View Full Version : [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Introduction
I’ve recently been wondering at the lack of a good rogue’s handbook. Rogue is one of the core classes, and fairly iconic too, so it’s curious why there isn’t a good handbook for it. The only one I found is five years old and seems to be very outdated, so I set out to make a handbook myself. I know quite a lot of useful rogue optimization tricks, but I don’t know every book or every trick, so if anyone has any good ones I’d love to know about them. Specifically, I’m not very familiar with Magic of Incarnum, so if there are any nice rogue-related things in there, please tell me. I can also use more good PrC options for rogues, so some ideas on those are good too. And if I make a mistake somewhere, even if it's just a formatting problem or typo, please please tell me!
Table of Contents
Attributes and Races (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711245&postcount=2)
Class Features and ACFs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711257&postcount=3)
Multiclassing and PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711267&postcount=4)
Skills and Skill Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711274&postcount=5)
Feats and More Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711279&postcount=6)
Maneuvers, Stances, and Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711290&postcount=7)
Equipment and Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711294&postcount=8)
Methods of Combat, Builds, and Links (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711297&postcount=9)
Sources Guide
CAdv = Complete Adventurer
CArc = Complete Arcane
CC = Complete Champion
CM = Complete Mage
CoR = Champions of Ruin
CoV = Champions of Valor
CP = Complete Psionic
CS = Complete Scoundrel
CW = Complete Warrior
DMG = Dungeon Master’s Guide
DM = Dragon Magic
Draco = Draconomicon
Dung = Dungeonscape
ECS = Eberron Campaign Setting
EoE = Exemplars of Evil
FC1 = Fiendish Codex I
FC2 = Fiendish Codex II
FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Frost = Frostburn
LM = Liber Mortis
MH = Miniatures Handbook
MIC = Magic Item Compendium
MM = Monster Manual
MM2 = Monster Manual 2
MoI = Magic of Incarnum
OA = Oriental Adventures
PGtF = Player’s Guide to Faerun
PH = Planar Handbook
PHB = Player’s Handbook
PHB2 = Player’s Handbook 2
RoD = Races of Destiny
RoE = Races of Eberron
RoS = Races of Stone
RotD = Races of the Dragon
RotW = Races of the Wild
Sand = Sandstorm
Sharn = Sharn, City of Towers
SK = Serpent Kingdoms
SpC = Spell Compendium
SS = Savage Species
ToB = Tome of Battle
ToM = Tome of Magic
UA = Unearthed Arcana
Una = Unapproachable East
Web = Web Enhancement (along with link)
XPH = Expanded Psionic Handbook
Color Guide
Blue = Amazing
Green = Good
Purple = Decent or situational
Red = Terrible in all circumstances
Attributes
Strength – Typically, dumping this stat is a good idea. You’ll want Weapon Finesse, and most of your damage is coming from Sneak Attack anyway. If you have enough to carry things, you’re good.
Dexterity – Most rogues want this as high as possible. It determines your reflex saves, AC, and often to-hit (Weapon Finesse), sometimes even determining damage (Shadow Blade). It also raises many of your most important skills and both two-weapon fighting and archery require a certain amount of this. Only dedicated social rogues should consider skimping on this and even then not too much.
Constitution – Pretty much every non-undead character wants this high no exception. This determines your survival rate, so keep this at least at 14+. It can be lower if you’re ranged or intend to never be seen, but never have it less than 12.
Intelligence – Despite getting at least 8 skill points per level, rogues still don’t have enough, especially if they want to take on multiple roles like scout/trapfinder/face. 12 or 14 here is nice, though you can get away with 10 if you’ve a narrower focus. Humans have it easier due to the extra skill points they get.
Wisdom – Often a dump stat. Your will saves suck, but you need too many stats to keep this high. It also affects your perception skills, so at least 10 here is nice, but 8 won’t hurt too much. It gets more important if you’re taking multiple levels of swordsage.
Charisma – Determines your social skills and Use Magic Device. You don’t have too many spare points and the effect on skills isn’t that important except on early levels, so dumping this isn’t too painful unless you’re a dedicated social rogue. It’s more important than Wisdom though.
Sample Elite Array: Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 13
Sample 25 PB: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10
Sample 28 PB: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
Sample 32 PB: Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Races
Things to consider about races:
Attributes – You want races that boost Dex/Int/Con and dump Str/Wis. Consider carefully any race that lower any of the three primary stats.
Bonus Feats – Any race that gives you relevant bonus feats are great, since rogues are incredibly feat-starved due to the number of must-take feats there are (two-weapon fighting and archery are two of the most feat-intensive combat styles in the game).
Skills – A bonus to key skills like Hide/Move Silently/Search are nice to have. Keep in mind though, unless the skill bonus is positively huge (like Whisper Gnome’s Hide boost), you’ll need a bit more to compete with races that grant bonus feats or attribute boosts. Skill boosts themselves aren’t enough.
Small Size – Being Small is quite helpful for a rogue due to the extra to-hit, AC, and +Hide. Being Small is definitely a plus when picking races for a rogue.
Favored Class – Now hopefully, your DM has killed the multiclassing XP penalty and buried its corpse like it deserves, but if not, then favored class is probably quite important. Rogues have a lot to gain from multiclassing, so you definitely don’t want to take a penalty to XP gain or be forced to not multiclass.
Level Adjustment – Most races with level adjustment are not worth it at all. If your DM allows LA buyoff, then an LA +1 might be worthwhile, but otherwise avoid like the plague unless the race has some really good abilities.
Races
HumanPHB – As always, one of the best choices for pretty much anything. This bonus feat is immensely useful, and the extra skill points are always nice. Favored Class: Any is necessary for games where the DM actually keeps the multiclassing penalty, and the ability to take Able Leaner is one of the biggest draws about them, since it lets you keep up with your skillmonkey duties while multiclassing. You can never go wrong with Human.
AzurinMoI – Pretty much as humans, except you trade the bonus skill points for a point of essentia. Rogues can really use the extra skill points, so only choose this option if you're going to be taking Shape Soulmeld or multiclassing into incarnum classes.
Strongheart HalflingFRCS – Up there with Humans, the Strongheart Halfling is one of the best choices for rogue races as well. You trade the +1 to saves that regular Halflings get for a Bonus Feat instead, which is much better. It’s Small, gets a bonus to Dex, and even has some nice skill boosts and Favored Class: Rogue. The only downside is the 20 ft movement speed, as well as the lack of Able Learner. It’s technically Forgotten Realms specific, so it might be harder to find allowed too. If it’s not available, regular HalflingsPHB or Tallfellow HalflingsMM are decent too.
Whisper GnomeRoS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) – Just plain amazing. +Dex and +Con, Small size, a total of +8(!!) Hide, +4 Move Silently, +2 Spot and +2 Listen, 30 ft movement, Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Favored Class: Rogue, and some SLAs on top of that. These make for almost perfect rogues, with only the Cha hit and the lack of Able Learner being problematic.
Dragonwrought KoboldRotD, Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), MM – With one feat, you get a race with +2 to Dex, +3 to all mental stats, natural armor, Darkvision, 30 ft movement, +8 to Hide, Small size (Tiny when needed), a small bonus to Search, and some natural weapons for kicks. If possible, choose Desert KoboldUA, since you get to trade the Con hit for a Wis hit instead and even have Favored Class: Rogue. And if you want to get really cheesy, look into Sovereign Archetypes in Dragons of Eberron; they aren’t just for sorcerers anymore. Wyrm of War, for example, solves your feat problem by giving five extra fighter bonus feats over the course of 20 levels. As if all of that isn't enough, you also get access to the Rapidstrike line, letting you get a huge assortment of natural attacks (see builds section). Have fun with that while your DM smacks you with the DMG.
Lesser TieflingFRCS – Like the regular Tiefling but without the LA and the Native Outsider type. Has some great stat adjustments along with Darkvision, energy resistances, a few skill boosts, and Favored Class: Rogue.
ChangelingECS – These make nice social rogues if you’re into that. Minor Change Shape has nice sneaky implications, and you can take Able Learner as well (see the Adaptation section of the Chameleon class in RoD). The best part about the Changeling is the racial substitution levels in RoE, making Changelings unparalleled social rogues.
RaptoranRotW – Extraordinary flight is usually pretty hard to get, so getting it LA free is pretty nice. They make good archer rogues, and they’re a lot more resilient against Anti-Magic Fields than most characters.
DragonbornRotD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) – It’s a great template that’s good for most characters. The Dex hit is annoying, but can be evened out with the right entry race. The Con gain is great, and its abilities can be really helpful. Wings are good for the same reason Raptorans are good, while the enhanced senses aspect help out sneaky rogues and the breath weapon helps you deal with creatures immune to Sneak Attack. If you apply it to something with +Dex like Whisper Gnome or Lesser Tiefling, they can be fantastic.
MuckdwellerSK - If you don't mind looking like a crossbreed between a worm and a lizard and being scrawnier than a kobold, these can work pretty well. Tiny size works for ranged combat and Confound the Big Folk builds, and they get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. They also get a natural attack, decent ability adjustments (make sure you've enough Str to carry your gear), and their Squirt ability is actually quite good at early levels.
Air GoblinUA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#airGoblins) – Amazing boost to Dex for a LA +0 race, along with Small size, +4 Hide (size)/Move Silently, 30 ft movement speed, and Darkvision. The Con penalty hurts, but the bonuses are potentially worth it. Not quite as good as Whisper Gnomes and Strongheart Halflings, but they're still pretty decent and make for okay Dragonborns.
GoblinMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) – Same as Air Goblin, but less Dex and Cha in exchange for more Con. These guys actually make decent sneaky rogues in core. They won’t be great in social situations, but you can do worse when it comes to combat. Whisper Gnomes are almost strictly better out of core though, and Air Goblins tend to be superior as well.
Gray ElfMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) – They have +Int and +Dex, as well as some nice skill bonuses, but the loss of Con is always painful. They’re not horrible if you must be an elf for some reason, but otherwise there are much better choices.
Half ElfPHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#halfElf) – Save yourself a lot of trouble and avoid this. They have basically no racial features; even PHB elves are better, and that’s saying something. There are only two reasons to ever want to play a half elf rogue: you want to make a maxed-out diplomancer, or you’re going for some kind of PrC that requires elf and you’d get multiclassing penalties without it. Changelings make better social rogues who still get to do other stuff besides diplomacize, and multiclassing penalties shouldn’t exist anyway. Just avoid this.
Level Adjusted Races
Generally level adjustment tends to be bad for rogues (and anyone else). However, certain races may be worth the lost levels, depending on what you're looking for in your build. If LA BuyoffUA is allowed, most of these options get better, but you still need to carefully weigh whether the costs are worth the benefits.
DarkToM (LA +1) – This is a template that grants +10 speed, Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Superior Low Light Vision, +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently, and Resist Cold 10, all for only one level loss. With LA Buyoff, this can be very much worth the cost. The stealth bonuses are just scary on a Whisper Gnome (remember that racial bonuses stack), while the vision benefits are nice for Humans and Strongheart Halflings.
CatfolkRotW (LA +1) – They have very nice stat adjustments, useful skill modifiers, good speed, and natural armor. Unfortunately, the Level Adjustment makes them a mediocre choice at best. With LA Buyoff, they become much better, but there are still better choices out there. Dragonborning one of these isn’t a bad idea, since you keep the best parts (stats, speed) and tack on wings or blindsense or breath weapon.
GoliathRoS (LA +1) – Though they’re great for melee characters, goliaths are unfortunately pretty bad for rogues, which is a shame since they have great substitution levels. Powerful Build doesn’t really do anything for you besides a mild increase in damage, nor does the Strength boost. The Dex penalty, on the other hand, hurts a lot, as does the Level Adjustment. It’s possibly decent on some kind of Power Attacking charger rogue build, I guess, but most of the time you’ll want to skip this.
TieflingMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) (LA +1) – To first appearances, this is just a worse version of Lesser Tiefling. The only difference is that you're an outsider rather than a humanoid, and you gain LA +1. However, being an outsider can be very much worth the cost, depending on what you do with it. First of all, as an outsider, you gain martial weapon proficiency, which is nice. The best part, however, comes when you are under the effects of Alter Self or Polymorph. Since you are naturally an outsider, these spells allow you to change into outsider forms, which leads to some monstrously broken shenanigans. Depending on how far you're willing to go with the cheese, these can very well be worth the Level Adjustment.
Thri-KreenMM2 (LA +1, 2 RHD) – Make sure to select the non-psionic MM2 version rather than any of the psionic versions. The PLAs and PP are not worth the extra Level Adjustment in the XPH version, so the MM2 one is superior. They have some decent stat adjustments and natural armor, but the best part is that they have four arms, letting you use Multiweapon Fighting. Getting so many attacks may very well be worth the three lost levels, especially for combat-focused rogues who don't mind losing a few skill points. Better with LA-Buyoff, but usable even without.
MarrulurkSand (LA +1, 3 RHD) – These guys are ridiculously good; Small, amazing stat adjustments, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot as bonus feats, Poison Use, 2d6 Sneak Attack, +4 Hide, Move Silently, and Listen, Natural Armor, Darkvision and Low-Light Vision, Discriminating Hearing, and even proficiency with longbow! The Sneak Attack damage loss is almost completely made up, and you only lose skill points and a few potential class features by taking this. This is extremely good for ranged rogues, and is definitely worth considering despite the lost levels. With buyoff, they're nothing short of amazing, and they're worth it even without buyoff.
PixieMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) (LA +4) – Great stat adjustments, flight, Small size, and Greater Invisibility at will! Unfortunately, the huge level adjustment almost completely ruins it. Losing so much damage, attack, and skill points really hurts pretty much every build imaginable. At higher levels, it may be worthwhile enough to cancel the level loss, but by then most enemies can ignore your Greater Invisibility anyway. If your DM is handing out free LA, this can be very good, but otherwise LA +4 is just too high.
Class Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies – You have most of what you need, though upgrades certainly wouldn’t hurt. Martial Weapon Proficiency would help, netting you longbows over shortbows and kukris over shortsword. Heavier armors are an option if you get proficiencies, but that shuts down a few of your class features, lowers your max Dex to AC, and requires a bit more Str than otherwise would. May work on a build that only dips rogue.
Sneak Attack – The central piece of most rogue builds, and potentially very powerful if supported correctly. A lot of your abilities/feats/items will be involved in making this ability as powerful as it can be.
Trapfinding – Very important for skillmonkey rogues, and not bad even for combat-focused rogues. A common misconception is that rogues are for trapfinding, much like the misconception that clerics are for healing. While a rogue can be very useful to a party without trapfinding at all, it doesn’t take much to be proficient at finding traps; you don’t even need ranks in Disable Device if you’ve a Wand of Summon Monster I to spring them for you.
Evasion – Fireball-style attacks/spells/traps can be a common occurrence, and along with your good Reflex save, this is how you keep your d6 hit die from becoming too much of a liability when explosions occur.
Trap Sense – Completely and utterly worthless. Trade this away as soon as you can.
Uncanny Dodge – Useful, since your Dex is likely extremely high. This also allows you tricks such as taking the Total Defense Action constantly while outside of combat, giving you +4 dodge AC in surprise rounds and before you act (+6 with 5 ranks in Tumble).
Improved Uncanny Dodge – It’s an okay ability, but it likely won’t come up too often. Flanking doesn’t really happen that often for enemies, and enemy rogues aren’t that common unless your DM really likes rogues.
Special Abilities – This is a major reason to stay in rogue for more than 3 levels.
Crippling Strike – It’s a no-save debuff that can stack up after a few attacks. The Str damage is minor, but it can add up, so it's a good option for rogues that want to focus on debuffing. Other debuff feats like Staggering Strike can work well with it.
Defensive Roll – Useful, but since it’s only 1/day, it’s a bit limited. Gets much better once you take Savvy Rogue, however.
Improved Evasion – It’s a trap! With a good Reflex and high Dex, your Reflex saves will almost never fail anyway, so this is almost entirely useless. Don’t take it.
Opportunist – It’s fairly decent, since it’s basically a free sneak attack per round if you’ve someone to flank with you. Too bad it can’t be used more than 1/round on the same enemy.
Skill Mastery – Fantastic ability. Opposed check skills like Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen are much better when more consistent like this. Unfortunately doesn’t work for UMD, but it’s still a very useful ability.
Slippery Mind – A good way to not be dominated to kill the party. It’s a useful layer of protection, though spells can alleviate its usefulness at higher levels.
Bonus Feat – You can’t really go wrong with a bonus feat on a feat on a feat-starved class like the rogue.
Alternate Class Features
Replaces Trapfinding
AntiquarianCC – Since your Wisdom probably stinks, and your Knowledge: Religion no better, this doesn’t seem like a particularly useful tradeoff.
Changeling Rogue 1RoE – Changelings only. 10+Int skill points!!! That in itself is almost reason enough to take this; it adds up to 8 extra skill points if you take it 1st level, which is quite good. Don’t forget the free Knowledge skill for your Knowledge Devotion needs. Social Intuition is also just amazing for social rogues, giving you some very nice benefits with your skills. Almost always worth taking if you’re a changeling.
Kobold Rogue 1RotD – Kobolds only. Rapid Retreat doesn’t do much, but it’s free, so why not? The bonus to Search/Disable Device isn’t bad, and gives you a reason to max out Craft (Trapfinding) which can be handy occasionally. You don’t really lose anything, so you may as well take this substitution level if you’re a kobold anyway.
MimicEoE – Not a terrible ability in extremely social oriented campaigns. You’re better off with a Hat of Disguise, but Trapfinding doesn’t do much if you don’t intend to put points into Search, so there’s no reason not to.
Poison UseDotU – A pretty good trade off if you don’t intend to find traps. Poisons can be very useful if you make them yourself. Check the Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) for more info.
Replaces Evasion
Goliath Rogue 2RoS – Goliaths only. Mettle of Mountains is simply a fantastic ability. Fortitude is a very important save, and getting +4 to it just like that is awesome. You might want to get Evasion some other way later, like a Ring of Evasion or a dip in some other class, but it’s definitely worth taking this. Getting Improved Evasion for Fortitude might actually be worth it too, later, since that makes you nearly immune to many save-or-die spells like Finger of Death, Destruction, and Disintegrate.
Feign DeathEoE – This is very rarely of any use, especially not since the vast majority of monsters will eat you/tear you to pieces once you’re “dead” anyway. Evasion’s much better than this.
Spell ReflectionCM – This is a powerful ability, since you should have a very high touch AC and spells like Enervation or Ray of Enfeeblement can be devastating when turned upon their casters. This gets especially good if you have a high miss chance such as from Ring of Blinking or Child of Shadows stance. However, Evasion is very good as well, so it’s a hard choice. If you’re planning on multiclassing and getting Evasion again, definitely trade one of them away. If you are going to higher levels, you can consider taking this and getting Evasion back with a Special Ability. Overall, I think Evasion is more useful, but you can make a case for this.
Replaces Trap Sense
Changeling Rogue 3RoE – Changelings only. Unfortunately, while Minor Lore is useful and extra skill points nice, this just doesn’t compare to Penetrating Strike. Take this for extremely social rogues only, who don’t mind losing out on combat ability. Archers might also consider this over Death’s Ruin.
Death’s RuinCC – Not as good as Penetrating Strike. If you’re primarily ranged and/or you’re in a very undead-heavy campaign, this might be worthwhile to take over it, but for melee rogues, Penetrating Strike is usually better.
Golden Hand of Vergadain 3Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) – Dwarves only. If you want Track for some reason, this is the way to get it. But there are some much better things to trade Trap Sense for, so you should probably skip this.
Goliath Rogue 3RoS – Goliaths only. Better than Trap Sense, but that’s about it. There are much better things to trade Trap Sense for.
Halfling Rogue 3RotW – Halflings only. It’s an okay ability. Saves you on natural 1s and other low rolls, but otherwise doesn’t do that much compared to some of the other things you can trade Trap Sense for.
Kobold Rogue 3RotD – Kobolds only. Like the first kobold substitution level, this is strictly better than the standard rogue ability. However, now it’s much worse because it has to compete with everything else trying to replace Trap Sense. And fundamentally, it is still Trap Sense, so you’re best off just skipping this and replacing it with Penetrating Strike or something.
MimicEoE – See same entry under Trapfinding. Trading Trap Sense is worse because there are better things to trade Trap Sense for. Pretty much only take this for extremely social characters who don’t intend to go into combat much if at all.
Penetrating StrikeDung – This is one of the most important ACFs that melee rogues should always take. Unfortunately doesn’t help archery rogues, but it definitely goes a long way towards making Sneak Attack usable on everything in melee.
Planar Rogue 6PH – You can take this even if you replace Trap Sense at 3rd level, so it’s basically a free (though situational) ability as long as you qualify for planar substitution levels.
Quick FingersDung – About as useless as Trap Sense. Never worth taking, and certainly not over something like Penetrating Strike.
Rilkan Rogue 3MoI – Rilkans only. Actually not bad. Bardic Knowledge is fairly useful if you’re planning on staying in rogue, and a Bonus Feat, however bad one, is still nice to have. Possibly worth taking only for non-melee rogues, since Penetrating Strike is just necessary if you’re going to Sneak Attack in melee.
Spell SenseCM – Much better than Trap Sense and combos with Spell Reflection. Unfortunately, you have better things to trade Trap Sense for, or else this would be green. Unless Penetrating Strike or Death’s Ruin is not available or you know your DM really loves arcane casters using rays, pick one of those instead.
Replaces Uncanny Dodge
Disruptive AttackPHB2 – This is good for archery-focused rogues to whom Penetrating Strike is not an option, since you’ll still get to do something against elementals/oozes. Melee rogues might want it too if they’re struggling to hit, since if you hit them once, you can probably guarantee hitting them again for an entire round. Gets even better when there are more martial characters in the party. Solid choice, especially if you’re getting Uncanny Dodge again anyway from another class like assassin.
Replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge
Changeling Rogue 8RoE – Changelings only. Great substitution and always worth taking if you’re a changeling. Ignoring critical hits can save your life, and this will come in handy much more often than Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Goliath Rogue 8RoS – Goliaths only. Strictly worse than the Changeling substitution, but still probably worth taking since it’ll likely come up more often than Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Kobold Rogue 8RotD – Kobolds only. Cute, but it’s even more situational than Improved Uncanny Dodge. I’d skip this, though you do get +2 to Search and Disable Device so it’s not all bad. The choice is up to you.
Uncanny BraveryDM – Not bad in a dragon-heavy campaign. Improved Uncanny Dodge isn’t that great, so it’s no big loss. Avoid this if you’re not seeing dragons around every proverbial corner though.
