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acid_ninja
2010-06-15, 06:03 AM
Hi Guys,

I'm building a character that I want to be a ToB gish. I'd like to use Krimm's Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794) or maybe Errantx's Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109516).

The problem is qualifying. I'm starting at level 5 so there's no way to qualify for the Eldritch Knight that I can see. Need +4 BAB, 2nd level spells and manuevers and 6 ranks in martial lore. That means either Duskblade 5/Warblade 1 or Warblade 3/Wizard 3. With Duskblade I get lots of neat extras but ultimately weaker spellcasting. With wiz I lose flavor but get batmaniness.

Or I could go bladesinger and qualify at level 5 (1st level spells, 2nd level maneuvers, concentration 8 ranks so Bard 2/Warblade 3) but then I'm trading in a lot of Ultimate Cosmic Power. As far as MAD is concerned the two are pretty similar (Str and Int for option 1/ Dex and Cha for option 2) and both have pretty similar ToB stuff. I'd really like to qualify for Eldritch Knight early if you can find a way.

cheezewizz2000
2010-06-15, 06:07 AM
I've probably been Ninja'd, but Jade Pheonix Mage (TOB) is great for this straight out the box. Also, you NEED Abjurant Champion (CM) . 5 levels, 5 BAB and 5 Caster levels? Yes please.

Edit: Most Gishes start prestige classes at around 6th level for the same reasons as the problems that you are facing. It may be worth just being a little bit sucky for 1 level until you can enter the major prestige classes.

PId6
2010-06-15, 06:37 AM
Wizard 4/Warblade 2 seems to be the best lead-in to Eldritch Knight. You have better spellcasting than Warblade 3/Wizard 3, the same bab, and nearly the same maneuvers. Wizard casting is much better than duskblade casting, so you're much better off choosing that.

If you're going to get to high levels, you should stagger Eldritch Knight levels with other gish PrCs so that you get the best maneuvers your initiator level allows. Something like this:

Wizard 4/Warblade 2/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Eldritch Knight +3/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6

This gets you 9th level spells and the highest maneuvers possible in 20 levels without losing more spell levels.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-15, 06:38 AM
You could go Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 4/ Warblade 1/ New Eldritch Knight. Take the feat Battle Caster from CA and you can cast spells in medium armor.

PId6
2010-06-15, 06:48 AM
You could go Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 4/ Warblade 1/ New Eldritch Knight. Take the feat Battle Caster from CA and you can cast spells in medium armor.
No no no. Battle Sorcerer is never worth it, even for early entry. It cripples you way too much to be good for anything. :smallannoyed:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-15, 07:16 AM
No no no. Battle Sorcerer is never worth it, even for early entry. It cripples you way too much to be good for anything. :smallannoyed:

Well, you could go Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold, even without Loredrake it's totally worth it to use both Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer.

PId6
2010-06-15, 07:58 AM
Well, you could go Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold, even without Loredrake it's totally worth it to use both Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer.
By that point you've given up sorcerer casting for wizard casting, so yeah, I guess so. Actual sorcerers should never take Battle Sorcerer though.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 08:02 AM
No no no. Battle Sorcerer is never worth it, even for early entry. It cripples you way too much to be good for anything. :smallannoyed:

It cripples you compared to a regular sorcerer, I agree. That drops you to what, Tier 3? 4?

It's bad, but not unplayable.

PId6
2010-06-15, 08:04 AM
It cripples you compared to a regular sorcerer, I agree. That drops you to what, Tier 3? 4?

It's bad, but not unplayable.
It's no CW Samurai, I agree. Still, on principle, I dislike variants/PrCs that dramatically drop a class's power unless it's purposefully for the sake of balance. When regular sorcerer is an option, you should never ever take Battle Sorcerer.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 08:18 AM
Wizard 4/Warblade 2 seems to be the best lead-in to Eldritch Knight. You have better spellcasting than Warblade 3/Wizard 3, the same bab, and nearly the same maneuvers. Wizard casting is much better than duskblade casting, so you're much better off choosing that.

If you're going to get to high levels, you should stagger Eldritch Knight levels with other gish PrCs so that you get the best maneuvers your initiator level allows. Something like this:

Wizard 4/Warblade 2/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Eldritch Knight +3/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6

This gets you 9th level spells and the highest maneuvers possible in 20 levels without losing more spell levels.

