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aeauseth
2010-06-15, 02:23 PM
So I've seen posts that suggest "Divine Magician" allows you to use DMM on the new spells, which suggests the new spells are actually divine spells.

I've also seen posts that suggest Divine Magician will qualify you for Mystic Thurge, which suggests the new spells are actually arcane spells.

Which is it? Can't be both. Are the new spells (from the wizard spell list) divine or arcane? Is there a RAW reference that answers my question?

I personally think they are divine, since you have to pray for them just like all your other divine spells.

Jarian
2010-06-15, 02:26 PM
...you can add one 1st-level abjuration, divination, or necromancy wizard spell to your cleric spell list...


A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list.

They're divine spells.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 03:20 PM
Actually, they are arcane spells.


This section provides alternative class feature options for the eleven classes from the Player's Handbook, as well as some classes from supplements. Many of these alternative class features grant a minor arcane talent or twist to a character, while others provide some protection against the tactics commonly used by arcane spellcasters.



DIVINE MAGICIAN
Deities influence the world through the divine spells they grant their worshipers. Some clerics, however, choose to explore magical powers beyond those commonly provided by the gods. By giving up some of their divine power, these clerics gain access to spells normally beyond their abilities.

And finally:


Special Requirement: Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank.

The ACFs in Complete Mage either grant arcane abilities, or defend against them.

Jarian
2010-06-15, 03:24 PM
None of that changes a cleric's spellcasting from divine to arcane. None of that is rules.

"Divine power" pretty clearly (imho, if it was obviously clear there wouldn't be a debate at all) refers to the domain you give up. Spells beyond their normal abilities are wizard spells. The minor arcane twist is wizard spells.

They're still cast as divine spells, because they are added to the Cleric's list, and Clerics cast divine spells.

Tar Palantir
2010-06-15, 03:29 PM
None of that changes a cleric's spellcasting from divine to arcane. None of that is rules.

"Divine power" pretty clearly (imho, if it was obviously clear there wouldn't be a debate at all) refers to the domain you give up. Spells beyond their normal abilities are wizard spells. The minor arcane twist is wizard spells.

They're still cast as divine spells, because they are added to the Cleric's list, and Clerics cast divine spells.

Jarian has the right of it. The text decisively adds them to the cleric spell list as divine spells.

Ernir
2010-06-15, 03:38 PM
Divine spells. Because by default, Cleric spells are divine spells, and none of the text changes that.

The page 31 text does not define what the "arcane talent or twist" a character with a CMage ACF is supposed to get.
The page 31 text does not say all the CMage ACFs give arcane talents or twists, only that "most" of them do, and that "others" provide defenses against them. It is possible, by that text, that in CMage there are ACFs which are neither.
The page 33 text does not say that the spells are normally beyond the abilities of Clerics because they are arcane spells.
Something requiring a Knowledge: Arcana rank does not mean the spells provided by it are arcane spells.

Os1ris09
2010-06-15, 03:54 PM
So in essence the spells are arcane. But there are some spells in those schools that wizards get sooner than clerics do and therefore can reduce the level of the spell.

So with that mentioned could you still qualify for the M.S. PrC because you took the spell of the arcane list at a lower level than that of the divine list?

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-15, 04:01 PM
So in essence the spells are arcane.

No, they're not. Divine Magician adds the spell to the Cleric's spell-list, making it a divine spell.


So with that mentioned could you still qualify for the M.S. PrC because you took the spell of the arcane list at a lower level than that of the divine list?

M.S?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-15, 04:02 PM
Master Specialist.

And how would a Cleric, even with Divine Magician, qualify for Master Specialist? They're not a specialist wizard by any definition.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-15, 04:02 PM
Master Specialist.

And that would explain why I was confused.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 04:09 PM
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm sticking to my guns. Nowhere does the ACF say it converts the spells into divine spells - merely that it adds them to the cleric's list.

The PHB does say that clerics cast divine spells, but as it was written before Complete Mage, this is therefore the general rule for clerics - with Divine Magician providing the specific exception. By this reading, specific trumps general.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-15, 04:13 PM
Except the ACF says nothing about casting them as Divine spells. If it said you had to obey Arcane Spell Failure and could cast spells of opposing alignments, you'd be right, they'd be Arcane, but it doesn't, so they're not. They're Divine, you can cast them in armor, but can't cast those of opposing alignments, and they qualify for Divine Metamagic.

Jarian
2010-06-15, 04:14 PM
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm sticking to my guns. Nowhere does the ACF say it converts the spells into divine spells - merely that it adds them to the cleric's list.

Which, quite coincidentally, are divine spells


The PHB does say that clerics cast divine spells, but as it was written before Complete Mage, this is therefore the general rule for clerics - with Divine Magician providing the specific exception. By this reading, specific trumps general.

You're twisting the wording to give clerics arcane spells. You're twisting/ignoring the only rules on the subject - that of Clerics casting divine spells by default - to your purposes, rules be damned.

As a houserule, that's fine. Easy to exploit, but fine. But that's not what the rules actually say.

dextercorvia
2010-06-15, 04:16 PM
If Optimystic is correct in this, wouldn't that imply that Cloistered Cleric casts arcane spells for the same reason? Sorcerer/Wizard spells that aren't on a divine list are arcane, and it never says that they are converted into divine spells, only that they are added to the spell list.