Replaces Special Ability
BreathstealerDM – Horrible ability. You’d have to be in a really dragon-heavy campaign for this to be even remotely worthwhile.
Friend’s EvasionCC – Not really worthwhile. Special Abilities are too good to trade away, and your group really has to stand together closely for this to operate at all. You’d rather just spread out to avoid Fireballs altogether.
Halfling Rogue 10RotW – Halflings only. Fantastic ability for sniper types. If you’re going to be a sniper rogue, you should definitely consider Strongheart Halfling just to take this.
Planar Rogue 10PH – Turning Ethereal can be useful, but not 1/day for only 1 round, and not when it replaces a legitimately good ability. You’re way better off keeping a scroll of Swift Etherealness or Ethereal Jaunt on you if you happen to need it and skipping this.
Planar Rogue 16PH – This would be good, except you got yourself a Ring of Blinking six levels ago and have no need for this.
Rilkan Rogue 10MoI – Rilkans only. Amazing that it’s even worse than Improved Evasion. With your high Dex and good Ref save, the only time you’d ever want to reroll your Reflex save is if you roll a 1. And this doesn’t let you reroll 1s. At least Improved Evasion has a 1/20 chance of doing something. Completely worthless.
Frostfell Terrain MasteryFrost – Not bad if you’re in a campaign featuring a lot of frozen environments. Otherwise avoid.
Holy StalkerCC – Bad unless you’re in an undead-heavy campaign, but it’s decent there, basically being Craven for undead only. Won’t be able to take Crippling Strike, but you don’t want it in an undead campaign anyway.
Other Alternate Class Features
Golden Hand of Vergadain 2Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) – Dwarves only. The Favored Enemy ability is Faerun-specific and probably won’t do anything often even in Faerun. Granted, you’re not losing much, but unless you know you’re going to be facing that organization often, I’d skip it if I were you.
Golden Hand of Vergadain 6Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) – Dwarves only. Unless you really need Urban Tracking for some reason, skip this. Losing a base attack bonus for something as situational as this is a horrible idea.
Halfling Rogue 1RotW – Halflings only. If you’re going to use throwing weapons or slings anyway and you’re a Halfling, it’s a free 1d6 points of extra damage. Problem is, archer rogues are better off using bows or crossbows. It’s a valid option though.
Martial RogueUA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) – Replaces Sneak Attack with Fighter Bonus Feats. It’s an option if you just want a skilled martial character or you’re just dipping rogue for skills on a martial character. Factotum or swordsage is probably better for the former though.
Rilkan Rogue 1MoI – Rilkans only. A situational +2 to attack isn’t really worth sacrificing a dice of Sneak Attack in my opinion, though if you need the accuracy, it’s not terrible. This might be worth taking for someone just dipping rogue for skill points, but Martial Rogue is a better trade in that case.
Wilderness RogueUA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) – Obviously don’t take this if you intend on socializing. The skills aren’t anything special (unless you’re abusing Handle Animal), but gaining access to the ranger’s Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight can be very good for sneaky rogues. Unfortunately it only works in natural terrain, but it’s still quite nice if the campaign is an outdoorsy one.
Multiclassing
As non-casters without their own specific tiered abilities, rogues really get a lot of mileage out of multiclassing. Dipping certain classes can add quite a bit of flexibility or power to a rogue build, depending on what you’re looking for. However, dipping too much can lead to much fewer skill points or weaker Sneak Attacks, so be careful of what you’re doing and don’t go overboard unless you’re building a ‘dip’lomancer.
Also note that since Rogue 20 doesn't give you anything, you're almost always better off multiclassing at least one level somewhere unless your DM enforces multiclassing XP penalty and your race doesn't have favored class: rogue (and even then, a single level in a PrC is worth it).
FighterPHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm), UA – Fighter dips are, as always, very helpful to martial characters. The regular fighter provides much needed bonus feats, but the best dip comes from the Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) and Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variants found in UA. This lets you take fighter for one level, gain a dice of Sneak Attack, and still get 4+Int skill points that level. Since for rogues, Sneak Attack comes at odd levels, taking one level of fighter rather than the last level of rogue actually increases your Sneak Attack overall. A Rogue 19/Fighter 1 has 11d6 Sneak Attack while Rogue 20 has 10d6. Sneak Attack Thug fighter makes a great dip class on nearly any rogue build, and should be considered as such. The Hit and RunDotU variant is pretty attractive too, since you lose little and gain bonus initiative as well as damage. However, you can't take both it and the Thug variant, so consider whether the lost skill points is worth it. If you're only taking a one level dip, it probably is; otherwise, probably not.
SwashbucklerCW, CS – Swashbuckler is a fantastic multiclass for the rogue due to a single feat: Daring Outlaw. A build like Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw is a simple but effective melee rogue build, getting nearly full base attack, mostly d10 Hit Die, and 10d6 Sneak Attack. Swashbuckler nets you Weapon Finesse and Int to damage as well, which is fairly nice too. If you are going with a Daring Outlaw two-weapon fighting build, the Swift and DeadlyDotU ACF is worth considering, since you don’t trade away much and you get to play games where you full attack an enemy, move 10 ft away, and be out of range for their full attack. The Arcane StuntCM ACF is worth considering as well, giving you a few useful SLAs in place of Grace. The Shield of BladesPHB2 ACF is very much worth it for two-weapon fighters.
SwordsageToB – A fantastic class for one or two level dips, swordsage can provide you with both power and versatility if used right. You typically want to take it at 9th level, since you can pick up Assassin’s Stance along with a bushel of nice maneuvers and Weapon Focus, but that’s up to you. One level of swordsage equals 2d6 extra Sneak Attack, so it’s very much worth it. Other maneuvers and stances (Shadow Jaunt, Cloak of Deception, Distracting Embers, Island of Blades; see Maneuvers section below) are quite nice for rogues as well. Two levels gets you an extra maneuver and stance, as well as Wis to AC if you didn’t dump your Wisdom. If you’re only taking one level, try to take Unarmed Swordsage instead, since that gets you Improved Unarmed Strike which lets you take Snap Kick and you don’t actually lose anything. (See Maneuvers section below for controversy on gaining stances via ToB dips.)
BarbarianPHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm), UA, CC – A regular barbarian dip doesn’t really do all that much for rogues, but once you bring in ACFs, it can get really good. First of all, the Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) variant in UA is very good, giving you more AC/Reflex and an extra attack each round. It’s especially good for archer types. You’ll want to take Extra Rage some time so you can do it all day. The second ACF you want is the Spirit Totem ACF from CC. Take Fox Totem for the +4 to stealth skills, Eagle Totem for +4 vision skills, or Lion Totem for pounce on melee rogues. These two ACFs combined make barbarian a very good dip class for rogues.
Cloistered ClericPHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm), UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) – Dipping cleric is so awesome, it’s got its own handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0). Knowledge Devotion can easily get crazy good with Able Learner and a substitution level or two (see Feat section below for details) or Education. You can also pick up a myriad of options in Devotion feats and Domains, like swift-action movement (Travel Devotion), flight (Animal Devotion), summoned minions (Water Devotion), Slippery Mind (Liberation Domain), an illusionary clone/servant (Trickery Devotion), Improved Initiative (Time Domain), large bonus to attack or AC (Law Devotion), and Extra Turning to fuel your devotion feats (Undeath Domain).
MonkPHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm), UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) – With one level, you get an extra attack and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat (Sleeping Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger) variant in UA) as well as some nice saves at a cost of 1 bab and a level of Sneak Attack. Two levels gets you better saves, Improved Initiative (Sleeping Tiger), and Evasion again for trading away. You also get Improved Unarmed Strike which sets you up for taking Snap Kick, and you can take Carmendine Monk for Int to AC when unarmored. It can be quite a good dip if used right. The Invisible FistEoE ACF lets you become invisible for 1 round as an immediate action once per 4 rounds in place of gaining Evasion, which can be quite useful. Alternatively, the Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) school gets you Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush with a two level dip, which sets you up nicely for Shock Trooper, all without requiring any Strength. If you want to charge into battle and Sneak Attack with a Spiked Chain, this is the way to do it.
WizardPHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) – This is the best class to use in Unseen Seer builds, providing a very large spell list that synergizes extremely well with rogue. The various wizard variants (Immediate MagicPHB2, Specialization ACFsUA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm), Focused SpecialistCM) are all very nice for this type of build.
ScoutCAdv - Mostly for Swift Ambusher builds. Rogue 16/Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 1 gets a lot of skill points, full skirmish, almost full Sneak Attack, and the Travel Devotion to use both at once. Works decently well with archery builds.
BeguilerPHB2 – A great class that’s often seen as a replacement for a rogue, but can work well with rogues as well. Beguiler spells can be very useful for rogues, so a Rogue/Beguiler/Unseen Seer is not a bad option. Beguilers also get Trapfinding at first level, so that’s a way to replace it if you’re trading Trapfinding away.
FactotumDung – Often seen as a rogue replacement, and there’s some truth in that, though rogues aren’t obsolete now by any means. Factotum levels can be used to good effect in rogue builds too. It’s not the best dip, but if you have a high Int and you’re willing to spend on Font of InspirationsWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) a bit, it can be worthwhile. The third level ability is delicious, and you can essentially get Int to attack/damage/AC constantly if you’ve enough inspiration points. It takes investment, but it can be quite good.
SpellthiefCAdv – First level gives you an extra dice of Sneak Attack damage. It’s also an interesting option for Unseen Seer builds with Master SpellthiefCS and wizard or beguiler levels, but then you’re better off just skipping rogue.
Human ParagonUA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) – Not a bad choice to take for 2 or 3 levels, depending on your needs. Boosts your bad will save, nets you a permanent class skill, a Bonus Feat, and potentially even an ability boost if you take it that far. The 2nd and 3rd levels advance spellcasting, so it's most optimal if you've dipped a spellcasting class beforehand.
MarshalMH, BinderToM, WarlockCArc – I lumped all of these together because all three accomplish the same goal: diplomancy. Marshal gets you Cha to Diplomacy twice, Binder lets you take 10 and do all kinds of other stuff, while Warlock gives you a flat +6 with one level. If you want to optimize Diplomacy beyond the limits of human sanity, these are how you do it.
WarbladeToB – ToB dips are never bad. A single level gets you a point of bab, a boost to Fort and Reflex, three maneuvers, and a stance. Taking two levels gets you more of the above as well as Uncanny Dodge. If you do it at the right time, you can get some pretty nice maneuvers (Warblade at 9th can get you both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, for example; see maneuvers section below for more details). This also allows you much easier access to Stormguard Warrior (see Feats below).
CrusaderToB – Worse than the other ToB classes for rogue dipping, but there are some great Devoted Spirit maneuvers/stances (mostly stances) that you can nab with this. See maneuvers section for some nice choices.
ArdentCP – Best use here is for nabbing the Creation mantle and getting access to Psionic Minor Creation, which lets you create all the poison you want at no cost. Astral Construct is a very useful second power to learn as well. The second mantle can give you some useful abilities too, like +10 ft speed from Freedom mantle. This also gives you access to psionic feats.
Psion (Shaper)XPH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) – Good for much the same reason as Ardent, except you get a bonus psionic feat in place of the extra mantle.
Prestige Classes
Unfortunately, the vast majority of rogue-based prestige classes are just bad. The most important thing to look for in a PrC is good Sneak Attack advancement and abilities that synergize with what you plan on doing (whether it’s melee combat, ranged combat, or skillmonkeying). If it loses you Sneak Attack damage, it had better give something very worthwhile in return.
AssassinDMG (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) – A classic, and still pretty good too (or evil, as the case may be). Death Attack is a major trap that’s not worth caring about, and the bonus against poison is filler, but the rest is very good. Always stop at an odd level so you’re basically a level ahead on Sneak Attack. Hide in Plain Sight is the real gem here, but the spellcasting isn’t bad especially if you bring in spells from the Spell Compendium. You also gain Uncanny Dodge/Improved again, so trading the rogue ones away isn’t a bad move. The skill list has most of what you need too. A nice, well-rounded PrC.
AvengerWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) – Assassin, but good. Or, at least, non-chaotic. Take this if your DM won’t let you refluff assassin and won’t allow evil characters. Make sure to stop at 5th or 7th level so you can have 21 extra spells known. :smallwink:
Shadow Thief of AmnPGtF – Faerun-specific, but the requirements are very easy to achieve and the benefits are quite nice. It costs a crappy feat, but it gives a Bonus Feat back off of a small list, the best of which is Weapon Finesse (unless your DM is crazy and allows Leadership). You also get a free level of Sneak Attack as well as Uncanny Dodge, so you may as well take 3 levels of it. If you can, try to take the 3.0 Guild ThiefFRCS instead, since it’s pretty much exactly the same but without the crappy feat prereq (it’s also less obviously setting-specific).
Unseen SeerCM – Fantastic class that’s essentially a theurge class for rogue and arcane caster, but with real class features that are actually quite good. Rogue/Wizards and Rogue/Beguilers make great entries for this class, and you can get a lot of flexibility from arcane casting that way. Advanced Learning can nab you very nice combat Divination spells in the SpC (especially Hunter’s Eye, Golem Strike, Grave Strike, and Vine Strike; look into Persistent Spell). Assassin casting can qualify as well if you want to go for some really wacky build.
Arcane TricksterDMG (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) – The skill requirements suck, but with full Sneak Attack and arcane spellcasting progression, it’s certainly powerful. Could be a good way to top off an Unseen Seer build.
ChameleonRoD – The best jack of all class, the Chameleon can do nearly everything, just not all at once. Chameleons can be really powerful, but Factotum tends to be a better entry class, though rogue certainly isn’t a bad one. It’s worth a look if you want a class that can do something different each day.
Invisible BladeCW – Used to be a good way to get Sneak Attack by feinting as free action, but unfortunately errata says that you can only do it once per round, and that pretty much ruins its effectiveness. The prereq feats suck, but you do advance Sneak Attack quickly (even if it’s only for daggers). Unfettered Defenses gets you nice AC when unarmored, especially when together with monk and Carmendine Monk. It’s also full bab, and feinting can at least make it likely to get one Sneak Attack a round when necessary. Just don’t focus on feinting too much though, since that’s still a major trap.
Nightsong EnforcerCAdv – Not a bad choice if you’re looking to gain some bab. You can get in easily at 8th level (only having to spend a feat on Improved Initiative). The first level is essentially just free Sneak Attack, so if you don’t mind taking Improved Initiative (Time Domain on Cloistered Cleric works), there’s basically no reason not to take it on most builds. Ability Training is decent and you get a nice bab boost without losing Sneak Attack by taking it to 4th level. Flanking Teamwork isn’t worthless, and Opportunist is an extra Special Ability, so taking it up to 7th level isn’t too bad, though you are losing a level of Sneak Attack. You don’t want to go all the way to 10th though.
ExemplarCAdv – This is for the really skill-focused rogues. The requirements are pretty easy. If you take three levels of Sneak Attack Fighter, you can take the Zhentarim SoldierWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) ACF at 3rd level to get Skill Focus (Intimidate) at a cost of 2 skill points. Alternatively, you can get Skill Focus (Intimidate) for 3,000 gp at the Otyugh HoleCS. A one level dip is great for skillmonkey rogues due to the +4 to one skill and Skill Mastery. There’s no real point to going further; Factotum dips are probably better if you want more skill bonuses or need the skill list.
ShadowdancerDMG (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) – A one level dip here works well for stealth-focused rogues. It’s really costly in terms of feats, but Hide in Plain Sight is worth it if you really want it. The second level is pretty nice too, gaining back Evasion and Uncanny Dodge and getting Darkvision, but it’s not necessary if you didn’t trade them away and/or already have Darkvision. Also, know that you can gain Mobility from the MobilityMIC armor special ability, though your DM might not allow temporary bonuses to qualify for prereqs.
Skullclan HunterMH – A three level dip here isn’t too bad, especially in undead heavy campaigns. You need a cloistered cleric dip beforehand, but that’s not bad at all. In total, you’re losing two levels of Sneak Attack (including cleric dip) but you gain the ability to deal full damage to undead as well as a nice boost to will saves. If it’s a very undead-themed campaign, six levels of the class isn’t too bad an idea. You’ll lose another level of Sneak Attack but you get a permanent Protection from Evil as well as ability to ignore undead DR. Any further isn’t really worth it though.
Spellwarp SniperCS – Can lead to some interesting builds if you want to focus on rays. Manufactured weapons deal more damage due to iteratives, but rays have their own advantages. The class has some cool abilities, and you can do some very creative things with this with a bit of effort (*cough*Legacy Champion*cough*). A list of good Spellwarp Sniper spells can be found here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870226/Spellwarp_Sniper_List_of_Handy_Spells).
Stonedeath AssassinRoS – If you’re already a goblinoid and you often find yourself underground, this isn’t a bad PrC. Entry is easy, you don’t actually lose Sneak Attack, you get a few neat tricks that are useful underground, you regain Trapfinding if you’ve traded it away, and you never ever take the fifth level.
Skills
Class Skills
Appraise (Int) – Could be useful depending on your DM. Tends to be better early on than late. At high levels, items are more likely magical and it doesn’t cost much to have things professionally appraised. If you’ve extra skill points, it doesn’t hurt to put them here, but I tend to find most rogues I build typically don’t have the points for it.
Balance (Dex) – 5 ranks here is very nice to have. Without them, you become flat-footed while Balancing. Not absolutely necessary due to Uncanny Dodge, but still nice to have the points. Skip it if you’ve none to spare.
Bluff (Cha) – Great skill for all rogues, but especially social rogues. I find it very useful all the time, but then, I tend to lie a lot. At least 5 ranks here are often worth it since you get a synergy bonus to nearly everything, but you should definitely consider maxing it.
Climb (Str) – Terrible waste of time. You can replicate this much better with a 2nd level spell like Spider Climb or Levitate, not to mention Fly. Only worth considering if the campaign starts at 1st level and you’re allowed retraining later.
Craft (Int) – If you’re a kobold, you probably want Craft (Trapmaking) at least equal to your class level so you can enjoy the benefits of being koboldy from your racial sub levels. Trapmaking can be useful as well if you’re the creative sort. The best Craft skill, however, is Craft (Poisonmaking). Check the Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) if you’re interested.
Decipher Script (Int) – Five ranks here is good for the synergy bonus to Use Magic Device on scrolls. Don’t bother taking more than that.
Diplomacy (Cha) – Great skill that can be horribly cheesy if abused. Social rogues obviously want to max this and more, while other rogues might even consider putting points here just because it’s so useful. Avoid if your DM doesn’t like non-combat solutions though.
Disable Device (Int) – Pretty useful for skillmonkeys, but not as absolutely necessary as most people would think. You can disable most traps with careful applications of Summon Monster I and Big Stupid Fighter. If you just don’t have the points, don’t bother taking this and compensate with items.
Disguise (Cha) – Potentially useful and a fun skill, but you can easily get massive bonuses to this via spells like Alter Self and Disguise Self (achieved with a Hat of Disguise). Don’t max this unless you’re playing some kind of spymaster or something.
Escape Artist (Dex) – Not really all that helpful. There are better ways to get out of grapples (Freedom of Movement effect or Anklets of Translocation) and you won’t succeed on Escape Artist against anything competent at grappling anyway without a lot of investment. If your DM likes to capture the party, getting +15 here could be good so you can take 20 and get out of masterwork manacles, but that’s too situational for most campaigns.
Forgery (Int) – A few points isn’t bad in socially oriented campaigns. You don’t need a lot of it, since forgery is opposed by forgery checks and nobody puts points into forgery. However, in most campaigns you’re better off skipping it since this is the very definition of a situational skill.
Gather Information (Cha) – Useful for social rogues. Maxing it is probably not worth it, but a few points here won’t hurt. Depends on the campaign.
Hide (Dex) – The bread and butter of the vast majority of rogues. Typically, you want this pretty darn high so you can sneak around without effort. You almost always want to max this skill.
Intimidate (Cha) – While fantastic for other types of builds, rogues don’t tend to make very good fearmongers. In fact, thanks to Craven, rogues are often on the other side of the fear. If you’re interested in fear effects though, see the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0).
Jump (Str) – Don’t bother with this unless you’re using a lot of Tiger Claw maneuvers or you’re going for extreme tumbling and need the synergy bonus. You’ll want flight in later levels and that replaces the need for this entirely.
Knowledge (local) (Int) – Can be decent if you’re in a humanoid campaign and you’re taking Knowledge Devotion, but otherwise this is a very weak Knowledge skill. After all, I certainly hope your DM isn’t making you roll Knowledge to know what dwarves are. Put one point here so you can do it trained and ignore it after.
Listen (Wis) – Lower on the totem pole than Spot, but still very useful. Max this if at all possible. Your perception skills are what keeps you from getting showered full of arrows in the surprise round, so don’t neglect them.
Move Silently (Dex) – Just like Hide, you pretty much always want this as high as possible. This may be even more important, depending on access to Invisibility.
Open Lock (Dex) – This is not a very important skill to have. You’re much better off using a Chime of Opening, a Wand of Knock, an adamantine dagger, or a Str check if you’ve levels in Factotum. This may be necessary at lower levels, however, when you don’t have access to magic items. Best used with retraining so you can switch those skill points around later.
Perform (Cha) – You’re not a bard. Move along.
Profession (Wis) – You have better ways of making money, typically involving stabbing people. Move along.
Search (Int) – The most important skill for trapfinding rogues, you’ll probably want this as high as you can get. Skip it if you’re not going for trapfinding, max it if you are.
Sense Motive (Wis) – Pretty important for social rogues. You don’t want to be lied to while talking to someone, and this ensures that you’re not. If you’re a social rogue, at least put 5 ranks here for the synergy bonus to Diplomacy, and seriously consider maxing it out.
Sleight of Hand (Dex) – Useful but not necessary. Put a point here so you can do it trained, but otherwise ignore. You can lift things as free actions at DC 40, which is hilarious if you get it that high, but typically it’s not worth putting more than one point here unless you want to focus on this.
Spot (Wis) – Just like Listen, you want this as high as possible.
Swim (Str) – Spells like Swim and Alter Self obsoletes this skill, so don’t bother.
Tumble (Dex) – This is very helpful at keeping you alive in melee. You usually want to have enough ranks to make DC 15 or 25 easily so you can avoid AoOs all day, but there are rules in OA that may make you want to max this. You can ignore more falling damage, stand up from prone as a free action, and even make 10-ft steps with high enough Tumble DCs. It’s difficult, but potentially worthwhile if you go for it.
