New SW:tOR trailer is extremely sexy.

[AstralFire]

I am now exactly 300% as interested as I was before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBGvAJ6-SsY). And I was already pretty interested. :D

[nosignal]

Force Hadoken! Or whatever it is that Chun-Li uses.

[Ogremindes]

Yet another reason not to use a double-bladed lightsabre.

[AstralFire]

Force Hadoken! Or whatever it is that Chun-Li uses.

Kikoken, IIRC.

[Raistlin1040]

I swear, I was really excited about this game, but if it REALLY is going to be 4 classes per side, and they're basically mirrors, and there are no races other than Human, I am going to be very disappointed. I was looking forward to playing a Sith Twi'lek.

Lightsaber combat looks cool. I hope it ends up that nice in the game, as opposed to just being "I hit you, you hit back." Nice Force Kamehameha as well.

[AlterForm]

I swear, I was really excited about this game, but if it REALLY is going to be 4 classes per side, and they're basically mirrors, and there are no races other than Human, I am going to be very disappointed. I was looking forward to playing a Sith Twi'lek.


I seem to remember a blog post somewhere confirming non-Human races, Twi'lek almost certainly among them.

[Mando Knight]

I liked the unarmed saber block... and the badassery of the Trooper. Almost wish he could have taken down that Sith by himself... the game would get boring really quickly if all the PvP matches ended up Force vs Force because the other classes just can't compete.

[Domochevsky]

Hot damn! :o

[Tavar]

Nice cinematic, though I'm going to wait for actual gameplay to start making judgement on actually getting it, just like any other game.

[AlterForm]

Nice cinematic, though I'm going to wait for actual gameplay to start making judgement on actually getting it, just like any other game.

There's supposed to be floor demos available at E3 this year. SQEEEEEEEE

[AstralFire]

I swear, I was really excited about this game, but if it REALLY is going to be 4 classes per side, and they're basically mirrors, and there are no races other than Human, I am going to be very disappointed. I was looking forward to playing a Sith Twi'lek.

Lightsaber combat looks cool. I hope it ends up that nice in the game, as opposed to just being "I hit you, you hit back." Nice Force Kamehameha as well.

Lightsaber combat in the game is mostly deflecting and parrying, as seen from game screenshots. The classes are twisted reflections rather than pure mirrors, and frankly, I'm fine with fewer classes that can be customized and tweaked more precisely.


I liked the unarmed saber block... and the badassery of the Trooper. Almost wish he could have taken down that Sith by himself... the game would get boring really quickly if all the PvP matches ended up Force vs Force because the other classes just can't compete.

I'm sure they're not going to do that. The Sith was one of the stronger Sith Lords, while that trooper and his crew were steamrolling a lot of the others.

I'm definitely gonna be Republic - Troopers, Jedi and Smugglers on the same side, hotdamn! All I'm missing is being a flying Bounty Hunter.

[Zevox]

My post about it from the E3 thread:


*watches The Old Republic trailer on Angry Joe's site (http://angryjoeshow.com/2010/06/swtor-e3-2010-trailer-joe/)*

...damn it, Bioware, stop making me want to try an MMO :smallmad: . Why couldn't you have just made this KotOR 3?
Yeah, still almost certainly not actually going to get it though.

Zevox

[Raistlin1040]

I seem to remember a blog post somewhere confirming non-Human races, Twi'lek almost certainly among them.
I hope so. My friends are I are going to play on two RP servers, one per side, and shift the classes around a bit. I really want to be a Twi'lek Sith Inquisitor and a Tradoshan Jedi Knight.

Or Iridonian Jedi Knight.

[AstralFire]

They've confirmed non-human races, just not what. Twi'lek are almost certainly among them, though I've never understood the appeal.

[Geno9999]

Yet another reason not to use a double-bladed lightsabre.

Bah, the only reason why the jedi's lightsaber broke because it's built different than Darth Maul's. Maul's was really just two lightsabers stuck together just so this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Also, I want one.:smalltongue:

[Ogremindes]

Also, the Sith guy should've totally been shot in the face while his lightsabre was locked with the Jedi's

[nosignal]

Well, this Gamespot report (http://e3.gamespot.com/story/6265070/star-wars-the-old-republic-exclusive-hands-on-bounty-hunter-trooper-imperial-agent-smuggler-sith-inquisitor-and-sith-warrior?tag=top_stories%3Btitle%3B1) reveals the Rattataki, Chiss and Twi'lek as playable races.

[Raistlin1040]

They've confirmed non-human races, just not what. Twi'lek are almost certainly among them, though I've never understood the appeal.
Tentacle heads. Also because they look cool.

Could I get a link to this confirmation? Because I've not seen anything like it on the Wikipedia page, or any trailer I've seen.

[Worira]

Yeah, it was pretty clear that in game terms, the Jedi and Mr. Badass were mid-level, the Sith was higher-level, and pretty much everyone else were chumps, with the Republic being slightly less chumply.

Also he charged a Sith with a knife. A regular combat knife. And still almost won.

However, regardless of how awesome that trailer was, it still doesn't really prove anything at all about how good the game will be. Until someone's actually played the game, I'm remaining a healthy blend of skeptical and hopeful.

[Ogremindes]

However, regardless of how awesome that trailer was, it still doesn't really prove anything at all about how good the game will be.

It does prove some level of respect for the setting, which helps.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, it was pretty clear that in game terms, the Jedi and Mr. Badass were mid-level, the Sith was higher-level, and pretty much everyone else were chumps, with the Republic being slightly less chumply.

Also he charged a Sith with a knife. A regular combat knife. And still almost won.

However, regardless of how awesome that trailer was, it still doesn't really prove anything at all about how good the game will be. Until someone's actually played the game, I'm remaining a healthy blend of skeptical and hopeful.

People have been playing the game. :V Most of the information so far has been gameplay videos and we've got that gamespot report too, so I've been pretty excited about the gameplay. I'm not ashamed to admit though, that that trailer got me more stoked than I've been in a while (probably the biggest things to excite me when I first began following the game were the realization of removal of autoattack and the hefty use of the Z-axis in fighting.)

[Geno9999]

Yeah, it was pretty clear that in game terms, the Jedi and Mr. Badass were mid-level, the Sith was higher-level, and pretty much everyone else were chumps, with the Republic being slightly less chumply.

Also he charged a Sith with a knife. A regular combat knife. And still almost won.

However, regardless of how awesome that trailer was, it still doesn't really prove anything at all about how good the game will be. Until someone's actually played the game, I'm remaining a healthy blend of skeptical and hopeful.
And it seems that they both took a grenade TO THE FACE. Probably low powered, but still, it left them flying and scars on their faces.

[Arcanoi]

Also, the Sith guy should've totally been shot in the face while his lightsabre was locked with the Jedi's

They're obviously Locked Out Of The Fight. You can't shoot into a lightsaber duel, that would be madness! Sheer madness! Cinematic integrity must be preserved even in the face of realistic or sensible concerns!

I was sort of expecting the fight to end with that grenade. It would have been cooler, honestly. BECAUSE HE'S HOLDING A THERMAL DETONATOR! (Cut to post-mortem monologue)

[MCerberus]

My brain cannot contain such *explode*

[AstralFire]

They're obviously Locked Out Of The Fight. You can't shoot into a lightsaber duel, that would be madness! Sheer madness! Cinematic integrity must be preserved even in the face of realistic or sensible concerns!

I was sort of expecting the fight to end with that grenade. It would have been cooler, honestly. BECAUSE HE'S HOLDING A THERMAL DETONATOR! (Cut to post-mortem monologue)

I agree there, honestly. I was expecting a heroic sacrifice with a thermal detonator. But these are their class iconics, so I doubt Darth Malgus died there either.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All right. Before everything starts, I have to say I was impressed at the CGI quality. Also, at some level, this video appeals to something deep within me, and I might find myself trying the first MMORPG in YEARS because of it.

Well, now that this is out of my system:

1) Okay. Why are the Republic Trooper armors look like Stormtroopers' that much? Last time we checked the Old Republic, the Sith used these kind of cheesy armors.
2) Initially, I really liked the soldiers. They looked badass, and they were cutting down some ennemy Sith. Which is GREAT. Except, you know, the part where they ALL DIE. Oh well, darn it. Jedi > Everything frakking else.
3) What kind of tactics is that? Charging in the open while you are ambushing? That's the best way of getting yourself killed.
4) Oh. Hey. a Jedi. The Jedi that saves everyone, because we can't do frak without them. Luckily for everyone, there'll be at least 40% of the population that will be Jedi in that game. Ain't it great?
5) Really cool Force power demonstration. It's great to see finally some Force Powers outside of Choke, Lighting, etc...
...
So I guess what Yoda said about "Using the Force only for Defence and Knowledge, never for learning" is all bogus? Clearly, Yoda should have thrown a few of those Force Hadoken at the ennemy.
6) What kind of lame-ass grenade is that? At point blank, there ain't even a scratch! What's the point of a grenade that doesn't do frak at point-blank?
7) Oh god. Oh god. Sci-Fi writers REALLY have no sense of scale. You think that a few flares are going to be seen from orbit? They really think that a planet is about 200 square KM, eh?

Again, the concept looks good.. darn it.

[AstralFire]

1) Okay. Why are the Republic Trooper armors look like Stormtroopers' that much? Last time we checked the Old Republic, the Sith used these kind of cheesy armors.

It's been a while since, if the armor's useful, I don't know why they'd keep it.


2) Initially, I really liked the soldiers. They looked badass, and they were cutting down some ennemy Sith. Which is GREAT. Except, you know, the part where they ALL DIE. Oh well, darn it. Jedi > Everything frakking else.

The first trailer was a bunch of Jedi getting cheesed by bounty hunters and Sith, so. It's the mook effect.


4) Oh. Hey. a Jedi. The Jedi that saves everyone, because we can't do frak without them. Luckily for everyone, there'll be at least 40% of the population that will be Jedi in that game. Ain't it great?

I think you're really making too much out of this, considering the troopers were holding their own fairly nicely. She saves the Trooper Iconic, not everyone.


5) Really cool Force power demonstration. It's great to see finally some Force Powers outside of Choke, Lighting, etc...
...
So I guess what Yoda said about "Using the Force only for Defence and Knowledge, never for learning" is all bogus? Clearly, Yoda should have thrown a few of those Force Hadoken at the ennemy.

This one I agree with, but I'm not surprised it happened.

[deuxhero]

I'll wait to see if it is actually good, or if it's like the Bioware games I've played before getting hyped about it.

[NEO|Phyte]

Also he charged a Sith with a knife. A regular combat knife. And still almost won.

Technically he charged bare-handed, he drew the knife halfway through the force lightning.

[Matar]

I'm going to be the grumpy old man here and mention how much I'm going to hate this, no matter how hard they try.

Because, you know, MMO.

Although, for as bad as the game will be I will gladly admit that the cut-scene was flippin badass. I was totally rooting for the trooper the entire time >_>.

"What? You're a Sith Lord? ****ING BODY SLAM, BITCH!"

[Moofaa]

Just saw the trailer. It looked good (cant wait to see it in HD). One thing I don't like about the animation is that at times it look stiff or jerky, especially when the jump and land on the ground or get thrown into something.

Events in the trailer of course make no sense, seeing flares from space, charging saber-wielding enemies, etc. Typical hollywood directing.

