917916939350-FlyingTarrasque.jpg

Who knows what else he can do?

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Parlity]

It can't punch horses through walls. I also see nothing about size changing in the wiki article (except he "swells alarmingly" when he concedes wishes). I am puzzled about the "cold reception" part. What do you want, that we declare him perfect when he's clearly not?

I'm going to say this again: over 50 creatures have been proposed. Some fit well, most don't. If they have a problem, it is pointed out, and then we move on to the next one. We're not going to stand around, trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole just to make the person that proposed it happy.

Besides, the Neothelid received an even 'colder' reception and it's a forerunner, for Thor's sake!

Grey Wolf

Why not? Its size increases when granting wishes in the book. Sadly for us, the wiki article was unlikely to have been written for the purpose of determining if the psammead is a good candidate to be the MitD.

Do you also try to make a round peg not fit into a round hole, to make people unhappy?

[Silver2195]

Do not underestimate the power of the tarrasque.

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/12/1/633636917916939350-FlyingTarrasque.jpg

Who knows what else he can do?

Peace,
-Darakonis

Let's add that one to the Joke Ideas section.

[Silver2195]

From Wikipedia:

"In Five Children and It, the Psammead is described as having “eyes [that] were on long horns like a snail’s eyes, and it could move them in and out like telescopes; it had ears like a bat’s ears, and its tubby body was shaped like a spider’s and covered with thick soft fur; its legs and arms were furry too, and it had hands and feet like a monkey’s” and whiskers like a rat. When it grants wishes it stretches out its eyes, holds its breath and swells alarmingly.

The five children find the Psammead in a gravel-pit, which used to be seashore. There were once many Psammeads but the others died because they got cold and wet. It is the only one of its kind left. It is thousands of years old and remembers pterodactyls and other ancient creatures. When the Psammeads were around, they granted any wishes, mostly for food. The wished-for objects would turn into stone at sunset if they were not used that day, but this doesn't apply to the children's wishes because what they wish for is so much more fantastic than the wishes the Psammead had granted in the past. [1] (Chapter 1)

The name Psammead, (pronounced “Sammyadd” by the children in the story) appears to be an inventive Greek pun coined by Nesbit (from the Greek ψάμμος "sand" after the pattern of dryad, naiad, oread, etc.) upon the name of “Samyaza” the leader of the Grigori (“Watchers”, from Greek egrḗgoroi) supernatural creatures of antediluvian myth. Knowing the pun's in-joke shows the logic at work behind the creature's phobia of water — “nasty wet bubbling sea” — and why its eyes are placed watchfully upon the ends of long horns like a snail's eyes."

It grants wishes and is unusual-looking, but not much else fits. No hint of great strength or defenses.

[Gift Jeraff]

In theory the look exactly like a regular Tarrasque. The question then is: is Tarrasque unrecognisable by most people? I would say Tarrasque is famous enough most people would recognise one, even a ultra-dwarf version of it. I think they would, because Tarrasque is famous, but I don't think there is a way to tell. To compare: no matter how little knowledge (appropiate category) you have, everyone recognises dragons. Not sure if Tarrasque is similar in that way, in-verse.

Grey Wolf

Hmmm, I would think this would present a problem for the Slaad as well. I would imagine that slaadi are just as recognizable in-universe as a celestial or a fiend--they just may not be able to identify the type of slaad.

Also, in regards to the Protean con that "MitD's eye placement has been pretty much the same", I think that could be handwaved as plot-induced luck. After all, the MitD was introduced before Rich decided what he is, so he'd be contradicting earlier strips in addition to giving what might be too big of a clue (if the MitD is that).

The same could be said for the Neothelid: If he is a neothelid, his eyes existed before Rich decided as such, so perhaps all neothelids have eyes in the OOTSiverse.

[Nerdanel]

And yet, every single member of the OotS, and even a baker, recognises a dragon when they see one, even though by that same logic the difficulty is stratospheric. My point was, and still is, that there are certain famous creatures that everyone in OotS-verse must be able to recognise on sight. Tarrasque may or may not be one of them.

Grey Wolf

Also, Dragon is a creature type on the same level as Undead. When you see a rotting corpse walking around, you can guess it's some sort of unspecified Undead, and similarly creatures with the Dragon type tend to be recognizable as such. There are exceptions where such type guesses are wrong, like with Yellow Musk Zombie, but those are just that - exceptions.

It is unknown if the OOTS world suffers from a condition where Wyrmling Red Dragon is vastly easier to recognize than a Great Wyrm Red Dragon or if in such cases the DC to know the species name is determined according to the weakest statblock. It confuses the matter further that dragon species tend to be named after plain descriptions of their color. In any case, we know that the inhabitants of the OOTS world are prone to metagaming and using out-of-character knowledge and that the game books exist in their universe. It makes things complicated when the limitations of their knowledge are significant.

[Parlity]

From Wikipedia:

"In Five Children and It, the Psammead is described as having “eyes [that] were on long horns like a snail’s eyes, and it could move them in and out like telescopes; it had ears like a bat’s ears, and its tubby body was shaped like a spider’s and covered with thick soft fur; its legs and arms were furry too, and it had hands and feet like a monkey’s” and whiskers like a rat. When it grants wishes it stretches out its eyes, holds its breath and swells alarmingly.