Use Magic Device (Cha) – Can I make this any bluer? Use Magic Device is hands down the most powerful skill in the game, and you want to max this skill no exception. There are plenty of great wands/scrolls/other magic items that you would not mind using, so definitely put some points here.
Use Rope (Dex) – Situationally useful. You typically don’t need too many ranks here, but it’s helpful. If you’ve extra points to spend, a few here won’t hurt.
Other Possible Class Skills
Handle Animal (Cha) – A very abusable skill if you’re out to do that, but otherwise not very useful for you. Gotten from Wilderness RogueUA variant.
Knowledge: Any (Int) – Get this from Changeling Substitution LevelsRoE. Pick a knowledge skill to shore up your group’s weaknesses, or just point a point in a random one and be trained in it. Alternatively, dip cloistered cleric and use this to fuel Knowledge Devotion.
Knowledge: Dungeoneering (Int) – Gotten from Kobold Substitution LevelsRotD. Put one point in here, or use to fuel Knowledge Devotion.
Knowledge: Geography (Int) – From Wilderness RogueUA variant. Not the most useful knowledge skill by far, but there’s no point not putting a single rank here just in case.
Knowledge: Nature (Int) – Fantastic knowledge skill that covers a very wide variety of enemies. Max this if you have points, or just point a single rank here. Also fuels Knowledge Devotion. Gotten from Wilderness RogueUA variant.
Knowledge: Planes (Int) – One of the best knowledge skills. Put either as many points as you can or only one point if you’ve none to spare. Could be good for Knowledge Devotion. You only get this from Planar Rogue Substitution LevelsPH.
Ride (Dex) – I have yet to see a good mounted rogue archer build, though I guess it’s theoretically possible. Gotten from Wilderness RogueUA.
Speak Languages (None) – Gotten from Rilkan Substitution LevelsMoI. If you really want certain languages, may as well take them, but Comprehend Languages is a 1st level spell.
Survival (Wis) – Gain this from Wilderness RogueUA, Golden Hands of VergadainWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) or Goliath Substitution LevelsRoS. Survival’s not the most useful skill, so only take it if you have PrC prereqs that you want to fulfill or something.
The Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) also offers trading wilderness-oriented class skills for more city-based ones. By default, all of these are already on your class list, but theoretically you can take the Wilderness Rogue variant and then trade out the new skills for their original ones, though that’s a bit… needlessly complicated.
Cross-Class Skills
AutohypnosisXPH - Useful Swiss army knife skill, with abilities for lots of different situations. Unfortunately, Wis is probably a dump stat for you, and skill points are pretty tight already, so you likely won't have room for this. If you do get this as a class skill somehow (such as via Factotum dip), a few points here isn't a bad idea.
Iaijutsu FocusOA - Despite being a cross-class skill, you might actually consider taking ranks in this. It's free damage from a skill check, and despite the harsh prereqs to activate it, free damage is free damage. Though Iaijutsu builds can be incredibly powerful if done right, rogue isn't the way to do it, so don't invest too much into this if you want an actual rogue build. Works best with Factotum dips to get this as a class skill.
Use Psionic DeviceXPH - Not as useful as Use Magic Device, and not a class skill besides, but you might consider a few points here if your Cha isn't bad. There are a lot of nice effects psionic powers can do that magic can't replicate, so this has its uses. Again, best used if you get it as a class skill somehow, such as with a Factotum or Shaper dip.
Skill TricksCS
Acrobatic Backstab – Move and make a single Sneak Attack against an enemy. Usefulness is unfortunately limited since you can’t full attack them with it.
Assume Quirk – If you’re going to use disguise a lot, this isn’t a bad trick to take.
Back on Your Feet – Quite nice if your DM uses trip attacks a lot.
Clarity of Vision – Fairly useful. Spotting invisible enemies for free is nice, especially if you’ve a wizard nearby ready to Glitterdust the enemies you point out.
Clever Improviser – Terrible; you’re still basically down -2 since you’re not using Masterwork tools. Way too situational.
Collector of Stories – Fantastic trick if you’ve a bunch of Knowledge skills with one point in them. Arguably works with Knowledge Devotion, but it’s worth taking even if it doesn’t.
Corner Perch – Offers a cool image, but doesn’t really do much. Also requires 8 ranks in Climb, which you definitely should not have.
Easy Escape – If you’re actually maxing out Escape Artist to guard against grapples, this is worth it for negating enemies’ size modifiers so that it’s actually possible to escape from them. Only works 1/encounter, so be wary of depending on this.
Escape Attack – Again, if you’re maxing Escape Artist, there’s no reason not to take this.
Extreme Leap – Worthless.
Group Fake Out – If you’re taking Invisible Blade, you may as well take this. Potentially lets you full Sneak Attack if there’s enough enemies around you to feint + Sneak Attack them all. On the other hand, that means that you’re surrounded by enemies.
Hidden Blade – Requires Quick Draw, so no.
Leaping Climber – Requires two different dump skills, so no.
Listen To This – Way too situational, and again, Comprehend Languages is a 1st level spell.
Mosquito’s Bite – Requires 12 ranks in Sleight of Hand, and I have difficulty imagining a situation where I’d actually want to do this.
Nimble Charge – It’s decent if you’re charging into battle all the time.
Nimble Stand – Like Back on Your Feet, great if your DM likes tripping.
Opening Tap – Requires 12 ranks in Open Lock, and is terrible besides. No.
Point it Out – Why can’t you just describe to them what you saw? And they have to be really blind if they can’t see something when you point it out without this pointless skill trick.
Quick Escape – Again, if you’re investing in Escape Artist anyway, it doesn’t hurt to take this.
Quick Swimmer – Worthless.
Second Impression – Very nice if you’re planning on disguising a lot. A second chance to not get your cover blown is quite helpful indeed.
Shrouded Dance – Since this grants you concealment, you can use it to Hide without anything to Hide behind. Probably goes against intent, but works fine as written. Unless you have Hide in Plain Sight, you still can’t Hide if someone’s observing you though.
Social Recovery – Great trick for social rogues so that a single bad roll doesn’t ruin everything, though it’s probably not too helpful if you took the changeling substitution and can take 10.
Slipping Past – Another skill trick that’s way too situational to bother with.
Spot the Weak Point – Not horrible for ranged rogues, especially sniper types that can use it to set up for a nice surprise round. Pretty limited otherwise though.
Sudden Draw – Requires Quick Draw. Next!
Timely Misdirection – Useful for Invisible Blades, who can feint as free actions. Don’t bother otherwise though.
Tumbling Crawl – You don’t want to be crawling for any reason. Do yourself a favor and take Nimble Stand instead.
Twisted Charge – Fantastic trick for melee rogues, especially if you dipped barbarian for pounce. Makes charging much easier.
Up the Hill – Another one that’s too situational and requires bad skills.
Walk the Walls – Cool, but not worth taking, especially not at a cost of putting points in Climb.
Wall Jumper – As above.
Whip Climber – As awesome an image as that would be, no.
Feats
Melee
Adaptable FlankerPHB2 – Bad. Dip swordsage or take Martial Stance for Island of Blades if you really want something like this.
Bounding AssaultPHB2 – Spring Attack is bad, and this doesn’t make it any better.
Confound the Big FolkRotW – The best maneuver here is Knee Striker, which is a good way to get off full Sneak Attacks without anyone else’s help. This gets really good when combined with something like Travel Devotion, which lets you move in and out of an enemy’s square while full attacking every round. Even more awesome with Shrink Person, either UMD’d from wands or cast from a friendly wizard, since you can do it to Medium creatures too. Unsteady Footing can also be useful occasionally, if you’ve a very high Dex and there are a bunch of melee allies around ready to spring. Only for Small races like Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes.
Daring OutlawCS – A single feat that redeems an entire class (Swashbuckler), this singular feat gains you 19/20 bab, good Fort saves, and d10 hit die. Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 is a simple but effective build to maximize this feat’s potential, though you can definitely benefit from further multiclassing if you’re willing to get more complex.
Dragon TailRotD - It's a free natural attack, which means more Sneak Attack. If you're dragonblooded and you've a slot for this at 1st level, you may as well take it.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)PHB – This is an alternative combat style to the typical TWF or ranged, where you basically wield a spiked chain and Power Attack things to death. You can Finesse and Power Attack with the chain, and the reach is very nice for flanking purposes. It’s an interesting combat style at the very least. A monk dip (see multiclassing section above) can get you Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush without any Str requirements, and you can nab Shock Trooper for a pretty scary charger that way.
Greater Two-Weapon FightingPHB – Like its predecessors, take this as soon as you can.
Improved FeintPHB – It’s a trap! Feinting is a terrible tactic to use in combat, move action or no. You can’t even use it while full attacking. Do not take this. If you really want to feint, Invisible Blade does it much better, though the errata still kept that from actually being good.
Improved RapidstrikeDraco - Absolutely crazy with Dragonwrought kobolds. Gets you a boatload of extra natural attacks with those claws, though you need a good BAB for this. Make sure to take Multiattack and possibly Improved Multiattack so those natural weapons can actually hit (or just use Wraithstrike).
Improved Two-Weapon FightingPHB – It’s a feat tax, but you have to take it nonetheless. You can’t just say “no” to extra attacks.
Mage SlayerCArc – A great feat on its own. With any sort of reach, this feat can allow you to give enemy mages a very bad day. What’s even better about it is that it lets you qualify for Pierce Magical Concealment.
Melee Weapon MasteryPHB2 – Not that bad for a fighter feat. You pick up Weapon Focus with swordsage dip, so this just requires Weapon Specialization. With Thug and Sneak Attack fighter, a five level fighter dip is less bad for you than for most characters, so this isn’t too hard to get. It’s decent, but not necessary if you can’t spare the feat or levels.
MultiattackMM - If you've a bunch of secondary natural weapons for some reason, this provides a nice bonus to attack for them. Goes well with the Rapidstrike line.
Rapid BlitzPHB2 – See Bounding Assault.
RapidstrikeDraco - For Dragonwrought kobolds. By itself, it's only decent. It provides an extra attack, but the attack bonus isn't great. However, this lets you take Improved Rapidstrike, which is just sick. Goes best when used with unarmed strikes as primary attacks (since they don't take up your claws).
Shadow BladeToB – Dex to damage. It makes you less MAD and adds a bit more to every hit. Not necessary by any means, but nice to have. You should be in Assassin’s Stance most of the time anyway, so the requirements are easy to fulfill.
Snap KickToB – It’s another extra attack, and you really can’t have too many of these. It requires either dipping monk or unarmed swordsage though; it’s not worth having to take Improved Unarmed Strike otherwise.
Spring AttackPHB – Horribad. You don’t get to full attack, and you don’t even get to do any other type of standard action. Not worth one feat, much less three!
Staggering StrikeCAdv – Potentially very useful versus boss monsters and even just melee brutes. It essentially Slows them, preventing full attacks each round that they’re affected by it. Can be good even against casters, since it forces them to choose between staying next to your or casting a spell. Allows a Fort save, but it’s based on damage dealt which can easily be through the roof, and you get multiple attacks so more chances to fail. Great feat for melee rogues.
Stormguard WarriorToB – Well, it’s certainly not a traditional rogue feat by any means, but this is an alternate way to get good damage, especially against things immune to Sneak Attack. With TWF, you’re getting a lot of attacks some of which have very low to-hit, so this could be a way to put them to good use. Requires taking Martial Study a few times or (more likely) a warblade dip.
Surprising RiposteDotU – If this didn’t require two bad feats, it might have actually been worthwhile to use with Invisible Blade. Unfortunately, the prereqs kill it, though it does have some potential since it lets you feint and Sneak Attack for a full round.
Two-Weapon FightingPHB – Still the best bet for rogues to deal damage, despite how feat-intensive it is. If you’re a melee rogue, you’d better have a good reason not taking this.
Weapon FinessePHB – Pretty much a necessity for melee rogues. You want to dump Str. This is how you do it.
Ranged
Able SniperRotW – Not a bad feat for a sniper. Attack bonuses are always nice, and you need something to negate the massive -20 to Hide after attacking. Best used with Halfling Rogue 10 Substitution LevelRotW.
Crossbow SniperPHB2 – This is the only reason you’d ever want to use crossbows, and it’s a fairly good one. Generally, staying far away is good for you since that keeps you from being monster meat, so this is quite nice for ranged rogues. The extra damage is nice too. Best used with Hand Crossbow Focus since it saves you a feat.
Deadeye ShotPHB2 – Most of your damage comes only because of full attacks. If you don’t get off a full attack, you barely deal damage. This does not enable you to make full attacks.
Greater ManyshotXPH – Manyshot isn’t nearly as good as just full attacking anyway, so this isn’t worth taking.
Hand Crossbow FocusDotU – Quite a nice value feat if you’re going for a crossbow build. Sets you up for Crossbow Sniper too. Auto-take for any rogue focusing on crossbows. Remember that you can dual wield hand crossbows if your DM lets you reload them somehow.
Improved Precise ShotPHB – Prereqs are tough, but if you have room for it, take it. Negating cover and concealment is very useful, and I’m sure your allies will appreciate you not hitting them in grapples.
Improved Rapid ShotCW – Not worth taking since it requires Manyshot for some stupid reason. Between Woodland Archer and Splitting, you shouldn’t have any trouble hitting.
ManyshotPHB – Not worthwhile, since the penalties are huge and you want to be full attacking anyhow. You can’t even Sneak Attack with it unless you take another feat.
Point Blank ShotPHB – Crappy feat by itself, but prereq for every archery feat out there, so you have to take it regardless.
Precise ShotPHB – Important for any rogue that wants to use ranged weapons as their primary means of fighting. Also lets you use Splitting weapons, which is just awesome.
Ranged Weapon MasteryPHB2 – As with Melee Weapon Mastery. Weapon Focus in this case comes from Hand Crossbow Focus. Note that Ranged Weapon Mastery is better than the equivalent melee one because archers tend to have more attacks due to Splitting.
Rapid ReloadPHB – If you want to focus on crossbows, this is probably necessary. If available, I’d recommend Hand Crossbow Focus over this, since that saves you a feat getting Crossbow Sniper (which is the only reason you’d want to use crossbows).
Rapid ShotPHB – Archer rogues definitely take this. It’s a free attack, and those are awesome.
Shot on the RunPHB – As bad for ranged as Spring Attack is for melee. Don’t take it.
Swift AmbusherCS - Multiclass feat for Scout/Rogue. Overall, I'd say Swift Hunter works better for scouts while Daring Outlaw works better for rogues, but Swift Ambusher can make for some highly damaging precision archer builds with lots of skill points. See builds section below.
Woodland ArcherRotW – A must have feat for archer rogues of any type. Adjust for Range is just awesome and combos with Splitting weapons very well, making it much easier for you to hit with all your attacks. Pierce the Foliage is quite helpful before you get Improved Precise Shot. Moving Sniper is really good for sniper types as well. All in all, a very solid feat.
Both
Able LearnerRoD – A necessity to maintain class skills while multiclassing. This is one of the major reasons why humans make fantastic rogues.
Animal DevotionCC – Highly versatile feat, letting you 1/day gain super speed, superhuman strength, a poisonous bite attack, or flight for 1 minute. Cloistered Cleric dip can get this for free along with the Turn Undead to use it multiple times per day. Excellent.
Blind-FightPHB – Useful if you've nothing better to take or are core-only, but usually not worth a feat. Best use is for qualifying for Pierce Magical Concealment.
Carmendine MonkCoV – If you’re dipping monk, you should consider taking this. Getting Int to AC can be really worthwhile, especially if you’re stacking Invisible Blade levels on top of that for essentially Int to AC twice. Can’t use armor with it though.
CravenCoR – Possibly the most important feat for rogues in 3.5. This lets you deal extra damage equal to your character level while Sneak Attacking. It applies fully even if you deal partial damage due to Penetrating Strike. Take this as soon as you can and never look back.
DarkstalkerLoM – Great feat for stealthy rogues, and pretty much necessary if you want your Hide skill to be worth anything at higher levels. Makes you effectively immune to easy detection by alternative means (aka Blindsense et Al.) so basically everyone has to play fair and make Spot checks.
Deadly PrecisionXPH – Not really worth it. If you do the math, this averages out to less than 5 extra damage with a 10d6 Sneak Attack. It isn’t horrible if you’re looking to wring every point of damage you can, but you can do better with your feats.
DodgePHB – Terrible, but often a prereq for a lot of things. If possible and if you must, take Distracting Embers with your swordsage dip and take Desert Wind DodgeToB instead, and replace this with something better.
Dragonfire StrikeDM – The split in color depends on what your DM allows with the feat. By strict RAW, all it does is change your Sneak Attack damage to fire and add 1d6. This does not bypass Sneak Attack immunity, so the only point is to add a situational 1d6 (and it is situational, because fire is the most resisted energy around). In that case, it's probably not worth taking. However, a very reasonable houserule (and possibly the intent of the feat) is to change the damage to fire so that it bypasses normal Sneak Attack immunity, trading one set of immune enemies for another. In that case, it becomes a far better choice, making it much easier to deal with undead, constructs, elementals, and especially plants. You can also take Dragon Heritage, choosing Battle Dragon to convert this damage to sonic damage instead, which is hardly ever resisted. It’s extremely feat intensive, but potentially very worthwhile, especially for ranged builds that can’t use Penetrating Strike, as long as your DM allows the feat to work on those normally immune to Sneak Attacks.
Dragon HeritageRotD – Worthless on its own and requires Dragontouched or a dip in sorcerer/dragonfire adept. The awesome thing comes in picking Battle Dragon, and then taking Dragonfire Strike to turn all of your Sneak Attack damage into sonic damage, which is hardly ever resisted. Only worth taking if your DM allows Dragonfire Strike to bypass Sneak Attack immunity.
DragontouchedDM – Only use for this is to qualify for Dragon Heritage and then Dragonfire Strike. Worthless on its own.
EducationPGtF or ECS – Gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills permanently. Make sure to grab the PGtF version if you can for +2 to two Knowledge skills instead of +1. Combines very well with Knowledge Devotion.
Extend SpellPHB - Pretty useful on its own for Unseen Seers, letting you Extend buff spells to last all day. Better in a Metamagic Rod, however. The real treat is letting you qualify for Persistent Spell. You can get this for free from the Planning Domain.
Extra RageCW – If you’re dipping barbarian and getting Whirling Frenzy, definitely take this at some point so you can frenzy every battle.
Font of InspirationWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) – For anyone taking levels in Factotum. You generally want to take this around three or four times so you can add Int to attack/damage/AC for basically the entire battle, but any more than that tends to lead to wasted points.
Improved InitiativePHB – Always good filler material if you’ve feats to spare (though you shouldn’t). Much better in core only since there are few decent feats there. You can get this for free from Time Domain.
Knowledge DevotionCC – Free attack and damage that scales with you as you level. With support, this is a very viable means of dealing damage. Best used with cloistered cleric dips. Even better for archery than for melee since you get better returns due to more attacks from Splitting.
Law DevotionCC – Another great Devotion feat. This one gets you either a rather large bonus to attack or AC once per day or more if you’ve Turn Undead to spend. Something else a cleric dip can get you.
Martial StanceToB – Highly useful, especially for picking up Assassin’s Stance (though Swordsage dip may be better for that). See Maneuvers and Stances section below for details on your selection.
Martial StudyToB – There are some great low-level maneuvers for rogues in ToB. See Maneuvers and Stances section below.
Master ManipulatorPHB2 – A bit too situational for my tastes, but some people like this sort of thing. Can be helpful for more socially-oriented campaigns.
Master of PoisonsDotU – Great for poison users if you’re into that. You can/should retrain this at higher levels once enemies are more likely to be immune. See the Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) to learn more.
MobilityPHB – Terrible. If it’s a prereq, suck it up and take it, but otherwise just move on. Note: You can get Mobility via the MobilityMIC armor special ability.
Obtain FamiliarCArc – Not bad for Unseen Seer builds. Familiars can be very handy, at the very least giving you +2 to most of your skills. See the Familiar’s Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870010/The_Familiars_Handbook_--_2007) for details. If allowed, get a hummingbird familiar from Dragon 323 which gives you +4 to initiative.
Persistent SpellCArc - Amazing feat for Unseen Seers, letting you Persist a wide variety of buffs like Hunter's Eye, Grave Strike, Golem Strike, Sniper's Eye, etc. It's good by itself, but it's even better if you can take Easy Metamagic or Practical Metamagic to reduce its spell level adjustment.
Pierce Magical ConcealmentCArc – Its normal effect is awesome enough, letting you ignore enemy wizards with Blur or Displacement effects. However, the best part about this feat is that it lets you ignore the miss chance from your own Blink effects, making your own Ring of Blinking completely beneficial to you. If Blink is your primary means of denying Dex to AC for enemies (which is quite possible for ranged builds), this is almost a necessity. However, it does require Mage Slayer, which is worthless for ranged rogues, and Blind-Fight, which is nothing special, but this is worth the cost.
Practiced SpellcasterCArc – If you’re taking levels in beguiler or wizard, this is invaluable in keeping your caster level high despite multiclassing. Also makes up for Divination Spell Power from Unseen Seer.
Quick DrawPHB – Terrible feat that you can replicate with 300 gp (Least Crystal of ReturnMIC). This is bad even in core.
Sacred StrikeBoED – Well, it does require you to be a goody do-gooder, but if you’re willing to put up with that and most of the enemies you fight are evil, this provides some pretty good returns on damage.
Savvy RogueCS – Pretty good if you have enough rogue levels to get at least two or three Special Abilities. If you have Penetrating Strike, this doesn’t do much for Crippling Strike, though it’s still useful if you are attacking without a flank for some reason (and is much better for archers). The extra uses of Defensive Roll certainly make that ability significantly better. Improved Evasion still sucks. Opportunist would be fantastic were it not for the caveat that you can do it to each creature once per round; with the caveat, it’s only mildly better. This is very good for Skill Mastery, since you’re basically getting +2 to your most important skills. The boost to Slippery Mind is nice, but nothing to write home about. Overall, a good feat if you’ve room for it, but not absolutely necessary.
Sickening StrikeDotU – One of the better ambush feats. This one is basically a no save debuff at a cost of 1d6 points of damage; useful, especially if you use poisons or have allies that can take advantage of the creature’s reduced saves. Even better if stacked with Crippling Strike or fear effects for further debuff.
Telling BlowPHB2 - Not a great way to achieve Sneak Attacks, since it's far from reliable. At best, you've ~25% chance to activate this, so if you rely on this as a primary means of Sneak Attacking, you're not dealing credible damage on 3/4ths of your attacks. This does provide a means for Sneak Attacking in situations containing concealment, but you're better off going with some backup plan in those situations like activating wands or using magic items rather than praying for a crit.
