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ReluctantDragon
2010-06-14, 03:26 PM
If you had to use the standard PHB fighter class, and had access to all 3.5 books to assist with it, assuming you HAD to go all the way to 20 with that fighter class...

What type of build would you have for a knife fighter?

Is there a better way to build it with other core classes?

What about PrC's to go into, assuming a core base class, for a knife fighter?

I am fully aware that ToB does everything fighter based better. That's not what this is about. Attempting to operate within the boundaries of non-ToB material and get the most optimization from that is available for such.

Thanks for any help provided!

RD

Caphi
2010-06-14, 03:28 PM
My problem with the fighter isn't that it's bad at fighting, though it frequently is. My problem is it can't do anything else.

gbprime
2010-06-14, 03:29 PM
Straight fighter works rather well if you use the Three Mountains feat and blunt weapons. Nauseating goodness.

But a KNIFE fighter? As in daggers, or as in swords in general?

PId6
2010-06-14, 03:30 PM
Hmm... knife fighter...

Use Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) and take the TWF line, then dual wield knives and just focus on Sneak Attacking, maybe with a few points in UMD for things like Wands of Grave Strike/Golem Strike/Vine Strike (Apprentice: Spellcaster). Definitely taking Craven, and maybe Education + Knowledge Devotion.

If PrCs are allowed, Invisible Blade works nicely with this concept, as does Assassin. If core multiclassing is allowed, I'd take at least three levels of rogue for Penetrating Strike.

Knaight
2010-06-14, 03:31 PM
I'm fairly sure you could mimic Jack B. Quick with a knife fighter, though you would be below the normal Jack B. Quick level. Otherwise, grappling is your friend, which means magic that gets size up to absurd levels.

erikun
2010-06-14, 03:31 PM
So we have to be Fighter 20. No prestige class, no multiclassing, and need to use knives as weapons?

I would assume TWF along with Quick Draw for throwing. Perhaps unarmed combat + tripping for some bonuses as you hit. You can pick up ToB maneuvers through feats, although I'm not too sure how well that would work with knives.

To be honest, I'd be more interested in a Longstaff fighter or Glave/unarmed than Knives.

gbprime
2010-06-14, 03:35 PM
Hmm... knife fighter...

Use Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) and take the TWF line, then dual wield knives and just focus on Sneak Attacking, maybe with a few points in UMD for things like Wands of Grave Strike/Golem Strike/Vine Strike (Apprentice: Spellcaster). Definitely taking Craven, and maybe Education + Knowledge Devotion.

This. Yes.

Congrats, you're a rogue with a great BAB and lots of hit points, but no skills.

Another_Poet
2010-06-14, 03:35 PM
If you had to use the standard PHB fighter class, and had access to all 3.5 books to assist with it, assuming you HAD to go all the way to 20 with that fighter class...

What type of build would you have for a knife fighter?

Probably TWF kukri specialist with Improved Critical.

Re. other classes: there are surely better ones but I don't know enough non-core. The same goes for PrC's.

ap

Amphetryon
2010-06-14, 03:50 PM
If you had to use the standard PHB fighter class, and had access to all 3.5 books to assist with it, assuming you HAD to go all the way to 20 with that fighter class...

What type of build would you have for a knife fighter?

I am fully aware that ToB does everything fighter based better. That's not what this is about. Attempting to operate within the boundaries of non-ToB material and get the most optimization from that is available for such.
Strongheart Halfling Zhentarim Fighter would probably be my choice, utilizing a multi-thrower approach with Quick Draw and as many Ranged feats as I could, including things like Hidden Talent/Psionic Shot/Fell Shot.



Is there a better way to build it with other core classes?

Ranger/Rogue multiclassing is superior in virtually every way for this endeavor, though you might want Fighter 2 stuffed in just for the Feats.


What about PrC's to go into, assuming a core base class, for a knife fighter?Master Thrower is the obvious choice for the plan I would pick; Halfling Whisperknife pairs with it well if you went the Strongheart Halfling route.

SurlySeraph
2010-06-14, 05:16 PM
The main issue here is finding a way to deal enough damage to be worthwhile. You can't trip with daggers, and while a grappling build might be feasible with nothing but Fighter levels it would be hard to make a great one. So you have to focus on direct damage. A sneak attack fighter as described above is probably the best way to do this.