The five children find the Psammead in a gravel-pit, which used to be seashore. There were once many Psammeads but the others died because they got cold and wet. It is the only one of its kind left. It is thousands of years old and remembers pterodactyls and other ancient creatures. When the Psammeads were around, they granted any wishes, mostly for food. The wished-for objects would turn into stone at sunset if they were not used that day, but this doesn't apply to the children's wishes because what they wish for is so much more fantastic than the wishes the Psammead had granted in the past. [1] (Chapter 1)

The name Psammead, (pronounced “Sammyadd” by the children in the story) appears to be an inventive Greek pun coined by Nesbit (from the Greek ψάμμος "sand" after the pattern of dryad, naiad, oread, etc.) upon the name of “Samyaza” the leader of the Grigori (“Watchers”, from Greek egrḗgoroi) supernatural creatures of antediluvian myth. Knowing the pun's in-joke shows the logic at work behind the creature's phobia of water — “nasty wet bubbling sea” — and why its eyes are placed watchfully upon the ends of long horns like a snail's eyes."

It grants wishes and is unusual-looking, but not much else fits. No hint of great strength or defenses.

For the strength and defenses, it could wish for them. It gets tired after granting wishes. It is hurt by water and would be unusual to find in a rainforest.

The book is public domain and available online.

[Silver2195]

For the strength and defenses, it could wish for them. It gets tired after granting wishes. It is hurt by water and would be unusual to find in a rainforest.

The book is public domain and available online.

Two problems here. First, it isn't just "usually not found in water". Water kills it, as do cold temperatures. Second, there's no suggestion that it can grant ITSELF wishes, only other people, so how could it become strong by wishing?

[Ancalagon]

--they just may not be able to identify the type of slaad.

Weren't they colour-coded?

[Parlity]

Two problems here. First, it isn't just "usually not found in water". Water kills it, as do cold temperatures. Second, there's no suggestion that it can grant ITSELF wishes, only other people, so how could it become strong by wishing?

First problem, I didn't say what you quoted. The slightest touch of water injures it severely in the book and the MitD is holding an umbrella.

If the MitD can wish, there's no physical limit on the MitD by strength or size. The distinguishing ability is the wishes and feeling sleepy after wishing.

Second, there's no suggestion the psammead cannot grant itself wishes. It grants other people's wishes in a way apparently under the control of the psammead.

[fishguy]

If we get snippy at the tarrasque idea, it's because it's been proposed over and over and over and over again. It fits with nothing beyond the "strong, eats things and is hard to kill" aspects of MitD,

and sleeping a lot is a main characteristic, and horrifying to look at, and normally found only in the middle of wastelands (much like a beaver is normally only found in ponds, because it alters the existing landscape thereby creating its own habitat) and low intelligence... and just to correct what you said above... it eats anything and everything, not just things

While I have been somewhat convinced against the tarrasque by reading the knowledgable people discussing other possibilities in these threads, I have to say that every time I see a tarrasque nay-sayer intentionally downplaying or ignoring characteristics that fit it sways me back... only very powerful ideas need to be dismissed with deception.

[Shale]

Before MitD was captured by anyone, he lived in the rainforest, sans umbrella.

[Parlity]

Before MitD was captured by anyone, he lived in the rainforest, sans umbrella.

Yes and the hunters were surprised to see him in the rainforest. Another clue that fits.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

{Scrubbed}

[Parlity]

{Scrubbed}

[Grey_Wolf_c]

{Scrubbed}
Again with the projection. I do not sneer. My reactions to that kind of post we are talking about are more in the "exasperated sigh" end of the scale. I don't mind Nerdanel's posts about Tarrasque. Shi manages to always bring something new to the table, some new way of looking at the problem that has not been considered before. Shi looks at the rules, figures out how to bend them just enough to make them fit, and posts logical, solid rebuttals. But I do mind posts that all they have to say is things that have been said before, and I mind even more those that ignore problems just to make them fit. But never have I posted something to make people unhappy. I have posted while angry, though, which is not the same.

But I will say this: all these ad-hominens attacks of the last few pages are getting old. Attacking my personality, or my posting style, does not in any way weaken my arguments. Guessing at my motives, if I sneer, etc. is a fallacy, and a stupid way to conduct a debate, because all it does is get me angry. It certainly does not strengthen your arguments.


Wishing.

That's a stretch. Because the psammeads have no common sense and Nesbit's books have a nonsensical feel to them. The psammead grants wishes. It's not adding an ability to say it may grant its own wishes.

We are in disagreement. In logic, such situation is resolved with Occam's razor. The person adding details for which there is no evidence is you, who are assuming the creature can grant its own wishes, in spite of never having done so regardless of great need. Also note that the self-granting wishes are needed to explain the big problem with psammead: that it is not strong or big enough. So you are essentially telling me that a race dying because of extreme water phobia won't use their own wishes to save their species, but will use them to turn them into strong, tall creatures? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.

I also note that you have not addressed all my arguments. What I am to make of that? Shall I assume you concede that the psammead living in the jungle is impossible?

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

I do not understand where this recent wave of dislike for Grey Wolf has come from. He has done an excellent - and extensive - job of compiling facts about MitD, and I, for one, appreciate his hard work.