There should be some actual gameplay footage/reviews in the next couple days as they are supposed to have it playable on the showroom floor. I am actually excited about this MMO the more I hear about it. Seems like they are making a real effort to differentiate themselves from the EQ/WoW/OtherMMO formula without doing some radical departure.

Also I was reading an article somewhere that claimed they announced each player will captain their own starship and be able to fully customize its looks. I don't remember the source and I didn't get to finish reading it, perhaps someone else can confirm? I'm at work and all the gaming sites are blocked.

[Milskidasith]

No gameplay footage makes this very fun to watch, but not enough to change my interest in the game.

[nooblade]

Bah, more NPCs, more (likely unskippable) cutscenes.

Turn them all into glue or something.

[Leon]

The item i read on a website last night about a a play through at e3 mentioned Chiss and Rattataki in addition to the Twi'lek as races

[KnightDisciple]

I stated this on another site, but I'm of the firm belief the Jedi chick was a distant ancestor of the Halcyon Family (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Halcyon_family), but with better TK overall.

I mean, she didn't just "block" that lightsaber. She absorbed that blade.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Very cool video, and boy was that soldier a badass. I'm hoping for some actual gameplay soon.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I'm going to be the grumpy old man here and mention how much I'm going to hate this, no matter how hard they try.

Because, you know, MMO.

Although, for as bad as the game will be I will gladly admit that the cut-scene was flippin badass. I was totally rooting for the trooper the entire time >_>.

"What? You're a Sith Lord? ****ING BODY SLAM, BITCH!"

Yeah, I'm in exactly this boat.

Why with the gosh-darn MMO? Why Bioware? :smallfrown:

[Tome]

This would be an instant 'get' for me, where it not for the MMO part. Is it too much to hope for a decent offline mode? Probably. As it is, I still might get it.

[Squark]

Bioware has at least claimed that a lot of the game will be playable as single-player, I believe. Frankly, I kind of suspect they went with the MMO to allow them to do other classes, since a KOTOR 3 would have been Jedi/Sith, because, you know, Knights of the Old Republic. Also, they've claimed each class will have an approximately 200 hours worth of game play story. Make of that what you will.

Also, an MMO gives them an excuse to cram as much content as they have- They've already got as many planets as KOTOR 1 and 2 put together, and the game still has nearly a year left in development. (Alright, maybe about the same. 13 Planets, and KOTOR 1 & 2 each had about 6-7 major planets. It's been a while since I played)

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think I'd play as a Heavy Weapon guy.

Let's see how the Jedi can stand against 3000 blaster shots/minutes.

[Dienekes]

This would be an instant 'get' for me, where it not for the MMO part. Is it too much to hope for a decent offline mode? Probably. As it is, I still might get it.

They've claimed that you can still get a fulfilling experience playing alone, said nothing about offline though.

Really, this game looks great. I've seen some gameplay vids and they've done fine, and even for multiplayer seems to focus on smaller groups that can roleplay together. No way I'm paying per month for a game, though.

Still, can't help but imagine how fun it would be hunting down jedi as Darth Dienekes, oh well. That's what Saga Editions for.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Can someone remembers me what are the 4 classes on each side, and their intended purposes?

For all I can think, Jedi are gonna be the tanks.

[Squark]

Republic Classes

Soldier- You just saw One
Jedi Knight- Lightsaber based Combatant
Jedi Consular- More Forced based Combatant
Smuggler- The Han Solo.

Imperial Classes

Bounty Hunter- Boba Fett, basically.
Imperial Agent- This guy doesn't actually have a clear parallel within the films. Basically, he's a shadowy assassin/Spy for the Sith Empire.
Sith Warrior- More Lightsaber based combatant
Sith Inquisitor- Either Darth Maul or Darth Sidious, depending on which path you take.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Sith Warrior- More Lightsaber based combatant
Sith Inquisitor- Either Darth Maul or Darth Sidious, depending on which path you take.

wait. If there is a "Lighstaber based combattant" in the Sith side during the movies, it's gonna be Darth Maul.

so..

Sith Warrior - Darth Maul
Sith Inquisitor - Darth Sidious?

[Tome]

Can someone remembers me what are the 4 classes on each side, and their intended purposes?

For all I can think, Jedi are gonna be the tanks.

Trooper/Bounty Hunter - Beefy ranged class.
Smuggler/Imperial Agent - Support class, weak defence but can hdie behind cover.
Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior - Beefy melee characters.
Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor - Force specialists, somewhat weak in melee but very powerful.

Play experience of six of the classes. (http://e3.gamespot.com/story/6265070/star-wars-the-old-republic-exclusive-hands-on-bounty-hunter-trooper-imperial-agent-smuggler-sith-inquisitor-and-sith-warrior?tag=top_stories%3Btitle%3B1)

Official website. (http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes)

[Squark]

wait. If there is a "Lighstaber based combattant" in the Sith side during the movies, it's gonna be Darth Maul.

so..

Sith Warrior - Darth Maul
Sith Inquisitor - Darth Sidious?

No. It's complicated, but the Sith warrior is for the Darth Vader Experience, and the two different paths of the Sith inquisitor give you either a Force-based manipulator like Darth Sidious, or an agile Warrior with a double bladed lightsaber like Darth Maul.

Each class will apparently have two different advanced classes, with different paths to go down. Currently, the only revealed Advanced Classes are for the Sith Warrior- The Juggernaut is a more tank-based class with some resolve-draining attacks, while the Marauder is a dual-wielding lightsaber monster.

If you're still confused, go visit the game's very nice (IMHO) database. (http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet)

[SolkaTruesilver]

No. It's complicated, but the Sith warrior is for the Darth Vader Experience, and the two different paths of the Sith inquisitor give you either a Force-based manipulator like Darth Sidious, or an agile Warrior with a double bladed lightsaber like Darth Maul.

Each class will apparently have two different advanced classes, with different paths to go down. Currently, the only revealed Advanced Classes are for the Sith Warrior- The Juggernaut is a more tank-based class with some resolve-draining attacks, while the Marauder is a dual-wielding lightsaber monster.

If you're still confused, go visit the game's very nice (IMHO) database. (http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet)

Bounty Hunter for me! :smallbiggrin:

I always liked the concept of "Mundane Warrior with useful perks". You should have seen my Orc Herbalist Warrior back in my WoW days. Being a PotionMaster had much advantages :smallwink:

In that case. Grenades. Jetpacks. Machineblasters. I hope there is a lot of possibility for me in the matter.

[Squark]

I'm probably going to play bounty hunter and smuggler first as well, the former because I'm not to proud to admit I'm a Fandalorion, and the latter because I love playing the wisecracking hero.

[Eloi]

Yes it was very sexy. Did you see those glowing lightsabers and hooded robes? Wow, man, wow Can't believe you linked that NSFW link on the site though, hope the mods don't crack down on you for that.

Anyway, I'm excited for this game. Not that way. That way either. *tilts head* Whoa, I didn't know that way existed.

Old Republic games have been consistent in their quality I do believe. One of my favorite American RPGs, I think its American, was Bioware in the U.K.? Well if it is's one of my favorite U.K.ite games.

[Tome]

If I do end up playing this, I'm probably going to go Jedi Consular for the Force powers. Though there is the temptation to be a badass normal and play as a Trooper.

[kamikasei]

I'm kind of meh about this game. As an MMO, cinematic trailers can't do that much to excite me. And for all that it looks cool, I can't quite get past the fact that they've added (IIRC - maybe it already existed in the lore) another "whoops, the Sith kicked the Jedi's asses and established an Empire, it must be Thursday" period.

Still, I'll keep an eye out and give the game a trial run once it's released.

Bah, more NPCs, more (likely unskippable) cutscenes.
...What?

[AstralFire]

I'm kind of meh about this game. As an MMO, cinematic trailers can't do that much to excite me. And for all that it looks cool, I can't quite get past the fact that they've added (IIRC - maybe it already existed in the lore) another "whoops, the Sith kicked the Jedi's asses and established an Empire, it must be Thursday" period.

Yeah, I hate that too. But while post-OT book era is my favorite part of Star Wars, I must admit it is not too suitable for MMOing. Very few force users, most of which aren't Jedi or Jedi-derived, and only one playable 'side.' (Not a fan of faction gameplay, but that seems to be here to stay for the purposes of group PvP. Which I do like, so.)

[Calemyr]

So they're actually doing this. Ah, well. There's a lot of cool things they could do with it by using the Old Republic setting from their Knights games...

Warning: Several bits of speculation with no supporting evidence follows.
I have to wonder if this isn't effectively KotOR 3, or perhaps KotOR 2.5. Remember, the second Knights game claimed that an unknown enemy (the "true Sith") are beginning to notice the cute little Jedi civil war that spawned from their philosophies. Both games (at least the way Knights 2 put it) ultimately constructed champions to destroy it, champions who weren't completely bound to either light or dark philosphies.

So now imagine it. Revan and the Exile have gone on their mad little quests into enemy territory. Or not, as the case may be. Either way, neither the light nor the dark Jedi are as decimated as they seemed. And the fighting doesn't stop. This seems to be a classic WoW scenario: two sides that fight each other at the drop of a hat are faced with a superior foe that intends to destroy both sides with equal fervor. The factions are not able to overcome their enmity to form an alliance, but they are able to agree to a limited truce that they'd rather kill the invaders first, then each other when its more convenient.

That could be the "core" storyline (you know, the main plot missions and major end-game and mid-game quests, bosses, and "dungeons"). Outside of this war, you have a galaxy that has been worn to the point of breaking by constant civil war betweeen the Jedi factions. On the Republic side, the wars have destroyed the economy and things are getting increasingly desperate and more and more people are turning to "adventuring" to make a living... and possibly even a difference. While dealing with their local issues, these adventurers stumble from time to time on events related to the subtle three-sided war, until they are so experienced and jaded that they take part in their own right. On the dark Jedi side, the demise of the last three "Sith lords" has resulted in a power vacuum and now is the time for all good acolytes of the dark side to harness their ambition and take the power they desire. Meanwhile, the third faction, the true Sith, are waiting in the shadows, playing the other sides against each other using indirect methods similar to their instigation of the Mandalorian War, and it ultimately falls to heroes spawned from the light and the dark to do battle with the void.

I don't suggest this is the way it is, but I can see a setup like this as showing the war that the series predicted on a scale a single-player game couldn't adequately portray, and if an idiot such as I can see a way I have to believe people who actually do this stuff for a living could see it as well. Possible a third KotOR game could be constructed later, using NPCs from the MMO, to write the grand finale to the story that began with a child in whom the Force raged like the heart of a sun. They could even set it up so they could import player characters from this MMO to serve as the hero of a third Knights game.

Just some possibilities to consider.

[Zevox]

Also, they've claimed each class will have an approximately 200 hours worth of game play story. Make of that what you will.
I truly and sincerely doubt that, considering they only tend to hit 40-50 hours (for the first time through) with their big RPGs like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Unless the story is a whole bunch of drawn-out, very shallow storylines - which I guess would be what I'd expect from an MMO, granted - I can't see them legitimately hitting 200 hours worth of story with one game, much less a different 200 hours for each of eight classes.


One of my favorite American RPGs, I think its American, was Bioware in the U.K.? Well if it is's one of my favorite U.K.ite games.
Neither, actually. Bioware is based in Canada.

