My Problem as a DM

[Primehunter74]

Alright, I've never been a DM before, I've been a player for a while and figure heck, why not. I play D&D at a club at school (woo, steriotypical nerd) and this coming school year I plan to DM. I'm not using a published adventure though, as my imagination will not stand for such laziness, so I'm writing one. I have most of it planned out, I know NPC's and have a few cranked out already, there's just one problem...

I started writing up the first little dungeon crawl to start off the adventure. My problem is that I put too much into it. I had stuff written down for what happens if one of the PC's were to shoot the ropes holding up the chandeleres above them, or what would happen if they started cutting peices of the stained glass on the wall (as it was too big to move all at once) in a room that they will be in for about ten seconds!

I keep planning for too much and I think that my mind is telling me that if I try to improv all will fail (despite that I'm not too bad at improv). I don't know, is that a bad thing? Is it sometimes good to prepare too much? I feel like I need to be prepared for everything... and if i keep doing that I wont be able to finish it by the end of the summer.

What do you guys think?

[Aeromyre]

Alright, I've never been a DM before, I've been a player for a while and figure heck, why not. I play D&D at a club at school (woo, steriotypical nerd) and this coming school year I plan to DM. I'm not using a published adventure though, as my imagination will not stand for such laziness, so I'm writing one. I have most of it planned out, I know NPC's and have a few cranked out already, there's just one problem...

I started writing up the first little dungeon crawl to start off the adventure. My problem is that I put too much into it. I had stuff written down for what happens if one of the PC's were to shoot the ropes holding up the chandeleres above them, or what would happen if they started cutting peices of the stained glass on the wall (as it was too big to move all at once) in a room that they will be in for about ten seconds!

I keep planning for too much and I think that my mind is telling me that if I try to improv all will fail (despite that I'm not too bad at improv). I don't know, is that a bad thing? Is it sometimes good to prepare too much? I feel like I need to be prepared for everything... and if i keep doing that I wont be able to finish it by the end of the summer.

What do you guys think?

Better to think of every single possibility of what could happen, rather than be like "oh...uh ... ugh you...youfallintothepitandtake3d20dmg" "WHAT! I just took a step on the river rock!"

[Mystic Muse]

Don't prepare too much. Down that path lies the railroader!

You really should be good at improv if you're a DM. My players actually like dungeons that are completely improvised than anything prepared I do.

[Noedig]

As a player in a group of veterans I can say that we very often do something that the DM, who is damned good, does not anticipate, and he does his best to work it in to the story and not railroad. So being able to improv well will be a great help to you, because no matter how much you plan you cannot account for every single choice a player can make when a given situation is presented.

[Primehunter74]

I don't mean to railroad them. I'm not doing it in that way. I just dont want to have them go "I shoot the chandelere with a flaming arrow, and then shoot the rope so it falls on the goblins" and I'm unprepared. I'm in a group were the people do the most wierd and random things every 5 seconds, literally, so I feel I have to be ready.

Also, I think I'm writing this in a way that someone could pick this up and use it, and they would know how I would DM and do it like me. This is stupid since I wont really be giving this to anyone and thats just a stupid thing to do anyway.

[KillianHawkeye]

There's nothing wrong with preparation, but you can't possibly prepare for everything. Improvisation is a necessary skill when you're the DM. Seriously, you MUST be able to improvise, because no matter how much you prepare your players will still do something unexpected eventually.

If you're having trouble focusing, I suggest forcing yourself to detail the important stuff first (NPCs, monsters, treasure, traps, puzzles, major architectural concerns, etc.). Once the main parts of the adventure are ready, you can start coming up with contingencies and alternative methods to resolve the adventure, then do the same for specific encounters. After that, if you still have time that you're willing to spend on it, you can really get down to the tiny little details.

Trust me, though, when I say that the little stuff is way easier to improvise than the big stuff (especially for a first time DM).

[Aeromyre]

There's nothing wrong with preparation, but you can't possibly prepare for everything. Improvisation is a necessary skill when you're the DM. Seriously, you MUST be able to improvise, because no matter how much you prepare your players will still do something unexpected eventually.

If you're having trouble focusing, I suggest forcing yourself to detail the important stuff first (NPCs, monsters, treasure, traps, puzzles, major architectural concerns, etc.). Once the main parts of the adventure are ready, you can start coming up with contingencies and alternative methods to resolve the adventure, then do the same for specific encounters. After that, if you still have time that you're willing to spend on it, you can really get down to the tiny little details.

Trust me, though, when I say that the little stuff is way easier to improvise than the big stuff (especially for a first time DM).

We do Agree! :D

[KillianHawkeye]

We do Agree! :D

See? I'm not all bad! :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Aeromyre]

See? I'm not all bad! :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Nah i didn't think you were :smallwink:

[Giggling Ghast]

There's nothing wrong with preparation, but you can't possibly prepare for everything. Improvisation is a necessary skill when you're the DM. Seriously, you MUST be able to improvise, because no matter how much you prepare your players will still do something unexpected eventually.