Those who are complaining about his "rudeness" might want to 1) read the first post, and 2a) not put forth ideas that have been proposed before without providing new evidence or 2b) not accuse him of dismissing their ideas when he points out any flaws. I have been reading these threads for some time now, and believe me, Grey Wolf points out the flaws in everyone's ideas, including those that are now the forerunners. If we refuse to look at why some proposals don't fit, we well never have a chance to guess what the MitD is.

[DaggerPen]

I do not understand where this recent wave of dislike for Grey Wolf has come from. He has done an excellent - and extensive - job of compiling facts about MitD, and I, for one, appreciate his hard work.

Those who are complaining about his "rudeness" might want to 1) read the first post, and 2a) not put forth ideas that have been proposed before without providing new evidence or 2b) not accuse him of dismissing their ideas when he points out any flaws. I have been reading these threads for some time now, and believe me, Grey Wolf points out the flaws in everyone's ideas, including those that are now the forerunners. If we refuse to look at why some proposals don't fit, we well never have a chance to guess what the MitD is.

Agreed. Grey Wolf can be somewhat curt on occasion, yeah, but I've yet to see him pick on an idea unfairly, and to be honest, I'm just as tired as he is, if not more so, of hearing old ideas rehashed a gazillion times without anything new being added. Especially since Grey_Wolf went to all the trouble of compiling pretty much everything that's been suggested and all the information we have.

[Mawhrin Skel]

I agree with DaggerPen and Savannah. Grey Wolf is doing a good job here.

[Valifor]

i have to agree, it seems to me Gray Wolf is simply pointing out flaws in logic. not being rude at all. he's not even completely shutting down ideas, just noting how far-fetched a miniature tarrasque or similar ideas would be.

also, i'd like to note that i don't think MitD is likely to be a creature not from D&D. Rich has been really consistent in using creatures that are normally in D&D. as far as i can remember, he hasn't ever used a creature that wasn't originally from D&D for more than anything but a small gag. I'm not saying its impossible, but it seems incredibly unlikely that any creature from a book written a long time ago, even if it's public domain, is the species of the MitD.

[Bongos]

I would like to un-suggest tarrasque. Really I just don't see it.

[mofabulous]

{Scrubbed}

[DaggerPen]

{Scrubbed}

First off- Grey Wolf can be brusque, yes, but I've yet to see him make a personal attack, as you're doing, or in fact discard an idea using anything but logic and what we already know. Does he sugarcoat his criticisms? No. But he's hardly overly nasty about it either, and he's certainly not an asshat.

Second off- so, you think that, even though we have no reason to think that Giant would have put a clue in in that particular form and that pareidola is a well documented phenomenon, the whole "turn your head and squint and the go board almost maybe looks like it could be a tarrasque" is enough to discount the tarrasque's uniqueness, lack of teleportation/wishing abilities, lowered CR/strength due to its considerably smaller size in any theoretical baby form, and comparatively low CR even in adult form compared to other contenders?

And yes, I know, it's iconic and it's known for eating and sleeping a lot. But we have no reason to think MitD is an iconic monster, there are plenty of monsters that eat a lot, and not only are there plenty of monsters that sleep a lot, but I don't think we've actually seen MitD sleeping a lot, just getting tired after using his abilities. I'm pretty sure we've seen the main characters sleeping more often than we've seen the MitD dozing off- are they known for their sleepiness, then?

There's absolutely no reason to think it's a tarrasque. And for all that you dump on Grey_Wolf, he's at least contributing to the thread, instead of constantly repeating the same tired old discounted monster without offering any reasonable way to address its shortcomings.

[Nimrod's Son]

Ah, I'd missed this last page before I just sent Grey Wolf a PM saying that despite a few moaners, I think he's doing a spot-on job. Since everyone else is chiming in on the issue I thought I may as well echo it publicly.

The first post is there for a reason. We're onto the 108th page of the topic. If you post something that is covered in the first post, without bringing up anything new, then you are posting something that has been discussed to death.

Those of us that have been following this thread for the last few months, if not years, are sick of it.

Those of you that haven't? That's cool. There's a handy summary in the first post. Give it a glance over, yeah?

EDIT:

So what if he made the post. He made the last one too. And everyone who has come up with an idea that was already discussed has been blasted by him. I read most of his posts in here and find him to be very offensive.


That aside.. I am still going with baby tarrasque. The clues and the upside down face in that game with O'chul lead me to believe thats the best bet.
So... you read most of his posts, huh? What did you make of the ones about pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)? (Link reposted, for your convenience, for like the eighty-sixth time.)

We've seen plenty of people argue that the board game looks like everything from a tarrasque to Skull from PvP. I don't particularly think it looks like anything, but I suppose if I squint a bit I can make it look kinda like Pepe Le Pew. I'm not about to start ranting about the significance of that, though.

[mofabulous]

I glanced over it. Yeah I did. Cool huh? Nothing in it fully negates the BABY tarrasque. Not a full grown tarrasque which is one of whats his names biggest arguements against it. The CR arguments are so far fetched I can't believe you all keep repeating it. The lack of teleportation isn't conclusive.

There are alot of clues that support it. Again its just a guess. I don't care if a few of you have your panties in a bunch and are tired of seeing it suggested. I've read all 6 of my books and thats my guess. Out of all the clues given so far that BABY tarrasque fits the closest. Honestly just looking at that face picture I can see nothing else fitting. The head has horns on it.

