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Gadora
2010-06-14, 06:50 PM
A simple question: at what spell level would you put the spell Detect Lead?

PapaNachos
2010-06-14, 06:53 PM
I would have it as a cantrip or 1st level at most.

Edit:
The 'detect' spells are for the most part 1st level spells.

Detect Metal and Minerals from Races of Faerun will do what you want, but its overkill unless you want to be able to detect other stuff as well.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-14, 06:54 PM
Doesn't lead usually block divinations? I'd guess it must be undetectable.

Flickerdart
2010-06-14, 06:55 PM
It's perfectly reasonable that a caster Detecting Magic, Thoughts or Alignment knows when the spell is being blocked, and if it's not blocked by dirt and such, it's blocked by lead.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-14, 06:57 PM
It's perfectly reasonable that a caster Detecting Magic, Thoughts or Alignment knows when the spell is being blocked, and if it's not blocked by dirt and such, it's blocked by lead.

Just remember not to open the lead-lined chest, because THERE'S KRYPTONITE INSIDE!!!1 :smallbiggrin:

Gadora
2010-06-14, 07:02 PM
I would have it as a cantrip or 1st level at most.

Edit:
The 'detect' spells are for the most part 1st level spells.

Detect Metal and Minerals from Races of Faerun will do what you want, but its overkill unless you want to be able to detect other stuff as well.

Now my casters have to start taking that spell, in case they need to do some heavy duty searching.

Kira_the_5th
2010-06-14, 07:12 PM
It's perfectly reasonable that a caster Detecting Magic, Thoughts or Alignment knows when the spell is being blocked, and if it's not blocked by dirt and such, it's blocked by lead.

I don't know. My group just ran a covert ops campaign where a lead lined cabbage cart saved our behinds from detection on more than one occasion. If you know that your detection is being blocked, then you're going to get suspicious about why it's being blocked, leading to a search for the thing that's blocking it, leading to either the fact that any effort to keep something undetected is ultimately worthless, or the aforementioned kryptonite.

AS for the OP, I'd say 1st level should be fine, and seems like something NPCs would be using more, such as border patrol guards searching your party for any contraband while entering a kingdom. So low level is good, as it doesn't take a high level wizard in every town just to check for things like this, etc.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-14, 07:14 PM
On a more serious note, I think if lead was easily detectable, it would ruin the whole point of even having lead in the game (except as a paperweight).

Jack_Simth
2010-06-14, 07:29 PM
A simple question: at what spell level would you put the spell Detect Lead?
I don't know... how far ahead of you is the other person? Do you need it to be able to penetrate any anti-scrying measures? Do you need it to be able to measure in terms other than distance?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-14, 07:35 PM
I think the most important question is would the spell detect a lead object if it was behind a thin sheet of lead?

lsfreak
2010-06-14, 07:36 PM
I'd say it shouldn't be possible. In CScoundrel, for example, there's pockets lined with lead that are used for smuggling - which would be completely useless when the spellcaster can just detect lead to uncover any and all lead-lined pockets.

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 07:42 PM
Doesn't lead usually block divinations? I'd guess it must be undetectable.

I'm inclined to agree. It would be like trying to locate a soft object with sonar.

But hey, magic.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-14, 07:57 PM
This leads to an interesting question. Can Locate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateobject.htm) find a thin sheet of lead? :smallconfused:

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-14, 08:34 PM
This leads to an interesting question. Can Locate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateobject.htm) find a thin sheet of lead? :smallconfused:

It can, but only as long as there are no other thin sheets of lead in the way.

Safety Sword
2010-06-14, 08:45 PM
It can, but only as long as there are no other thin sheets of lead in the way.

I giggled.

On topic, if you go to the trouble of researching a spell to detect lead, I think I'd allow it to work. It's not game breaking. Knowing that there is a lead barrier still doesn't tell you what is behind it, just that someone is hiding something.

And as for lead lined pockets... they shouldn't be a button labeled "IWIN". Smuggling should carry some risks, even if you have thought ahead.

AstralFire
2010-06-14, 08:47 PM
I giggled.

On topic, if you go to the trouble of researching a spell to detect lead, I think I'd allow it to work. It's not game breaking. Knowing that there is a lead barrier still doesn't tell you what is behind it, just that someone is hiding something.

And as for lead lined pockets... they shouldn't be a button labeled "IWIN".

But magic should?

Why not search a person?