Absolutely. No matter how much you prepare, the PCs will throw you a curveball.

Take your chandelier example. To prepare for everything the PCs might ask of you, not only will you have to account for the chandelier falling on monsters, you have to anticipate the PCs jumping on the chandelier and then waiting there until it falls, so you better figure out how much weight it will hold. Then you better figure out how much the chandelier is worth, because maybe they'll want to haul it out there. Or maybe the PCs will think it's funny to take down the chandelier and then throw it at the monster, so you better figure out what kind of a skill check they'll need to carry it and what damage it will do if thrown. Also, one of your PCs might decide he hates chandeliers, so he wants to smash it with a hammer — better figure out how much damage it could take. (Maybe an animated chandelier ate his father, a detail he forgot to mention in his character's history.) And then they might animate the chandelier, which will keep you up all night writing notes about what an animated chandelier might do in X situation.

In 4E, there's actually a table in the basic DMG that helps you deal with unanticipated actions like the PCs wanting to jump up on a table. Figure out a system like that.

[KillianHawkeye]

I find that if I'm writing notes like "If the PCs do X then the NPCs do Y," I'm over-preparing.

That's only over-preparing when "doing X" is something really non-obvious. Dropping a chandelier on someone is a pretty obvious trick and it's a good idea to have some idea of what the effect is. (Personally, I'd assign 1d6 damage plus 1d6 for every 10 feet it falls, Reflex DC 10 for half damage, for example. But that's just off the top of my head, and for something that simple I can make that ruling at the table without having to plan it out beforehand.)

[Primehunter74]

One thing I think I love, is a description. I have a description written down for almost everything. I could improv these, but I feel that they wouldn't be as good.

Thats also one thing that I think led me to overdoing "what happens" situations, one of the players will hear me say something about that object and will go "I'm gonna fireball it" or "Run! Evil chair!" or something like that, and I'll have to be ready.

Overall, I see my problem and i think doing this and asking about it has helped me see what I need to do. I think I wont be overdoing it now, and a few things will soon be added to my list of ideas (that "evil chair" thing sounded pretty good).

Oh, and the chandeleres are in an empty 20 by 30 room, with the enemies too far away (in another room) to even be hit by it, which is why I'm annoyed I did a x and y thing about it.

[graeylin]

prepare a little chart for yourself..

good idea: works on a roll of 1 on a 1d4
weird idea: works on a roll of 1 on a d10
really whacky idea: works on a 1 on a d100
only in your dreams idea: works on a 1 in a d1000


then, when they say "i will bounce my arrow off the mirror, and hit the potion bottle in the villian's hand", just roll your die and say "wow, it worked' or "nope, the arrow missed the perfect angle, sorry."

no matter what they come up with, you just have to decide the quality of the idea, and not all the dynamics.

[elonin]

If you plan for every eventuality then the characters will come up with something else entirely. If nothing else they will drive a herd of cattle through your dungeon.

[Primehunter74]

Actually, I would have him simply make an attack roll on the bottle, taking a penelty for the reflection in the mirror being slightly off (lets say it has a few cracks), the lighting not being as good, and the fact that his hand is moving a little. WOO! sudden improv.

[KillianHawkeye]

Oh, and the chandeleres are in an empty 20 by 30 room, with the enemies too far away (in another room) to even be hit by it, which is why I'm annoyed I did a x and y thing about it.

I have a solution for you: put some more chandeliers in another room. Or keep your notes for the next adventure that chandeliers might appear in. There, it wasn't a waste of time after all.

One question, though. What is the purpose of chandeliers in an otherwise empty room? Does this room have a purpose? Are the chandeliers merely part of the decor or are they just weirdly present and out of place? Chandeliers in a formal dining room is one thing, but chandeliers in a completely empty room is something else. (Okay, that was actually three questions.)

[RandomNPC]

do what i've done recently, it works wonders, and is only mild railroading. (any plot can be accused, but to what degree?)

The players are in a town looking for artifacts, they're about halfway through the plot, and are begining to find other people with artifacts, who generally put up a fight or try to trick the party into a time waster goose chase.

first, someone comes at the party, or the party is hired to stop a random badguy, and they get a minor inteligent item that has some small request that it trades information for. info leads into a series of similar items that form a set. when you combine the set you get better results than each peice by itself, so when they get the first item it pushes them to find more. BBEG only needs so many (half?) for his plot, and the party learns this when more than enough are unacounted for, so they need to hunt them down. they can go anywhere looking for clues, and if you're good at improv, you can give them clues just about anywhere for being inventive enough.

I don't even know what's going on in my next session, and they've got 5 of 13 items. Improv for the win.