Spellcasting

Add the following spells to the cloistered cleric's class spell list: 0—message; 1st—erase, identify, unseen servant; 2nd—fox's cunning; 3rd—illusory script, secret page, tongues (reduced from 4th level); 4th—detect scrying; 6th—analyze dweomer; 7th—sequester; 9th—vision.

I'm not arguing for this. I think I agree with Jarian, and this is an example of another similar case where I think most folks would agree that a CC casts these as Divine spells.

I once had a DM rule that it was close enough to let me get my Oracle of Istus (Cloistered Cleric of Istus with 2 levels of DO) into Fatespinner, but that is a separate issue.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-15, 04:19 PM
Besides, there's no definition for Divine spells or Arcane spells, beyond which classes' lists they're on. Is "Fireball" an "arcane" spell? Only if it's cast by an arcanist. Is "Hallow" a "divine" spell? Only if it's cast by a priest. Etc.

For example, is "Dispel Magic" an "arcane" spell, or a "divine" spell? That depends entirely on who is casting it.

jiriku
2010-06-15, 04:22 PM
Given that clerics typically wear armor, which imposes ASF, and the ACF doesn't warn you that you have to worry about spell failure when you cast these new spells, I'd say the RAI is very straightforward here. ASF is a REALLY BIG DEAL to players, and I'd expect even a sloppy writer to comment on it if he'd intended the spells to be cast as arcane.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 04:25 PM
The Cloistered Cleric example isn't as relevant - nothing in their description mentions anything about "arcane", but the DM's does.


Besides, there's no definition for Divine spells or Arcane spells, beyond which classes' lists they're on. Is "Fireball" an "arcane" spell? Only if it's cast by an arcanist. Is "Hallow" a "divine" spell? Only if it's cast by a priest. Etc.

No definition, but it changes what they can interact with (just like spell descriptors.)

Under my interpretation, a DM Cleric can qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Under yours, an Archivist can learn every abjuration, necromancy and divination in the game.

I agree the lack of ASF is suspect.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-15, 04:27 PM
Optimystik, I expect better of you. This is not an interpretation, it's a houserule. There are many on these boards who like to push their interpretations as RAW instead of the houserules that they are, and I've seen you argue with them. This is no different.

Keld Denar
2010-06-15, 04:28 PM
The opposite side of the coin is very explicit in this. A wizard with Arcane Disciple casts spells from a domain as arcane spells. The only difference between a spell gained by Arcane Disciple and a normal spell on the wiz/sorc list is that an Arcane Disciple spell can only be prepped/cast once (explicit), and that wisdom is used for all aspects of the spell (DC, castability, etc...also explicit). In every other way, the spell is just a normal arcane spell, complete with arcane spell failure and all those other nuances.

Similarly, a spell gained through Divine Magician should be a divine spell. It lacks the requirement that Arcane Disciple explicitly puts in, notably the 1/day and DC/castability off a different stat, but is in all other ways similar. Spells cast by a wizard are arcane, spells cast by a cleric are divine.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 04:30 PM
Optimystik, I expect better of you. This is not an interpretation, it's a houserule. There are many on these boards who like to push their interpretations as RAW instead of the houserules that they are, and I've seen you argue with them. This is no different.

Sheesh, lighten up. Didn't I just say it was suspect? :smallconfused:

I agree, I am a very bad man! *wags finger*

DragoonWraith
2010-06-15, 04:58 PM
Meh, wording there was unnecessarily condescending, in retrospect. Sorry about that, was not intended. I was surprised; it was supposed to be somewhat complimentary. My apologies.

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 05:18 PM
Meh, wording there was unnecessarily condescending, in retrospect. Sorry about that, was not intended. I was surprised; it was supposed to be somewhat complimentary. My apologies.

No problem. And I agree, RAW appears to be against me.

RAI could go either way - on one hand, we have the prevalent use of "arcane" in the ACF section (and the fact that CM is a, well, arcane splat); while on the other hand, the lack of ASF is a killer, since that's one of the few balancers WotC never fails to miss.

Oh well, there's always Alternate Source Spell and/or Southern Magician.

Os1ris09
2010-06-15, 06:11 PM
No, they're not. Divine Magician adds the spell to the Cleric's spell-list, making it a divine spell.



M.S?

Sorry I meant M.T. for Mystic Theurge. :smalltongue:

aeauseth
2010-06-15, 06:33 PM
So looks like we are (mostly) agreed that Divine Magician allows the cleric to add some wizard spells to the cleric's spell list, which are considered divine spells.

As such no ASF checks. You can't use it to qualify for Mystic Thurge. You could use DMM to persist the spell(s). Using "Shield" as an example you could memorize several "Shield" spells. You could even use a wand of sheild since it's on your spell list.

Use your WIS as primary characteristic for DCs.

It appears (by my reading) that at most you could have 9 Divine Magician spells (one for each spell level).

BTW: I found a Divine Magician Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8344.0).

Coidzor
2010-06-15, 07:05 PM
Wouldn't it mention needing the necessary INT to cast them if it was arcane wizard spells that just used the cleric slots? :smallconfused:

Optimystik
2010-06-15, 07:13 PM
Wouldn't it mention needing the necessary INT to cast them if it was arcane wizard spells that just used the cleric slots? :smallconfused:

That's not consistently applied. You don't need Int for Southern Magician, for instance.

Note that Southern Magician lets you bypass ASF as well, though at least there they spell it out.