I would not allow this spell, or I would make it a 2nd or 3rd level spell or something. D&D's magic is so flavorless because its rules are mostly arbitrary; keeping lead as a type of metal that's inherently resistant to divination is neat.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-14, 08:56 PM
It can, but only as long as there are no other thin sheets of lead in the way.
OK then; we've got our answer: it's level 2. No custom spell needed. :smallbiggrin:

Safety Sword
2010-06-14, 09:03 PM
But magic should?

Why not search a person?

I would not allow this spell, or I would make it a 2nd or 3rd level spell or something. D&D's magic is so flavorless because its rules are mostly arbitrary; keeping lead as a type of metal that's inherently resistant to divination is neat.

Typically I have wizards and fighters guarding gates of cities etc. So, you'll get magic and a physical search, yes. One leads to the other, just like customs at the airport. Considering that you can only have one detection spell running at a time, how useful do you really think this would be? Very situational at best.

Like I said earlier, I'd allow it if someone went out of their way to research the spell. I'd also then put lead in lots more places, just so it's also not a button labeled "IWIN".

Player: I cast "Detect Lead"

Me: You're detecting lead through the door ahead.

Player: I concentrate for a while longer.

Me: There's only 1 aura.

Player. I concentrate a bit more.

Me: The lead is approximately 10 ft from the door. It appears to be a large amount of lead.

Player: Must be something good hidden behind all that lead! I open the door.

Me: A 20 ft tall golem, made from lead swings toward you and lumbers forward. Roll for initiative. Muhahaha!

megabyter5
2010-06-14, 09:08 PM
I saw the title of this thread and immediately decided it was a paradox. It is a spell designed to discover the very object it is blocked by, provided it isn't blocked, such as by the object it's trying to find in the first place, which is only detected if the spell isn't blocked, such as by the object it's trying to find in the first place, which is only detected if the spell isn't blocked, such as by the object it's trying to find in the first place, which is only detected if the spell isn't blocked... Ow, my brain!

Ravens_cry
2010-06-14, 09:22 PM
I'm inclined to agree. It would be like trying to locate a soft object with sonar.

But hey, magic.
Couldn't you locate a soft object by it's "shadow", by seen what you can't see?

Riffington
2010-06-14, 09:32 PM
Detect Lead should be a pretty low-level spell. In a medieval+sanitation setting, you should have lead within 30' of you most of the time (buried rocks/trash, pipes, sling bullets, drinking cups, windows, paint, etc). I suppose you are looking for a still-low-level version that only detects huge chunks of lead (pipes and walls)? Because surely you are not looking for the 9th level version that detects "lead that is currently blocking a divination of mine"?



Couldn't you locate a soft object by it's "shadow", by seen what you can't see?

You would be locating hard objects that way. Which is what lead is, radiologically speaking. It's so bright you can't see anything near it; it itself is trivial to see.

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 09:33 PM
I saw the title of this thread and immediately decided it was a paradox. It is a spell designed to discover the very object it is blocked by, provided it isn't blocked, such as by the object it's trying to find in the first place, which is only detected if the spell isn't blocked, such as by the object it's trying to find in the first place, which is only detected if the spell isn't blocked, such as by the object it's trying to find in the first place, which is only detected if the spell isn't blocked... Ow, my brain!

...carry the three...


Couldn't you locate a soft object by it's "shadow", by seen what you can't see?

That strikes me as running into the same problem a sheet of lead would cause when detecting something else. Do you sense nothing because the spell is blocked, or because there is nothing there to sense?

Jack_Simth
2010-06-14, 09:40 PM
...carry the three...



That strikes me as running into the same problem a sheet of lead would cause when detecting something else. Do you sense nothing because the spell is blocked, or because there is nothing there to sense?

Hmm... ah, new spell: Detect Space
Divination
Level: Meh
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard Action
Range: 60 feet
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute/level

You detect space. Detected space may or may not be currently occupied by air, water, earth, or other materials, but it is still there and is detected in exactly the same manner. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of space.

2nd Round
The amount of space in the area.

3rd Round
The location of all space in the area.

Each round, you can turn to space in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

There we go... now you can detect lead by absence (you don't detect the space there).

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 09:56 PM
Each round, you can turn to space in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

There we go... now you can detect lead by absence (you don't detect the space there).

Humor aside... :smalltongue:

The problem still exists, just in a new form. Do you detect nothing because there is lead on the other side of the wall, because the wall is too thick, or because the far side has an inch of metal welded to it?

And you'll always detect the "space" directly beyond your nose, leaving you with the unenviable task of having to quantify the space in your emanation and subtract it from what your magical senses tell you to determine the amount of space that should be beyond the barrier in question.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-14, 10:04 PM
Treasure scent detects precious metals (presumably including lead, if it's valuable), is a 3rd level spell, and lasts hours/level (so 5 hours at least). Spell Compendium.

balistafreak
2010-06-14, 10:30 PM
My group just ran a covert ops campaign where a lead lined cabbage cart saved our behinds from detection on more than one occasion.