As to whats his name contributing... how? He just mocks and bashes people. If you post on a forum then you have to accept other viewpoints. Thats the nature of a forum. Learn it.. love it... live it.


Edit: In fact the only clue given so far which gives me any real doubt for it being a baby tarrasque is the comic where he gets a papercut by trying to eat Durkons letter from the Dwarven High Priest. I just can't see a tarrasque getting a papercut. So you know.. I could be wrong. And whats his name and all of you could be so right and so happy feeling superior. Just take it down a notch guys. All I'm asking..

[Nimrod's Son]

The head has horns on it.
The face on Mars has a nose on it. What were your thoughts on pareidolia again?


As to whats his name contributing... how?
He spent countless hours compiling all the information from a fifty-page thread that someone else started but left unfinished, and has maintained it diligently ever since. If that counts for anything. Far as I can see, all you've "contributed" is to repeat something that most of us are bored of hearing, and then got all stroppy when no one agreed with you. I mean, if we're talking usefulness ratios, that is.


If you post on a forum then you have to accept other viewpoints. Thats the nature of a forum.
...And yet, finally, I think we're in agreement here. :smallamused:

[DaggerPen]

I glanced over it. Yeah I did. Cool huh? Nothing in it fully negates the BABY tarrasque. Not a full grown tarrasque which is one of whats his names biggest arguements against it. The CR arguments are so far fetched I can't believe you all keep repeating it. The lack of teleportation isn't conclusive.

There are alot of clues that support it. Again its just a guess. I don't care if a few of you have your panties in a bunch and are tired of seeing it suggested. I've read all 6 of my books and thats my guess. Out of all the clues given so far that BABY tarrasque fits the closest. Honestly just looking at that face picture I can see nothing else fitting. The head has horns on it.

As to whats his name contributing... how? He just mocks and bashes people. If you post on a forum then you have to accept other viewpoints. Thats the nature of a forum. Learn it.. love it... live it.


Edit: In fact the only clue given so far which gives me any real doubt for it being a baby tarrasque is the comic where he gets a papercut by trying to eat Durkons letter from the Dwarven High Priest. I just can't see a tarrasque getting a papercut. So you know.. I could be wrong. And whats his name and all of you could be so right and so happy feeling superior. Just take it down a notch guys. All I'm asking..

You keep talking about "a lot" of clues that support your baby tarrasque theory. Would you care to list any besides the go board, which, for the record, we have no reason to believe is a picture of the MitD besides its vague resemblance to a face of some kind?

And except for size, which of the problems listed with tarrasque don't apply to a baby tarrasque? Not to mention that the baby tarrasque theory has the additional problem of having a lower strength score than an adult tarrasque, thus bringing into question whether it'd be strong enough to throw Miko through the wall or create a huge chasm in the earth by stomping the ground.

How in the world is the lack of teleportation not conclusive? It's probably one of the biggest clues as to the MitD's identity we have, considering how it narrows down the range of monsters. Stretching a known ability to make it fit the teleportation is one thing, given how Giant has bent the rules in-comic a few times, but for the man who has said that he has given numerous clues as to the MitD's identity to randomly give a creature that fits poorly teleportation powers instead of using any of the other creatures that fit as well as or considerably better than the tarrasque? Yeah, no. It just doesn't fit.

And I find it really frustrating how you seem to consider any criticism of your suggestion indications that we "feel superior" to you. Nevermind the fact that you continually fail to address any criticisms leveled at your idea, which is a rehash of an idea that's been suggested and discredited about a gazillion times before. Have you considered that our apparent feelings of superiority may simply be complete and utter frustration with the Suggestion That Will Not Die?

As for how Grey Wolf- and, really, is it so hard for you to use his name? It's right down there in the "Topic Review" when you make a comment, for crying out loud- is contributing to the thread? Well, aside from his incredibly useful first post, he's helping scrutinize ideas to see what fits the MitD best, which is pretty much the only way we're going to figure out what the MitD is. Just because he doesn't sugar-coat his criticisms doesn't mean he doesn't have valid points.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: If you enjoy discussing this issue, I'd recommend that you do so without personal attacks and negative characterizations. If you like obtaining infraction points and having your posts scrubbed, then by all means carry on with the rudeness.

[mofabulous]

{Scrubbed}

[DaggerPen]

{Scrubbed}

Again with the "you guys are attacking me" stuff. We haven't attacked you. We just criticized your idea. How else, exactly, do you think we should have pointed out the flaws in your idea, then?

Also, you may wish to reconsider your post. I'm not entirely sure how far the whole "Ignoring or Disrespecting a Mod posting under their Mod Name" extends, but I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to contest a post being scrubbed in-thread like that, and besides, better safe than sorry and all that.

And to get us back on topic: not sure if this has been mentioned before- I don't remember seeing it in the first post, at any rate- but when I was reading the neolithid entry earlier, I ran across its "trace teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm)" ability, which allows it to "trace the destination of any psionic or magical teleportation made by others within this power’s area within the last minute" and "teleport to the location yourself if you so desired (and if you know the psionic teleport power) as if you had “seen casually” the location." I know that Vaarsuvius's attempt to retreat via a greater teleport spell fizzled out, but do you guys think that MitD could have used this this to figure out where to send V and O-Chul even so? It's a point in the neolithid's favor, at least, though the lack of eyes still seems like a pretty big problem to me... I wonder how many other creatures have it?