Zevox

[AlterForm]

Also I was reading an article somewhere that claimed they announced each player will captain their own starship and be able to fully customize its looks. I don't remember the source and I didn't get to finish reading it, perhaps someone else can confirm? I'm at work and all the gaming sites are blocked.

Not sure about customizing it (though I wouldn't doubt it with Bioware), but at the start of their presentation they mentioned every playing getting a starship because it was an "iconic" part of the Star Wars universe or something to that effect.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Neither, actually. Bioware is based in Canada.

Zevox

I knew there had to be a reason for their incredibly thought-out and intelligent gameplay/storyline writing.

Canada, we got Oil, Water, Uranium and Bioware :smallcool:

[Pronounceable]

I say bull****. I am calling bull**** on that saber grab and no amount of forcebabble will convince me otherwise. Forcedouken is acceptable tho.

That said; the moment I heard KM Richardson speaking, I knew whoever it was was gonna rock. He promptly did so.

...
And now for something completely different: Real jedi use single sabers.

[AstralFire]

I say bull****. I am calling bull**** on that saber grab and no amount of forcebabble will convince me otherwise. Forcedouken is acceptable tho.

That said; the moment I heard KM Richardson speaking, I knew whoever it was was gonna rock. He promptly did so.

...
And now for something completely different: Real jedi use single sabers.

I also accept one saber and an off-hand shoto saber, otherwise I agree with the last statement.

Saber grab I'm ambivalent on. I don't think we've ever seen anything like that before. Very brief blocks, yes, but not sustained, direct contact.

[Eloi]

And now for something completely different: Real jedi use single sabers.

Yeah, well you know who else used single sabers? Darth Vader. So if you want to be Darth Vader, go ahead. My indisputable logic of linking something to an obviously evil figure has left you baffled, yes?

[Squark]

On the saber grab- While cheesy, it has been done before in the EU... Altough it is a very rare ability, most famously used by the Halycon line of Correlian Jedi (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Absorb_Energy)...


Although when Nejaa Halycon used it, he still got bisected, but the lightsaber actually shorted out from all the power he drained out of it. Mind you, he then proceeded to wipe the floor with the dark side adepts he was fighting before becoming one with the force.

As far ad dual lightsabers go, to be honest, I prefer the dueling hilt Count Dooku used- Something about just seemed awesome.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I also accept one saber and an off-hand shoto saber, otherwise I agree with the last statement.

Saber grab I'm ambivalent on. I don't think we've ever seen anything like that before. Very brief blocks, yes, but not sustained, direct contact.

And even then, that'd been my cue as Bounty Hunter to shoot her in the head.

Oh, and am I the only one who doesn't think of the Sith as "Evil for Evil's sake?". I'm tired of those stupid cliche. I'd rather have the Sith as a somewhat grim but strong "survivalist/egotistic" philosophy. Making them.. wait. They'd be like the Mandalorians, ultimately, no?

Darn. I still don't want them to be evil for the EVILZZZ

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yeah, well you know who else used single sabers? Darth Vader. So if you want to be Darth Vader, go ahead. My indisputable logic of linking something to an obviously evil figure has left you baffled, yes?

Did you just Forcewind'ed this threat? You are not better than the Imperials!

[Squark]

On the topic of non-card carrying villain Sith, the sith from the trailor, Darth Malgus, actually has some of the makings of a Worth Opponent- He dislikes the power games in the Sith Empire, and he isn't a racist bigot like some sith. (http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/biographies/darth-malgus)

Oh, and for the record, the Jedi from the trailer, unless I've misidentified her, went on to become the Grand Master who will appear in the game (http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/biographies/jedi-grand-master-satele-shan)- So she's sort of the Yoda of her day.

[Calemyr]

I don't think the dark Jedi are 100% evil. However, their philosophy is to draw power from emotion and ambition. Even the most benevolent dark Jedi would be unstable and dangerous. Self-control has no real foundation in their philosophy, though the most powerful ones tend to learn its value. When all of your elites, however, are ambitious, unstable powerhouses driven by passions more than anything, your faction quickly picks up an unpleasant reputation. The Jedi, however, are not really any better, they just take things to the opposite extreme.

Really, the Jedi factions remind me of the queens from the recent Tim Burton's Alice movie. The Red Queen is driven entirely by passions and emotions: jealousy, greed, paranoia, loneliness. She displays no controls on her emotions and so becomes an absolute sociopath with no understanding of other people's emotions. The White Queen on, on the other hand, has just as much of a dark side to her but lives in absolute terror of it and goes to great effort to reject it, focusing on everything but herself and hiding behind vows of nonviolence to keep from facing what she knows is there. Neither are well-balanced individuals, and I feel the same is the case with both Jedi factions.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I don't think the dark Jedi are 100% evil. However, their philosophy is to draw power from emotion and ambition. Even the most benevolent dark Jedi would be unstable and dangerous. Self-control has no real foundation in their philosophy, though the most powerful ones tend to learn its value. When all of your elites, however, are ambitious, unstable powerhouses driven by passions more than anything, your faction quickly picks up an unpleasant reputation. The Jedi, however, are not really any better, they just take things to the opposite extreme.

Really, the Jedi factions remind me of the queens from the recent Tim Burton's Alice movie. The Red Queen is driven entirely by passions and emotions: jealousy, greed, paranoia, loneliness. She displays no controls on her emotions and so becomes an absolute sociopath with no understanding of other people's emotions. The White Queen on, on the other hand, has just as much of a dark side to her but lives in absolute terror of it and goes to great effort to reject it, focusing on everything but herself and hiding behind vows of nonviolence to keep from facing what she knows is there. Neither are well-balanced individuals, and I feel the same is the case with both Jedi factions.

I like the way you are thinking.

I had once an idea about re-writing the whole Light Side/Dark Side of the Force mentality. It's not about Good Vs. Evil, it's about Control and Sensitivity Vs. Willpower and Emotion.

You may find some of my most articulated thoughts on the topic in that topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137799)




To begin, I don't like the whole "Dark Side is Evil" some of the video games are trying to make us swallow. So I decided to play the Force in a different aspect that still make sense in the cadre of most Sith and Jedi we are seeing around:

The Force is a power that you can Feel, and that you can Power around. When you Feel the Force, you can predict ennemy blastershots. You can see the future, you get insights about what to do. You know how to act to make someone act the way you want.

When you Power the Force around you, you can push things. You can stop blaster shots with your hand, you can throw lightnings. You can crush someone's mind with your sheer willpower.

But Feeling and Powering requires two completely different states of mind. Feeling needs a quasi-Buddah philosophy, where you have to be at peace. Powering needs to delve into your inner emotions and let them out, so the more you WANT something, the more it happens.

You can see how the two philosophy are directly contradictorian, and why it is so hard to master both. Also why the Power side seems to be more tempting. But there is something even more inscidious to the Force sensitives: the more they get attuned to using one philosophy of the Force, the more they easily fall into the mindset. It means that Feeling-users become more and more distant.. Recluse.. insentive to the rest of the Galaxy. It means that Power-users become like spoiled childs, doing what they want when they want, because WANTING something is the source of their power.

A Jedi is primarly a Feeler-disciple, but the Power side is crucially useful to him, at least to a minimum. Which is why the Jedi masters train their apprentice to use Power while they are in complete meditative state, to be able to project their willpower without falling to emotions.

The same for the Sith. Even if they have incredibly control over whatever around them, they still need a basic of Feeling, or they will be blind to what happens around them. It explains why so many still spend some time in meditation.

Okay. Now you know the philosophy I want to use for my Force powers. As you see, it doesn't make Jedi good guys, or Sith bad guys. It is just that, seeing the kind of philosophy the Powering side embrace, they are naturaly harder to fit in a society than Jedi. But a Sith could be a romantic passionate (Jedi are not allowed to feel love!!!)

So, ultimately, a society where your leaders are basically at the children level of self-control because they are powered by their whisms is basicaly a dangerous and unstable society. On the other hand, the Jedi will usually end up in passive contemplative state, letting the society around them fall unless it disturbs their Visions.

None are "bad". One is simply more prone to misbehaving. The other one is prone to never behaving at all.

Now, don't forget that the "Jedi" are a religion. It's an outlook on what the Force is, what it should be. Same thing for the Sith. Which is why they might have strange and biased wordings to express the Feeler/Power sides of the Force. In the case of the Jedi, they see the Power as the "Dark" and dangerous side. Might be right. But they are still biased.

I'd wonder how a non-Force user would think of the society under the Sith.

[Zevox]

Oh, and am I the only one who doesn't think of the Sith as "Evil for Evil's sake?". I'm tired of those stupid cliche. I'd rather have the Sith as a somewhat grim but strong "survivalist/egotistic" philosophy. Making them.. wait. They'd be like the Mandalorians, ultimately, no?
I've always preferred the explanation for the Force provided by Vergere in the New Jedi Order novels myself. There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side - the Force is one. The "Light Side" is what happens when the Force is accessed by a calm, peaceful mind - it is the lesser, more shallow power of the Force, but carries no risks to use. The "Dark Side" is what happens when the Force is accessed through passions and emotions - it is the deeper, more powerful aspect of the Force, but carries a risk, as those emotions become amplified when you do so, so accessing it with anger or hate or the like can turn you into, well, what most Sith are. With great self-control, or by accessing it with more positive emotions like love, one could theoretically wield the "Dark Side's" power without going "dark." In fact, briefly, a few Jedi in the novels did - including both Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade Skywalker.

...but it turns out that George Lucas didn't like the Force concept Vergere espoused, so the next couple of novel sets after the New Jedi Order series were spent refuting it and reestablishing the business-as-usual "Light vs Dark Side" dichotomy :smallsigh: .

Zevox

[Zen Monkey]

This game will be neither perfect nor horrible. Why?
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"....except for that sentence, that sentence is somehow ok, and not an absolute judgement. Hmm, so some Sith deal in some absolutes, sometimes, and some Star Wars games are better than others.

[Calemyr]

Odds are pretty good that non-Force users in a Sith-based society would more or less be hyper-capitalism: look out for yourself first, anything goes if you suceed, nothing is acceptable if it fails. Possibly reminiscent of the Objectivist social structure indicated in the Bioshock games: everybody looking to get a leg up, and then getting pissed off when they learn their abilities are insufficient to advance any further and are left cleaning pipes and mowing lawns when they feel they have been raised to believe they should only accept being at the top of the food chain.

The topic of the light, dark and gray Jedi has been something I've enjoyed theorizing on since KotOR2. Back then, I wrote a unifying summary of the two Knights games on the Lucas forums that was recieved faily positively. The key thing are that the dark Jedi are not the Sith. They are Jedi who rebelled and found the writings of another culture's (the true Sith's) teachings and embraced them. They call themselves Sith, but we have yet to see the true Sith in any medium that I've seen, though I tend to not bother with EU stuff.

[KnightDisciple]

Yeah. She totally absorbed the energy in that shot.

We've seen Vader casually deflect blaster bolts with his hand.

What's to say there's not someone who could pull this off? It obviously took concentration and effort, and it didn't actually short the blade out. It was only when Captain Awesome Trooper barged in that she got a break.