[Giggling Ghast]

You can try sticking to common sense stuff, but I find that PCs rarely demonstrate anything resembling common sense. :smalltongue:

[Primehunter74]

The entry hall is more of a... worship room... I guess you could call it. It's the tomb of some dwarf hero who defeated some great evil and blah blah blah. People come to pay their respects at the doors to the tomb, and the chandeliers provide light so they dont smack their face on the large stone doors.

Well, thank you all for your help, I'm going to cast a sleep spell on myself, someone wake me in about 3 days, or sooner if I am needed to make pie for my humble subjects.

[Tar Palantir]

Don't plan for bizarre actions that might be taken in the dungeon; plan for bizarre actions that might be taken by your players. You've played with them before, and if you go over it well you'll probably notice patterns in the off-the-wall actions they take. Do short write-ups on how some of the more basic ones would work, and keep track of all the ones that they do that you haven't planned for. Keep these little quick-guides handy, so that you can use them in the future, or adapt them to similar situations (okay, they want to light the chandelier on fire, shoot out the rope, and drop it on the enemies. The chandelier's not really flammable, but alchemist's fire would stick well enough [I'll jot that down for later]. Entangled in something on fire is 1d6 fire damage per round, and a Str check to break free, DC 15 seems about right. They shot that rope bridge a few sessions ago, let me check how I ruled that...). This keeps things internally consistent (which helps your players make further ludicrous plans while being able to judge their chances for success reasonably well), and gives you a nice shorthand for adjudication. Don't try to anticipate how your players will react, except in fairly straight-forward ways. There may be two or three reasonably likely courses of action, and you can and should plan for those, but there are millions of off-the-wall shenanigans they could try, and they'll always try the one you never saw coming, so don't even try.

[valadil]

I had that problem when I started out too. I overplanned. As you mature as a GM you'll learn what needs to be planned in advance and what doesn't. And it'll probably be different from every other GM out there.

When I started I mapped everything. And not just little doodles, but full scale artwork. It was a complete waste of time. It didn't matter if I spent 4 hours on a map. I'd be lucky if the players looked at it for more than a minute. Furthermore, all my dungeon maps were useless too. I mean, traps and rooms were alright. But the tunnels connecting them were done arbitrarily. Why not just decide on how the tunnels work at game time? And yet other GMs find mapping to be really useful to their games.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'm one of them. Evey time I game my playes always as first for a map to look at. This is becuse I map alot and I map well. Groups always have thier own dynamic. Look at your players and what they have gotten away with in the past.

DM's for me have had to, on the fly, come up with a climb DC for getting over a panicking donkey in a closed space (survivial bag), getting a donkey droped on you from a roof (survival bag), the effects of a paniking donkey in a small boat (survival bag), useing a donkey for cover in combat (survival bag).

Leason, never give a survival bag to someone who thinks to much, there are so many uses for donkeys.

[Balain]

In my experience from both sides, you need to plan well. Don't make yourself crazy with planning though. No matter how much you plan players always do something you weren't expecting.
Just last time we played I didn't want to railroad the players into something, but I wanted to hint at other possible solutions. So they get to the tower entrance. I was figuring with the amount of creatures guarding the entrance they would go looking for another way in.

Nope they didn't. They came up with some plan that actually worked well and they made it in through the front door. They took a lot of damage, and now they have no idea how to open the rest of the doors. Well no it's obvious they need different sized blocks to open the doors in different configurations. They just have no blocks, since they didn't go the long way.

Another time when I was playing, the DM had this plan that we would be hired to find out what was going on in this house, or some such thing. Been way to long to remember the exact details now. We were level 1 - 4 and were suppose to sneak around and find out these 5 NPC were big time criminals, selling slaves or something. They were all much higher level. The idea was we should sneak around find some proof and turn it in. We are sneak as best we can. hear some people talking so be burst through the door to surprise them. Well we were kind of surprised when the level 19 or so wizard killed us all with one spell LOL


I have a solution for you: put some more chandeliers in another room. Or keep your notes for the next adventure that chandeliers might appear in. There, it wasn't a waste of time after all.

One question, though. What is the purpose of chandeliers in an otherwise empty room? Does this room have a purpose? Are the chandeliers merely part of the decor or are they just weirdly present and out of place? Chandeliers in a formal dining room is one thing, but chandeliers in a completely empty room is something else. (Okay, that was actually three questions.)

Just a side note. It's always fun to place out of the ordinary items in dungeons that have no actual purpose in there. The players always think it's there for some reason and spend time trying to figure out what that reason is. Just don't do it too often or they get bored of it.

[tiercel]

Some improv is, as has been mentioned, a necessary skill for the DM. Basically you want to try and stick to the things you know will happen -- how will you set up the story? how will major encounters begin? what will major NPCs/foes expect to happen and how will they react to expected scenarios?