[Valifor]

And to get us back on topic: not sure if this has been mentioned before- I don't remember seeing it in the first post, at any rate- but when I was reading the neolithid entry earlier, I ran across its "trace teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm)" ability, which allows it to "trace the destination of any psionic or magical teleportation made by others within this power’s area within the last minute" and "teleport to the location yourself if you so desired (and if you know the psionic teleport power) as if you had “seen casually” the location." I know that Vaarsuvius's attempt to retreat via a greater teleport spell fizzled out, but do you guys think that MitD could have used this this to figure out where to send V and O-Chul even so? It's a point in the neolithid's favor, at least, though the lack of eyes still seems like a pretty big problem to me... I wonder how many other creatures have it?

i have to agree with you here. that does make alot of sense. MitD doesn't even have to use the failed teleport attempt to trace back to the order, considering that V SUCCESSFULLY teleported there in the first place. he coulda just used the path from that one, provided it had been less than a minute that V teleported, which i think is at least plausible.

[DaggerPen]

i have to agree with you here. that does make alot of sense. MitD doesn't even have to use the failed teleport attempt to trace back to the order, considering that V SUCCESSFULLY teleported there in the first place. he coulda just used the path from that one, provided it had been less than a minute that V teleported, which i think is at least plausible.

I considered that, but the spell seems to specify that it detects destination rather than origin. I don't know if it could be used the other way around for something that teleported to the user's location, which is why I went with V's failed attempt. Either is a possibility, though.

[Savannah]

Alright, here’s an idea I’ve been considering off and on for a while. Various people have looked at a lot of D&D monsters, and I was wondering to myself what ability would explain the various reactions of the people at the circus scene. It struck me that Call of Cthulhu’s sanity system could result in numerous different reactions, depending on how much sanity damage one took and how it affected the person. CoC is also full of very powerful “ugly sonofabitch”s. :smallwink:

I went through the 6th edition CoC handbook, as it’s all I’ve got, and the only one that stood out to me was this:

Gug
Physical description: Gugs are vaguely humanoid, with “normal” legs and torso, but with two forearms on each arm. Its most defining feature is its mouth, which is at a 90-degree angle to the mouths of humanoids and takes up most of its head. It has two eyes, one on each side of the mouth.

The big three scenes:
Circus scene:
Pros: Seeing a gug costs 1d8 sanity points on a failed save, but 0 points on a successful save. This could explain the different reactions from the members of the audience.
Cons: To the best of my knowledge, there’s no reason that a gug would have trouble being looked at.

Tower scene:
Pros: Gugs have a significantly higher than average human strength. I’m not sure how to convert from CoC to D&D 3.5, so I don’t know exactly how much it is, but it’s a lot.
Cons: If it were a baby (due to size, see below), its strength would likely be lower.

Escape:
Pros: Gugs have a chance of knowing magic (approximately 10%, depends on the individual’s stats), and will only know a limited number of spells. This could conceivably give it a teleport, wish or similar spell without any lower level spells.
Cons: It’s a stretch.
Other:
General:
6th edition CoC is copyrighted 2005, but earlier editions (which I believe are very similar to 6th ed.) are copyrighted earlier. In addition, the gug originally appears in a Lovecraft book, so it far predates 2004. I’m not sure what that all means for being able to legally use it in the comic.

The description is unclear on whether gugs are able to speak. It implies that they can, as they are an intelligent race.

The description does not mention reproduction. However, the gugs are an intelligent race, implying that they reproduce.

The description does not mention sleep. However, gugs are native to the Dreamlands. Make of that what you will.

Pros:
Has a physical body, including two eyes, and a tongue.

Gugs “gleefully eat any surface dwellers” they can catch, i.e. normal creatures, including humans.

Could produce the earthquake with either extreme strength or a spell. Gugs have a stomp attack, but there is no mention of it causing earthquakes.

Seems to have decent armor. Not really convertible to D&D, so it’s hard to compare.

Mentally, gugs are the same as humans. He can have whatever mental scores are needed for the plot.

His shout could also be some sort of spell. However, the more spells he has, the less likely I find the odds.

Cons:
There is no reason that stereotypic big game hunters or Redcloak would recognize a CoC monster.

Gugs normally stand 20’ tall, so he would need to be a child or somehow shrunk to fit.

CoC is not D&D. So far, all major creatures have been from D&D.
Sorry this is so long, I was trying to hit on all the main points in the first post.

Thoughts?

[DaggerPen]

Alright, here’s an idea I’ve been considering off and on for a while. Various people have looked at a lot of D&D monsters, and I was wondering to myself what ability would explain the various reactions of the people at the circus scene. It struck me that Call of Cthulhu’s sanity system could result in numerous different reactions, depending on how much sanity damage one took and how it affected the person. CoC is also full of very powerful “ugly sonofabitch”s. :smallwink:

I went through the 6th edition CoC handbook, as it’s all I’ve got, and the only one that stood out to me was this:

Gug
Physical description: Gugs are vaguely humanoid, with “normal” legs and torso, but with two forearms on each arm. Its most defining feature is its mouth, which is at a 90-degree angle to the mouths of humanoids and takes up most of its head. It has two eyes, one on each side of the mouth.