[loopy]

Okay, this is kind of a tangent, but I've always been confused as to why people don't switch to shotgun-equivalents for Jedi hunting weaponry. Semi-automatic combat shotgun, perhaps?

Especially once you start factoring in things like the force nullifying ysalimir (I really can't be bothered looking the spelling of that up right now) and the lightsaber resistant mineral that could be worked into armor... Would make for a ridiculously effective, though expensive, Jedi Killer.

I will give ysalimirs a pass though, seeing as they hadn't been discovered at that time.

[Kish]

Especially once you start factoring in things like the force nullifying ysalimir (I really can't be bothered looking the spelling of that up right now) and the lightsaber resistant mineral that could be worked into armor... Would make for a ridiculously effective, though expensive, Jedi Killer.
Cortosis in KotOR is a blatant "This exists so that lightsabers don't instantly destroy any weapon that crosses them" MacGuffin. Cortosis in the novels is supposed to be extremely brittle. Work it into your armor, and you're likely to have armor so heavy putting it on brings the strongest warrior to his/her knees, or armor which shatters as soon as a not-entirely-stupid Jedi produces a vibroblade and hits it with that, or both. The Emperor had it used in the walls of his palace, but you wouldn't actually bring it into combat.

[Zevox]

Cortosis in KotOR is a blatant "This exists so that lightsabers don't instantly destroy any weapon that crosses them" MacGuffin. Cortosis in the novels is supposed to be extremely brittle. Work it into your armor, and you're likely to have armor so heavy putting it on brings the strongest warrior to his/her knees, or armor which shatters as soon as a not-entirely-stupid Jedi produces a vibroblade and hits it with that, or both. The Emperor had it used in the walls of his palace, but you wouldn't actually bring it into combat.
Cortosis isn't the only lightsaber-resistant ore out there, though. Mandalorian Beskar, for instance, is another.

Zevox

[SolkaTruesilver]

Cortosis isn't the only lightsaber-resistant ore out there, though. Mandalorian Beskar, for instance, is another.

Zevox

And Cortosis wasn't "Lightsaber resistant". It was simply shorting out lightsabers, so it had to be re-activated again.

Meaning that a blade with some Cortosis would have de-activated any lightsaber blade, kept momentum, and cut any Jedi in half.

[KnightDisciple]

Okay, this is kind of a tangent, but I've always been confused as to why people don't switch to shotgun-equivalents for Jedi hunting weaponry. Semi-automatic combat shotgun, perhaps?

Especially once you start factoring in things like the force nullifying ysalimir (I really can't be bothered looking the spelling of that up right now) and the lightsaber resistant mineral that could be worked into armor... Would make for a ridiculously effective, though expensive, Jedi Killer.

I will give ysalimirs a pass though, seeing as they hadn't been discovered at that time.Well, "shotguns" would probably get similar treatment to the rockets in that video. That, or the Jedi might wear, you know, armor.

Which many of them have, at least in wartime.

The Ysalamir (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysalamir) were on 1 planet, so it's not like the grew everywhere. More than that, according to the article, Talon Karrde was the first person to figure out how to take them off of their trees without killing them. Which would kind of defeat the utility of having them.

And as others have said, typically you could only make armor resistant to lightsabers. More than that, the person has to be able to move. Which means weak points. So a Jedi with decent ability could at least survive, if not defeat the opponent.

[warty goblin]

Trailer: Relatively awesome. Bioware does do good cinematics, although the constant headscratching levels of stupid take something away from that. Staging an ambush in a forest while wearing red and white armor? Everybody with at least one functional eyeball should be aware that's braindead.

Game: Zero interest. The only Star Wars game I can say I honestly enjoyed was Republic Commando. Not coincidentally, this had very little to do with most of Star Wars' general themes. I also have no interest in MMOs, or indeed the Bioware Formula. The combination of all three creates a tiny myopic pit of apathy in the core of my being.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Trailer: Relatively awesome. Bioware does do good cinematics, although the constant headscratching levels of stupid take something away from that. Staging an ambush in a forest while wearing red and white armor? Everybody with at least one functional eyeball should be aware that's braindead.


Don't get me started on Hollywood Tactics. I already brushed that topic :smallfurious:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I just started up the trailer and heard the words "for centuries" and almost hit my head against my desk due to the clicheness.

[NEO|Phyte]

So, with this barehanded lightsaber block, I'm not exactly well-versed on EU, but to me, that looks more like she's forcing the energy back on itself, what with the sparky/melty look it was getting. What were these other absorb energy lightsaber events described as?

[Eloi]

So, with this barehanded lightsaber block, I'm not exactly well-versed on EU, but to me, that looks more like she's forcing the energy back on itself, what with the sparky/melty look it was getting. What were these other absorb energy lightsaber events described as?

Well if you want a good example of absorption you could watch Episode III. Pure canon, as much as some people don't want it to be.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well if you want a good example of absorption you could watch Episode III. Pure canon, as much as some people don't want it to be.

Could you please elaborate? I don't remember pure energy absorbtion outside of Force Lightning.

[NEO|Phyte]

Well if you want a good example of absorption you could watch Episode III. Pure canon, as much as some people don't want it to be.

Not absorption in general, specifically the use of it against a saber.

Unless there WAS a scene involving that, and I can't remember it.

[Eloi]

Could you please elaborate? I don't remember pure energy absorbtion outside of Force Lightning.

T'was referencing that instance, actually.

[AstralFire]

Absorbing Force effects is nothing new, Lightsaber absorption works on different mechanics.

[SolkaTruesilver]

T'was referencing that instance, actually.

Doesn't really count then. It's Force Power nullifying another Force Power.

And to be honest, Force Lightning is simply using the Force to create highly positive electric charge on your target and negative charge on you, while lowering the resistance of your body to allow the electricty to channel without damage. It's easily counterable by restoring the electrical balance.

A lightsaber, however... :smalleek:

[Eloi]

Doesn't really count then. It's Force Power nullifying another Force Power.

And to be honest, Force Lightning is simply using the Force to create highly positive electric charge on your target and negative charge on you, while lowering the resistance of your body to allow the electricty to channel without damage. It's easily counterable by restoring the electrical balance.

A lightsaber, however... :smalleek:

Actually a lightsaber is the same thing. Its a crystal being used to channel force energy, I think.

[Mando Knight]

Could you please elaborate? I don't remember pure energy absorbtion outside of Force Lightning.

Empire Strikes Back. Vader blocks Han's pistol shots with just the palm of his glove. Even though his glove is said to be one of the most badass gloves in the galaxy, I'm pretty sure he used the Force to absorb the blaster energy.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Actually a lightsaber is the same thing. Its a crystal being used to channel force energy, I think.

Is not. It's a crystal that focuses energy created from a power cell.

You don't have to be a Force user to use a lightsaber. I once had a very (stupid) argument with a (stupid) friend who kept insisting that's why only Jedi uses Lightsabers.

I shut him down with one good, Hardest Canon example.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Empire Strikes Back. Vader blocks Han's pistol shots with just the palm of his glove. Even though his glove is said to be one of the most badass gloves in the galaxy, I'm pretty sure he used the Force to absorb the blaster energy.

That's what I can get around. But then again, he's a SITH. He has some of the most powerful powers of the Galaxy (ex: Force-Chocking somebody light years away).

The girl was a Jedi.

[KnightDisciple]

So, with this barehanded lightsaber block, I'm not exactly well-versed on EU, but to me, that looks more like she's forcing the energy back on itself, what with the sparky/melty look it was getting. What were these other absorb energy lightsaber events described as?

It's call Force Absorb (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Absorb_Energy).

As I've said before, the Jedi in question seemed to use a talent similar to the Halcyon line wherein she absorbed the blade's energy, and used that to supercharge her TK abilities.

[Tavar]

This is in the EU novels, but Luke also blocks blasters with his hands. Also, Corran Horn is noted to come from a line of Jedi who specialize in absorbing energy.

[Dienekes]

I've always preferred the explanation for the Force provided by Vergere in the New Jedi Order novels myself. There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side - the Force is one. The "Light Side" is what happens when the Force is accessed by a calm, peaceful mind - it is the lesser, more shallow power of the Force, but carries no risks to use. The "Dark Side" is what happens when the Force is accessed through passions and emotions - it is the deeper, more powerful aspect of the Force, but carries a risk, as those emotions become amplified when you do so, so accessing it with anger or hate or the like can turn you into, well, what most Sith are. With great self-control, or by accessing it with more positive emotions like love, one could theoretically wield the "Dark Side's" power without going "dark." In fact, briefly, a few Jedi in the novels did - including both Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade Skywalker.

While an interesting concept it more or less goes against the movie canon itself with Yoda's claim that dark is not stronger than light.

And would be harder (not impossible, mind, but harder) to reconcile why the stronger side doesn't take over the galaxy more often. Now my SW canon is shaky at best, but I thought the idea was that the Sith make numerous bids for power, and get very close to absolute control several times. But Palpatine was the one who up and conquers the thing, and even that was mostly through deception and horribly tangled plotting than actual power.

[KnightDisciple]

This is in the EU novels, but Luke also blocks blasters with his hands. Also, Corran Horn is noted to come from a line of Jedi who specialize in absorbing energy.That'd be the Halcyons I mentioned. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

While an interesting concept it more or less goes against the movie canon itself with Yoda's claim that dark is not stronger than light.
Which is completely fine by me. Yoda shouldn't be taken as all-knowing and infallible. That his knowledge in this regard was a product of generations of Jedi simply being mistaken about the nature of the Force, just as the Sith are, is a completely acceptable explanation by me.


And would be harder (not impossible, mind, but harder) to reconcile why the stronger side doesn't take over the galaxy more often. Now my SW canon is shaky at best, but I thought the idea was that the Sith make numerous bids for power, and get very close to absolute control several times. But Palpatine was the one who up and conquers the thing, and even that was mostly through deception and horribly tangled plotting than actual power.
Because of what its use does to the Sith, amplifying their anger, hate, & etc to make them pure monsters. Especially with the infighting this causes - the big reason Palpatine was able to succeed was the genius of the Rule of Two branch of the Sith, which overcame that infighting by reducing the Sith to two, a master and an apprentice, and making it explicit that the apprentice should one day usurp the master to become the master himself. The group operated through subtle manipulation over the course of a millennium in order to achieve its goals in spite of its numbers while that setup enabled each generation to slowly grow more powerful personally, since lesser apprentices could not defeat their masters.

Zevox

[Driderman]

Well it certainly is a nice video. Shame it isn't actual game footage as this tell us nothing other than that Bioware have a skilled graphics team.

Is that Sarevok doing narration?

[Dienekes]

Which is completely fine by me. Yoda shouldn't be taken as all-knowing and infallible. That his knowledge in this regard was a product of generations of Jedi simply being mistaken about the nature of the Force, just as the Sith are, is a completely acceptable explanation by me.

I can agree and disagree with this statement. I'm fine with the Jedi being mistaken about the Force, I'm fine with Yoda being wrong on individual topics. This was even shown in the new trilogy, of course by could be wrong it was instead just given an idiot ball. And incorrect about the Force was tacked on with becoming one with the Force and going all ghosty.

However, my problem would be with the implications that I think go past one of the central themes of SW. Claiming that the dark side is stronger seems to imply that unbridled emotion is superior in some regards to contemplation, forethought, and self control. This seems to be telling one of the central themes of the universe to go shove it. While in another context I would think this could be a rather interesting theme for another fantasy/sci fi series I can't reconcile it with my understanding of SW.