Have to ask: who the @#$! makes a lead-lined cabbage cart?

No really. Brain damage is bad for you, ya know, even worse than cabbage. :smallwink:

AstralFire
2010-06-14, 10:37 PM
Have to ask: who the @#$! makes a lead-lined cabbage cart?

No really. Brain damage is bad for you, ya know, even worse than cabbage. :smallwink:

Lex Luthor.

Another_Poet
2010-06-14, 11:21 PM
I think people are taking the div-blocking powers of lead far too literally.

A spell specifically designed to detect lead would detect it just fine. Sounds like a 0-level spell to me and a pretty worthless one at that. Unless you are a plumber who is trying to pinpoint the location of lead pipes inside a wall perhaps.

To whoever said it would render lead-lined smuggling pockets useless, no it wouldn't. Lead was commonly used in many objects in the middle ages and knowing that someone is carrying lead on them is not incriminating.

To the OP, if your players are so worried about missing hidden treasure that they are trying to defeat lead barriers that may or may not be shielding treasure troves in the walls, you are being way too cunning in hiding treasure. Ease up and let them find some good stuff.

This is the Divination equivalent of checking every 5' square of every hallway for traps before walking across it. Yikes people.

Another_Poet
2010-06-14, 11:23 PM
Treasure scent detects precious metals (presumably including lead, if it's valuable), is a 3rd level spell, and lasts hours/level (so 5 hours at least). Spell Compendium.

Also, sorry for the double post but lead was among the least valuable metals available in ancient times and the middle ages. By a strict reading of this spell it would not detect lead, unless the setting is a non-generic-fantasy setting and has a scarcity of lead for some reason.

Gadora
2010-06-14, 11:33 PM
To the OP, if your players are so worried about missing hidden treasure that they are trying to defeat lead barriers that may or may not be shielding treasure troves in the walls, you are being way too cunning in hiding treasure. Ease up and let them find some good stuff.

This was inspired by the fact that in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137707), a good number of the plans for hiding the phylactery involved sticking it in a leaden box. In all honesty, I started this thread because I thought it would turn out some amusing results, and it has.

EDIT: I may also include this spell in a campaign setting I'm working on, because it just makes sense to me (from a world-building perspective) that it would exist.

Keld Denar
2010-06-14, 11:56 PM
Hmm... ah, new spell: Detect Space

Better than Detect Self (http://www.hahnlibrary.net/rpgs/101spells.html)...#93 if you care

2xMachina
2010-06-15, 02:58 AM
I think people are taking the div-blocking powers of lead far too literally.

A spell specifically designed to detect lead would detect it just fine. Sounds like a 0-level spell to me and a pretty worthless one at that. Unless you are a plumber who is trying to pinpoint the location of lead pipes inside a wall perhaps.

To whoever said it would render lead-lined smuggling pockets useless, no it wouldn't. Lead was commonly used in many objects in the middle ages and knowing that someone is carrying lead on them is not incriminating.

To the OP, if your players are so worried about missing hidden treasure that they are trying to defeat lead barriers that may or may not be shielding treasure troves in the walls, you are being way too cunning in hiding treasure. Ease up and let them find some good stuff.

This is the Divination equivalent of checking every 5' square of every hallway for traps before walking across it. Yikes people.

Steady dungeon demolition helps to find loot (get an adamantine weapon, or the Stone Dragon maneuver). Also, sell the dungeon pieces for loot.

Sliver
2010-06-15, 03:56 AM
You could use that Detect Space and make an item with a bit of modification.

Choose a square. The item detects the amount of space in it after 3 rounds of pointing at that spot. If the amount is less than the volume supposed to be there, it gives you a positive result which manifests by showing two parallel lines, otherwise, a single line is shown to say it's negative.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-15, 04:39 AM
Also, sorry for the double post but lead was among the least valuable metals available in ancient times and the middle ages. By a strict reading of this spell it would not detect lead, unless the setting is a non-generic-fantasy setting and has a scarcity of lead for some reason.

Perhaps the divination-blocking quality of lead has increased its value?

Lysander
2010-06-15, 05:44 AM
Whoah. Hold on people. Lead doesn't have any particularly special divination blocking qualities. It's just a matter of density:


The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Dense things block the spell. The denser it is the thinner the barrier can be. Lead is very dense so you only need a thin sheet. But presumably (unless you want to slavishly follow RAW) anything dense enough or thick enough would also work.