The big three scenes:
Circus scene:
Pros: Seeing a gug costs 1d8 sanity points on a failed save, but 0 points on a successful save. This could explain the different reactions from the members of the audience.
Cons: To the best of my knowledge, there’s no reason that a gug would have trouble being looked at.

Tower scene:
Pros: Gugs have a significantly higher than average human strength. I’m not sure how to convert from CoC to D&D 3.5, so I don’t know exactly how much it is, but it’s a lot.
Cons: If it were a baby (due to size, see below), its strength would likely be lower.

Escape:
Pros: Gugs have a chance of knowing magic (approximately 10%, depends on the individual’s stats), and will only know a limited number of spells. This could conceivably give it a teleport, wish or similar spell without any lower level spells.
Cons: It’s a stretch.
Other:
General:
6th edition CoC is copyrighted 2005, but earlier editions (which I believe are very similar to 6th ed.) are copyrighted earlier. In addition, the gug originally appears in a Lovecraft book, so it far predates 2004. I’m not sure what that all means for being able to legally use it in the comic.

The description is unclear on whether gugs are able to speak. It implies that they can, as they are an intelligent race.

The description does not mention reproduction. However, the gugs are an intelligent race, implying that they reproduce.

The description does not mention sleep. However, gugs are native to the Dreamlands. Make of that what you will.

Pros:
Has a physical body, including two eyes, and a tongue.

Gugs “gleefully eat any surface dwellers” they can catch, i.e. normal creatures, including humans.

Could produce the earthquake with either extreme strength or a spell. Gugs have a stomp attack, but there is no mention of it causing earthquakes.

Seems to have decent armor. Not really convertible to D&D, so it’s hard to compare.

Mentally, gugs are the same as humans. He can have whatever mental scores are needed for the plot.

His shout could also be some sort of spell. However, the more spells he has, the less likely I find the odds.

Cons:
There is no reason that stereotypic big game hunters or Redcloak would recognize a CoC monster.

Gugs normally stand 20’ tall, so he would need to be a child or somehow shrunk to fit.

CoC is not D&D. So far, all major creatures have been from D&D.
Sorry this is so long, I was trying to hit on all the main points in the first post.

Thoughts?

Nice! The gug itself seems like a decent enough fit, though the language thing is a little iffy, and the idea of searching Call of Cthulhu in general seems promising.

Does anyone know if there's a good CoC to 3.5 conversion system out there?

*edit* This article (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020329x) says that the appendix in the Call of Cthulhu d20 Roleplaying Game has some monster conversions. Not sure if there are any online, though.

[Darakonis]

Skimmed through Dragon magazine issues 274 to 300 looking for monsters of CR 15+, found:

Dragon Magazine, issues 274-300
- Teratamorph, DR287 (CR 16)
- Orcwort, DR292 (CR 20)
- Thorciasid, DR296 (CR 22)
- Wurm, DR296 (CR varies)


and have added them to the list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711628&postcount=68)I'm compiling. It seems most of the Dragon magazine monsters are of lower CR. Also, many of the (good) Drag mag monsters were included in later books, such as the MMII, Fiend Folio, etc.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Bongos]

The Tarrasque debate has inspired me to change my avatar, I'll miss Therkla and the rest, but they were a little dated.

The Tarrasque looks pretty happy underneath the umbrella doesn't he? Awww...
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/tavatar.jpg

[Zolkabro]

Could everyone PLEASE stop critiscizing Grey Wolf! He has done a brilliant job with this thread, and if everyone carries on insulting him then we will get nowhere.

I understand that if your points get shot down then it is annoying, but if they do not fit the bill then you have to accept it. We can't say ideas are perfect when they are not, it would make the thread useless and stupid. Just accept that you are wrong. If you are right, well done! You have the answer! But if you are not then stop badgering Grey Wolf when he points out the flaws in your arguement.

Can we get back on to discussion, instead of yelling at the person who has worked the hardest in this entire thread?

So, we were discussing templates, and White Slaads.
Personally I think white slaads would be a bit hard to recognise for those hunters.

[Valifor]

So, we were discussing templates, and White Slaads.
Personally I think white slaads would be a bit hard to recognise for those hunters.

really? what makes you say that? as big game hunters, they probably have as much experience seeing random creatures as adventurers, so they probably have high knowledge skills. and it's not like slaad are hard to identify, and it's color coded for your convenience, so its not like u have to guess the type.

[Zolkabro]

really? what makes you say that? as big game hunters, they probably have as much experience seeing random creatures as adventurers, so they probably have high knowledge skills. and it's not like slaad are hard to identify, and it's color coded for your convenience, so its not like u have to guess the type.

Good point. I was thinking that a civilian probably couldn't recognise it, but a hunter might be able to.

I also think the white slaad fits the "ugly but beautiful" thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Tower scene:
Pros: Gugs have a significantly higher than average human strength. I’m not sure how to convert from CoC to D&D 3.5, so I don’t know exactly how much it is, but it’s a lot.
Cons: If it were a baby (due to size, see below), its strength would likely be lower.

Thoughts?

This seems to be the crux of the problems of the Gug. It is carrying the problems of any 'young' version, plus the added baggage of indeterminate strength. I don't know the CoC rules, but isn't there a list of strength values and how much they can lift? That might be a good way to approach conversion.

In any case, standard young version arguments: less strength, no growing in 30+ years we've known him, etc.