Needs a level of Spellsword for easier armour usage (unless Spellsword has some wierd pre-req I'm forgetting).

Il_Vec
2010-06-15, 08:21 AM
Spellsword needs all simple and martial weapons... Warblade, ironically, doesn't get them (He only gets the Melee weapons).

PId6
2010-06-15, 08:23 AM
Needs a level of Spellsword for easier armour usage (unless Spellsword has some wierd pre-req I'm forgetting).
Why? You're better off with Greater Mage/Luminous Armor over any actual armor anyway. And Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt still works if you really want it.

And yeah, prereq can actually be difficult, in both martial weapons and heavy armor.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-15, 08:56 AM
No no no. Battle Sorcerer is never worth it, even for early entry. It cripples you way too much to be good for anything. :smallannoyed:

Well it is not RAW, but me and my DM agreed to let Sorcerer get the Domain Variant for wizards instead of a familiar, that way a Battle Sorcerer isn't crippled Battle Transmutation Domain Sorcerer FTW:smallbiggrin:

Note; I know it is a houserule but it is a nice one.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 09:05 AM
Spellsword needs all simple and martial weapons... Warblade, ironically, doesn't get them (He only gets the Melee weapons).

I thought here was something.

And Luminous Armour only works for non-Evil Gishes (again I'm AFB so I can't be sure on this).

PId6
2010-06-15, 09:08 AM
I thought here was something.

And Luminous Armour only works for non-Evil Gishes (again I'm AFB so I can't be sure on this).
Yes, hence why Greater Mage Armor is also there. +6 AC is pretty much better than most armors you're capable of wearing anyway, and you can still wear Mithril Padded Armor with enhancement bonus and whatever special abilities you like.

Il_Vec
2010-06-15, 09:12 AM
The improved Eldritch Knight that the OP refers to gets to use light armor without any spell failure. I think that means mithral breastplate is the go-to armor here.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 09:24 AM
It's no CW Samurai, I agree. Still, on principle, I dislike variants/PrCs that dramatically drop a class's power unless it's purposefully for the sake of balance. When regular sorcerer is an option, you should never ever take Battle Sorcerer.

I agree, but for a different reason; I can model the concept of a "Battle Sorcerer" much more easily by simply playing a Wilder. Thus I find the variant to be extraneous. But I do think the concept is cool.

Morph Bark
2010-06-15, 09:27 AM
Yes, hence why Greater Mage Armor is also there. +6 AC is pretty much better than most armors you're capable of wearing anyway, and you can still wear Mithril Padded Armor with enhancement bonus and whatever special abilities you like.

If you plan on playing a gish that uses Mage Armor or Luminous Armor, Abjurant Champion becomes a must-have. While Mage Armor isn't an abjuration spell and thus wouldn't qualify for the increase in armor bonus Abjurant Champion gives, it is used as one of the example spells in the very class feature that does this, so any reasonable DM would allow for this. Great Mage Armor + Abjurant Champion = armor +11, yum.

PId6
2010-06-15, 09:31 AM
The improved Eldritch Knight that the OP refers to gets to use light armor without any spell failure. I think that means mithral breastplate is the go-to armor here.
Greater Mage Armor is still better here (6 AC vs 5, no ACP vs -1). And if you're going Abjurant Champion (you should), Greater Luminous Armor gets so much better that it's worth limiting yourself to Good just to get it (UMD might work on a Runestaff of Greater Luminous Armor even if you're not).

Il_Vec
2010-06-15, 09:39 AM
Greater Mage Armor is still better here (6 AC vs 5, no ACP vs -1). And if you're going Abjurant Champion (you should), Greater Luminous Armor gets so much better that it's worth limiting yourself to Good just to get it (UMD might work on a Runestaff of Greater Luminous Armor even if you're not).

Personally, I'd get both. Maybe something else will need that spell slot.

Greenish
2010-06-15, 09:45 AM
Well it is not RAW, but me and my DM agreed to let Sorcerer get the Domain Variant for wizards instead of a familiar, that way a Battle Sorcerer isn't crippled Battle Transmutation Domain Sorcerer FTW:smallbiggrin:The sorcerer would still be much better off without Battle Sorcerer.