Because of what its use does to the Sith, amplifying their anger, hate, & etc to make them pure monsters. Especially with the infighting this causes - the big reason Palpatine was able to succeed was the genius of the Rule of Two branch of the Sith, which overcame that infighting by reducing the Sith to two, a master and an apprentice, and making it explicit that the apprentice should one day usurp the master to become the master himself. The group operated through subtle manipulation over the course of a millennium in order to achieve its goals in spite of its numbers while that setup enabled each generation to slowly grow more powerful personally, since lesser apprentices could not defeat their masters.

Thus why I said not impossible. Though it's worth noting that Palpatine himself showed that you don't have to actually defeat their masters to usurp them. Meaning this process is hardly an evolutionary process as it would first seem.

[Zevox]

However, my problem would be with the implications that I think go past one of the central themes of SW. Claiming that the dark side is stronger seems to imply that unbridled emotion is superior in some regards to contemplation, forethought, and self control. This seems to be telling one of the central themes of the universe to go shove it. While in another context I would think this could be a rather interesting theme for another fantasy/sci fi series I can't reconcile it with my understanding of SW.
Considering the rather black & white dichotomy that "central theme of SW" creates with the Jedi and Sith, I am again completely fine with that. Besides, the drawback to the use of the deeper "Dark Side" Force powers means that while they may have more raw power at their disposal, they're hardly unquestionably superior to the shallower but more responsible use of the "Light Side" in that interpretation either.


Thus why I said not impossible. Though it's worth noting that Palpatine himself showed that you don't have to actually defeat their masters to usurp them. Meaning this process is hardly an evolutionary process as it would first seem.
True, but it at least began as that. Darth Bane, the one who founded the Rule of Two branch of the Sith, actually attempted to find a way to live effectively forever because he feared his apprentice, Darth Zannah, may be waiting until age made him frail to confront him, thereby showing she had failed to learn the lessons he had taught - that she was to confront him when they were both at the pinnacle of their power, so that whoever was greater would continue as the master of the Sith, to take on a new apprentice. Zannah had learned this, however, as their final confrontation showed, so that teaching did not die with him. I guess it was lost somewhere along the way, though, with Palpatine killing Plagueis in his sleep.

Zevox

[Tavar]

Considering the rather black & white dichotomy that "central theme of SW" creates with the Jedi and Sith, I am again completely fine with that. Besides, the drawback to the use of the deeper "Dark Side" Force powers means that while they may have more raw power at their disposal, they're hardly unquestionably superior to the shallower but more responsible use of the "Light Side" in that interpretation either.


Actually, in the EU this seems pretty prevalent. I mean, look at how many Uber Dark Side techniques there are, and how it can achieve much greater effects. The real problems are that it drains the body's strength and one's mental sanity.

[Dienekes]

Considering the rather black & white dichotomy that "central theme of SW" creates with the Jedi and Sith, I am again completely fine with that.

You see, I have no problem with black/white moral stories. If you take them as what they are, simple stories that are meant to entertain and be epic (assuming that's what they're going for, really I'm describing Star Wars here). I don't think LotR would be improved by describing both sides as gray entities out to expand their boarders. It just wouldn't be LotR anymore, same thing, for me anyway, with Star Wars.

Sure you can subvert the heck out of this as well, as has been done to LotR more times than I can count (though I recommend The Sundering by Jacqueline Carey as a quick little read if you're interested). And many are great in their own right, but they are not fundamentally the same as the original black/white stories they drew inspiration from. So as I said earlier, what you outline I think would be incredibly interesting in it's own setting. However, they step too far away from what Star Wars is, for me anyway.

[Zevox]

You see, I have no problem with black/white moral stories. If you take them as what they are, simple stories that are meant to entertain and be epic (assuming that's what they're going for, really I'm describing Star Wars here). I don't think LotR would be improved by describing both sides as gray entities out to expand their boarders. It just wouldn't be LotR anymore, same thing, for me anyway, with Star Wars.
I agree about LotR, but personally, I don't think that the black & white works so well in Star Wars. It wasn't until I read Vergere's explanation of the Force that I really realized it, but personally, I think there's a lot more potential for great storytelling with the Star Wars universe and concepts like the Force, the Jedi, and the Sith when it's not in black & white. I mean, the whole basis of the Jedi and Sith's respective philosophies are already in things which aren't so black and white themselves - Jedi calm, contemplation, distancing themselves from attachment or emotion, and focus on the collective good vs Sith embrace of passions, ambition, and individualism. Where LotR is based in Tolkien's version of epic fantasy, with clear-cut good and evil stemming from original good and evil gods, Star Wars is a sci-fi/fantasy amalgam with concepts that simply don't work as well, for me at least, when cast in pure black and white, and have potential beyond that.

So yeah, I'll take Vergere's explanation of the Force over the canon Star Wars stuff, personally.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

Perhaps you are correct. You definitely seem to have a firmer grasp on Star Wars canon than I do, having not read Vergere for one. Just so I get a grasp on what I do think is an interesting theory, which book is it in and is said book worth the read? I'm generally rather wary on Star Wars EU in terms of quality.

[warty goblin]

Well it certainly is a nice video. Shame it isn't actual game footage as this tell us nothing other than that Bioware have a skilled graphics team.

Is that Sarevok doing narration?

They did release a combat video a while ago, and the game footage filled me with much boredom. Probably because my brain is wired in such a way that watching different avatars activate abilities on cooldown timers says 'gamey in a bad way' and not 'fun, fast paced and tactically deep.' Your mileage probably differs.

Beyond that, I object to lightsabers hitting dudes and not removing limbs. We have the technology to do this, every being in the cosmos agrees that lightsabers just ghosting through guys looks deeply stupid, and canonically that is just not what they do.

[Zevox]

Perhaps you are correct. You definitely seem to have a firmer grasp on Star Wars canon than I do, having not read Vergere for one. Just so I get a grasp on what I do think is an interesting theory, which book is it in and is said book worth the read? I'm generally rather wary on Star Wars EU in terms of quality.
Vergere was a part of the mammoth New Jedi Order series, which spanned around 20 books, covering a four-year war between an extragalactic alien race called the Yuuzhan Vong and, well, basically the entire galaxy, and that particular aspect was introduced late in the series. I couldn't recall which book off the top of my head, but looking through Wookiepedia, it was Traitor, the thirteenth book of the series. I actually haven't read the books since High School, so I'm probably not in a position to say whether they were quality works overall - I liked most everything I read back then. Of course, since it was such a huge event and had many authors working on the different books in it, the quality probably varies from book to book anyway.

What I can do, though, is find where she explained this idea of the Force, and post excerpts of it. Here:
Background: Basically, Vergere is on Coruscant with Jacen Solo, one of Han and Leia's kids, who is about 19. The planet is occupied by the alien invaders and they're trying to keep away from them. Narratively, Vergere is playing the role of an unorthodox teacher for Jacen. They discover a nexus of dark side energy beneath the old Jedi Temple, which Jacen taps into to help in a desperate fight. This is where Vergere explains the nature of the Force, according to her view, to him, when he wants desperately to get away from this dark side nexus, horrified at what he did by tapping into it. There's more going on, but it would take entirely too long to explain, and this should let you get the gist of it. It's a several-page long conversation, with a lot of denial of Vergere's words (both verbal and mental) by Jacen, so I'll just excerpt the relevant quotes from Vergere.
-----------------------------------------------------
"No. What you feel is the Force." Slowly, painfully, she lifted herself onto her elbows, and she met his blankly astonished stare. "This is the shameful secret of the Jedi: There is no dark side."

[...]

"The Force is one, Jacen Solo. The Force is everything, and everything is the Force. I've told you already; the Force does not take sides. The Force does not even have sides."

[...]

"Light and dark are no more than nomeclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion... but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness - true greatness of any kind - requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."

[...]

"If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."
-----------------------------------------------------
I believe there was some elaboration on it in less dramatic scenes later as well, but I cannot recall what book or books that may have been in, and I doubt Wookiepedia will help me there, since they weren't as narratively important as when Vergere first taught Jacen this.

Personally, I think the second of those quotes was particularly brilliant. The Force is supposed to be a part of everything - "It binds the universe together" I believe was Yoda's line. So how can that which unifies all be itself split in twain? Answer: it cannot. Works particularly well at tying this view of the Force to the concept as explained even in the original movies I think, and makes a whole lot of sense.

Incidentally, part of how they rebuked Vergere's view and restored the light/dark canon was to later have a Sith named Lumiya claim that Vergere herself was a Sith (which does not really fit with the rest of her portrayal in the NJO series, but you can see how it might fit with her teachings here if you assume she was trying to corrupt Jacen), and then have Jacen fall to the dark side and become a Sith Lord himself. Not quite a retcon since it can't be confirmed that Lumiya was telling the truth rather than lying to corrupt Jacen by taking advantage of his respect for Vergere, but suffice to say that it provides an ample explanation for her for those that would rather use the normal Light/Dark dichotomy model of the Force.
Zevox

[king.com]

Is that Sarevok doing narration?

That is totally sarevok, and this just makes it more awesome.

[Eldan]

Huh. I'm torn.

I dislike MMOs. I think Star Wars is boring. And yet, this game seems interesting.

Strange.

[Eloi]

Huh. I'm torn.

I dislike MMOs. I think Star Wars is boring. And yet, this game seems interesting.

Strange.

Its an MMO? I thought it was cRPG like the other Old Republic games....

[Ogremindes]

Its an MMO? I thought it was cRPG like the other Old Republic games....

In theory, it's both.

[SmartAlec]

5) Really cool Force power demonstration. It's great to see finally some Force Powers outside of Choke, Lighting, etc...
...
So I guess what Yoda said about "Using the Force only for Defence and Knowledge, never for learning" is all bogus? Clearly, Yoda should have thrown a few of those Force Hadoken at the ennemy.

Heh. He did; or close to it, if you'll recall him force-pushing the Emperor across a room.

In any case, 'defence' is a pretty broad term; considering the galaxy is suffering a religious war as well as a mundane one, then Jedi using the Force to deal with hostile Sith probably comes under the heading of self-defence.


So yeah, I'll take Vergere's explanation of the Force over the canon Star Wars stuff, personally.

The canon Star Wars stuff is, as you'd expect, a little muddled. The whole idea of 'The Light Side' and a light/dark good/evil dichotomy comes from the expanded universe, which to my mind got it a bit wrong. There's no mention of a 'Light Side' in the movies; only the Force (the natural, serene state of the Force), and the Dark Side (the discordant Force, caused by drawing on the Force with extreme emotion). And, of course, the Jedi aren't always out-and-out good guys, because good and evil to them are entirely secondary to their maintenance of external and internal harmony. Likewise, the Sith aren't all about evil - just about shaking things up, upsetting the natural order and rising to the top.

Funnily enough, whereas you're taking the view that Yoda might be wrong, I tend to believe that the reason the whole 'Light Side' thing sprang up is because while the old Jedi had 25,000 years to figure things out, Luke and co. are starting from scratch and have to figure it all out again. So, naturally, they're going to get some of it wrong.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

After watching the video again, I'm feeling a compulsion to create a Soldier with a choice selection of team-say macros (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-GO1Ygkeqs)

[Kish]

In theory, it's both.
Slight amendment: In theory, every MMORPG is both, hence the actual complete abbreviation.