Good point. I was thinking that a civilian probably couldn't recognise it, but a hunter might be able to.

There is a good argument to be made that the hunters, due to being stereotypical big game hunters, can recognise anything and everything, because that's what being a SBGH is all about.

Grey Wolf

PD: thanks, everyone that has shown appreciation. It really helps.

[Ancalagon]

Nothing in it fully negates the BABY tarrasque

Impossible. The Monster Manual Entry blows this theory out of the water. It says there is only one Tarrasque. There are no baby-tarrasques. This is THE one big, big feature of the tarrasque.

While all other monsters can appear and exist more often the tarrasque is unique. IF one in the world exists, it's only one.

The tarrasque also cannot teleport others or even speak. It only wants to eat.

All these things have been said countless times before.

[Bongos]

Baby Tarrasque? Highly unlikely!

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/babyt.jpg

[Sliver]

A theory! :smallbiggrin:

MitD is a Weeping Angel! Teleporting, bad experience when looked at, (we have seen them move though, so even when watched it's possible...) stuff!

(I'm not going to defend that theory tho, for obvious reasons... :smalltongue:)

[Qwertystop]

Not sure if somebody already said this:
MitD almost certainly has some sort of amnesia, because he (A) Is not native to the rain forest, but thinks he was always there; and (B) he does not even know what he is, but I would think ANYTHING sentient would know its own species (Thog, for example)...

Another think I just realized about this is that it would explain


MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)

And he might be mixed up enough that it would explain


Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).

in the way that some young birds imprint on the first thing thing they see. The rest would have to be explained by saying that Elan's shoulder-slaad was not talking by rule of funny.

[Nerdanel]

The MitD's size is either Medium or Large, and I'd say it's highly likely he's Large based on his eye levels. The variance in his eye levels suggests that he normally walks in a crouch, is quadripedal, or some similar non-human arrangement, but he is able to rise more upright when needed. If he merely rises on his toes, then he has huge feet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Panel 3: eyes below hobgoblin eye level. Panel 4: eyes at hobgoblin eye level. Panel 8: eyes above hobgoblin eye level. Panel 9: eyes even more above hobgoblin eye level.

And then we have the case of the MitD's father, who is supposed to have been a lot bigger and eaten a lot more. Based on the emphasis in the MitD's speech, I'd say his father would have to be at least Huge, maybe even bigger than that. In connection with the MitD's general childishness, this is strong evidence for the MitD being a young specimen of a species that grows a lot bigger than his current state. The other options would be that the MitD has a half-breed template of some sort or his species is one of those with non-standard parenthood (Dream Larva). You could also argue that the MitD hasn't seen his father in a very, very long time and is confused about their current relative sizes and appetites, but I don't find that a particularly convincing argument.

The MitD not having grown visibly during the timespan of the story is easy enough to explain. His species is simply slow to mature both physically and mentally, much like the OOTS world Elves and Dragons.

[Ancalagon]

Wait a second: Why aren't "normal dragons" in the list?

Am I stupid and cannot find the normal dragon in the list for proposed ideas.
Sure, we have the epic dragon but that is too big.

But what about a normal dragon?

Sure, there are features that do not fit and other that do, but that is basically the same for all proposed ideas.

A normal dragon, for example a black dragon, has quite that many traits that DO fit what we know:

Pros:
It has damage reduction,
it has a bigger father (it even has a father!),
it is not something Rich made up,
based on its variety, it could be known, but uncommon in the jungle.
It's a dragon and has charisma (12 base, so up to 20 natural with points buyable) but also a fearful presence (which would explain why people think it's ugly).
It ages slowly, so it could have been around when Xykon found it.
It can eat and digest (apparently) basically everthing.
Dragons are pretty strong.

Cons:
Probably would be easy to recognise,
too weak (for the earthquake or for hitting miko that far from the tower),
no wish, teleport,
no other spell abilities,
DR and HPs are not high enough for the "it tickles" from the miko-fight.

I think the last two issues (str, teleport/wish) can be handwaved away (strange initiate power, class levels). I also think there are more issues for and against.

I just wondered why I could not find the normal dragon as option in 3 (probably just got forgotten ;)). Sure it's no perfect fit but it fits well enough to be listed among the other things. Black Dragon would also be a good explanation what's it doing in the darkness all the time.

Aside from the serious stuff above, I propose the joke idea: a midget-dragon. Black Great Wyrm, just in the size "large". That solves nearly all issues we have. ;)

[Kish]

1) Dragons have colored speech bubbles, the creature in the darkness does not.

2) Your joke idea of a midget dragon is the only dragon that doesn't run into either a "not powerful enough, can't Wish or teleport others" problem or a, "Way, way, way too big" problem.

[Ancalagon]

1) Dragons have colored speech bubbles, the creature in the darkness does not.

Filtered through the darkness. No really, it fits better than many ideas that already RARE in the list.


2) Your joke idea of a midget dragon is the only dragon that doesn't run into either a "not powerful enough, can't Wish or teleport others" problem or a, "Way, way, way too big" problem.

I am not entirely sure if you really got the "joke" part... the important part is the "joke" section... ;)

[Kish]

Yes, I got it. My point is that while "midget dragon" in the joke section fits well, I can't see any way "dragon" would fit anywhere else.

[Ancalagon]

Well, apparently we differ on that and I doubt we can solve that in a discussion, as all key issues are already posted.