Gnaritas
2010-06-15, 09:47 AM
Wizard 4/Warblade 2 seems to be the best lead-in to Eldritch Knight. You have better spellcasting than Warblade 3/Wizard 3, the same bab, and nearly the same maneuvers.

How about Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Warblade 1.
Probably best to go HP/W/HP/HP/W/WB skills and HP-wise.

That's trading 2 Wizard levels and a Warblade for 3 Human Paragon. Resulting in the same CL and BaB.
The Wizard levels are no loss since you get nothing extra from them, the Warblade level lost is a pity. You do however gain some skills, a feat and +2 to an ability.....

acid_ninja
2010-06-15, 09:55 AM
If you're going to get to high levels, you should stagger Eldritch Knight levels with other gish PrCs so that you get the best maneuvers your initiator level allows.

Well, considering that this is for your RHoD game I'm not sure how high a level I'd be attaining....

Myshlaevsky
2010-06-15, 10:09 AM
Well, considering that this is for your RHoD game I'm not sure how high a level I'd be attaining....

Assuming the module is as-written, level 11 or 12.

PId6
2010-06-15, 10:42 AM
How about Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Warblade 1.
Probably best to go HP/W/HP/HP/W/WB skills and HP-wise.
Hmm, I haven't considered Human Paragon. The only loss is a maneuver/IL and Uncanny Dodge (and you have to be human, but that's not much of a loss), but the bonus feat probably makes up for it. I like it.


Well, considering that this is for your RHoD game I'm not sure how high a level I'd be attaining....
11 or 12 is correct, though we may continue after that (to be decided much later). You should probably just go straight into Eldritch Knight then.

ErrantX
2010-06-15, 12:11 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm building a character that I want to be a ToB gish. I'd like to use Krimm's Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794) or maybe Errantx's Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109516).

*snip*

Or I could go bladesinger and qualify at level 5 (1st level spells, 2nd level maneuvers, concentration 8 ranks so Bard 2/Warblade 3) but then I'm trading in a lot of Ultimate Cosmic Power. As far as MAD is concerned the two are pretty similar (Str and Int for option 1/ Dex and Cha for option 2) and both have pretty similar ToB stuff. I'd really like to qualify for Eldritch Knight early if you can find a way.

Well, your problem with my Bladesinger has actually been solved by someone else, if you're thinking bard as a base.


Initial builds would make for one bad bard blade. Bard 4/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 1-5/Sublime Chord 1/Bladesinger 6-10/Abjurant Champion (maybe?) 4 would have 16th level bardic abilities, CL 17, 9th level spells, easily reachable +10 Inspire Courage with Words of Creation, and a ton of bardic music uses for use with Spellstrike, at BAB 18. I like!

This is pretty much what you'd want to do.

-X

Escheton
2010-06-16, 07:41 AM
How about: Factotum/Warblade/Wizard/Elf paragon3/Jade Phoenix mage 4?

Not only does it kick ass and cast spells. You can also ace most skillchecks and get your massive int to the critical(situationally not hits) strikes you need. Take 2 more factotum lvls anywhere in there too trip a mountain and minotaur maneuver an ogre off a cliff from 20 ft away.
It's no tier -16 though

Coidzor
2010-06-16, 03:06 PM
How about Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Warblade 1.
Probably best to go HP/W/HP/HP/W/WB skills and HP-wise.

That's trading 2 Wizard levels and a Warblade for 3 Human Paragon. Resulting in the same CL and BaB.
The Wizard levels are no loss since you get nothing extra from them, the Warblade level lost is a pity. You do however gain some skills, a feat and +2 to an ability.....

Only thing I have to say about this route is that you won't be able to have your familiar deliver touch spells without another level in a familiar-granting class. But, eh, probably not much of a concern.

Escheton
2010-06-16, 03:11 PM
Get the obtain familiar feat. Think it makes all lvls familiar lvls and maybe even nets you a better familiar. Afb, so...

Pluto
2010-06-16, 05:21 PM
This is pretty much what you'd want to do.

-X
Wait; you didn't intentionally word that class to be SC-incompatible?
:smallredface:
I get the feeling I just spent an absurd amount of time working around something that didn't need to be tinkered with.

But if it flies, I'd second a build along those lines. Your Bladesinger is neat.
(And I'm not really sure what Krimm's EK's central ability actually does.)