Killer Angel
2010-06-15, 06:36 AM
Dense things block the spell. The denser it is the thinner the barrier can be. Lead is very dense so you only need a thin sheet. But presumably (unless you want to slavishly follow RAW) anything dense enough or thick enough would also work.

Funny. 1 inch of common metal blocks the spell... so, by RAW Adamantine don't?
(neither 3 feet of Darkwood, it appears... :smalltongue:)

hewhosaysfish
2010-06-15, 07:04 AM
Funny. 1 inch of common metal blocks the spell... so, by RAW Adamantine don't?
(neither 3 feet of Darkwood, it appears... :smalltongue:)

Sorry to nitpick your nitpick but while it does limit itself to "common" metals (implying that adamantine would indeed not work and also that lead is not common) it doesn't place any qualifiers on the type of wood.


Meanwhile, I am very amused by the thought of some town guards using detect lead to try and sniff out smugglers, strip-searching some distressed plumber while a rogue with an unshielded magic item in his pocket just strolls through the gate.

Killer Angel
2010-06-15, 07:07 AM
Sorry to nitpick your nitpick but while it does limit itself to "common" metals (implying that adamantine would indeed not work and also that lead is not common) it doesn't place any qualifiers on the type of wood.


Ah, yes, only metal must be "common".
I stand corrected.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-15, 07:25 AM
Whoah. Hold on people. Lead doesn't have any particularly special divination blocking qualities. It's just a matter of density:

Dense things block the spell. The denser it is the thinner the barrier can be. Lead is very dense so you only need a thin sheet. But presumably (unless you want to slavishly follow RAW) anything dense enough or thick enough would also work.

Yes, but since lead is the most effective barrier on the list, it clearly would be the most valuable (assuming you thought the ability to block divinations was valuable).

Person_Man
2010-06-15, 08:42 AM
A Ring of X-Ray Vision (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_X-Ray_Vision) is also blocked by lead, and explicitly lets you see through things otherwise. So while using Detect Magic or some similar spell to detect lead might be iffy because we don't know how the lead conceals the aura/detection, I think that having a Ring of X-Ray vision should explicitly let you detect lead.

Also, you should be able to detect lead via mundane means as well. Depending on whether or how it's hidden, you could test for it with a magnet, by submerging it in water, with a scratch test, by measuring it's melting point, by the presence of lead poisoning, etc. Knowledge (architecture and engineering) finally gets a use!

Il_Vec
2010-06-15, 09:10 AM
Knowledge (architecture and engineering) finally gets a use!

I'd say that's Apraise, actually. Sorry Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), try again.

Another_Poet
2010-06-15, 09:25 AM
Let's look at the actual rules. Lead does not block divination generally. Divination spells tend to be either Detect effects, or Scrying effects. Lead does block Scrying effects generally:


Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#divination)

So just don't make your Detect Lead spell a scrying effect. Which, if it is like the other Detect spells, it wouldn't be anyway. Non-scrying divination effects are not univerally blocked by lead, but individual spell descriptions often contain this clause:


The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectmagic.htm)

Even if you write that clause into your new homebrew spell - which you are not obligated to do, but which may effect the spell's level - you can still detect lead. You just can't detect it if it is behind those listed barriers. If a piece of lead is behind another piece of lead, you only detect the surface lead and not the second piece behind it.

In this way a detect spell is somewhat similar to normal vision. Normal human vision is blocked by a piece of cardboard, but cardboard is not invisible to us. We can see a piece of cardboard placed in front of of us. We just can't tell if there is another, smaller piece of cardboard tucked behind it or not - not with vision alone, assuming a straight-on view.

The Detect line of spells is similar. If a sheet of lead is enchanted with magic, you can see the aura on the lead with Detect Magic - as long as you don't hide it behind a second sheet of lead. If an animated, awakened sheet of lead is evil you can tell that with Detect Evil - as long as it hasn't cleverly put another sheet of lead over itself.

Those are the rules people. Select spells, not all divination spells, are blocked by lead and in some cases other things. Lead is not invisible to them, it simply blocks effective "line of sight" with the Detect spell beyond the lead.

And I should add too that beyond the rules there is common sense. It's not hard to look at the detect spells and see what happened there. See-through-anything detect spells are overpowered for their level so it was ruled that sufficient material could block the effect. They based it on density. A sheet of gold should block the effect as well as lead, it's just more expensive. It's not that lead has any special power nor does anything in the rules say it does. Gygax or someone with a similar sense of humor just thought it would be fun to treat it like X-Ray vision, and X-rays are blocked by dense material making lead shielding a cheap, effective way of blocking it.