Terrifying StrikeDotU – Like Sickening Strike, a useful no save debuff. Doesn’t cost much damage, and combos with Sickening Strike for -4 to attack and saves. Unfortunately doesn’t stack with other fear effects, but still pretty good. Fear is easy to get immunities for though, so watch out about that.
Titan FightingRoS – Great feat for Whisper Gnomes, and an actual good reason to take Dodge. You basically increase your Dodge AC bonus to +4 against pretty much anyone. Very nice boost to AC.
Travel DevotionCC – An extremely helpful feat for all melee fighters, Travel Devotion lets you move each turn as a swift action (to get closer for full attack or move in to flank) and still full attack every round. Best used with cloistered cleric dip so you can fuel with Turn Undead. Combines with Confound the Big Folk nicely.
Trickery DevotionCC – A feat that rewards creativity above all else. It can scout, spring traps, distract enemies, and do whatever you come up with. Unfortunately the errata nerfed it so that it doesn’t get free copies of your wands/scrolls/etc, but it’s still useful if you can come up with things for it to do, and flanks for you as necessary at mid to high levels. Again, best used with cloistered cleric dip to use multiple times per day.
Underfoot CombatRotW – An easy way to get extra AC against Large or larger enemies for Whisper Gnomes and Strongheart Halflings. Shrink Person goes hand in hand with this. Also used to qualify for Confound the Big Folk.
Undo ResistanceFC2 - Can be quite good at higher levels, particularly if you've offensive casters in the party that would like the boost. Best in outsider-oriented campaigns since outsiders tend to have SR. Also gives your own spells (from wands/scrolls) an actual chance of penetrating enemy SR at higher levels. However, it does require you to use a cold iron weapon, which is very expensive to enchant (not a problem if your caster friends can cast Greater Magic Weapon though).
Water DevotionCC – Serious points for coolness for this one. The summoned elementals aren’t that powerful, but they make decent tanks and of course they can flank for you. It’s also ridiculously cheap in that it only takes a single Turn Undead attempt to use again, so a single cleric dip can get you 4 to 6 uses per day at the very least.
Maneuvers and Stances
Since ToB has so much to offer to rogues in the form of swordsage dip and the Martial Study/Martial Stance feats, I’m making a separate section to list some useful low-level maneuvers and stances to pick up as a rogue. Remember, you can also get these using cheap magic items in ToB like Shadow Hands and Crown of the White Raven.
One thing to note about gaining Stances via ToB dips is that all of the ToB classes have a line saying they "begin play" with 1st level stances, which some take to mean that if you take a level in one of them, you must select a 1st level stance for that first level. I disagree with this interpretation, for reasons listed at the bottom of this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711786&postcount=19), but ultimately it's up to your DM, so when in doubt, ask. Even if that interpretation is in play, it's still worthwhile to take two levels of Swordsage to get Assassin's Stance, though in this case the option of getting it via feats or a single dip and feat is stronger.
Maneuvers
Distracting Embers (Desert Wind, 1) – Very good maneuver that ensures a full round of flanking in every fight. Quite useful in the early rounds while your fighter warblade friend is getting into flanking position. Always pick this up when taking a swordsage dip unless you absolutely don’t have space for it.
Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind, 1) – Pretty useful if you’re willing to expend skill points for Concentration, especially since you don’t fail on natural 1s. Unseen Seer builds have Concentration anyway, but those tend to have good Will saves already.
Counter Charge (Setting Sun, 1) – Can be fairly useful, potentially saving you a lot of damage from melee enemies.
Mighty Throw (Setting Sun, 1) – Fun maneuver, and one of my favorites, though it can be a bit limited in what it does. Works best on humanoid enemies and when you have a fighter-type on your side to take advantage of the prone condition.
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw, 1) – Highly useful if you’ve points to spare in Jump (or not even, if you’ve a high movement speed). This lets you move more than 5 ft and still full attack, so it’s great if you don’t have other means of doing that (Travel Devotion, Pounce).
Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw, 1) – A decent filler maneuver for attacking twice as a standard action. Only good early on as part of a swordsage dip.
Flashing Sun (Desert Wind, 2) – It’s an extra attack; you can never have enough of those. Pick this up with a swordsage dip along with Distracting Embers.
Action Before Thought (Diamond Mind, 2) – Absolutely not necessary. With high Dex, good Reflex saves, and incentive to multiclass a lot, your Reflex saves should be through the roof already. Either of the other two save-replacing maneuvers are much better than this.
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart, 2) – Since attack bonus generally outpaces AC at mid to high levels, this is a good way to occasionally avoid getting hit. A good entry to picking up Iron Heart Surge.
Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand, 2) – Just like Distracting Embers, this lets you full sneak attack for free for one round. The disadvantage is that it doesn’t work with Penetrating Strike, but this does work on ranged attacks which is nice. A good entry into Assassin’s Stance.
Shadow Jaunt (Shadow Hand, 2) – This can get you out of all kinds of sticky situations, from ropes/chains to grapples to wells that you manage to fall into. A fairly good maneuver without prerequisites.
Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon, 2) – The way to say goodbye to every wall/door you come across from now on. Ignoring ALL hardness is quite useful when you need to renovate your DM’s dungeon.
Mind Over Body (Diamond Mind, 3) – Another save-replacing maneuver. Better than Action Before Thought, but a bit worse than Moment of Perfect Mind due to the fact that you can often make up for poor Fort save through multiclassing, whereas getting a high Will save is harder.
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart, 3) – One of the most borked maneuvers in ToB. This lets you ignore any effect on you with a duration, ranging from Slow to Antimagic Field all the way up to the strong nuclear force if your DM would allow that. The open ended nature of this maneuver makes it a must have for warblade dippers, though it’s probably not worth taking two Martial Studies to get otherwise.
Shadow Garrote (Shadow Hand, 3) – Good maneuver to use on surprise rounds, this lets you get off a sneak attack on a ranged touch that can potentially make a target flat-footed for the next round. It’s good to have if you’ve room for it, but keep in mind that the save DC won’t be too high if your Wis is low, and sneak touch attacks can be replicated via wands or vials of acid.
White Raven Tactics (White Raven, 3) – The second of the most borked maneuvers in ToB, and arguably even better than Iron Heart Surge. As a swift action, you can give any ally another whole turn. Now, by PHB definition, you are your own ally, so you can technically use this on yourself. I’d suggest self-restraint plus rapid houseruling on this one, however; it’s already good enough. Must have for warblade dippers, and potentially good enough to spend two feats to get if you’ve some crazy casters on your team who can really (ab)use the extra actions well.
Searing Charge (Desert Wind, 4) – Frighteningly powerful with a barbarian dip, potentially letting you charge into flight and deal 5d6 extra fire damage each hit (depending on reading). If you are dipping barbarian for Pounce, and your DM agrees that the fire damage applies to each hit, this could very much be worthwhile for you, either through delaying your swordsage dip to level 13 or taking it via a second swordsage dip or feat.
Bounding Assault (Diamond Mind, 4) – Basically a charge attack with all of the benefits and none of the penalties. Great with barbarian dip, merely okay without pounce of some kind.
Lightning Recovery (Iron Heart, 4) – Rerolls are always useful, and this is quite nice at higher levels since it essentially gives you an extra attack with an immediate action by rerolling your natural 1. A bit hard to get, but worth it if you can get it without too much cost.
Doom Charge/Law Bearer/Radiant Charge/Tide of Chaos (Devoted Spirit, 5) – All of these are quite powerful with a barbarian dip for pounce. If you’re dipping crusader at high levels, you may as well take the one best matching your alignment. Hard to qualify for, but if you’re in position to take Devoted Spirit maneuvers, these are pretty good.
Iron Heart Focus (Iron Heart, 5) – Saves you life from the dice trying to kill you. Rerolls are always good, especially on saves, so this is a pretty good one to take if you can make the prerequisites.
Shadow Stride (Shadow Hand, 5) – No prereqs! Teleporting via move action is also good for getting out of grapples and doing something besides, but most of what this does can be copied with Shadow Jaunt or cheap magic items. Not worth spending too much effort to get, but still pretty decent.
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw, 5) – A very good higher level maneuver for rogues. It basically offers 2 extra attacks for TWFers, and works even with archery. If you’ve an extra feat, this is a pretty good investment, and if you’re starting at higher levels then it might be worth it to wait until 17th level to dip swordsage so you can get this.
Pouncing Charge (Tiger claw, 5) – For those without barbarian dips, this is how to get pounce. Unfortunately it doesn’t work with the other charge maneuvers like Searing Charge or Bounding Assault, but it’s still quite good for closing in at the first round of combat. Take this if the opportunity presents itself.
Moment of Alacrity (Diamond Mind, 6) – Crazy hard to get if you’re only dipping ToB, but is a fairly awesome maneuver in its own right. If the setup is right, you can use this to get an extra turn, which is understandably quite useful.
Stances
Stance of Clarity (Diamond Mind, 1) – Better than it looks; if you’re fighting one significant enemy, it’s basically +2 AC for free.
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart, 1) – Gives you 1d6 extra melee damage, at a cost of 2 AC. Not a bad stance with a warblade dip for when you absolutely can’t Sneak Attack for some reason (no flank or no Penetrating Strike).
Step of the Wind (Setting Sun, 1) – Very useful stance if your DM bothers with terrain, significantly less so if not. Easy to pick up with swordsage dip.
Child of Shadow (Shadow Hand, 1) – Useful feat, giving you 20% miss chance that basically can’t be negated. Good for snipers with Woodland Archer, and helps your d6 hit die.
Island of Blades (Shadow Hand, 1) – You’re a rogue, you love Sneak Attacking. You Sneak Attack by flanking, ergo you love flanking. This helps you flank, therefore you love this.
Hunter’s Sense (Tiger Claw, 1) – Nice out of combat feat, since it lets you smell enemies trying to hide from you (that’s your job). Annoying prereq though.
Thicket of Blades (Devoted Spirit, 3) – Pretty high level and requires a crusader dip, but pretty awesome if you do get it. This makes for great control builds with Stand Still, Mage Slayer, and some reach, though isn’t seen too often on rogues. Still awesome.
Absolute Steel (Iron Heart, 3) – Nice speed and AC boost for those on the move. Another good stance for Woodland Archer snipers, as well as anyone utilizing Confound the Big Folk + Travel Devotion.
Giant Killing Style (Setting Sun, 3) – Fun stance. For Small races like Whisper Gnomes and Strongheart Halflings, this is basically +2 attack/+4 damage against pretty much everyone. See builds section below for a fun “size matters” build.
Assassin’s Stance (Shadow Hand, 3) – The real reason you’re dipping ToB. This increases your Sneak Attack by 2d6 by itself, and is very much worth a Swordsage dip at 9th level. Recommended for everyone with access to ToB.
Hearing the Air (Diamond Mind, 5) – Blindsense is quite nice as a tool for detecting hidden enemies, so this is a great out of combat stance. Take it if you get the chance, but don’t go out of your way for it.
Dancing Blade Form (Iron Heart, 5) – Increasing reach is pretty useful, though having it only available on your turn is unfortunate. Not a terrible pick for higher-level warblade dips.
Step of the Dancing Moth (Shadow Hand, 5) – This is mostly just for the sheer awesomeness factor of it. The image of walking across the air right above the lava pool is just so damn cool. However, at the level you would get it, flight is readily accessible, so this is mostly just for fun.
Press the Advantage (White Raven, 5) – Hard to get, but great stance if you can get it. Being able to take two 5-ft steps in one round is incredibly helpful for mobility purposes. This also works with Confound the Big Folk, letting you 5-ft step out and then back into your enemy’s square to trigger it.
Aura of Perfect Order (Devoted Spirit, 6) – You’ll need at least two crusader levels to get this, and it’s only selectable at level 20 even then, but this is one amazing aura! The other alignment auras are a bit underwhelming (besides for 1d2 shenanigans), but this one nearly obsoletes Skill Mastery, guarantees making that saving throw, lets you hit when you really need to, and lets you ensure your UMD check on that scroll. It’s limited to one per round, but it’s still very good.
Spells
<Under Construction>
Equipment and Magic Items
<Under Construction>
Methods of Combat
There are several viable ways for rogues to engage into combat. Whether you're jumping into melee with a pair of daggers or firing cowardly from a corner and hoping nobody sees you, each of these combat styles have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Melee
Description: This is pretty simple; you grab a pair of weapons, charge at the enemy, and start swinging. Two weapon fighting is usually the most optimized route, but you can also go unarmed (or unarmed and two weapon fighting) or even use natural weapons. You want to get the most attacks possible here to deal Sneak Attack damage as many times as you can.
Advantages: The biggest advantage of melee combat is that you can easily pull off Sneak Attacks through flanking. This also lets you use Penetrating Strike, which pretty much enables Sneak Attacks on anything under the sun. Another advantage depends on spells allowed; if Polymorph is allowed in your campaign, it's easy to get huge bonuses to attack/damage and a large number of natural attacks because of it. Wraithstrike likewise helps guarantee your attacks hit by making them touch attacks.
Disadvantages: The obvious disadvantage here is that melee fighters tend to be... prone to death. Standing next to an enemy is just an open invitation for a full attack, so you'll need good defenses and HP to survive combat. Depending on flanks also mean depending on teammates, which can be problematic at times.
Ranged
Description: Ranged combat here refers to using bows, crossbows, or throwing weapons to riddle your opponent full of holes, usually by making a large number of attacks. You'll want Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Woodland Archer, as well as Splitting weapons.
Advantages: It's safer than melee combat. You also gain access to Splitting, which essentially doubles your damage for the cost of +3 special abilities on your weapon.
Disadvantages: You're not that much safer, since you're still within charge range (unless you're an Unseen Seer with Persistent Sniper's Shot). The biggest problem will be actually dealing Sneak Attack damage; you'll need to make enemies lose Dex to AC, which requires things like Grease, Greater Invisibility, or Ring of Blinking. You also can't use Penetrating Strike, so enemies immune to Sneak Attack are a problem, and you have to deal with issues like cover and concealment without the right spells/feats.
Sniping
Description: Sniping basically requires you to stay hidden all the time, making the occasional ranged attack and then vanishing into the shadows again. You'll need a great Hide score, Hide in Plain Sight, as well as ways to avoid magical detection (Darkstalker). You can snipe with either rays or weapons, and feats like Woodland Archer and Able Sniper help a lot.
Advantages: This is safer than regular ranged attacks. With spells like Sniper's Shot and Guided Shot, you can snipe from very far away, and you're usually hidden so enemies will have a hard time finding you, much less retaliating. It's also easy to get Sneak Attacks off, since you're hidden all the time.
Disadvantages: In most cases, Hiding requires an action, so you can only make a single attack per round and your damage output is low. You also have to deal with the obscene Hide penalty from attacking, and it has some of the same problems as regular ranged combat. Finally, sniping can be at odds with regular party tactics, since your allies are likely not nearly as adept at sneaking around as you are.
Spells
Description: This style of combat uses ranged touch spells to deliver Sneak Attack damage. Most of them are rays, but some, like the Orb spells, are not. You generally want a caster build (with classes like Unseen Seer and Spellwarped Sniper) for this, but it's not absolutely necessary if you use wands. Remember that the Sneak Attack damage is the same type as the spell that triggered it, or negative energy if the spell deals ability damage or negative levels. Because of this, Ray of Stupidity may be very worthwhile.
Advantages: The best part about using spells to deliver Sneak Attack is that the vast majority of such spells are ranged touch, meaning it's much easier to hit enemies. They're used from far away (Spellwarped Sniper's capstone doubles Sneak Attack range for rays), meaning you're safer than melee and sometimes ranged weapon users. You get secondary effects from your spells like status effects from Orb spells, and getting ranged touch effects can be really cheap for things like Wands of Acid Splash.
Disadvantages: Though you're further away than melee or ranged weapons, you're often still within charge range unless you use Sniper's Shot. Using spells this way also expends spell slots and/or charged items. You have the same issues with cover/concealment and getting off Sneak Attacks as ranged weapon users. Ultimately, the biggest problem of this style of fighting is that you get off far fewer attacks than a full attacking rogue, so your damage is likely far lower.
Splash Weapons
Description: This form of combat involves throwing splash weapons (Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Alchemist's FrostECS, Alchemist's SparkECS) at enemies and Sneak Attacking with them. These Sneak Attacks deal the same type of damage as the splash weapon would normally deal.
Advantages: The main advantage of using splash weapons is that all of them are resolved as touch attacks, so they're much easier to hit with. You also get to full attack using them, which makes them more effective at dealing damage than ray or orb spells. They work fine even in Anti-magic Fields, and they have enough range that you can potentially be outside full attack melee range while using them.
Disadvantages: These splash weapons deal typed damage, so certain enemies may resist them, though you have four types to choose from. Their range is pretty small, so you'll have to be pretty close by for them to work, meaning you're often in pounce range or even regular full attack range if an enemy has reach. The biggest problem is that alchemical vials can be fairly expensive if used in bulk, so this can be a hit to your WBL if you use them too much (though that's much less important at high levels).
Builds
Basic Rogue
Rogue 8/Swordsage 1/Rogue +11
The advantage of 19 levels of rogue without excessive multiclassing is the amount of skill points and the high number of rogue Special Abilities you'll get, so Savvy Rogue is likely very good here. You can focus on two-weapon fighting, archery, or splash weapons here. If the game starts at high levels, the swordsage dip can be moved further back for a better selection of maneuvers. If your DM holds the "must take 1st level stance at swordsage 1" interpretation, you'll have to spend a feat for Assassin's Stance. That holds for every swordsage dip in this section.
Maxed Out Sneak Attack
Rogue 3/Spellthief 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Fighter 3/Assassin 3/Avenger 1/Invisible Blade 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Unseen Seer 1/Guild Thief 3/Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Master of Masks 1
This is not really a build meant to be played; it's more of a theoretical exercise than anything else. Take Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, and you'll have 18d6 Sneak Attack by the end of it, along with 11 BAB. This pretty much sacrifices everything for Sneak Attack though, so I would not suggest it for an actual game.
Assassin
Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 1/Nightsong Enforcer 4
13d6 Sneak Attack, 13 BAB, full Assassin spellcasting, and Hide in Plain Sight. You can drop the level of Unseen Seer for a level of fighter if you want; this loses you a 4th level spell slot and spell known as well as 2 skill points, but frees up a few skills as well as lets you not have to take two divination spells. Nightsong Enforcer can also be skipped for more levels of rogue, which loses you a point of BAB but gains you skill points. Avenger, of course, works in place of assassin depending on alignment (make sure Spell Compendium assassin spells are allowed to it though).
Unseen Seer, Offensive
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4
This pretty much requires human with Able Learner. Wizard can be either conjurer or transmuter; conjurer gets Abrupt Jaunt, but transmuter has more relevant spells if you go Focused Specialist. You get 7d6 Sneak Attack from classes, plus whatever else you can get from Hunter's Eye. Make sure to take Spontaneous Divination from wizard 5. Practiced Spellcaster is a must, to make up for the rogue level and Divination Spell Power. Don't focus too much on touch spells; you can get much more damage through bows or melee. Use touch spells only on enemies that are extremely hard to hit otherwise.
Unseen Seer, Defensive
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5
You lose 2d6 Sneak Attack and Spontaneous Divination, but gain access to Abjurant Champion's awesome abilities as well as more BAB. You can give up the 5th level of Abjurant Champion to get Spontaneous Divination back if you like; you lose some AC, but loss of Martial Arcanist doesn't mean much to you. Same suggestions as the offensive version.
Unseen Seer, Rays
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarped Sniper 5
This is for those that want to specialize in rays above all else. You gain access to Spellwarp, at a cost of regular Sneak Attack damage. If you want to focus on this, you should probably take Spellwarped Sniper after your 5th level of Unseen Seer, then go back to Unseen Seer later. Overall, you can do much more damage with bows than rays, but this is still a viable option.
Daring Outlaw
Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 4/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler +11
This is pretty much the basic rogue, except with swashbuckler levels in place of rogue levels (thanks to Daring Outlaw). You'll have far fewer skill points (and worse class skills without Able Learner), but you'll be more effective at combat, with nearly full BAB (18 over 20 levels) and d10 Hit Die, and you'll gain some nifty swashbuckler abilities (Insightful Strike is by far the best). Whether that's worth the loss of skill points and Special Abilities is up to you.
Swift Ambusher
Rogue 3/Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue +13
Take Swift Ambusher, Improved Skirmish, Craven, Travel Devotion, and Knowledge Devotion (devotions via cloistered cleric). This gets you 8d6+20 Sneak Attack, 7d6/+7 Skirmish, and 3 rogue Special Abilities. It's a very damaging archer build, with a lot of skill points too.
Size Matters
Rogue 7/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 1/Fighter 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Rogue +6
Race is Whisper Gnome, with Titan Fighting, Underfoot Combat, and Confound the Big Folk. Swordsage grabs Giant Killing Stance while cleric dip gets Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Time Domain (for Improved Initiative). This ends up with 12d6 Sneak Attack, 13 BAB, and the ability to Sneak Attack every round via Confound the Big Folk and Travel Devotion. A fun build overall, and very interesting to play.
That Damned Kobold by Greenish
Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 4/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 11
Race is Desert Kobold (aged to Venerable). Take Dragonwrought, Dragon Tail, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Daring Outlaw, Craven, Rapidstrike, and Improved Rapidstrike. This gives you an attack routine of -0 UAS/-5 UAS/-10 UAS/-15 UAS/-0 Bite/-0 Tail/-0 Claw/-0 Claw/-5 Claw/-10 Claw/-15 Claw/-20 Claw, possibly more if you add in things like Snap Kick and Haste.
Links
Applying Precision Damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157722)
Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)
Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0)
Dipping Cleric 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0)
Factotum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0)
Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)
Rogue Mini-Guide by Person_Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6893722&postcount=35)
Ways to Get Extra Attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595)
Ways to Get Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)
And, I'm really done. This post is in case I need more for some reason. You can never be too sure...
Sc00by
2010-06-15, 08:06 PM
It's 14 kinds of awesome and I wish it had been here 2 months ago when I was building my rogue type character... (if only for the fighter sneak attack variant)
No mention of whisperknife? (Races of the Wild - must be a halfling) It's quite good fun... Well I'm enjoying it anyway. Throwing a 1d3 dagger at someone and doing 130 points of damage* doesn't get old - ever.