I think a "real dragon" (in the for the size appropiate age category) is missing in that list as it does not have more cons than other creates that are already in there and proposed that.

I think it should get its listing.

You disagree.

So far I do not know what else I could add without turning this into another pointless, pages-long, spammy discussion about details where both sides thing other is plainly wrong in regard to the final interpretation of the case.

[Mawhrin Skel]

fearful presence (which would explain why people think it's ugly).

Xykon thinks it's very ugly, and as a Lich Xykon is immune to mind affecting attacks.

[Kish]

I imagine Grey Wolf will list the dragon now that it's been seriously proposed.

I hope you don't think he's going to turn out to be a standard dragon, however.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

in the way that some young birds imprint on the first thing thing they see. The rest would have to be explained by saying that Elan's shoulder-slaad was not talking by rule of funny.

I've warmed up lately to the idea of a foundling father for MitD. On the upside, it would explain his confused mental status (imagine a chaotic evil creature raised by a legal good gold dragon). On the downside, it would be dastardly of Rich to give us that clue... at least for now. If Rich at a later date gives us more insight into MitD's backstory (before he is unveiled, that is), this may make more sense.

And yes, Elan's shoulder law and chaos are clearly rule of funny. I doubt that pure chaos and pure law creatures really talk like that, it's just Elan trying to use a brain that simply isn't that good.


Wait a second: Why aren't "normal dragons" in the list?

Easy enough question to answer: because they have not been proposed before (so much for that :smallwink:). We have some weird dragons, though, such as a crystal one and a prismatic and IIRC technically the linnorm family are dragons too.

In the con section, you've pretty much pointed it out yourself. We can discuss if Tarrasque and slaads are recognisable or not, but dragons definetely are. They are made into plushies, after all. Size is also an issue (I'll touch on that in detail further down), but it comes down to: it's either small and too weak, and lacking spells that can explain the escape, or it's too big for the box.

I also want to point out that I dislike terror as explanation for the circus' reactions, since terror does not lend itself to vomiting. Vomiting points to stomach-turning disgust. Terror would be white faces, people running away and others frozen in place (like a dear before headlights). I'll give it that there might be some digested food, but usually coming out the opposite end, if you get my drift. But not vomiting.


I think a "real dragon" (in the for the size appropiate age category) is missing in that list as it does not have more cons than other creates that are already in there and proposed that.

I think it should get its listing.

You disagree.

So long as you're not suggesting I add it to the forerunners, I doubt he disagrees. I certainly do not. It is not on the list, as I said, because it's the first time 'normal' dragons have been suggested. They'll get placed in the appropriate list soon enough (man, 10 pages already?...)


The MitD's size is either Medium or Large, and I'd say it's highly likely he's Large based on his eye levels. The variance in his eye levels suggests that he normally walks in a crouch, is quadripedal, or some similar non-human arrangement, but he is able to rise more upright when needed. If he merely rises on his toes, then he has huge feet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Panel 3: eyes below hobgoblin eye level. Panel 4: eyes at hobgoblin eye level. Panel 8: eyes above hobgoblin eye level. Panel 9: eyes even more above hobgoblin eye level.

Agreed. I think the crouch position fits best (or inhuman, of course - because that's a wildcard). I still think we cannot trust too much drawing clues, but it really feels like MitD does have functional forelimbs and still can hold his standard position.


You could also argue that the MitD hasn't seen his father in a very, very long time and is confused about their current relative sizes and appetites, but I don't find that a particularly convincing argument.

It lacks evidence, but that's pretty much true for all the scenarios and thus the basic "father is bigger and hungrier" must be the preferable right now. That said, I don't think we can completely discard the "remembers him bigger because MitD was smaller at the time" scenario. This is a well-known psychological memory present in most children: adults are seen as giants, and pretty much all-powerful, specially father figures. MitD is stuck in child mode, and he might still have the memory, even if since then he has achieved adult size (but not adult mind).

I'll repeat, it has very little evidential support, but the whole matter of MitD's parentage is in the same situation, pretty much.


The MitD not having grown visibly during the timespan of the story is easy enough to explain. His species is simply slow to mature both physically and mentally, much like the OOTS world Elves and Dragons.

Even for long living species, there is certain absolutes that breed true no matter what. Growing is not linear (http://www.growtall.asia/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/human_growth_height_chart.png), but instead get growth spurts very early, as an evolutionary adaptation against being eaten.

The question then is: what is the growth spurt of a recently-born colossal creature? As far as I know, the information is not published anywhere, but I seriously doubt that a colossal creature would spend any amount of time in medium size, and certainly not years (and remember, it's not just 30 years, it's also all the time he spent in the jungle, first with his father, then alone). I would probably object less to youngling phase of smaller adult creatures (huge, like you mentioned, is fine).

Grey Wolf

[Ancalagon]

I hope you don't think he's going to turn out to be a standard dragon, however.

Unlikely. But it won't be any "clear" thing anyway. It'll always need some fitting, no matter what it actully going to be.


So long as you're not suggesting I add it to the forerunners

Nothing that has not been proposed for a thousand times over the last felt 100 years in like 10000 threads has any chance to become a forerunner. ;)

I actually find it somewhat strange normal dragons have not yet proposed. I mean, we basically are through everything and anything in pop-culture that could even slightly fit. ;)