[SolkaTruesilver]

However, my problem would be with the implications that I think go past one of the central themes of SW. Claiming that the dark side is stronger seems to imply that unbridled emotion is superior in some regards to contemplation, forethought, and self control. This seems to be telling one of the central themes of the universe to go shove it. While in another context I would think this could be a rather interesting theme for another fantasy/sci fi series I can't reconcile it with my understanding of SW.


But forget that "Dark is Stronger". (can we step away from Light/Dark dichotomy? I'd rather use Power/Insight dichotomy). Power is easier. Power is more seductive. Power is quicker.

They are both technically as strong as each other, but with Power, you can influence the universe with what you want. So it feels stronger, as you are immediately rewarded.

While the Insight gives you a good outlook on the universe. It tells you what is, what was, what will be. You become one with the Force.

Which is the strongest? Tell me, which between the Diviner and the Evoker is the strongest? There aren't any "Stronger side", there are only "Stronger Force User". In the end, these are tools that will define your personality, but you still have to act intelligentely with these tools.

And as for the argument: "Look at the number of Forbidden Uber-Dark Side techniques there are", well.. the thing is, the Insight is pretty limited in term of things you can directly do with it. You can react in incredibly way, and see the future and anticipate. But there is a limit to that philosophy.

a Power Side user of the Force is only limited by his imagination and his skills about how he can influence the universe.

Again, it's all about appearance. The Power side looks stronger. It feels stronger. But ultimately, it's not the Side of the Force that wins the battle, it's the User.

[Athaniar]

This trailer is pure Rule of Cool. I approve. Give me the game now!


In the case of the Imperial agent, we played as a member of the Chiss race
This game has Chiss. GIVE!

[Dienekes]

Thank you Zevox, and while I really don't think I have the time or the stamina to go through a 20 book slug at the moment, I may try and peruse a few of them and see how I like it.

[Calemyr]

One theory that appeals to me is the one Kreia espouses in KotOR 2: that the Force is alive, that it is aware, and that it is an absolute bastard. The way Kreia describes it, it's almost like the Force gets a kick from (or feeds off of) conflict between the factions, which is why it always seems to abandon a side just as it's about to win.

Seriously. The Force seems to take its cues from the Inverse Ninja Law - when the Jedi had the dark side pounded flat before the beginning of Phantom Menace? The few Sith that remain enjoy incredible power. The Sith crush the Jedi like bugs? A farm boy with only the most rudimentary training can kick their asses.

Which makes Kreia's role in the game a great deal more sensible. Her war isn't against the Jedi (light or dark), but with the "will" of the Force, which toys with both sides to maintain a constant bloody conflict that could last an eternity.

[DranWork]

FOR SAREVOK!!!! wait.. hes on the good side now? THATS IMPOSSIABLE!! *weep*

Love the trailers for this game, but as always Biowear make great trailers. Will be waiting to see full ingame shots to make my judgement. If its a point and click adventure like most mmo's then I think ill pass.

[Dienekes]

Love the trailers for this game, but as always Biowear make great trailers.

Dragon Age would like to have a word with you.

[Tavar]

Seriously. The Force seems to take its cues from the Inverse Ninja Law - when the Jedi had the dark side pounded flat before the beginning of Phantom Menace? The few Sith that remain enjoy incredible power. The Sith crush the Jedi like bugs? A farm boy with only the most rudimentary training can kick their asses.


I don't know. I've always viewed as self-fufilling prophecies. I mean, one day a Jedi had a vision that one of their order who had a spouse would destroy the Order. So they made a rule that no one could have such relationships. And so on and so forth. The problem is that they got so restrictive that their abilities suffered, and then they couldn't adapt when new situations came up.

[DranWork]

Dragon Age would like to have a word with you.

haha true, but then I never botherd to look much into dragon age after the first few game play trailers... blood splatter ahoy!

[MCerberus]

After watching the video again, I'm feeling a compulsion to create a Soldier with a choice selection of team-say macros (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-GO1Ygkeqs)

You can be a tank trooper. I'll be a dps trooper exclaiming "if the force had wanted you to live IT WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED ME". Of course we'll let the annoying smuggler die for exclaiming the need for a dispenser at the current location... constantly


I see fun times.

[Jahkaivah]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

I'm calling hax.

[Tavar]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

I'm calling hax.

We already discussed this. There is a force absorb power, in canon it's simply difficult to use(outside of a few bloodlines). Same thing Vader did to Han in Empire Strikes Back.

What really bugs me is, what was bringing down the tree for? Doesn't seem to serve any purpose.

[Zevox]

when the Jedi had the dark side pounded flat before the beginning of Phantom Menace?
Actually, they didn't. About a thousand years before that Darth Bane had destroyed the last major Sith effort to conquer the galaxy, viewing the rest of the Sith Order at the time as weak fools who would only doom themselves even on the off chance that they could conquer the galaxy, and established the Rule of Two branch of the Sith, where there would be only one master and one apprentice, in order to correct the problem of self-destructive infighting that had always plagued the Sith. Under his plan that branch of the Sith remained in hiding all that time, manipulating events until they could eventually achieve their goal despite their small numbers, and that finally came to fruition with Palpatine. The Jedi thought the Sith extinct after the end of the Order that Bane purged, but they were wrong.

...pretty badly wrong, in fact, since recent novels have revealed no less than two more Sith Orders which have been in isolation/hiding since before Bane's time, too. But that's mostly just the fact that the writers always seem to resort to the Sith for villains in the EU, with only a few notable exceptions like Thrawn or the Yuuzhan Vong, so we get contrived means to keep the Sith around even after the last of the Rule of Two branch are gone.


I mean, one day a Jedi had a vision that one of their order who had a spouse would destroy the Order. So they made a rule that no one could have such relationships.
They did? I mean, I know I've avoided most of the pre-Empire EU (Bioware games and Darth Bane novels aside) because most of what I read of it seemed to be pretty stupid, but that... ow. That would just be a very bad, painful explanation for that rule. The Jedi were supposed to have philosophical reasons for wanting their members not to have such attachments last I heard, which makes for a good deal better story and background than "they had a vision that a married Jedi would destroy them."

Zevox

[DranWork]

Bringing down the tree was because all Light side uses hate Nature. Its a well hidden secret that they want to destroy all nature in the universe so they can set up more Yoga dens for meditation.


Or could have been because she was being overwhelmed and needed a distraction and couldnt have just force pushed the big boy as that would be to easy and needed to show off her power some more :smallwink:

[Worira]

"I'm being overwhelmed! I know, I'll divert my attention away from my enemy and exert a tremendous amount of energy on a tree over there! Maybe it'll fall sort of near us!"

[Anteros]

"I'm being overwhelmed! I know, I'll divert my attention away from my enemy and exert a tremendous amount of energy on a tree over there! Maybe it'll fall sort of near us!"

Really, on the scale of force user's powers uprooting a tree is pretty small time.

[king.com]

Really, on the scale of force user's powers uprooting a tree is pretty small time.

It wasnt even uprooting it was just weakening one side ofthe tree so it collapsed.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

You can be a tank trooper. I'll be a dps trooper exclaiming "if the force had wanted you to live IT WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED ME". Of course we'll let the annoying smuggler die for exclaiming the need for a dispenser at the current location... constantly


I see fun times.

And so the guild Team Forcetress was born.

[SolkaTruesilver]

They did? I mean, I know I've avoided most of the pre-Empire EU (Bioware games and Darth Bane novels aside) because most of what I read of it seemed to be pretty stupid, but that... ow. That would just be a very bad, painful explanation for that rule. The Jedi were supposed to have philosophical reasons for wanting their members not to have such attachments last I heard, which makes for a good deal better story and background than "they had a vision that a married Jedi would destroy them."

Zevox

If it makes you feel better, I think the proper explanation is that the Jedi always have had warnings against strong feeling, as it leads to being destructive, and lead to their own self-destruction. Thu, they started isolating themselves from it, until they become rigid and uncaring, and one of theirs who don't know how to deal with emotions kill them all.

The founders of the next generation of Jedi remembers that "strong emotions leads to the massacre", and warns against it. With time, the tale becomes a legend. The legend becomes a myth, and...

It has happened before, it will happen again.

Seeing as KOTOR-era, the "Now" era, and the Legacy era all seems to have roughly the same kind of pattern of Jedi/Sith war. With tales of Jedi having been completely exterminated every once in a while, but recovered. With tales of Sith having been wiped out, but recovered... I am wondering exactly if that isn't the way the Force wants it.

The Force doesn't want either side to become overly set in their ways for too long. It wants either of them to be healthily destroyed every once in a while, in order to be reborn stronger and with new ideas. But whatever happens to the triumphant side, in a few generations, a new order will arise to challenge them, and the cycle will restart all over again. The Force doesn't want "balance". It wants a pendulum, going back and forth, like a beating heart.

It has happened before, it will happen again.

[warty goblin]

Seeing as KOTOR-era, the "Now" era, and the Legacy era all seems to have roughly the same kind of pattern of Jedi/Sith war. With tales of Jedi having been completely exterminated every once in a while, but recovered. With tales of Sith having been wiped out, but recovered... I am wondering exactly if that isn't the way the Force wants it.

The Force doesn't want either side to become overly set in their ways for too long. It wants either of them to be healthily destroyed every once in a while, in order to be reborn stronger and with new ideas. But whatever happens to the triumphant side, in a few generations, a new order will arise to challenge them, and the cycle will restart all over again. The Force doesn't want "balance". It wants a pendulum, going back and forth, like a beating heart.

It has happened before, it will happen again.
No, that's what the people who make money selling Star Wars books want, so they can keep making money selling Star Wars books. It's pretty clear from the movies that what the Force wants is the destruction of the Sith, because that's the story George Lucas wanted to tell, and he made the whole thing up in the first place.

[Lord of Rapture]

If it makes you feel better, I think the proper explanation is that the Jedi always have had warnings against strong feeling, as it leads to being destructive, and lead to their own self-destruction. Thu, they started isolating themselves from it, until they become rigid and uncaring, and one of theirs who don't know how to deal with emotions kill them all.

The founders of the next generation of Jedi remembers that "strong emotions leads to the massacre", and warns against it. With time, the tale becomes a legend. The legend becomes a myth, and...

It has happened before, it will happen again.

Seeing as KOTOR-era, the "Now" era, and the Legacy era all seems to have roughly the same kind of pattern of Jedi/Sith war. With tales of Jedi having been completely exterminated every once in a while, but recovered. With tales of Sith having been wiped out, but recovered... I am wondering exactly if that isn't the way the Force wants it.

The Force doesn't want either side to become overly set in their ways for too long. It wants either of them to be healthily destroyed every once in a while, in order to be reborn stronger and with new ideas. But whatever happens to the triumphant side, in a few generations, a new order will arise to challenge them, and the cycle will restart all over again. The Force doesn't want "balance". It wants a pendulum, going back and forth, like a beating heart.

It has happened before, it will happen again.

So why don't they just keep that explanation? Why resort to a hamfisted prophecy that a married Jedi would be the one who would doom them all to explain why they prevented Jedi from having feelings. It makes the failings of the Jedi less about the inherent faults of having a rigid, inflexible moral code, and more about a stupid Deus Ex Machina.