Also:
Bonus Feat – You can’t really go wrong with a bonus feat on a feat-st You can’t really go wrong with a bonus feat on a feat-starved class like the rogue.
wants a line deleting I think.
But great job! Thank you.
*yeah I need to critical to do that, but still... :)
[edit] can't type
Curmudgeon
2010-06-15, 08:11 PM
Among other errors, you've made one of the most common ones: used flat-footed when you mean denied DEX to AC. Making an enemy flat-footed keeps them from being able to make attacks of opportunity against anyone. While being flat-footed also denies an enemy their DEX bonus to AC, it isn't required for sneak attack: only denying DEX to AC is.
Keld Denar
2010-06-15, 08:16 PM
No Telling Blow discussion? Its not a blue feat, but it could be a green feat. Its useful for 3 things.
1 Ranged Attacks when foes aren't flat footed.
2 Ranged Attacks more than 30' regardless of flat footedness
3 Ranged or Melee attacks vs foes who have concealment
Otherwise, its generally a better option to move (tumble) into flank and make a single attack than it is to full attack and pray for a crit, especially since focusing on critting is non-optimal focus for a rogue due to the fact that SA doesn't multiply (although Craven does).
balistafreak
2010-06-15, 08:18 PM
Searched the file.
You don't mention marbles anywhere!
Maaaarbles!
I've lost my marbles!
Seriously, marbles force anyone with <5 ranks in balance to, well, Balance, which does specifically make them flat-footed.
Try turning a bag of holding full of nothing but marbles inside out. Good times.
Doc Roc
2010-06-15, 08:21 PM
I think you may be selling factotum a bit... short.
Amphetryon
2010-06-15, 08:24 PM
I'm a bit confused about why Monk ranks higher than Beguiler or Warlock to pair with Rogue.
Gnaeus
2010-06-15, 08:28 PM
Could the races section include a few of the higher LA options? In particular, Marrulurk (Sandstorm) at 3RHD +1 LA make amazing rogues, and Pixie might be worth a mention as well.
JeminiZero
2010-06-15, 08:32 PM
You typically want to take it at 9th level, since you can pick up Assassin’s Stance along with a bushel of nice maneuvers and Weapon Focus, but that’s up to you. One level of swordsage equals 2d6 extra Sneak Attack, so it’s very much worth it.
Actually, this is a widely held misconception. The Swordsage text specifies that you must take a 1st level stance on the 1st level of Swordsage. So no Assassin's stance. There's still Island of Blades and Hunter's Sense though.
No mention of whisperknife? (Races of the Wild - must be a halfling) It's quite good fun... Well I'm enjoying it anyway. Throwing a 1d3 dagger at someone and doing 130 points of damage* doesn't get old - ever.
I've looked at the class and I remember not being very impressed. I'll look again and check.
wants a line deleting I think.
Thanks! Got it!
Among other errors, you've made one of the most common ones: used flat-footed when you mean denied DEX to AC. Making an enemy flat-footed keeps them from being able to make attacks of opportunity against anyone. While being flat-footed also denies an enemy their DEX bonus to AC, it isn't required for sneak attack: only denying DEX to AC is.
I searched through and I think I got all of them. It's easy to use the wrong term when they're often so arbitrarily assigned (Balancing makes you flat-footed but being blinded loses you Dex to AC, being invisible denies Dex to AC but Sapphire Nightmare Blade inflicts flat-footedness, etc). If you see any other errors, I'd appreciate if you report them.
No Telling Blow discussion? Its not a blue feat, but it could be a green feat. Its useful for 3 things.
I have not looked at that feat, actually. I'll check what it does later and put it up.
You don't mention marbles anywhere!
It's going in the items section, I swear!
Well, once I finish it anyway.
I think you may be selling factotum a bit... short.
As a rogue dip? I'd like to see a build if possible. How many levels would you recommend?
I'm a bit confused about why Monk ranks higher than Beguiler or Warlock to pair with Rogue.
They're not really that great as dip classes for rogue. Wizard tends to be much better for Unseen Seer-style builds than Beguiler, while Warlock requires too many levels for the better invocations. Monk gives most of its benefits in two levels and can be useful for a few builds.
Could the races section include a few of the higher LA options? In particular, Marrulurk (Sandstorm) at 3RHD +1 LA make amazing rogues, and Pixie might be worth a mention as well.
That's a good idea. I'll look up some good LA races and add them then.
Actually, this is a widely held misconception. The Swordsage text specifies that you must take a 1st level stance on the 1st level of Swordsage. So no Assassin's stance. There's still Island of Blades and Hunter's Sense though.
I disagree with that interpretation. By RAW, you don't "start play" if you multiclass into it at 9th level, so you aren't forced to take a 1st level stance. By RAI, there's no reason why you should be forced to take a 1st level stance, and the phrase "start play" has been used by WotC books often enough that I'm inclined to believe they just didn't think of multiclassing when they wrote that line.
Greenish
2010-06-15, 08:38 PM
Feats: Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike for your Kobold along with Multiattack. Dragon Tail if your DM agrees that being a bloody dragon is close enough to Dragonblood subtype to qualify you.
That's 6 natural attacks for your Kobold rogue. 8 attacks if your DM buys that Rapidstrike grants an extra attack for both of your claws.
Unarmed Swordsage dip gets Unarmed Strike (as Monk), ie. with any body part you want, so you can do your full iteratives as pelvic thrusts, then get your four natural attacks at full BAB -2, and then rapidstrikes as -7 and -12.
Sample build: Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Desert Kobold
Rogue1/Swashbuckler1/Rogue2/Swashbuckler4/Unarmed Swordsage1/Swashbuckler11.
Dragonwrought, Multiattack, Dragon Tail (hey, 4 attacks at first level!), Weapon Finesse as swashbuckler bonus, Shadow Blade (I can't recall offhand if claws or bites are shadow hand weapons), Craven, Rapidstrike & Improved Rapidstrike, Craven.
Also, it might be worth mentioning that some read the martial adepts as being forced to take 1st level stance on their first level, regardless of their actual IL.
Oh, and great work. :smallcool:
Curmudgeon
2010-06-15, 08:44 PM
You've mixed up whether a couple of things are house rules or not.
Dragonfire Strike – Turns all of your Sneak Attack damage into fire damage, letting you bypass all possible immunities to Sneak Attack
Benefit: When you gain extra damage from a sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish, you can choose for the extra damage to be fire damage. If an enemy is immune to sneak attack you don't get any extra damage to choose to convert to fire. Using this to "bypass all possible immunities" is definitely a house rule. The feat is triggered off actual extra damage from sneak attack, not on some theoretical sneak availability.
Note: You can get Mobility via the Mobility armor special ability. It’s up to your DM if this works as a prereq for other feats/PrCs. If the DM follows the standard rules it's not up to them. Prerequisites are prerequisites; you either have them or you don't. The downside to having Mobility as an armor enhancement is pretty minimal, as it is limited to a loss of class abilities if you take off the armor for prestige classes in Complete Warrior. Here's the complete list:
Dervish
Gnome Giant-Slayer
So avoid those PrCs where there's a rule specifying a loss of class features (with no recovery mechanism available in the rules) for failing to maintain entrance requirements, and you're good.
Akal Saris
2010-06-15, 08:46 PM
Quite an excellent guide, in my opinion. You clearly spent a lot of time on this, so thank you for that. And thanks for linking my poison handbook as well :)
Some random contributions:
Skills:
While not a class skill, Iajutsu Focus is good enough to take cross-class ranks in if allowed. It's a Cha check to gain bonus damage on melee attacks against flat-footed foes when you draw a melee weapon.
Rogue weapons:
Melee: For dual-wielding, you'll want to use a rapier and short sword, or dual short swords if you intend to sink feats into weapon focus or something similar. You should also carry a morningstar, light mace, and punching dagger for foes vulnerable to piercing or bludgeoning, and a few daggers for general versatility.
Gnomes might have the option from C. Warrior's weapon familiarity variant rule of trading in the horrible hooked hammer for the gnome quickrazor (Races of Stone 154), which is like a concealed dagger. Dwarves get the excellent dwarven axe proficiency for free. Interesting options for exotic weapon proficiency include the lasso (BoED), spiked chain and the kusari-gama from the DMG.
Ranged: The shortbow is the best choice, with the hand crossbow as a nifty but generally less effective secondary option. A light crossbow is good only if you have a strength penalty. Interesting options for exotic weapon proficiency include the net and great crossbow (races of stone.
Prestige classes:
Scorpion Heritor from Sandstorm also has 8 skills/level and is quite easy for wilderness rogues to enter. It has full sneak attack advancement and gives a few bonus feats and poison-related abilities. Basically another one of the Rogue++ PrCs.
Dread Fang of Lolth from Drow of the Underdark is a pretty uncommon ftr/rogue PrC aimed at drow and half-drow. It's a pretty strong combo of the two classes, and the capstone is always having a surprise round, quite nice for sneak attacks.
Beast Heart Adept from Dungeonscape is another PrC that goes well with Wilderness Rogue. You gain several monstrous companions that rapidly scale with your level, gain benefits when flanking with them, and eventually whenever any of you are flanking and hit, you each get a free attack of opportunity. While it doesn't grant sneak attack, it grants lots of buddies to give you flanking and the potential for massive damage combos.
Magic Items:
Assassination special ability (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a): This +1 weapon enhancement gives you auto-poison use, increases poison DCs by +1 to +5, and gives +1d6 sneak attack. Much better than the basic +1d6 SA enchantment from the MIC.
Bracers of Murder (Drow of the Underdark): For 8K, these give +2 to attack/dmg against flat-footed foes, +2 to death attack save DCs, and allow you to reroll ones on sneak attack dice. All around excellent for the price.
JeminiZero
2010-06-15, 08:47 PM
I disagree with that interpretation. By RAW, you don't "start play" if you multiclass into it at 9th level, so you aren't forced to take a 1st level stance. By RAI, there's no reason why you should be forced to take a 1st level stance, and the phrase "start play" has been used by WotC books often enough that I'm inclined to believe they just didn't think of multiclassing when they wrote that line.
There are some problems with such a literalist intepretation but I won't go into them here. The key point is that not all DMs would follow that particular intepretation, so at the very least I would suggest noting it as a rule ambiguity.
Sc00by
2010-06-15, 08:49 PM
x2 on telling blow.
It's a nice way of getting sneak attack damage as a sort of last resort. With a keen kukri (and the target having a less than astronomical AC) you are looking at a 25% chance of a threat. Not bad odds if you have 6+ attacks per round...
My whisperknife build has it and it kicks in just often enough for me to not forget I've got it. Though I continually forget that the weapon I'm using is shocking BURST and thus never add the extra 2d10...
balistafreak
2010-06-15, 08:52 PM
While not a class skill, Iajutsu Focus is good enough to take cross-class ranks in if allowed. It's a Cha check to gain bonus damage on melee attacks against flat-footed foes when you draw a melee weapon.
I disagree that cross-class ranks in Iaijutsu Focus are worth anything. I believe this is what a Factotum dip can be used for. Of course, you'd also need (two?) Gnomish Quickrazor(s?), which would mean either being a (Whisper) Gnome or blowing a feat...
But man, the BONUS DAMAGE! Drop a Grease/Marbles, full attack, shaZAM.
I think Person Man's Haverdasher build may or may not say something about that, but I'm not sure.
Runestar
2010-06-15, 08:56 PM
I would generally avoid races with racial HD, since it means you won't get the 4x(8+int mod) skill points from your 1st lv of rogue, and are stuck with crappy number of skill points and a crummy skill list.
Pixie doesn't seem like a bad choice - perma-invis means you will rarely have problems dealing SA, but it seems it like it will pay off only at higher lvs.
In addition, I find it questionable that a rogue handbook would advocate builds that include only 1 lv of rogue. Shouldn't you be trying to make play a pure rogue as viable as possible? :smallconfused:
Darrin
2010-06-15, 09:08 PM
Add "Undo Resistance" (Fiendish Codex II) to the Feat section. Definitely a blue feat, particularly at high levels when everybody and their dog has SR.
I'd change Staggering Strike to blue as well.
Might want to add "Air Goblin" to the races. Unearthed Arcana, Dex +4, LA +0. Also, Muckdweller from Serpent Kingdoms: tiny size, LA +0, Str -6, Dex +6, Wis -2, Cha -2.
Gnaeus
2010-06-15, 09:08 PM
I would generally avoid races with racial HD, since it means you won't get the 4x(8+int mod) skill points from your 1st lv of rogue, and are stuck with crappy number of skill points and a crummy skill list.
Have you READ Marrulurk?
+2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Wis, +4 Cha
+4 Racial Bonus on Hide and Move Silently and Listen (Racial skills:bluff, hide, listen, move silently, spot)
Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Discriminating Hearing (like a weaker blindsense),
+2 Natural Armor, Fire resistance 5
2 free bonus feats, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot
Longbow Proficiency
Death attack and Poison Use like an Assassin
+2d6 Sneak Attack
Crummy breath weapon
For ranged rogues it is awesome beyond measure, giving 2 bonus feats like 2 levels of fighter without slowing down sneak attack AND great stat bonuses. For other rogues it is only pretty good, because of the stat bonuses and special qualities.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-15, 09:09 PM
I searched through and I think I got all of them. It's easy to use the wrong term when they're often so arbitrarily assigned (Balancing makes you flat-footed but being blinded loses you Dex to AC, being invisible denies Dex to AC but Sapphire Nightmare Blade inflicts flat-footedness, etc). If you see any other errors, I'd appreciate if you report them.
You got all the erroneous "flat-footed" references. Thank you.
I disagree with that interpretation. By RAW, you don't "start play" if you multiclass into it at 9th level, so you aren't forced to take a 1st level stance. By RAI, there's no reason why you should be forced to take a 1st level stance, and the phrase "start play" has been used by WotC books often enough that I'm inclined to believe they just didn't think of multiclassing when they wrote that line.
I'm not buying your argument here any more than JeminiZero did.
Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances. The context here is Swordsage class levels, as the next line makes clear. "You begin play" means "you begin play as a Swordsage". Whether WotC thought of multiclassing or not, as a 1st level Swordsage you begin with one 1st-level stance. (My opinion: "RAI" should never be mentioned in any rules discussion where you want to be taken seriously.)
Wonton
2010-06-15, 09:19 PM
This is awesome. There WAS a worrying lack of Rogue Handbooks prior to this. Kudos to you sir!
Runestar
2010-06-15, 09:23 PM
Have you READ Marrulurk?
For ranged rogues it is awesome beyond measure, giving 2 bonus feats like 2 levels of fighter without slowing down sneak attack AND great stat bonuses. For other rogues it is only pretty good, because of the stat bonuses and special qualities.
+2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Wis, +4 Cha
+4 Racial Bonus on Hide and Move Silently and Listen (Racial skills:bluff, hide, listen, move silently, spot)
Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Discriminating Hearing (like a weaker blindsense),
+2 Natural Armor, Fire resistance 5
2 free bonus feats, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot
Longbow Proficiency
Death attack and Poison Use like an Assassin
+2d6 Sneak Attack
Crummy breath weapon
It depends on what you want out of a rogue. If you are willing to give up all the skill points (which is really the key reason why you want to play a rogue, as opposed to say, a swordsage), all the better, I guess. Considering how it gets death attack as well, I might rather go pure assassin.
If I wanted archery, I might go rogueX/scout3 with swift ambusher, netting me full skirmish and almost full sneak attack progression. A rogue17/scout3 does +9d6SA and +5d6 skirmish (or +7d6 with improved skirmish).
Excellent work! Just glancing through your guide has given me a few character ideas. :)
Feats: Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike for your Kobold along with Multiattack. Dragon Tail if your DM agrees that being a bloody dragon is close enough to Dragonblood subtype to qualify you.
Oh, and great work. :smallcool:
I'll look over the combo later and add the build.
And thanks!
You've mixed up whether a couple of things are house rules or not.
Done and done; I've removed the line about Mobility, and added a note to Dragonfire Strike to ask for a houserule (because the RAW is stupid).
Quite an excellent guide, in my opinion. You clearly spent a lot of time on this, so thank you for that. And thanks for linking my poison handbook as well :)
Some random contributions:
Thank you. :smallsmile:
I'll look over your list later. The Assassination ability looks very nice.
There are some problems with such a literalist intepretation but I won't go into them here. The key point is that not all DMs would follow that particular intepretation, so at the very least I would suggest noting it as a rule ambiguity.
I've added the note to the maneuvers and stances section.
In addition, I find it questionable that a rogue handbook would advocate builds that include only 1 lv of rogue. Shouldn't you be trying to make play a pure rogue as viable as possible? :smallconfused:
Most of them do, or are at least very rogue based (Daring Outlaw, for example). The Unseen Seer builds are different because they're basically theurges; they're far more effective if you maximize one side and minimize the other, and wizard casting happens to be much stronger than rogue abilities. They're still decidedly more "rogueish" than pure wizards though, since they are far more focused on Sneak Attacks and skills.
Add "Undo Resistance" (Fiendish Codex II) to the Feat section. Definitely a blue feat, particularly at high levels when everybody and their dog has SR.
I'd change Staggering Strike to blue as well.
Might want to add "Air Goblin" to the races. Unearthed Arcana, Dex +4, LA +0. Also, Muckdweller from Serpent Kingdoms: tiny size, LA +0, Str -6, Dex +6, Wis -2, Cha -2.
Added to the "to-consider" list. Thanks!
I'm not buying your argument here any more than JeminiZero did. The context here is Swordsage class levels, as the next line makes clear. "You begin play" means "you begin play as a Swordsage". Whether WotC thought of multiclassing or not, as a 1st level Swordsage you begin with one 1st-level stance. (My opinion: "RAI" should never be mentioned in any rules discussion where you want to be taken seriously.)
I added a note to the Maneuvers and Stances section. In my opinion, RAI is a useful tool for practical optimization purposes when determining whether something should be houseruled, but YMMV.
This is awesome. There WAS a worrying lack of Rogue Handbooks prior to this. Kudos to you sir!
Thank you!
Runestar
2010-06-15, 09:44 PM
Most of them do, or are at least very rogue based (Daring Outlaw, for example). The Unseen Seer builds are different because they're basically theurges; they're far more effective if you maximize one side and minimize the other, and wizard casting happens to be much stronger than rogue abilities. They're still decidedly more "rogueish" than pure wizards though, since they are far more focused on Sneak Attacks and skills.
In the case of daring outlaw, there is little incentive to want to take more than 3-4 lvs of rogue. You effectively get a +19bab fighter with full SA progression and some key rogue skills maxed out (with able learner if possible). Not quite what I had in mind from a rogue handbook, but I suppose that with the modular nature of multiclassing in 3e, it is foolhardy to expect myself to be confined to just 1 class. :smallsmile:
Curmudgeon
2010-06-15, 09:48 PM
Feats
Dragonfire StrikeDM – Turns all of your Sneak Attack damage into fire damage, letting you bypass all possible immunities to Sneak Attack ... Note: By literal wording, this feat doesn't let you deal fire damage to enemies immune to Sneak Attack. This would make it utterly useless and obviously isn't intended, so ask your DM nicely to make it do what it's supposed to.
Your note is wrong. The feat has obvious use in most cases simply because it gives you an extra 1d6 of damage: the equivalent of gaining 2 Rogue levels. Dragonfire Strike is worth even more when you're dealing with any creature with fire vulnerability, since it would increase all your sneak attack damage 50%. And since you can choose whether to make this conversion or not, you're still good with regular sneak attack against creatures immune to fire damage. The feat is far from "utterly useless".
You appear to be staring at a fine, useful feat, and trying to squint until it becomes a must-have awesome feat. Wishful thinking doesn't make it so, alas.
Greenish
2010-06-15, 09:54 PM
In the case of daring outlaw, there is little incentive to want to take more than 3-4 lvs of rogue. You effectively get a +19bab fighter with full SA progression and some key rogue skills maxed out (with able learner if possible). Not quite what I had in mind from a rogue handbook, but I suppose that with the modular nature of multiclassing in 3e, it is foolhardy to expect myself to be confined to just 1 class. :smallsmile:It'd be a poor rogue handbook that didn't mention Daring Outlaw.
I've more feats for the canny rogues:
Shape Soulmeld (Lightning Gauntlets) lets you touch people for 1d6 + SA electricity damage all day long, baby.
Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) gives you better bonus to UMD than skill focus. It also gives you bonuses to Spellcraft and Decipher Script.
Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws) gives you +4 to Hide & Move Silently.
Each of them takes a magic item slot: hands for gauntlets and claws, goggles for spectacles. They can be improved with essentia from an incarnum race or feats.
Two level dip to Totemist is something to consider, too: binding a blink shirt to your totem chakra you gain a move action teleport, while Girallon Arms gives you four claw attacks for your full round action, and Landshark Boots give four claw attacks as a standard action if you make a jump check (to which the soulmeld gives bonus to). And of course you can shape some pretty decent ones, too.
Starscream
2010-06-15, 10:02 PM
Thanks for this. I'm playing a rogue right now, and this handbook is sure to come in handy.
In the case of daring outlaw, there is little incentive to want to take more than 3-4 lvs of rogue. You effectively get a +19bab fighter with full SA progression and some key rogue skills maxed out (with able learner if possible). Not quite what I had in mind from a rogue handbook, but I suppose that with the modular nature of multiclassing in 3e, it is foolhardy to expect myself to be confined to just 1 class. :smallsmile:
There's only so many ways you can do Rogue 19/X 1. If you want a singleclassed-ish build, that's it. Past that point, the question is how you can take rogue and adapt it to various other builds, which would likely involve heavy multiclassing. The most important thing about a "rogue" build is that it plays like a rogue, making Sneak Attacks and using skills. Secondly, since this is a handbook for the class, the rogue class should be, if not centerpiece, at least an essential piece of every build, and all of them achieve that to some degree. You'll notice there's no Swordsage 20 suggestion, for example.
You appear to be staring at a fine, useful feat, and trying to squint until it becomes a must-have awesome feat. Wishful thinking doesn't make it so, alas.
Rewrote it; is that more agreeable?
As written, it's not really worth a feat. 1d6 Sneak Attack for a feat is okay, but not when it would fail on so many enemies. The houseruled version would actually be usable, though still not really "must have" IMO, since it costs three feats to actually be fantastic and you can do well enough using things like Wands of Grave Strike and Penetrating Strike.
I've more feats for the canny rogues:
Added to list of things to look over. I really need to get a better grasp of MoI one of these days.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-15, 10:25 PM
Rewrote it; is that more agreeable?
Yes, though I still think there's no call to try to add a house rule.