By taking the TWF chain, and the more advanced weapon specialization feats (like Slashing Flurry), you might be able make a build focused on doing lots of attacks for large amounts of damage that aren't dependent on flanking or getting opponents flat-footed; it probably wouldn't be better than a sneak attacker, though, especially if you didn't use Martial Study for those nice Tiger Claw maneuvers. Adding Knowledge Devotion would also help, though you'd likely need to take Able Learner and have high INT to get full mileage out of it.

Emmerask
2010-06-14, 05:24 PM
2h weapon + shocktrooper then charge and kill... done
Yes, it can be build better with other classes and dips here and there but even a fighter charger can drop nearly everything with one attack :smallwink:

gallagher
2010-06-14, 05:39 PM
2h weapon + shocktrooper then charge and kill... done
Yes, it can be build better with other classes and dips here and there but even a fighter charger can drop nearly everything with one attack :smallwink: OP asked for a knife fighter, which is 1 handed

Emmerask
2010-06-14, 05:40 PM
Ah sorry I thought that was just a build idea he had but nothing set in stone, sry

Flickerdart
2010-06-14, 05:42 PM
Dungeoncrasher Fighter is held as being quite good (at least until 6th level, 2-4 beyond the standard Fighter depending on who you ask), but it won't help you with knifing people.

Weezer
2010-06-14, 05:52 PM
How about two aptitude kukris, lightning maces, improved critical (or keen) and Blood in the Water (through Martial study/stance). That should get you a crit and rapid attack fiend.

Draz74
2010-06-14, 05:52 PM
Probably TWF kukri specialist with Improved Critical.

This. With Martial Study (Wolf Fang Strike), Martial Stance (Blood in the Water), and eventually Martial Study (Dancing Mongoose) and Martial Study (Pouncing Charge).

AstralFire
2010-06-14, 05:55 PM
This. With Martial Study (Wolf Fang Strike), Martial Stance (Blood in the Water), and eventually Martial Study (Dancing Mongoose) and Martial Study (Pouncing Charge).

That is decidedly going into ToB.

Draz74
2010-06-14, 05:58 PM
That is decidedly going into ToB.

No, decidedly going into ToB would be using Warblade instead of Fighter. :smalltongue:

(I admit, I didn't pay attention to the details of the OP very carefully. But some people don't realize how much ToB improves even the core Fighter class, so maybe having this pointed out will still be helpful.)

ReluctantDragon
2010-06-14, 11:07 PM
No, decidedly going into ToB would be using Warblade instead of Fighter. :smalltongue:

(I admit, I didn't pay attention to the details of the OP very carefully. But some people don't realize how much ToB improves even the core Fighter class, so maybe having this pointed out will still be helpful.)

Mmm.

Attempted to show in the OP that while, yes, I am aware that every fighter question posted in these forums is answered with "Needs moar ToB", that's not what this exercise is about. This is about seeing what the most optimal way of building a knife (re: 2 daggers, 1 in each hand) fighter would look like.

So, while I thank you for your contribution, it doesn't really answer the question.

RD.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-06-14, 11:13 PM
He listed 4 feats. Those feats are on the fighter bonus feat list, furthermore. Entirely fighter-compatible.

Jarian
2010-06-14, 11:15 PM
This is about seeing what the most optimal way of building a knife (re: 2 daggers, 1 in each hand) fighter would look like.

It would look an awful lot like a rogue.

More specifically, the Sneak Attack and Thug variant fighters, which I think have already been linked.

I mean, there's just... no point to playing a normal fighter with knives. You don't trip, you don't disarm, you don't do damage... The only way to fix that and still have "Fighter" written on your sheet is to basically turn yourself into a rogue with ACFs.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-14, 11:25 PM
This guy. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick) It may look like I'm being unoriginal, but I just love the concept enough to want to blatantly steal it.

ReluctantDragon
2010-06-15, 06:09 AM
He listed 4 feats. Those feats are on the fighter bonus feat list, furthermore. Entirely fighter-compatible.

Oooh! Semantics! Sweet!




I am fully aware that ToB does everything fighter based better. That's not what this is about. Attempting to operate within the boundaries of non-ToB material and get the most optimization from that is available for such.

Thanks for any help provided!

RD

Emphasis mine, from original post. So, while you are correct, it IS all fighter feats, the original point about no TOB stands. Hence, not really much point to your post.

Thanks, though!

ReluctantDragon
2010-06-15, 06:12 AM
It would look an awful lot like a rogue.

More specifically, the Sneak Attack and Thug variant fighters, which I think have already been linked.

I mean, there's just... no point to playing a normal fighter with knives. You don't trip, you don't disarm, you don't do damage... The only way to fix that and still have "Fighter" written on your sheet is to basically turn yourself into a rogue with ACFs.