Furthermore, it's an explanation that doesn't even make sense in context. According to Wookiepedia, Ki-Adi-Mundi was married and had seven daughters. And he was on the Jedi Council. So even the logic behind the explanation gets blown to pieces.

[SolkaTruesilver]

No, that's what the people who make money selling Star Wars books want, so they can keep making money selling Star Wars books. It's pretty clear from the movies that what the Force wants is the destruction of the Sith, because that's the story George Lucas wanted to tell, and he made the whole thing up in the first place.

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't give two copper about what George Lucas think of the Force and Star Wars. I think it grew well beyond what he initially dreamed of, and that's for the better, seeing as the original trilogy was quite far from what he intended, while the new trilogy was as close as he imagined.

Ergo, George Lucas =/= Authority in the manner.

[Eloi]

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't give two copper about what George Lucas think of the Force and Star Wars. I think it grew well beyond what he initially dreamed of, and that's for the better, seeing as the original trilogy was quite far from what he intended, while the new trilogy was as close as he imagined.

Ergo, George Lucas =/= Authority in the manner.

Wow, did you just try to justify that the creator of a work shouldn't have authority in it? That's just...wrong. I'm sorry, but if I ever create something I wouldn't want somebody to kick me to the curb and say "We don't give a care what you think anymore~" and take over. That's rather nightmare-ish for me and I really don't support that mindset.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Wow, did you just try to justify that the creator of a work shouldn't have authority in it? That's just...wrong. I'm sorry, but if I ever create something I wouldn't want somebody to kick me to the curb and say "We don't give a care what you think anymore~" and take over. That's rather nightmare-ish for me and I really don't support that mindset.

Eh.

Star Wars has become something just bigger than what George Lucas intended. Just because Lucas had some of the basic idea doesn't mean that he is the supreme authority on the matter. He can get many things so horribly wrong.

Just watch some of Pinklett's review to get my point. The man managed to screw up so many things that made the whole mythos of Star Wars. When Yoda was telling that the Force is more than simply brute force, when he says that Jedi should be beyond physical struggle.

Guess he forgot that when he sent Yoda to become a lightsaber spinning machine of death.

Remember, original trilogy = Not Lucas' purely original creation. Plagued by problems, compromises and add-libs from actors.

Prequel trilogy = Lucas' creation as he had in mind (specially Phantom Menace). Actors working in a perfectly artificial environment, no problem, uber-budget, people getting fired if they dare object to Lucas' visionnary inspiration.

[Zevox]

The man managed to screw up so many things that made the whole mythos of Star Wars. When Yoda was telling that the Force is more than simply brute force, when he says that Jedi should be beyond physical struggle.

Guess he forgot that when he sent Yoda to become a lightsaber spinning machine of death.
Then I guess that the fact that Luke still fought lightsaber duels after being trained by Yoda means he was a total failure as a student who didn't learn his lessons well, right?

Seriously, Yoda's objections to combat from the OT were that one shouldn't glorify it. "Great warrior? Wars not make one great." That sort of thing. There was nothing he said which would indicate that he was a total pacifist or the like - hell, he sent Luke off to face Vader as his final test before he could consider himself a Jedi, which was sure to result in physical struggle.

Really, I have no problem with pointing out the problems with the prequel trilogy, but Yoda fighting was not one of them. There's a reason Jedi have lightsabers to begin with, after all.

Zevox

[Jahkaivah]

We already discussed this. There is a force absorb power, in canon it's simply difficult to use(outside of a few bloodlines). Same thing Vader did to Han in Empire Strikes Back.

What really bugs me is, what was bringing down the tree for? Doesn't seem to serve any purpose.

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

[Kish]

Wow, did you just try to justify that the creator of a work shouldn't have authority in it? That's just...wrong. I'm sorry, but if I ever create something I wouldn't want somebody to kick me to the curb and say "We don't give a care what you think anymore~" and take over.
Good. If you ever create a work, then find yourself contemplating doing something like Lucas' prequel movies to it, remember where that leads.

[Tavar]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

...
So? I don't think it's as unprecedented as you make out.

[Jahkaivah]

...
So? I don't think it's as unprecedented as you make out.

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

If prospect of that doesn't break everything you have ever known to be normal then you have forgotten what it means to be human.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All right. I just watched a gameplay video of this game.

It sucked all enthousiasm out of me. :smallfrown: Looks like a stupid game where the characters just stand there in the middle of nowhere shooting at point-blank ranges of each others.

The only characters who can take cover are those which is included in their class feature, apparently. I guess sound tactical mind is a class feature.

It looks stupid, overdone and not serious.

(But after saying that, I'd guess I'm better not player Mass Effet, eh?)

[tyckspoon]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

If prospect of that doesn't break everything you have ever known to be normal then you have forgotten what it means to be human.

In relation to Jedi and particularly in the tradition of the first two Knights games, in which you could choose a Force power that would make you nigh-immune to blasters and lightsabers? Well.. no, that's not really all that surprising.

[Kish]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

If prospect of that doesn't break everything you have ever known to be normal then you have forgotten what it means to be human.
Rather be a Twi'lek anyway. Or a Wookiee. Wonder which races can be Jedi...

[Jahkaivah]

In relation to Jedi and particularly in the tradition of the first two Knights games, in which you could choose a Force power that would make you nigh-immune to blasters and lightsabers? Well.. no, that's not really all that surprising.

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

If prospect of that doesn't break everything you have ever known to be normal then you have forgotten what it means to be human.

[Eloi]

Good. If you ever create a work, then find yourself contemplating doing something like Lucas' prequel movies to it, remember where that leads.

But I thought the prequel movies were very entertaining, and he still has control over his work. Broken Aesop on your part much?


Rather be a Twi'lek anyway. Or a Wookiee. Wonder which races can be Jedi...
The big L said that Wookiees can't be written as Jedi in EU but Twi'leks have no such restriction.

[SolkaTruesilver]

But I thought the prequel movies were very entertaining, and he still has control over his work. Broken Aesop on your part much?
.

Prequels were entertaining in their own rights. But aside from lightsabers and some of the character names, they had nothing to do with the original trilogy.

If I have to choose a feeling that best describe Star Wars, it'll be the original trilogy. If I have to recreate an emotion, a philosophy, a wisdom based on Star wars, I'd base myself on the original trilogy - probably ESB.

The prequels were... kiddy, flashy, eye-candy. They weren't deep nor philosophical in any way.

[Foryn Gilnith]

They weren't deep nor philosophical in any way.

I (or rather, others) would contest the claim that the prequels lacked depth. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/starwars/plan-palpatine.html)

[Jahkaivah]

To be honest, I'm wasn't aware the original trilogy was all that deep either, just alot of fun, along with non hand blockable lightsabers.

[Eloi]

Prequels were entertaining in their own rights. But aside from lightsabers and some of the character names, they had nothing to do with the original trilogy.

If I have to choose a feeling that best describe Star Wars, it'll be the original trilogy. If I have to recreate an emotion, a philosophy, a wisdom based on Star wars, I'd base myself on the original trilogy - probably ESB.

The prequels were... kiddy, flashy, eye-candy. They weren't deep nor philosophical in any way.

The original trilogy wasn't deep AND it wasn't flashy, or had cool light-saber fights, or nice eye-candy.

[SolkaTruesilver]

To be honest, I'm wasn't aware the original trilogy was all that deep either, just alot of fun, along with non hand blockable lightsabers.

The original trilogy was about a Coming of Age story of a young hero trying to go into his father's step, and having to leave his home and everything behind because there wasn't a home there anymore.

It had many of the great character archetypes, and even dealt with the Redemption of the Scoundrel with Han's Big Damned Hero moment.

Then, he went to find the Master that was trying to inspire in him more than mere lightsaber tricks and moving stuff around the Force. The one that would never fight, could barely walk without his stick, and was an horrible cook.

But he breaks away, and think he can face Vader because now, he knows how to use a lightsaber and move stuff around, missing the point Yoda tried to impose on him.

Also, the moments you see Lightsabers in the original trilogy were sparce. You can count them on one hand for each movie. These small moments made the Lightsaber something special to enjoy, not a tool to wave around every 30 seconds in front of the camera, like in the Prequels.

I think GL had a big problem understand what is "special". He hit a good nail with the original trilogy, and tried to hype everything a thousandfold. Face it: a Special Effect isn't "special" when it appears on every single frame during the movie. Well, Lucas missed the boat about that, and about a lot of other elements that made the original movies classics.

[Kish]

But I thought the prequel movies were very entertaining, and he still has control over his work. Broken Aesop on your part much?
I don't think the creator of a (fictional) work should not have authority over it, under any circumstances I can think of. That said, whether George Lucas was the sole or even primary creator of the original Star Wars movies is...extremely debatable at best. The prequel movies were ridiculously bad, but the "Aesop" dealt more with your shocked reaction to SolkaTruesilver's post.

[Drizvolta]

After watching the trailer, all I can say is, man, Alderann will never catch a break huh?

[Mando Knight]

along with non hand blockable lightsabers.

Actually, I've noticed that the only things that lightsabers slash through effortlessly in the original trilogy are things that are about as tough as unarmored flesh anyway... the railing on the second Death Star doesn't fly to pieces like it would now, and Luke makes several hacks before finally slashing through Vader's glove. I don't think that the cut-anything-laser-sword version came until EU material was being published in earnest.
After watching the trailer, all I can say is, man, Alderann will never catch a break huh?Really? What about its first appearance? It really caught a break there. :smallamused:

[Eloi]

I don't think the creator of a (fictional) work should not have authority over it, under any circumstances I can think of. That said, whether George Lucas was the sole or even primary creator of the original Star Wars movies is...extremely debatable at best. The prequel movies were ridiculously bad, but the "Aesop" dealt more with your shocked reaction to SolkaTruesilver's post.

No the prequel movies were AWESOME. They were the best movies I've ever seen in my entire life. Anyway, moving away from unobjective opinions, I do know for a fact that Episode IV was pretty much what the imagined due to the novelization that came before it that was based entirely on his original script treatment, and still being highly similar.

[Zeful]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

If prospect of that doesn't break everything you have ever known to be normal then you have forgotten what it means to be human.

There's a starwars comic that I've read in which one of the jedi teachers eschewed lightsabers entirely and stopped them with a wooden stick. He then explains how he did it (he used the force to make his stick strong enough to repel a lightsaber)

[SolkaTruesilver]

No the prequel movies were AWESOME. They were the best movies I've ever seen in my entire life.

In that case, I don't think we have anything to talk about. Enjoy your life, and I really hope you grow to see our side of the argument eventually.

Ultimately, I don't allow GL's view of Star Wars's mytho any more importance than Zhan's or Stackpole's. None of them has supreme authority, and we need to figure out the best way to make the whole thing coherent while filtering out Anderson the occasional crap.

[Eloi]

In that case, I don't think we have anything to talk about. Enjoy your life, and I really hope you grow to see our side of the argument eventually.

So you want me to be as unhappy as you guys about certain movies? That's really weird.

[Foryn Gilnith]

you guys

Who is "you guys", exactly?

[Eloi]

Who is "you guys", exactly?

Every person who dislikes the prequel trilogy.