Especially with regard to the last, if (okay, *when*) the PCs do something you don't expect, it's not only okay but good for you and your guys to be surprised. Let your players grab the initiative every once in a while (not just the d20 die roll, I mean the overall impetus of the story) when they do something unexpectedly clever; it's not like your bad guys can really expect *everything*.

If you are gonna overprepare, do it either for (1) NPCs/foes that are *supposed* to be geniuses and shouldn't be easily caught off guard at all or (2) BBEGs, just for the dramatic value -- a BBEG fight that ends in one round because "oops I guess I didn't think about that" usually isn't the outcome you are looking for. (Not that the occasional bit of luck and/or brilliance should be prohibited, of course, but if your BBEGs are getting tipped over like unadvanced kobolds if they ever entered straight-up melee, then more overpreparedness is called for.)

[Irreverent Fool]

In 4E, there's actually a table in the basic DMG that helps you deal with unanticipated actions like the PCs wanting to jump up on a table. Figure out a system like that.

In AD&D we had ability checks and we liked them! Swing from a chandelier? Dexterity check! DC? What's a DC? Roll lower than your Dex on a d20. Push a statue over? Strength check! Seduce the tavern wench? Charisma check!

I approve of planning lots of stuff out, but if you plan to continue as a DM, you can't rely on it. For one thing, you won't have nearly as much time to prepare between sessions as you do for the first one.

I would move from your focus on the one dungeon to your overarching plot, important locations in the world, other dungeons, etc. You've got your initial "specific" down. Move out to the "general". If you have a chance, talk about your campaign world with some of your potential players as well. RP out some interactions as if their favorite characters were in the world. Come up with background and the details should follow.

[Grogmir]

sounds like you are over planning a little -

I like to put in stuff in my world and combat areas to - but I rarely stat all of them out - (unless something that only enemies will use) - instead I rely on that great bit of DM kit -

PAGE 42!

Seriously - gives you all the information you need to improvise actions and keep them semi consistant.

[Delta]

If nothing else they will drive a herd of cattle through your dungeon.

We once drove a herd of cattle right through rush hour traffic in downtown Seattle in a Shadowrun adventure, perfect diversion :smallbiggrin:

[prufock]

I make "plan trees" - if option A, X happens; if option B, Y happens; etc. Sometimes there are limited options, other times it's more open-ended. Improvisation is necessary when the players take an unanticipated branch, or in an open-ended section.

There's no need to plan for what happens if they swing from a chandelier or break a window, unless those are "dungeon features" that are nonstandard. Swinging from a chandelier in the dungeon should be no different than swinging from it in your living room, unless it's a trap or something. Don't plan for the standard things.

[KillianHawkeye]

In AD&D we had ability checks and we liked them! Swing from a chandelier? Dexterity check! DC? What's a DC? Roll lower than your Dex on a d20. Push a statue over? Strength check! Seduce the tavern wench? Charisma check!

That's a fine system when you never have an ability score higher than 20, but nowadays it just wouldn't work. 25 Int? Never fail an Int check, I guess. You see why they had to change it.

[Steveotep]

To improvise well takes preparation. Rather than plot every possible action in a room, plan for things that will come up some time, like a PC falling from a great height. Trust me, one will do it eventually whether it involves a cliff, pit trap, dragon or just a hole in the ground. You could just let them hit the ground but the falling rules are brutal and going splat is not an interesting way to die. Instead a giant spider has built a web just there and the PC lands in it. It's not a free lunch as they now have a big bug drooling on them and there is no treasure (you don't want to reward stupidity), but it is better than instant death.

Other useful preps include: They attack the king (or other major authority figure) instead of going on his quest. Unless the king is a powerless puppet, his guards should be competent otherwise someone else would already have killed him. They do accept surrender instead of killing everyone, and now the quest does not pay as well. Mark of Justice is always fun in such cases.

They try to steal from a merchant instead of trading with him. Give him guards, traps and locks appropriate to his stock value. If they get away with it, fine. Next time they are there he has gone out of business and they have no-one to sell junk to. If they get caught, proceed to guards and MoJ as above.

They get overwhelmed by monsters. Instead of killing the PCs, the monsters sell them into slavery as gladiators. It's a classic fantasy trope.

Inroduce a rival (but not enemy) group of adventurers as friendly competition for the party. For a DM they are useful for several reasons: they show there are other adventurers around, they can rescue a party which gets in over their heads (and claim half the treasure) and they might get to a prize first if the PCs dither.

[Galthromir]

Remember, as everyone has been saying, No plan survives contact with the players.

I personally just create characters and setting. I know what each character's personality is, so I can easily figure out how they would react to anything PC's might do. I do also prep plot and such to some degree, but never more than a session ahead. General long term plot is ok too (more "What characters would do if left undisturbed than actual plot").