This guy. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick) It may look like I'm being unoriginal, but I just love the concept enough to want to blatantly steal it.

So, pretty much in terms of optimization you have to go outside of fighter or leave dual knife fighting to be at all effective.

Got it.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I shall move forward in that vein.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-15, 06:16 AM
First I'd spend my skill points to take Perform(Juggle) cross-class. Then I'd get someone to make me a brightly-colored wig. In combat I'd juggle the knives and wear the wig and hope they have a fear of clowns.


(In all seriousness there isn't very much you can do with it besides use the sneak attack variant. Unfortunately TWF relies heavily on bonus damage to be viable, something the fighter has hard time getting.)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-15, 06:34 AM
Definitely get the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), you can rename it "Bully" and it fits into any setting and doesn't require membership in any organization. If you don't want to click the link, here's what it does:

ZHENTARIM SOLDIER (FIGHTER)
The Zhentarim work across Faerun to bring other
realms under their influence and eventual control. To
that end, Zhentarim Soldiers learn that intimidation is
as effective for coercing the masses as physical force is.
Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
To take a Zhentarim Soldier substitution level, a character
must be a member of the Zhentarim and about to
take his 3rd, 5th, or 9th level of fighter.

Class Skills
A Zhentarim Soldier fighter has the same selection of
class skills as a standard fighter does, plus Bluff and
Diplomacy.
Skill Points at Each Level : 2 + Int modifier.

Zhentarim Soldier Substitution Levels

Base
Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Extended intimidation
9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Swift demoralization
Class Features
All the following are features of the Zhentarim Soldier
substitution levels.
Bonus Feat: A Zhentarim Soldier gains Skill
Focus (Intimidation) as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Extended Intimidation (Ex): A target successfully
intimidated by a 5th-level Zhentarim Soldier suffers
lasting effects. Instead of ending when the
Zhentarim Soldier leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate
skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
his departure. Thereafter, the targetís attitude toward
the Zhentarim Soldier shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering
fear remains. Whenever the Zhentarim Soldier
returns to someone he has previously intimidated, he
gains a +4 bonus on his Intimidate check to re-establish
the effect.
Swift Demoralization (Ex): A 9th-level Zhentarim
Soldier can use the demoralize opponent aspect
of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a
standard action.
Unlike most other substitution levels, nothing is traded out for what you gain for taking these. It's all additional abilities gained at an otherwise dead level. Add to that the Never Outnumbered skill trick and the feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, and Intimidate becomes the most valuable in-combat skill in the game. Take Dreadful Wrath from PGtF if possible, otherwise get Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon, and you can debuff an entire encounter and use intimidate to keep multiple opponents crowd controlled the entire fight. (Already shaken opponent is demoralized and cowers for one round, is frightened for one round and has to flee, and spends another round getting back into the fight.)

From there, you get the Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape. It basically allows you to bull rush opponents into obstacles for obscene amounts of damage. Use Goliath as your base race and buy off the level adjustment, using the "Powerful Races at 1st Level" variant on page 190 of PGtF to play a +1 LA creature from ECL 1 if necessary. Get Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Knockback from RoS and every attack you make gets a free bull rush to knock an enemy back, and if they hit an obstacle you deal additional damage. Take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down, and every time you hit you get a free trip check to knock them prone. Every time you hit, you knock the opponent away and you knock them down. Now that opponent has to spend a move-action to get up and another move-action to get back into melee, so every attack you make wastes an opponent's entire turn. Combat Reflexes with EWP: Spiked Chain is an obvious choice here, and don't forget that Shaken opponents take a -2 to those rolls vs trip and bull rush.

Pick up Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Starspawn from Lords of Madness and you get +5 ft. reach and the ability to fly. Take Willing Deformity and Deformity: Tall from Heroes of Horror and you get an additional +5 ft. reach and a bonus on Intimidate checks. That leaves you with a 15 ft. natural reach, which is doubled to 30 ft. with a reach weapon such as a spiked chain. Spend 182,000 gp on a Healing Blood graft from Lords of Madness to permanently gain Fast Healing 2 as an extraordinary special quality, which can only be taken away if you get killed and need a new body. Even in a party of optimized spellcasters this character can hold his own, and his ability to go all day and go day and night and then some without recovering any expended abilities makes him a valuable addition to any optimized party.

Edit: I sort of got distracted there and forgot that you wanted a knife-fighter, but this is still all useful advice, much of it still applicable to the character in question.