As written, it's not really worth a feat. 1d6 Sneak Attack for a feat is okay, but not when it would fail on so many enemies.
The obvious comparison if you're looking for a feat to add 1d6 to your sneak attack is Improved Sneak Attack [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSneakAttack), which is considerably harder to qualify for. A Silverbrow Human can take Dragonfire Strike at level 1. Simple prerequisites make the feat more reasonable.
Gnaeus
2010-06-15, 11:36 PM
+2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Wis, +4 Cha
+4 Racial Bonus on Hide and Move Silently and Listen (Racial skills:bluff, hide, listen, move silently, spot)
Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Discriminating Hearing (like a weaker blindsense),
+2 Natural Armor, Fire resistance 5
2 free bonus feats, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot
Longbow Proficiency
Death attack and Poison Use like an Assassin
+2d6 Sneak Attack
Crummy breath weapon
[QUOTE=Runestar;8712218]
It depends on what you want out of a rogue. If you are willing to give up all the skill points (which is really the key reason why you want to play a rogue, as opposed to say, a swordsage), all the better, I guess. Considering how it gets death attack as well, I might rather go pure assassin.
Do the math again. A Marrulurk is about 36 skill points behind a rogue (after LA buyoff). -12 (for the racial bonuses in core rogue skills) =24 skill points. Figure a +2 bonus (based on its better stats) on every skill requiring Dex, Wisdom, or Charisma, and you realize that if it takes at least 12 different skills during its career, its overall bonuses are as good or better than a straight rogue. Even better if you assume that the rogue would otherwise be dropping skill points by taking classes like Assassin which aren't 8/level.
But that assumes that all skills are equal. A marrulurk Rogue, with its higher stat bonuses and racial bonuses, can choose, if he wishes, to concentrate his skill points on key skills (Hide & Move Silently especially, but any skill based on Wis, Dex, or Cha) to get a higher total bonus in those key skills than a human rogue could achieve. I mean, yes, it is nice to have 11 maxed skills per level, but it is nicer to succeed on a 1 on your move silently when you are sneaking ahead of the party.
And that also assumes that the marrulurk, with his 22 points of racial stat bonuses, can't afford to put a higher score in Int than a rogue of a +0/1 ecl race could do. If normal rogue allocated Dex, Con, Int, (as PId6 advises) and Marrulurk allocated Int, Dex, Con, it is likely that for the elite array or most point buys the Marrulurk has a higher int than most races, while still retaining better scores in most or all his other stats. Even a 2 point advantage in intelligence means that the marrulurk is only 13 skill points behind the full rogue over his career.
Example:
Sample Elite Array: Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 13
Sample 25 PB: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10
Compared to:
Sample Elite Array (Marrulurk) Str 10, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 17
Sample 25 PB (Marrulurk) Str 11, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 12
The marrulurk isn't better than the best rogue races for every single rogue build, but its stats + skill bonuses alone make it very comparable. Its sensory advantages make it a better scout, and its bonus feats make it a better archer.
If I wanted archery, I might go rogueX/scout3 with swift ambusher, netting me full skirmish and almost full sneak attack progression. A rogue17/scout3 does +9d6SA and +5d6 skirmish (or +7d6 with improved skirmish).
That is good, but Marrulurk Rogue 14/Scout 3 (assuming LA buyoff) is very comparable. It loses 2d6 SA and a little skirmish, but adds 2 free feats, and if the +6 dex means that you hit with 1 additional attack/round, it actually does more damage (here assuming that you have a method of move+full attack for skirmish).
Keld Denar
2010-06-15, 11:54 PM
Each of them takes a magic item slot: hands for gauntlets and claws, goggles for spectacles. They can be improved with essentia from an incarnum race or feats.
Only if you bind them to a Chakra, which you probably won't be doing, given that you won't have a Chakra bind unless you dip Incarnate. You can't shape more than one soulmeld to a given chakra slot, but ONLY when a meld is bound to a chakra does it interfere with a magic item slot. Reference MoI pages 50 and 51, specifically the sections on Melds and Chakras.
Two soulmelds can't be bound to the same chakra
When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot.
So, taking Shape Soulmeld in NO way prohibits you from wearing a magic item. You couldn't, however, take Shape Soulmeld: Lightning Gauntlets AND Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, due to the fact that you can't shape 2 soulmelds to the same chakra. There is a difference between SHAPE and BIND.
gorfnab
2010-06-16, 12:02 AM
Another rogue based prestige class to add would be Telfammar Shadowlord. It is especially nice when paired with a late level dip into swordsage for Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink
Also it gets even better for Whisper Gnome rogues. Magic in the Blood (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magic_in_the_Blood) + Silencing Strike (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Silencing_Strike) = 3 dead mages per day unless they have Silent Spell feat.
For builds, rogues are a solid base for dagger throwers.
Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B:Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Craven
7. Fighter - Targeteer (Drag 310) - Vital Aim
8. Fighter - Targeteer - Far Shot
9. Swordsage - Shadow Blade, B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand
10. Swordsage - Assassins Stance
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting, B: Improved Critical
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade
Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Halfling Rogue (RotW) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B:Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Craven
7. Fighter - Targeteer (Drag 310) - Vital Aim
8. Fighter - Targeteer - Far Shot
9. Swordsage - Shadow Blade, B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand
10. Swordsage - Assassins Stance
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting, B: Improved Critical
16. Whisper Knife - B: Rapid Shot
17. Whisper Knife
18. Whisper Knife or Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade
For Targeteer exotic weapon proficiencies look into Desert Throwing Knife (Sandstorm), Halfling Skiprock (Rotw) or Drow Long Knife (SoX). For Master Thrower tricks I recommend Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, and Weak Spot.
Each build will get you BAB 18 for 16 daggers thrown per round (8 get sneak attack because of volley rules).
If you can take flaws that will open up space for Improved Precise Shot (human build), Twin Sword Style, Darkstalker, Surprising Riposte or other feats.
Also if your DM allows it try to see if you can do both the Targeteer Variant fighter along with the Hit-and-Run variant fighter (DotU).
Math_Mage
2010-06-16, 01:34 AM
Is there a TWF handbook? I constantly see references to how TWF rogues are more optimized than other melee rogues, but never any details on how to actually optimize a TWF rogue.
gorfnab
2010-06-16, 02:40 AM
Is there a TWF handbook? I constantly see references to how TWF rogues are more optimized than other melee rogues, but never any details on how to actually optimize a TWF rogue.
Normal rogues get 3 attacks per round while TWF tree rogues get 6 attacks per round. Basically it comes down to more attacks per round = more sneak attack damage. Feats for a TWF rogue are fairly easy. You'll want TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse (or add Swashbuckler + Daring Outlaw), and Craven. And maybe think about taking 2 levels of Swordsage around level 9+ for Shadowblade and more sneak attack damage from Assassin's Stance. After that max out your dex and look into prestige classes and whatnot for more tricks and more ways to get sneak attack.
Kaiyanwang
2010-06-16, 02:54 AM
OP, maybe I missed it and someone already said it, but what about the Scarlet Corsair from Stormwrack?
I liked the free action feint.. does some build with it exist?
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 03:29 AM
Is there a TWF handbook? I constantly see references to how TWF rogues are more optimized than other melee rogues, but never any details on how to actually optimize a TWF rogue.
That's because Two-Weapon Fighting isn't actually a good idea for Rogues.
The theory is that more attacks = more opportunities for sneak attacks. However, this only works if all of the following are true:
you actually get more attacks
more attacks = more hits
you survive
Two-Weapon Fighting only gives you more attacks when you can make a full attack; the rest of the time this feat does nothing for you. Getting those extra attacks requires that you don't need to use a move action in any round, so it's quite situation-dependent.
Choosing TWF reduces your chances of hitting in several ways:
It applies at minimum a -2 penalty to all attacks.
Using it either doubles your costs for weapons, or has you using weapons with lower enhancement (so even less likely to hit).
Feat cost: Selecting Two-Weapon Fighting means you didn't select something that would provide greater benefits (like Knowledge Devotion, which increases both hit chance and damage). And the returns on further feats in the TWF tree are worse: same cost (1 feat), but less chance of hitting with each one.
The ideal main hand Rogue weapon is the rapier. Off hand weapons Rogues are proficient with can't match the rapier's threat range, which means you'll make fewer critical hits. (Or you'll incur a -4 penalty using dual rapiers, or a feat cost for Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead.)
At the start of every encounter you must be equipped with a ranged weapon, or waste vital chances to sneak attack flat-footed foes: once in the surprise round (if your Spot and Listen are good), and for a full attack in the first regular round. But Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't help if you use a two-handed ranged weapon, like a bow. So you'll only benefit from TWF if you throw things (or grab loaded hand crossbows, which amounts to the same thing). Every thrown weapon the Rogue is proficient with will incur a range penalty within the 30' sneak attack limit, so you're less likely to hit. Plus when you get to BAB +6 you'll need Quick Draw or you'll be unable to full attack with your thrown weapons: more feat cost.
Because you're going to make full attacks, you're probably going to be in melee a lot, and thus at greater risk of being killed by full counterattacks. (The other option is to take Quick Draw and throw javelins or use many hand crossbows. Though a safer approach, range penalties and poor threat ranges cause you to lose on both regular and critical hits.) Heavy melee combat means you'll want to increase your CON score, which isn't normally useful for the Rogue's class abilities. Boosting CON comes at the expense of some other ability that is useful to the class (like INT for more skill points, or WIS to boost Spot and Listen so you won't be surprised).
As I see it, Two-Weapon Fighting is an expensive trap for Rogues. It's just not worth it.
gorfnab
2010-06-16, 03:30 AM
Another race to consider, if the DM allows it, is the Beguiler from Shining South. It gets a nice bonus to Dex and Int though takes a hit to Str, True Seeing, climb speed, and an insane bonus to Hide. It has natural attacks of claw, claw, bite, rake with Multiattack as a bonus feat. All this with +0 LA.
Sliver
2010-06-16, 03:51 AM
Wouldn't taking a barbarian ACF dip for pounce help a TWF rogue? (or any other pounce...)
ZeroNumerous
2010-06-16, 03:56 AM
Kind of surprised no one's mentioned Thri-Keen yet(from Expanded Psionics or Dark Sun). Who needs Dual-Wielding when you can Quad-Wield?
Adumbration
2010-06-16, 03:57 AM
I've always liked the Silver Key prestige class. How would you rate it for rogues? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 04:03 AM
Wouldn't taking a barbarian ACF dip for pounce help a TWF rogue? (or any other pounce...)
Yes, it would help. The biggest limitation of Two-Weapon Fighting is that you can't move more than 5'. Being able to charge and then full attack is a big improvement.
On the down side, Barbarian/Rogue synergies are so-so. You get +¼ extra BAB (difference between full and 3/4), good hit points, martial weapon proficiencies, and a boost to Fortitude saves (though that's the least important one for a Rogue). But it costs you ½ die of sneak attack, 4 skill points, an inability to add any other base class past level 2 because of the multiclass XP penalties, and a delay of 1 level in getting to the Rogue special abilities (Skill Mastery, Crippling Strike).
Greenish
2010-06-16, 04:30 AM
Only if you bind them to a Chakra, which you probably won't be doing, given that you won't have a Chakra bind unless you dip Incarnate. You can't shape more than one soulmeld to a given chakra slot, but ONLY when a meld is bound to a chakra does it interfere with a magic item slot. Reference MoI pages 50 and 51, specifically the sections on Melds and Chakras.
So, taking Shape Soulmeld in NO way prohibits you from wearing a magic item. You couldn't, however, take Shape Soulmeld: Lightning Gauntlets AND Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, due to the fact that you can't shape 2 soulmelds to the same chakra. There is a difference between SHAPE and BIND.Ah, my bad. I'm not as well versed on Incarnum as I'd like to think. :smallamused:
Sc00by
2010-06-16, 04:42 AM
That's because Two-Weapon Fighting isn't actually a good idea for Rogues.
...
I have to say that I had to take TWF to qualify for a prestige class (and I got rapid shot for free) and have used both exactly once.
In the really real world your 3rd (and 4th) attacks are marginal in terms of hitting at best, putting your 1st and 2nd attacks near those numbers is not a good thing. Focus on hitting (you don't do any damage if you can't actually hit the target) and hitting hard. Having 1 weapon means it can realistically be in the +7 or +8 category at higher levels without making the WBL table cry. Try having 2 of them?
Also I have a +5 buckler that stops working if I use my left arm to attack and that's 6 points of very neccessary AC (and there is just no room in any rogue build for improved buckler defense (especially if you have the whole TWF line) Even a 6 point power attack hurts.
Also where is the Barbarian ACF that gives pounce? I thought it was the Lion totem, but the versions I can find all give Run as the ACF @ 1st level?
Also:
I've always liked the Silver Key prestige class. How would you rate it for rogues? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)
You have to be a dwarf, which isn't that great and it doesn't advance sneak attack as far as I can see. Also you can't have ACFed away trapsense :(
But it looks like it would make a pretty decent skill monkey and has loads of 'fluff' or flavour if you prefer? :)
Tytalus
2010-06-16, 05:06 AM
Crippling Strike – It’s a no-save debuff that can really stack up after a few attacks. Can disable weaker enemies like archers/casters fairly quickly. Very nice.
In theory perhaps, but in practice that doesn't work.
For example, assume you want to "disable" the scrawny caster (STR 8). You need to land four sneak attacks on that poor chap. At this level, that's already at least 20D6 sneak attack damage alone (not counting weapon damage and any other bonuses at all) - only exceptional wizards will live long enough to to actually care about the strength damage. Archers will be even less impressed, since they often sport a higher strength than mages do.
In other words, CS works best if you get many sneak attack hits on a single creature. True, it stacks up nicely, but the sneak attack damage tends to kill things much faster than the STR damage disables them.
In practice, it serves as a minor debuff on tough melee enemies (where reduced STR does actually matter a little). It's not great, but it doesn't offer a save. In comparison, Staggering Strike results in a much better effect, for it really does cripple those affected (and being affected is not difficult despite the FORT save).
Staggering StrikeCAdv – Potentially very useful versus boss monsters and even just melee brutes. It essentially Slows them, preventing full attacks each round that they’re affected by it. Allows a Fort save, which can be annoying, but it’s based on damage dealt, which can easily be through the roof, and you get multiple attacks so more chances to fail. Worthless against anything with Fast Healing though.
It's very useful against all kinds of opponents. For example it's also useful vs. spellcasters. Not only are they even more likely to be affected, it prevents them from casting an moving or 5ft.-stepping and casting. In essence, if they want to cast, they'll have to stay next to you, setting you up for a full attack next round. Unless they spend a spell to get out of trouble, which is also a success - that's a spell wasted that isn't used to influence the battle otherwise.
And for the record, it is not worthless vs. Fast Healing. The staggering condition is overcome only by a Heal check or magical healing (see feat description). Fast Healing generally is neither (Vigor spells and certain magic items are a rare exception).
It's a truly great payoff for a single feat, as it triggers on all your sneak attacks automatically without wasting extra actions. That's why it's generally considered an excellent choice for melee rogues.
Amphetryon
2010-06-16, 05:30 AM
Samurai and Hexblade could use some mention in the multiclassing section. Both provide better HD and CHA-focused abilities, with CHA being arguably better for a Rogue to raise than STR. A Samurai dip gets you free TWF - for those who disagree with Curmudgeon's analysis - while Hexblade's Curse ability softens up opponents nicely for your team if you're using Mearls' suggested fix (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades?p ost_id=332210466#332210466).
Tytalus
2010-06-16, 05:34 AM
If I wanted archery, I might go rogueX/scout3 with swift ambusher, netting me full skirmish and almost full sneak attack progression. A rogue17/scout3 does +9d6SA and +5d6 skirmish (or +7d6 with improved skirmish).
That is good, but Marrulurk Rogue 14/Scout 3 (assuming LA buyoff) is very comparable. It loses 2d6 SA and a little skirmish, but adds 2 free feats, and if the +6 dex means that you hit with 1 additional attack/round, it actually does more damage (here assuming that you have a method of move+full attack for skirmish).
Actually, the Marrulurk does exactly the same SA damage as the Runestar's archer - not less (Gnaeus forgot the racial +2D6 SA), and the same skirmish damage (he's missing only a measly +1 skirmish AC).
Given vastly superior ability mods, better HD, two free feats and a couple of minor abilities, how is that not clearly better than Runestar's suggestion?
Ravens_cry
2010-06-16, 06:07 AM
Is there any rogue PRC that gets smite? If not, any rogue/paladin synergy feats? Such as levels in paladin levels stacking for sneak attack or visa the versa?
Amphetryon
2010-06-16, 06:15 AM
Is there any rogue PRC that gets smite? If not, any rogue/paladin synergy feats? Such as levels in paladin levels stacking for sneak attack or visa the versa?
Shadowbane Inquisitor is the default Paladin/Rogue PrC. Smites at 2nd, 6th, and 10th.
Il_Vec
2010-06-16, 07:25 AM
Also where is the Barbarian ACF that gives pounce? I thought it was the Lion totem, but the versions I can find all give Run as the ACF @ 1st level?
It is the Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian found on Complete Champion.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 08:49 AM
Is there any rogue PRC that gets smite? If not, any rogue/paladin synergy feats? Such as levels in paladin levels stacking for sneak attack or visa the versa?
No, nothing like that. There is one multiclassing feat that ought to be added, though: Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357), which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and undead turning. Since sneak attack is a stronger ability than undead turning, this typically is used in a mostly-(Cloistered) Cleric build (Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric X).
Greenish
2010-06-16, 08:52 AM
No, nothing like that. There is one multiclassing feat that ought to be added, though: Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357), which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and undead turning. Since sneak attack is a stronger ability than undead turning, this typically is used in a mostly-(Cloistered) Cleric build (Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric X).Does it require actual rogue levels, or is 2d6 SA enough?
In the latter case, you'd get nice mileage from a tactical swordsage dip. :smallcool:
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 09:10 AM
Does it require actual rogue levels, or is 2d6 SA enough?
In the latter case, you'd get nice mileage from a tactical swordsage dip. :smallcool:
No, it doesn't. You'd lose the benefit of the feat if you ever went out of Assassin's Stance, though, so that's a bit on the risky side. :smallannoyed:
ProfMoriarty
2010-06-16, 11:07 AM
Love the handbook so far.
You might consider adding Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) to the list of potential prestige classes.
It has very easy pre-requisites for a rogue. Including a single essentia point; gained through either race, a single level of an incarnum base class, or an incarnum feat such as Midnight Dodge (Midnight Dodge also counts as Dodge for prerequisites).
It has 3/4 BAB, 6+Int skill points and decent skill list (missing a few notable skills such as UMD, Disable Device, Bluff). It has good reflex and will saves and can hide in plain sight as a ranger due to Embrace of Shadow at level 3 (ECL 8).
The 3 level dip is preferable gaining 2 essentia, a single sneak attack dice and Embrace of Shadow. The 4th and 6th levels are dead levels so while the later abilities are interesting they are probably not worth the dead levels.
Sept Knowledge can be useful for rogues with knowledge devotion, gaining a bonus on all knowledge and gather information checks for 24 hours after meeting a member of your sept (a fluffy guild of some sort for umbral disciples). Travel with a low-level hireling from your sept or get a fellow PC to join the sept to make this bonus continuous.
Person_Man
2010-06-16, 11:15 AM
This seems relevant, and has been well received on similar threads.
Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:
1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.
2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.
3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.
4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.
5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.
6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.
7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.
8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).
9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.
10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.
11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.
12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).
13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.
14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.
15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this, or a Binder 5 can use the Kas (Dragon Magazine #341) vestige to Blind on every critical hit (and it allows your crits to effect undead).
16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.
17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.
18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.
19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.
20) Feint: This is a stupid waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.
21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.
22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).
Also, you may wish to incorporate Spoiler tags into your handbook. It makes it easier to read.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 11:27 AM
You might consider adding Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) to the list of potential prestige classes.
...
It has good reflex and will saves and can hide in plain sight as a ranger due to Embrace of Shadow at level 3 (ECL 8).
I've looked into this one, and it's got a significant downside: Embrace of Shadow is a Supernatural ability.
Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. The Shadowdancer or Assassin Hide in Plain Sight Supernatural abilities do "note otherwise" by directly using the Hide skill, which normally takes no action to perform. But Embrace of Shadow is a separate ability, which may or may not be used to enable you to Hide.
Embrace of shadow is usable at will. Since the ability doesn't specify any other duration, you'll need to trigger this "at will" ability each round, using a standard action and at least 2 points of essentia each time. That doesn't let you do much of anything else except run away.
Telonius
2010-06-16, 11:39 AM
Love the guide! You've obviously put a lot of work into it. I do have a couple suggestions though.
I'll put in my usual plug for a one-level dip in Master of Masks, Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all weapons means you can get some Thinblade/Lightblade two-weapon fighting without even spending any feats on proficiency. This is effectively an average of +2 to all damage with your primary attack (d6 rapier vs d8 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask) and either +1 or +2 for your second (d4 kukri or d6 shortsword vs d6 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask). The cost is low: 8 ranks in skills you'd probably consider taking anyway (bluff and disguise), 8 ranks in perform, and four languages. If your Int is high, you'll have a few of the languages already. So it really only costs 12 or so skill points. I'd call that a steal, and Rogues love a good steal.
I'd specifically mention in the Multiclassing section that the 20th level of Rogue is totally, completely, utterly worthless. Rogue19/Warrior1 is better than Rogue20. Rogue19/Expert1 gives Rogue20 a run for its money, depending on the class skills selected. (Iajutsu Focus, I'm looking at you). You have to get down to Rogue19/Commoner1 before Rogue20 is a clear winner.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 12:00 PM
I'll put in my usual plug for a one-level dip in Master of Masks, Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all weapons means you can get some Thinblade/Lightblade two-weapon fighting without even spending any feats on proficiency. This is effectively an average of +2 to all damage with your primary attack (d6 rapier vs d8 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask) and either +1 or +2 for your second
That's really not much of a recommendation. You're gaining maybe +2 damage per attack, at the cost of 1 Rogue level, or ½ die of sneak attack: -1.75 points, on average. Plus you have to spend 8 skill points on Perform: act (which is AFAIK utterly useless), maybe 2 points for a cross-class Speak Language, and then lose 4 more skill points for that level of MoM. Those 14 skill points could buy you 7 skill tricks instead, which (with tricks like Acrobatic Backstab) give you more opportunities for sneak attack. That's where the Rogue's real damage potential is -- not a mundane point or two per attack.