[Kish]

Well, if you like every movie you've ever seen, that's one thing. If actually vaguely creepy.

If you don't, though, well, you'd be easier to hold a discussion of Star Wars with if you didn't want to argue that it's a controversial assertion to look at a string of goofy fight scenes, held together by an idiot plot and driven by a villain who lacks any trace of personality but makes up for it with skill at Xanatos Roulette, and say, "My goodness, this stuff is bad."

[Dienekes]

No the prequel movies were AWESOME. They were the best movies I've ever seen in my entire life.

*Dienekes reads this, thinking back to the greats, from Citizen Kane to the Godfather and cries a single tear at what is happening to the world.*

[Eloi]

*Dienekes reads this, thinking back to the greats, from Citizen Kane to the Godfather and cries a single tear at what is happening to the world.*

I never watched those. Again, I said "best movie I've ever seen" not "best movie ever".

[SolkaTruesilver]

I never watched those. Again, I said "best movie I've ever seen" not "best movie ever".

Can I seem snarky and genuinely ask for your age...? :smalleek:

[Dienekes]

I know what you wrote, my statement is still a response to it.

[AmberVael]

She just blocked a lightsaber with her hand.

If prospect of that doesn't break everything you have ever known to be normal then you have forgotten what it means to be human.

Wow, it's almost like this is a universe where you can ignore the laws of physics with willpower, alter people's minds and shoot lightning from your fingertips.

[Jahkaivah]

Wow, it's almost like this is a universe where you can ignore the laws of physics with willpower, alter people's minds and shoot lightning from your fingertips.

It was also a universe where if you tried blocking a Lightsaber with your hand, you said goodbye to the hand.

[Zeful]

It was also a universe where if you tried blocking a Lightsaber with your hand, you said goodbye to the hand.

Unless you possessed knowledge about how to avoid that. As I mentioned above, it's been done before, and it's pretty much a force power.

EDIT: Vodo-Siosk Baas inumbed his staff with the force, enough that it was untouched during lightsaber combat, it took two very powerful simultaneous strikes from two lightsabers to shatter it.

So yeah.

[Mando Knight]

It was also a universe where if you tried blocking a Lightsaber with your hand, you said goodbye to the hand.

By the "laws of physics." Which are broken by telling them to sit down and shut up.

[DranWork]

Each of the movies had their good points and bad. (phantom with Maul for example) I enjoy each one for what it is but none of them are my fave movies either.

As to blocking lightsabers with your hand... why dont they all train that skill an just become immune to everything. Theres being uber and force pushing the blade past your body (by moving the hilt) then theres odd by carching a saber to the chest with your hands and holding it. Theres no real need for the force absorb power or what ever it is, makes the lightsaber even more redundant then it is already.

[Tavar]

As I said before, it's a very difficult, rare talent, with only certain bloodlines practicing it to the degree that they actually could do that.

[AmberVael]

It was also a universe where if you tried blocking a Lightsaber with your hand, you said goodbye to the hand.

So in your book- picking up small space ships with your mind? Okay. Shattering a mountain side with enough force (heh, force) to cause a mini-avalanche? Fine.

But oh man oh man, if you block a laser stick with your magic palm, now that's just going too far. :smalltongue:

[Kris Strife]

I'm kind of wondering if you have to use a lightsaber when you play Jedi.

[DranWork]

I think its the fact that to most people who arnt HUGE starwars fans blocking a lightsaber with your hand is something thats never been done before. Yes the force is all powerful but since its never been shown to be "strong" enough to block a saber then seeing it for the first time gets a lot of "whut tha!" responces. If for example there was a moment in the movies where such a thing happened them people would be like "huh.. okay but what ever" but because tis in a game people are like "Roflhax"

[SmartAlec]

"I'm being overwhelmed! I know, I'll divert my attention away from my enemy and exert a tremendous amount of energy on a tree over there! Maybe it'll fall sort of near us!"

Heh. The Jedi are trained to notice subtle proddings from the Force concerning the immediate and distant future, and act on them. Possibly she just got a hint that bringing down the tree was somehow a good thing, and did it. And hey, her side won, so it couldn't have been that bad an idea.

This is the thing I try to keep in mind when Jedi do something weird in the movies.

[Leon]

I'm kind of wondering if you have to use a lightsaber when you play Jedi.

Yeah i hope not for the Consular or possible just be allowed a single one as i don't like the saber staff much.

I like the look of the Knight, reminds me of how my Jedi ends up each time in KotOR - wearing the heaviest armour around.

[Tome]

Yeah i hope not for the Consular or possible just be allowed a single one as i don't like the saber staff much.

I like the look of the Knight, reminds me of how my Jedi ends up each time in KotOR - wearing the heaviest armour around.

Consulars and Guardians both start off with a single lightsaber. According to what I can find, they then get to pick one of two specialisations later on which changes what sort of lightsaber they wield. Guardians either stick with a single blade and become tanks, or dualwield and focus on damage. Consulars can either stick with a single saber and focus on their force powers even more, or switch to a double-ended saber and focus on buffing themselves with the force.

Consulars also seem to be sticking to traditional robes, while Guardians wear the armour+cloak combo.

As far as I've been able to find out, anyway.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Barehand lightsaber block aside, have any of you actually been thrilled by any of these gameplay videos?

[Zevox]

Barehand lightsaber block aside, have any of you actually been thrilled by any of these gameplay videos?
I haven't seen many, but the one I did watch I was pleased by: this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0nqdbiy3bE) from 2009. I was surprised that it actually looks scant little different from the KotOR games, and it seemed as though there might be an actual story worth a damn going on.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

Oddly (because I despise playing with other people), the idea of the multi-person dialogues going on is more interesting to me than anything else they've displayed.

Could be awesome if done right, could be horribly boring if not. I'm also skeptical how it will work with any more than say, 3 people.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oddly (because I despise playing with other people), the idea of the multi-person dialogues going on is more interesting to me than anything else they've displayed.

Could be awesome if done right, could be horribly boring if not. I'm also skeptical how it will work with any more than say, 3 people.

I don't know what they mean by multi-person dialogue... ?

[Dienekes]

I don't know what they mean by multi-person dialogue... ?

The clip Zevox just posted showed 2 player characters, one a Sith Warrior, another a Bounty Hunter partnering up. They got into a dialogue moment where they needed to RP some. It started with the SW choosing some dialogue options and ended with the BH getting some as well.

My opinion being if they do this right, you can get interesting and complex conversations between NPCs and PCs. If done wrong one player will get all the decisions and the second is along for the ride, making mere pithy statements every once and awhile. Or with a party of 5 or so, where the dialogue is spread too thin between everyone and it isn't fun for anyone.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The clip Zevox just posted showed 2 player characters, one a Sith Warrior, another a Bounty Hunter partnering up. They got into a dialogue moment where they needed to RP some. It started with the SW choosing some dialogue options and ended with the BH getting some as well.

My opinion being if they do this right, you can get interesting and complex conversations between NPCs and PCs. If done wrong one player will get all the decisions and the second is along for the ride, making mere pithy statements every once and awhile. Or with a party of 5 or so, where the dialogue is spread too thin between everyone and it isn't fun for anyone.

Might be nice if they make the party spread out, each leading their team to achieve a mission, each having their objectives/challenges to face.

[Kris Strife]

Yeah i hope not for the Consular or possible just be allowed a single one as i don't like the saber staff much.

I like the look of the Knight, reminds me of how my Jedi ends up each time in KotOR - wearing the heaviest armour around.

I'm just not a huge fan of how lightsabers look. I'm more of a BFS fan.

[Flechair]

Might be nice if they make the party spread out, each leading their team to achieve a mission, each having their objectives/challenges to face.

It's definitely an option, but separating the teams takes away from the team oriented combat. I think that it is reasonable for people to have to separate for short periods of time to achieve multiple objectives. An example would be, your party consists of a jedi guardian and you, a republic soldier. Your ship is under fire, and the sith have boarded. As Bioware often has choices that define your character, you have the option to break party formation so one of you can saving the lowly passengers while the other temporarily fights the sith alone. You'd be getting 'paragon' points, but also you'd be making the battle more difficult.


Also, do you have any idea how they integrate the storyline with an MMO? I haven't played very many MMOs, so my first guess is that they'll be in instances.

[Kish]

In EQ2 and WoW, generally they require players who want to roleplay to ignore the fact that the boss you just killed--and who, as far as your ongoing storyline is concerned, is permanently dead and you killed him--will respawn in ten minutes, ready to be killed by the next player to get to that point in the storyline.

[tyckspoon]

ready to be killed by you five more times while you try to get the RNG to cough up that one item that is actually useful for your particular class and role.

Yeah, MMOs have really horrible immersion issues that way.

[Calemyr]

In EQ2 and WoW, generally they require players who want to roleplay to ignore the fact that the boss you just killed--and who, as far as your ongoing storyline is concerned, is permanently dead and you killed him--will respawn in ten minutes, ready to be killed by the next player to get to that point in the storyline.

Like this (http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/080820)?

[warty goblin]

The clip Zevox just posted showed 2 player characters, one a Sith Warrior, another a Bounty Hunter partnering up. They got into a dialogue moment where they needed to RP some. It started with the SW choosing some dialogue options and ended with the BH getting some as well.

My opinion being if they do this right, you can get interesting and complex conversations between NPCs and PCs. If done wrong one player will get all the decisions and the second is along for the ride, making mere pithy statements every once and awhile. Or with a party of 5 or so, where the dialogue is spread too thin between everyone and it isn't fun for anyone.

Having watched that clip, my basic question is this: I'm playing with a real person, in a game with other real people. Creatively it seems the stronger option to really leverage that, instead of making a big deal about engaging in a fairly poor simulacrum of a conversation with a fake person - something that Bioware's (among others') existing titles already allow without a monthly fee.

Even more weirdly, what could possibly be the appeal of watching somebody else do that? It's hardly as if clicking dialog options requires such skill that one can be impressed and enthralled by observing it. Nor is the usual appeal of the dialog tree- putting yourself in character- really there, since at that point your character is doing their best impersonation of a chair. It's like selling Youtube gameplay videos.

I'm just very confused as to why sitting out half the time on content that does nothing to take advantage of being online is a selling point for an online game.

[Jahkaivah]

So in your book- picking up small space ships with your mind? Okay. Shattering a mountain side with enough force (heh, force) to cause a mini-avalanche? Fine.

But oh man oh man, if you block a laser stick with your magic palm, now that's just going too far. :smalltongue:

Glad to see you agree with me. Ah, the time when a swords blade posed a threat eh?

[Zevox]

Angry Joe interviews one of the designers of The Old Republic (http://angryjoeshow.com/2010/06/swtor-interview/). Some interesting stuff there actually. For instance, it seems that the multiplayer dialogue system actually works so that everyone in the party selects each dialogue option, and factors such as their class and stats as they relate to the particular dialogue option determine which of them actually act on the choice - albeit with a majority-rules system taking over for story-critical choices such as sparing or killing an NPC.

...and I must admit, if the stories actually work the way he described in that interview, and if the game is playable single-player, I might actually consider getting it. Maybe.

Zevox

[Tavar]

Glad to see you agree with me. Ah, the time when a swords blade posed a threat eh?

Yeah, and when guns would easily mow down those wielding swords....OH WAIT!