Eldariel
2010-06-16, 12:29 PM
That's really not much of a recommendation. You're gaining maybe +2 damage per attack, at the cost of 1 Rogue level, or ½ die of sneak attack: -1.75 points, on average. Plus you have to spend 8 skill points on Perform: act (which is AFAIK utterly useless), maybe 2 points for a cross-class Speak Language, and then lose 4 more skill points for that level of MoM. Those 14 skill points could buy you 7 skill tricks instead, which (with tricks like Acrobatic Backstab) give you more opportunities for sneak attack. That's where the Rogue's real damage potential is -- not a mundane point or two per attack.
Then again, there are many exotic weapons with more interesting abilities than just damage. If anything makes the Mask worth it, it's making a good use of tons of those.
ProfMoriarty
2010-06-16, 01:06 PM
I've looked into this one, and it's got a significant downside: Embrace of Shadow is a Supernatural ability. The Shadowdancer or Assassin Hide in Plain Sight Supernatural abilities do "note otherwise" by directly using the Hide skill, which normally takes no action to perform. But Embrace of Shadow is a separate ability, which may or may not be used to enable you to Hide.
Since the ability doesn't specify any other duration, you'll need to trigger this "at will" ability each round, using a standard action and at least 2 points of essentia each time. That doesn't let you do much of anything else except run away.
Hmm, when I first read this ability I assumed it was continuous with essentia invested, I know page 50 (MoI) states that class abilities requiring essentia work like soulmelds for the purpose of investing essentia. This means that the essentia, at least remains invested until reallocated (unless lost due to being temporary or receiving essentia damage). Though if the designers intended this to be continuous, then it would be questionable as to why they made it at will except perhaps for non-combat interactions where you don't want to be covered in shadows and then must activate it when a fight suddenly breaks out, but I digress.
The "at will" line makes it nigh unuseable if it isn't continuous. I am however curious about what you think the duration is since it isn't specified. Rules Compendium and SRD don't seem to specify a default duration, maybe it doesn't do anything because its instantaneous.
DragoonWraith
2010-06-16, 01:13 PM
I know Tome of Magic specifies that for the Binder's Vestige-granted-abilities that are at-will, if no duration is specified they're assumed to be activated at the beginning of the Pact and remain on unless the Binder decides to turn them off...
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 01:49 PM
I know page 50 (MoI) states that class abilities requiring essentia work like soulmelds for the purpose of investing essentia. Yes, that covers investing essentia (defaults to a swift action).
These receptacles are treated as soulmelds for the putpose of investing essentia into them There's no mention of treating class abilities the same as soulmelds beyond the investment; individual class abilities then specify duration. Just a couple of examples: The Incandescent Champion's Fast Healing Supernatural class ability has a full specification of
activation (no action)
essentia investment (swift action -- the default)
duration (IC levels in rounds/day)
The IC's Unbearable Countenance ability, on the other hand, says: "This ability is always active."
The "at will" line makes it nigh unuseable if it isn't continuous. I am however curious about what you think the duration is since it isn't specified.
"At will" specifies something you can select when it's your turn. You get a turn each round, and that's when you can choose to activate the ability; hence the 1 round duration as the simplest likelihood. Embrace of Shadow would need a declaration like that for Unbearable Countenance if it were to be always active. That's just not there.
Without a specification of extended duration, Embrace of Shadow is still useful for running away and hiding. That may not satisfy, but staying alive is still better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-16, 03:48 PM
I would like to mention that there are several other nasty things you can do with a Warlock dip:
1) you get Eldritch Blast. I know, it doesn't sound like much, only 1d6, but think about everything you get:
a) It's a touch-attack you can use an unlimited number of times. Flat-Footed Touch Attack also means AC 10 + misc mods to AC. TRY missing this.
b) Darkness is also a viable Invocation. Why? Let's go to Drow of the Underdark to see what we can take: Blend Into Shadows (effectively HiPS), At Home In The Deep (effectively Devil's Sight invocation), Instinctive Darkness (use as an immediate action), and Fade Into Darkness (+5 on Hide checks). Darkness invocation + Blend Into Shadows = HIPS without needing steep feat prerequisites for Shadowdancer.
c) 4 level dip might be painful for lack of Sneak Attack, but Take 10 on UMD checks? Nice. Also, it still increases EB damage,
d) Eldritch Glaive. You can't TWF with it, but at least you get iterative attacks with it. As touch attacks
So, a 4 level dip nets you the following:
* A ranged touch attack that can never be disarmed, base damage 2d6 that can go up to 4d6 or higher with toys
* Take 10 on UMD checks
* +6 to social skills AND HiPS
FURTHERMORE:
If you can find a way to qualify for Unseen Seer (a one-level dip, most likely), you can use it to advance Warlock invocations without loosing too much on the Rogue side. Doing so nets you things like the ability to get into Hellfire Warlock relatively painlessly.
So, as a proposed build: Rogue3/Sorcerer1/Warlock1/USS 7/Mindbender1 (for Mindsight)/HFW3/etc...
Binder1 works very well for this, because Binder can do so much for your character as well as Strongheart Vest or Naberious to mitigate the Con damage from HFW.
As your Lesser Invocations, you pick up Charm Person, which is always nice for certain social and combat situations, which lets you get into Mindbender for Mindsight, so you can never be surprised. Then you take Hellfire blast to get into HFW.
Least Invocations: Beguiling Influence, Darkness, either Eldritch Glaive or Dark One's Own Luck depending on if you wish to do more damage or more defense.
You pick up Golemstrike, Gravestrike, and Vinestrike through Advanced Spell Learning.
If you choose to advance casting with more USS, you can get things like Flee The Scene for a 'Get Out Of Trouble' card, Voracious Dispelling or Relentless Dispelling for debuffing opponent casters, or Fell Flight for mobility ability.
If you get a Greater Invocation, make it Vitriolic Blast so you ignore SR.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 04:14 PM
I would like to mention that there are several other nasty things you can do with a Warlock dip:
...
b) Darkness is also a viable Invocation. Why? Let's go to Drow of the Underdark to see what we can take: Blend Into Shadows (effectively HiPS), At Home In The Deep (effectively Devil's Sight invocation), Instinctive Darkness (use as an immediate action), and Fade Into Darkness (+5 on Hide checks). Darkness invocation + Blend Into Shadows = HIPS without needing steep feat prerequisites for Shadowdancer.
Sorry, but you've slipped on an important detail here.
Benefit: You can see through the shadowy illumination created by a darkness spell as if the spell weren’t there. While the Darkness invocation behaves like the Darkness spell, it remains a spell-like ability. The At Home in the Deep feat only helps specifically with the Darkness spell. Not the Darkness invocation, the Deeper Darkness spell, or anything else.
Blend Into Shadows is fine for letting you Hide, but since At Home in the Deep doesn't cut through your enemy's concealment you can't sneak attack them. You actually have to use the Devil's Sight invocation here, which means you need more than just the one least invocation you get as Warlock 1.
true_shinken
2010-06-16, 04:58 PM
I'd just like to point out you can't take both Thug and Hit and Run substitutions as a fighter. Both give up heavy armor proficiency; once you give it up for one, you don't have it to give up fot the other.
Sorry, but you've slipped on an important detail here. While the Darkness invocation behaves like the Darkness spell, it remains a spell-like ability. The At Home in the Deep feat only helps specifically with the Darkness spell. Not the Darkness invocation, the Deeper Darkness spell, or anything else.
Just take Devil's Sight then. Also, since that line of feats is intended to work with spell-like abilities, I doubt that should ever arise as a problem.
Is there a TWF handbook? I constantly see references to how TWF rogues are more optimized than other melee rogues, but never any details on how to actually optimize a TWF rogue.
No, but it's simple enough. Take Weapon Finesse (which you'd want anyway), the TWF tree, wield a light weapon in offhand, avoid Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Rend, and all of the other bad TWF-specific feats, and for everything else just take anything that's good for melee rogues (Craven). It's feat-intensive, but worth it since you get so many extra attacks.
OP, maybe I missed it and someone already said it, but what about the Scarlet Corsair from Stormwrack?
I liked the free action feint.. does some build with it exist?
Will look into.
Two-Weapon Fighting only gives you more attacks when you can make a full attack; the rest of the time this feat does nothing for you. Getting those extra attacks requires that you don't need to use a move action in any round, so it's quite situation-dependent.
At higher levels, full attacking trumps non-full attack damage so much that you're much better off just focusing on it and getting ways to allow you to full attack every round (just like every other melee character). Pounce, caster/familiar casting Benign Transposition, Travel Devotion, 10-ft steps, etc (I believe Person_Man has a thread about that somewhere I'll have to dig up) all allow you to full attack each round along with movement. You're far better off trying to get full attacks every round than ignoring it and just dealing minor damage with one attack per round.
It applies at minimum a -2 penalty to all attacks.
The penalty is annoying, but not that significant at higher levels with a bit of optimization. -10% to-hit doesn't mean much when you've three extra attacks to make up for it.
Using it either doubles your costs for weapons, or has you using weapons with lower enhancement (so even less likely to hit).
Chained Greater Magic Weapon solves that problem, and is always a good idea regardless. You also actually get more special abilities for the same price, since two +5 weapons cost a lot less than a single +10. With each weapon attacking as many times as a non-TWFer would with one weapon, it works out quite nicely.
Feat cost: Selecting Two-Weapon Fighting means you didn't select something that would provide greater benefits (like Knowledge Devotion, which increases both hit chance and damage). And the returns on further feats in the TWF tree are worse: same cost (1 feat), but less chance of hitting with each one.
Yes, this is by far the biggest problem with TWF. Still, with the extra attacks they provide, I would say all of them are worth it, even GTWF.
The ideal main hand Rogue weapon is the rapier. Off hand weapons Rogues are proficient with can't match the rapier's threat range, which means you'll make fewer critical hits. (Or you'll incur a -4 penalty using dual rapiers, or a feat cost for Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead.)
You actually make more critical hits, even with a lower-crit weapon in the offhand, because you make more attacks. And with a dip in fighter, swordsage, or barbarian, you get access to Kukri. Besides, critical hits usually aren't that useful for rogues (without Telling Blow) since you don't double your Sneak Attack damage.
At the start of every encounter you must be equipped with a ranged weapon, or waste vital chances to sneak attack flat-footed foes: once in the surprise round (if your Spot and Listen are good), and for a full attack in the first regular round. But Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't help if you use a two-handed ranged weapon, like a bow. So you'll only benefit from TWF if you throw things (or grab loaded hand crossbows, which amounts to the same thing). Every thrown weapon the Rogue is proficient with will incur a range penalty within the 30' sneak attack limit, so you're less likely to hit. Plus when you get to BAB +6 you'll need Quick Draw or you'll be unable to full attack with your thrown weapons: more feat cost.
Or, you get pounce, letting you full attack flat-footed foes in both surprise round and the first round. And there's no reason you can't use ranged weapons and then draw regular weapons, because Quick Draw is gotten from the Least Crystal of Return, which costs a measly 300 gp each.
Because you're going to make full attacks, you're probably going to be in melee a lot, and thus at greater risk of being killed by full counterattacks.
I've already pointed that out in the combat styles section. TWF is optimal for melee rogues; whether that's worth the extra danger in comparison to ranged weapons is up to the player.
Another race to consider, if the DM allows it, is the Beguiler from Shining South. It gets a nice bonus to Dex and Int though takes a hit to Str, True Seeing, climb speed, and an insane bonus to Hide. It has natural attacks of claw, claw, bite, rake with Multiattack as a bonus feat. All this with +0 LA.
I remember it was LA +0 (cohort) or something. Will have to check.
Kind of surprised no one's mentioned Thri-Keen yet(from Expanded Psionics or Dark Sun). Who needs Dual-Wielding when you can Quad-Wield?
Will add that to the LA races section once I have time. Definitely use the MM2 version though; the psionic version isn't worth the extra LA.
I've always liked the Silver Key prestige class. How would you rate it for rogues? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)
Added to the list of things to look at.
Crippling Strike and Staggering Strike
Thanks for the info. Changed.
Samurai and Hexblade could use some mention in the multiclassing section. Both provide better HD and CHA-focused abilities, with CHA being arguably better for a Rogue to raise than STR. A Samurai dip gets you free TWF - for those who disagree with Curmudgeon's analysis - while Hexblade's Curse ability softens up opponents nicely for your team if you're using Mearls' suggested fix (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades?p ost_id=332210466#332210466).
I'll take a look. Might be even better if you can convince your DM to give the CW Samurai Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill.
No, nothing like that. There is one multiclassing feat that ought to be added, though: Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357), which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and undead turning. Since sneak attack is a stronger ability than undead turning, this typically is used in a mostly-(Cloistered) Cleric build (Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric X).
That's a pretty good one. I'll have to dig it up and add it.
Love the handbook so far.
You might consider adding Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) to the list of potential prestige classes.
Thanks! I'll look into it. Will probably add a note about houseruling the Embrace of Shadow ability.
This seems relevant, and has been well received on similar threads.
Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:
Also, you may wish to incorporate Spoiler tags into your handbook. It makes it easier to read.
It's already in the links section, but I'll see about adding the info somewhere else as well. I'll look into spoilers.
I'll put in my usual plug for a one-level dip in Master of Masks, Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all weapons means you can get some Thinblade/Lightblade two-weapon fighting without even spending any feats on proficiency. This is effectively an average of +2 to all damage with your primary attack (d6 rapier vs d8 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask) and either +1 or +2 for your second (d4 kukri or d6 shortsword vs d6 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask). The cost is low: 8 ranks in skills you'd probably consider taking anyway (bluff and disguise), 8 ranks in perform, and four languages. If your Int is high, you'll have a few of the languages already. So it really only costs 12 or so skill points. I'd call that a steal, and Rogues love a good steal.
I'd specifically mention in the Multiclassing section that the 20th level of Rogue is totally, completely, utterly worthless. Rogue19/Warrior1 is better than Rogue20. Rogue19/Expert1 gives Rogue20 a run for its money, depending on the class skills selected. (Iajutsu Focus, I'm looking at you). You have to get down to Rogue19/Commoner1 before Rogue20 is a clear winner.
I'm already considering Master of Masks for Assassin's Mask, and Gladiator's Mask does have some versatile uses. Will add eventually.
And the multclassing note is added. Rogue 20 really is a terrible level.
I would like to mention that there are several other nasty things you can do with a Warlock dip:
Very interesting. I'll add it to the list.
I'd just like to point out you can't take both Thug and Hit and Run substitutions as a fighter. Both give up heavy armor proficiency; once you give it up for one, you don't have it to give up fot the other.
Thanks, I've added that to the OP.
faceroll
2010-06-16, 06:06 PM
Do racial bonuses stack?
Ie, a Shadow Whispergnome getting +a bajillion to move silent.
You also left out shadow pouncing, which a couple FR prcs get. You get to make full attacks after you teleport. Find ways to teleport as standard, move, and swift actions, and you're getting 3 full attacks/round.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-16, 06:14 PM
Sorry, but you've slipped on an important detail here. While the Darkness invocation behaves like the Darkness spell, it remains a spell-like ability. The At Home in the Deep feat only helps specifically with the Darkness spell. Not the Darkness invocation, the Deeper Darkness spell, or anything else.
Blend Into Shadows is fine for letting you Hide, but since At Home in the Deep doesn't cut through your enemy's concealment you can't sneak attack them. You actually have to use the Devil's Sight invocation here, which means you need more than just the one least invocation you get as Warlock 1.
Sorry, but I haven't. The Darkness Invocation grants you Darkness the spell, as a spell-like ability. Just like the Drow's racial spell-like abilities. In other words, if Drow can use it on their racial Darkness SLA, so too can a Warlock with his.
Koury
2010-06-16, 06:15 PM
Ooo, new title. I approve. :smallbiggrin:
Do racial bonuses stack?
Ie, a Shadow Whispergnome getting +a bajillion to move silent.
You also left out shadow pouncing, which a couple FR prcs get. You get to make full attacks after you teleport. Find ways to teleport as standard, move, and swift actions, and you're getting 3 full attacks/round.
According to Curmudgeon here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8708778&postcount=1109) they do. No idea about the source though.
It's on my to-add list (which is really really big right now). Are there any better shadow pouncer PrCs than Telflammar Shadowlord?
Ooo, new title. I approve. :smallbiggrin:
Yep. Whoever thought of is must be a genius! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks, by the way. Way better than the old one
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 07:10 PM
The Darkness Invocation grants you Darkness the spell, as a spell-like ability.
That doesn't make any sense. These are different types of abilities, with different rules.
Invocations: A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul.
...
A warlock’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
...
Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat.
The Darkness invocation simulates the Darkness spell, but it's always a SLA rather than a spell.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-16, 07:19 PM
That doesn't make any sense. These are different types of abilities, with different rules.
The Darkness invocation simulates the Darkness spell, but it's always a SLA rather than a spell.
And the feats explicitly work with Darkness as a spell-like ability, because they function with, and use charges of, and in fact has the prerequisite of, the Darkness spell-like ability, most commonly mentioned being the racial ability of Drow. If it didn't work with SLA's, then they would be completely worthless.
furthermore, it explicitly states in the description of the invocation "Use Darkness as the Spell".
So yes. It works.
Coidzor
2010-06-16, 07:20 PM
You should consider adding a note to the Human Paragon multiclass option about how its last 2 levels will also advance any spellcasting classes that might be involved in the multiclass medley.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 07:40 PM
furthermore, it explicitly states in the description of the invocation "Use Darkness as the Spell".
Yes, Darkness as (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/as) (to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly) the spell. Not Darkness the spell.
You should consider adding a note to the Human Paragon multiclass option about how its last 2 levels will also advance any spellcasting classes that might be involved in the multiclass medley.
Done. Thanks.
herrhauptmann
2010-06-16, 07:52 PM
[SIZE="3"]
Mage SlayerCArc – A great feat on its own. With any sort of reach, this feat can allow you to give enemy mages a very bad day. What’s even better about it is that it lets you qualify for Pierce Magical Concealment.
Pierce Magical ConcealmentCArc – Its normal effect is awesome enough, letting you ignore enemy wizards with Blur or Displacement effects. However, the best part about this feat is that it lets you ignore the miss chance from your own Blink effects, making your own Ring of Blinking completely beneficial to you. If Blink is your primary means of denying Dex to AC for enemies (which is quite possible for ranged builds), this is almost a necessity. However, it does require Mage Slayer, which is worthless for ranged rogues, but this is worth the cost.
Just a small nitpick, pierce magical concealment requires you to have the feat blindfight.
I also might've missed it, but I don't think I saw whispergnome in your list. Nor their feat silencing strike. They get 'silence' as a SLA, and silencing strike lets them put silence on their sneak attack victim for free. Add in then the feat 'extra silence' for 3 extra uses per day.
Finally, another handbook. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook)
Another edit: Skill Trick "Spot the weak point". Use your standard action to make a spot check with DC equal to opponents AC. Next attack is a touch attack.
Requires 12 ranks in spot which you should probably have anyway. Seems like it might be more effective for a brutal rogue, or one who can't reliably get a method of touch attacks or magical buffs (from allies or items).
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-16, 07:53 PM
Yes, Darkness as (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/as) (to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly) the spell. Not Darkness the spell.
So you are saying it is literally a worthless feat since it does not work with the ability it is expressedly and explicitly supposed to work with?
Why would anyone take it if it doesn't work with SLA's? Which is the ONLY WAY TO ACTIVATE IT.
You keep saying that, but I don't think it means what you think it means...
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 08:04 PM
So you are saying it is literally a worthless feat since it does not work with the ability it is expressedly and explicitly supposed to work with?
Why would anyone take it if it doesn't work with SLA's? Which is the ONLY WAY TO ACTIVATE IT.
Huh? There's no activation for At Home in the Deep. It simply always works to see through a Darkness spell. This means that whenever an enemy tries to give themselves concealment with Darkness so you'll incur a miss chance and can't sneak attack them -- it fails.
It is, however, a limited feat. It doesn't work on other [Darkness] spells, not even Deeper Darkness, which is basically just more of the same effect.
Jarian
2010-06-16, 08:07 PM
Curmudgeon, I hate to say it, but you're being, well, a curmudgeon.
You're intentionally choosing to read things in a way that invalidates a combination that you (apparently; I don't actually know you) don't like, but in doing so, you end up making a series of feats utterly pointless.
And you don't see any problem with that reading?
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-16, 08:18 PM
Huh? There's no activation for At Home in the Deep. It simply always works to see through a Darkness spell. This means that whenever an enemy tries to give themselves concealment with Darkness so you'll incur a miss chance and can't sneak attack them -- it fails.
It is, however, a limited feat. It doesn't work on other [Darkness] spells, not even Deeper Darkness, which is basically just more of the same effect.
From the SRD under Special Abilities:
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
So even by the rules definition, you are wrong.
It isn't another spell with the [Darkness] descriptor. It is Darkness, it simply doesn't eat up spell slots, and in the case of a Warlock, may be used an unlimited number of times per day.
Just a small nitpick, pierce magical concealment requires you to have the feat blindfight.
I did forget. Added now.
I also might've missed it, but I don't think I saw whispergnome in your list. Nor their feat silencing strike. They get 'silence' as a SLA, and silencing strike lets them put silence on their sneak attack victim for free. Add in then the feat 'extra silence' for 3 extra uses per day.
Whisper Gnome is up there. I'll add the two feats to my "to do" list.
Finally, another handbook. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook)
That's the one that's 5 years old with a lot of outdated and sometimes just wrong information (Illumians get 6 sigils? Whaaa?).
Another edit: Skill Trick "Spot the weak point". Use your standard action to make a spot check with DC equal to opponents AC. Next attack is a touch attack.
Requires 12 ranks in spot which you should probably have anyway. Seems like it might be more effective for a brutal rogue, or one who can't reliably get a method of touch attacks or magical buffs (from allies or items).
It's on there, but it's not really all that useful. Taking two rounds to make a single touch attack is a pretty bad use of actions. You've much better options in the form of touch spells (Wand of Acid Splash is very cheap), splash weapons, and Wraithstrike. Good enough for a skill trick, I guess.
faceroll
2010-06-16, 08:29 PM
According to Curmudgeon here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8708778&postcount=1109) they do. No idea about the source though.
I'd really like to see a source on that.
It's on my to-add list (which is really really big right now). Are there any better shadow pouncer PrCs than Telflammar Shadowlord?
Not really. Crinti Shadow Marauder from Shining South gets it, but it's a mount-based class. Maybe some sort of scout/rogue build or something; who knows. I think Shadow Lord is 100x better, cause it's got spells.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 08:31 PM
You're intentionally choosing to read things in a way that invalidates a combination that you (apparently; I don't actually know you) don't like, but in doing so, you end up making a series of feats utterly pointless. Likes and dislikes don't enter into it. Personally, I really like Rogues, and am always on the lookout for ways to make them more effective. But I try to read the rules as written, then figure out if and how to put things together in a useful fashion. There's nothing in the rules that says a bunch of feats, none of which are in a feat tree, need to work well together.
And you don't see any problem with that reading?
The rules are the rules. This particular feat has one stated use, and I'm just maintaining that that's what the RAW says. It works against the Darkness spell, but not other [Darkness] spells or effects. Warlocks already have an alternate solution with more capability in this regard: the Devil’s Sight invocation. Other classes have different ways of getting at a similar result, such as the Ebon Eyes spell. So complaining that At Home in the Dark doesn't duplicate Devil's Sight seems pointless to me. If the feat doesn't do what you'd like it to, don't take it; find another answer. D&D is just brimming over with options.
ZeroNumerous
2010-06-16, 08:43 PM
If the feat doesn't do what you'd like it to, don't take it; find another answer. D&D is just brimming over with options.
Except the feat does what it's intended to do: It sees through a darkness spell.
A spell like ability, quoth the SRD...
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
Bolding mine.
The invocation specifies that "you can use darkness as the spell".
If I am using Darkness as per the spell, and spell-like abilities function just like the spell of that name, then by RAW At Home In the Deep will allow me to see through it.
DragoonWraith
2010-06-16, 09:01 PM
Curmudgeon, I have to agree with ZeroNumerous here. The rules for SLAs suggest that when an SLA mimics a spell, it counts as that spell for all purposes. You can qualify for prestige classes by having SLAs of spells. You can qualify for feats with SLAs of spells.
Optimator
2010-06-16, 09:02 PM
Looking good thus far.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 09:04 PM
As you quoted, "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name."
If I am using Darkness as per the spell, and spell-like abilities function just like the spell of that name, then by RAW At Home In the Deep will allow me to see through it.
Except, of course, when the feat says that it specifically works on the Darkness spell alone. The writers of the feat were clearly aware of this distinction, because the feat's prerequisite includes "Darkness as a spell-like ability", whereas the benefit is for "the Darkness spell" and not the Darkness spell-like ability.
You can't have it both ways. If the distinction isn't important, as you claim, then the feat wouldn't call out distinct versions of Darkness in the prerequisite and benefit sections. If the distinction does matter for the feat, then the benefit works only as stated.
Defiant
2010-06-16, 09:06 PM
What about the pixie race? Isn't it awesome for a rogue?
DragoonWraith
2010-06-16, 09:11 PM
As you quoted, "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name."
Except, of course, when the feat says that it specifically works on the Darkness spell alone. The writers of the feat were clearly aware of this distinction, because the feat's prerequisite includes "Darkness as a spell-like ability", whereas the benefit is for "the Darkness spell" and not the Darkness spell-like ability.
You can't have it both ways. If the distinction isn't important, as you claim, then the feat wouldn't call out distinct versions of Darkness in the prerequisite and benefit sections. If the distinction does matter for the feat, then the benefit works only as stated.
The way I see it:
Things that affect spells affect SLAs of that spell.
Things that affect SLAs do not affect the spell that SLA mimics if cast as a spell.
Akal Saris
2010-06-16, 09:12 PM
I'd suggest dropping the matter and letting Curmudgeon play it how he likes it, or starting a new thread on the SLAs vs. spells argument.
On a sidenote, one PC in a game I run is a 12th level warlock who went nuts with the darkness-themed feats and the house-ruled lesser invocation version of darkness (the one that includes a swarm of bats). Her character is an absolute pain in the butt to fight in most combats - flying around with immediate action deeper darkness+bats that grants her HiPS and a hide bonus. She's actually considering taking a level of rogue and the craven feat to boost her skills and damage vs. flat-footed opponents.
Jarian
2010-06-16, 09:13 PM
*facepalms forever*
So, we have this spell-like ability. It functions, for all intents and purposes, as a spell of the same name.
But the ability that requires said spell-like ability doesn't actually let you use it.
Because you're coming up with... what? The lack of "-like ability" in the feat's description?
Ugh. I need a drink just trying to understand your thought processes.
Edit: Above poster is correct. No sense derailing this thread with further pedantry.
Thiyr
2010-06-16, 09:15 PM
As you quoted, "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name."
Except, of course, when the feat says that it specifically works on the Darkness spell alone. The writers of the feat were clearly aware of this distinction, because the feat's prerequisite includes "Darkness as a spell-like ability", whereas the benefit is for "the Darkness spell" and not the Darkness spell-like ability.
You can't have it both ways. If the distinction isn't important, as you claim, then the feat wouldn't call out distinct versions of Darkness in the prerequisite and benefit sections. If the distinction does matter for the feat, then the benefit works only as stated.
This is a case of ovals and circles, I'd say. A circle is an oval, but an oval is not a circle. By the same token, SLAs act as spells of the same name. However, the spell does not act as an SLA. The distinction matters for the pre-req, because the spell will not qualify, only the SLA will. It does not matter in the description, as the SLA works as the spell does, and as such can be seen through.
Edit: drop'd
ZeroNumerous
2010-06-16, 09:16 PM
As you quoted, "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name."
If you had simply continued onward, past my bolding, you would notice this:
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
Bolding, once again, mine.
Denoting that the 'Usually' qualifier applies only in cases where the spell-like ability in question specifies otherwise.
There is no specific case in Darkness(the invocation) that specifies that it functions in any way except as per Darkness(the spell).
Except, of course, when the feat says that it specifically works on the Darkness spell alone.
The only specification relevant to At Home in the Deep is that it does not function on other [Darkness] effects.
According to your logic, that qualification is irrelevant as Descriptors only apply to spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor), which you clearly believe Spell-like Abilities are not.
As such, an SLA that "functions as per Darkness" will continue to function as per Darkness and an ability that sees through Darkness will see through such an SLA, as--again, according to you--such an SLA is not a [Darkness] spell.
Then again: Anyone else would say "That's bunk" and classify an SLA as a [Darkness] spell, even if strict RAW says otherwise. This is known as the "No, you cannot heal yourself by dunking your head under water" effect.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
What about the pixie race? Isn't it awesome for a rogue?
+6 LA says otherwise...
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 09:26 PM
Curmudgeon, I have to agree with ZeroNumerous here. The rules for SLAs suggest that when an SLA mimics a spell, it counts as that spell for all purposes. You can qualify for prestige classes by having SLAs of spells. You can qualify for feats with SLAs of spells.
Sometimes yes; sometimes no.
... a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.
... requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher. But a requirement can always specify exactly what's allowed and what's not. The Mindbender Prc, for instance (Complete Arcane, page 54)
Spells: Able to cast charm person, use charm person as a spell-like ability, or use the charm invocation. ... or the Arcane Mastery feat (Complete Arcane, page 73):
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells or use spell-like abilities (including invocations). You can't acquire At Home in the Dark if you can cast the Darkness spell, because the prerequisite stipulates only the Darkness spell-like ability; contrast this with “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” in the above example. Similarly, you can't see through the Darkness spell-like ability, because the benefit stipulates only the Darkness spell; again, see the above example for a form which would allow you to see through either.
By popular request, I guess I'm done here.
What about the pixie race? Isn't it awesome for a rogue?
It has some very good abilities, but the +4 LA really hurts. It could be decent in high level games though, as long as your DM isn't popping True Seeing on everything. I'll go over it in the LA races section I'll add eventually.
I'd really like to see a source on that.
Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8720555&postcount=1126)
Akal Saris
2010-06-16, 11:09 PM
If the DM is giving away free LA, then pixie is good at +1 or even +2 LA, but I think +4 is probably too much for a rogue. Being 4 ranks below an ECL 5 human rogue's skills is probably just too much even for constant greater invis and the other nice stuff.
My personal favorite rogue race is probably strongheart halfling, followed closely by whisper gnome and human/azurin.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-16, 11:51 PM
I'd really like to see a source on that.
This was asked in the "Simple Q&A" thread, and I cited the source there; it's straight out of the basic stacking rules in the Player's Handbook.
faceroll
2010-06-17, 12:33 AM
Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8720555&postcount=1126)[/QUOTE]
This was asked in the "Simple Q&A" thread, and I cited the source there; it's straight out of the basic stacking rules in the Player's Handbook.
Thanks. I've wondered this for quite some time, and never bothered to look in an actual book. Never could find anything on the SRD, either way.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-17, 12:51 AM
Thanks. I've wondered this for quite some time, and never bothered to look in an actual book. Never could find anything on the SRD, either way.
The full explanation is not in the SRD. The d20srd.org version adds the stack definition, because that was released separately for the online D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary). However, as I noted, this only provides (as examples) 2 of the 3 exceptions to the basic stacking rule (circumstance and dodge bonuses); it omits mention of the other exception: racial bonuses.
The SRD is very nice, and I use it a lot. But hauling out the actual books is the way to go when things aren't clear after you've exhausted the convenient (but sometimes misleading) online material.
Thespianus
2010-06-17, 01:30 AM
As I see it, Two-Weapon Fighting is an expensive trap for Rogues. It's just not worth it.
And I assume this is one of the reasons that a magic enabled Rogue is very popular. Wraithstrike (especially in Extended or Persisted form) makes TWF fun even at very high levels.
Then again, when you can persist Wraithstrike, I guess you're more of an almost full caster than a Rogue. ;)
Then again, when you can persist Wraithstrike, I guess you're more of an almost full caster than a Rogue. ;)
I don't see how you can Persist it without either 1. significant levels in a full casting class, or 2. way too much effort to cheese it in without 1. Naenhoon Illumian with a cleric dip, a wizard dip, and Precocious Apprentice would qualify for 2, but you're better off just turning into a full caster in that case.
Update: I've added an LA races section with some of the suggestions. Marrulurks really are just awesome.
Thespianus
2010-06-17, 04:06 AM
I don't see how you can Persist it without either 1. significant levels in a full casting class, or 2. way too much effort to cheese it in without 1. Naenhoon Illumian with a cleric dip, a wizard dip, and Precocious Apprentice would qualify for 2, but you're better off just turning into a full caster in that case.
Well, with Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/(Other PrC), you can get significant levels in a full casting class without losing the Rogue feel, but yes, it requires crazy levels of caster and maybe some Metamagic-reducing feats as well.
I know, I know. Just saying that it's doable. ;)
However, if you go Rogue X/Focused Specialist Transmuter Y/Unseen Seer 2 , you don't need too many non-Rogueish levels to use Extend Spell, both for Wraithstrike and Hunter's Eye.
Anyway, great handbook! I forgot to say that, and I apologize. Awesome work!
Well, with Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/(Other PrC), you can get significant levels in a full casting class without losing the Rogue feel, but yes, it requires crazy levels of caster and maybe some Metamagic-reducing feats as well.
I do love me some Unseen Seer. My current one has Persistent Wraithstrike running everyday, along with Persistent Hunter's Eye, Cloud of Knives, Golem Strike, Grave Strike, Guided Shot, and Sniper's Shot. I should probably add Easy and Practical Metamagic to the feats section; they're extremely helpful for all Unseen Seer-type builds.
Anyway, great handbook! I forgot to say that, and I apologize. Awesome work!
Thanks! :smallcool:
Endarire
2010-06-17, 03:46 PM
Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)! Every class handbook is better with a link to the original class!
Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) has LA0 versions of Aasimar, Drow, and Tieflings. Aasimar and Tieflings are still native outsiders!
Whisper Gnome Stats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).
Dragonborn of Bahamut Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1).
Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) is probably worse than Air Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#airGoblins). Extrapolating other elemental races (+2 INT, -2 CHA for Races of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire)) may be viable.
Gray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm).
Half-Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm).
There's controversy whether Action Before Thought allows Evasion. If so, this maneuver is slightly more viable. I also greatly recommend save swap maneuvers if your DM likes forcing saves. Having them handy is usually an auto-pass 1/encounter.
You reference Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape 13) so often yet I didn't see the source or how to get it. Penetrating Strike is an alternative class feature (ACF) that replaces Trap Sense at Rogue3.
Os1ris09
2010-06-17, 03:49 PM
That's because Two-Weapon Fighting isn't actually a good idea for Rogues.
The theory is that more attacks = more opportunities for sneak attacks. However, this only works if all of the following are true:
you actually get more attacks
more attacks = more hits
you survive
Two-Weapon Fighting only gives you more attacks when you can make a full attack; the rest of the time this feat does nothing for you. Getting those extra attacks requires that you don't need to use a move action in any round, so it's quite situation-dependent.
Choosing TWF reduces your chances of hitting in several ways:
It applies at minimum a -2 penalty to all attacks.
Using it either doubles your costs for weapons, or has you using weapons with lower enhancement (so even less likely to hit).
Feat cost: Selecting Two-Weapon Fighting means you didn't select something that would provide greater benefits (like Knowledge Devotion, which increases both hit chance and damage). And the returns on further feats in the TWF tree are worse: same cost (1 feat), but less chance of hitting with each one.
The ideal main hand Rogue weapon is the rapier. Off hand weapons Rogues are proficient with can't match the rapier's threat range, which means you'll make fewer critical hits. (Or you'll incur a -4 penalty using dual rapiers, or a feat cost for Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead.)
At the start of every encounter you must be equipped with a ranged weapon, or waste vital chances to sneak attack flat-footed foes: once in the surprise round (if your Spot and Listen are good), and for a full attack in the first regular round. But Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't help if you use a two-handed ranged weapon, like a bow. So you'll only benefit from TWF if you throw things (or grab loaded hand crossbows, which amounts to the same thing). Every thrown weapon the Rogue is proficient with will incur a range penalty within the 30' sneak attack limit, so you're less likely to hit. Plus when you get to BAB +6 you'll need Quick Draw or you'll be unable to full attack with your thrown weapons: more feat cost.
Because you're going to make full attacks, you're probably going to be in melee a lot, and thus at greater risk of being killed by full counterattacks. (The other option is to take Quick Draw and throw javelins or use many hand crossbows. Though a safer approach, range penalties and poor threat ranges cause you to lose on both regular and critical hits.) Heavy melee combat means you'll want to increase your CON score, which isn't normally useful for the Rogue's class abilities. Boosting CON comes at the expense of some other ability that is useful to the class (like INT for more skill points, or WIS to boost Spot and Listen so you won't be surprised).
As I see it, Two-Weapon Fighting is an expensive trap for Rogues. It's just not worth it.
maybe it has already been mentioned. But the kukri has the same threat range as the rapier. Just 1 dice lower. 1d4/1d3 (M/S respectively)
Greenish
2010-06-17, 03:56 PM
maybe it has already been mentioned. But the kukri has the same threat range as the rapier. Just 1 dice lower. 1d4/1d3 (M/S respectively)Yes, but his point was that "[o]ff hand weapons Rogues are proficient with can't match the rapier's threat range, which means you'll make fewer critical hits".
Links
That is a good idea. I'll add the links later.
There's controversy whether Action Before Thought allows Evasion. If so, this maneuver is slightly more viable. I also greatly recommend save swap maneuvers if your DM likes forcing saves. Having them handy is usually an auto-pass 1/encounter.
There's no reason by RAW why it wouldn't work with Evasion. Action Before Thought replaces the roll with a Concentration check "to determine the save's success." Evasion says that if the rogue "makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage." If Action Before Thought reports success, then Evasion prevents all the damage.
I dislike Action Before Thought on rogues, however, because your Reflex saves are already high enough. You have to choose to use it before you know whether you've rolled a natural 1, so the only point is to prevent a 5% chance of failure, expending an action to do so. You also have to spend points on Concentration, and it prevents you from taking a better maneuver like Mind Over Body, since Fortitude actually is a problem.
You reference Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape 13) so often yet I didn't see the source or how to get it. Penetrating Strike is an alternative class feature (ACF) that replaces Trap Sense at Rogue3.
You must have missed it then. It's in the ACF section (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711257&postcount=3), under "Replaces Trap Sense."
Parra
2010-06-17, 05:26 PM
I was just looking at the Swordsage dip advice; it says that a 1 level dip (ideally taken at level 9) allows you to take 'Assassins Stance', but that stance requires 3 levels of Swordsage to take. Is there something Im missing?
Greenish
2010-06-17, 05:32 PM
I was just looking at the Swordsage dip advice; it says that a 1 level dip (ideally taken at level 9) allows you to take 'Assassins Stance', but that stance requires 3 levels of Swordsage to take. Is there something Im missing?You're missing the rules about how initiator levels for maneuvers function. "Swordsage 3" in the maneuver description means that it's a 3rd level maneuver for swordsages, so a swordsage can take it at (initiator) level 5. Non-martial adept classes (ie. non-ToB ones) advance your initiator levels at 1/2 ratio, so level 8 something/1 swordsage would have initiator level 5 (8/2+1) for swordsage maneuvers and could thus take 3rd level maneuvers. Savvy?
dextercorvia
2010-06-17, 05:36 PM
There is a debate over the line 'begins play with...' means exactly. Some people do believe that a Rogue8/SS1 is limited to 1st level stances because of that line, and others believe that it only applies to taking your first character level as Swordsage. I am ambivalent, (and could have the details of the debate wrong) due to lack of ToB.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-17, 05:45 PM
I was just looking at the Swordsage dip advice; it says that a 1 level dip (ideally taken at level 9) allows you to take 'Assassins Stance', but that stance requires 3 levels of Swordsage to take. Is there something Im missing?
Well, yes and no. Swordsage 3 is mostly an indicator of two things:
what class(es) grant the maneuver/stance
the maneuver level
Table 3-1 on page 39 of Tome of Battle includes the martial initiator level and highest-level stance correspondence, which mirrors primary spellcasting classes and spell levels. However, non-martial classes only grant ½ initiator level per class level; see the text before the table. Thus Rogue 8/Swordsage 1 would have initiator level (8∙½ + 1) = 5, which is normally enough for a 3rd-level stance.
There's a further restriction, specified in the Swordsage class description on page 16:
Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances. Thus when you begin play as a 1st level Swordsage you're restricted to a 1st-level stance, and can't choose any higher stances until Swordsage level 2. Starting with a 3rd-level stance, like Assassin's Stance, requires a house rule. So that's the hinky part.
Koury
2010-06-17, 05:46 PM
There is a debate over the line 'begins play with...' means exactly. Some people do believe that a Rogue8/SS1 is limited to 1st level stances because of that line, and others believe that it only applies to taking your first character level as Swordsage. I am ambivalent, (and could have the details of the debate wrong) due to lack of ToB.
I don't know about the RAW argument, but if they could get a level 3 stance via a feat (well, two), why couldn't they get it with an actual class level?
I've made my stance on this clear enough already; I don't see a point in arguing further. *shrug*
Fact of the matter is, ask your DM if you're not sure on anything.
dextercorvia
2010-06-17, 05:54 PM
I don't know about the RAW argument, but if they could get a level 3 stance via a feat (well, two), why couldn't they get it with an actual class level?
Two feats requires a fairly hefty investment compared to a single level dip in a martial build I'd say.
A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?
DragoonWraith
2010-06-17, 06:02 PM
Two feats requires a fairly hefty investment compared to a single level dip in a martial build I'd say.
Depends on the class. Not so much for a spellcaster, say. Two feats is a more than fair trade for a spellcasting level.
A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?
By RAW, yes.
Basically, RAW, yes, I'd say you get only a 1st level stance when taking the first level of any martial adept. However, I consider this almost as stupid as the Monk's non-proficiency with his fists, and probably wouldn't play with a DM who enforced it.
Koury
2010-06-17, 06:02 PM
Two feats requires a fairly hefty investment compared to a single level dip in a martial build I'd say.
A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?
Hehe, yeah, I actually would, unless they wanted some special style of book. :smalltongue:
I'd say two feats, especially since they both are useful, is about the same cost as an entire character level. This is all very subjective, however. :smallsmile:
Parra
2010-06-17, 06:07 PM
Savvy?
makes sense. ty
dextercorvia
2010-06-17, 07:36 PM
Hehe, yeah, I actually would, unless they wanted some special style of book. :smalltongue:
So you would rule that begin's play clauses apply after character creation? Again, I'm not trying to argue for or against. I have noticed that a lot of players assume that Rogue1/Wizard1 (going unseen seer -- so it remains relelventish to the thread) gets a spell book (even if they level mid adventure), but they don't want to apply the SS's begins play text, because it is less advantageous to do so. If I'm for anything here, it is consistency.
Koury
2010-06-17, 07:41 PM
I would let the Fgt/Wiz get his book. Whats more, I'd let him get his special book, as long as he pays for it.
I'd let a Rog/SS get higher level maneuver/stances, as long as he picked up the prereqs.
dextercorvia
2010-06-17, 07:51 PM
I would let the Fgt/Wiz get his book. Whats more, I'd let him get his special book, as long as he pays for it.
I'd let a Rog/SS get higher level maneuver/stances, as long as he picked up the prereqs.
I would just like to point out that this is an inconsistent treatment of 'begin's play'.
And since I haven't said so yet,:
Thanks for the guide PId6. I think it is a pretty good summary of the usual advice. I'm not convinced TWF is the way to go for melee Rogues, but you helped me out on my alternate idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152880), so you probably knew that.
Koury
2010-06-17, 07:52 PM
I would just like to point out that this is an inconsistent treatment of 'begin's play'.
*shrug* Keeps my players happy and having fun.
dextercorvia
2010-06-17, 07:54 PM
*shrug* Keeps my players happy and having fun.
That's what is important. I could honestly play it either way on both counts.
Thanks for the guide PId6. I think it is a pretty good summary of the usual advice. I'm not convinced TWF is the way to go for melee Rogues, but you helped me out on my alternate idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152880), so you probably knew that.
On researching, I found Overwhelming Attack monk a pretty good dip for that style of fighting, since you can completely dump Str and still use Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. If you're still building that character (unlikely, but possible), you should consider that option.
Endarire
2010-06-17, 08:07 PM
You can also colorize and format your links.
Rogue! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)
Curmudgeon
2010-06-17, 08:16 PM
A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?
I would; it's in the rules. Wizards get a free spellbook when they begin play in that class. In both this case and the Swordsage's, what they start with is listed as a class feature. When adding a new character level you always follow the Player's Handbook rules on pages 58-59. Class Features is step 9 on this list.
You can also colorize and format your links.
Rogue! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)
I don't really see a need for links to be blue. That would be more confusing with the color rating scheme, and all the links on this website are the same brownish tan color anyway.
dextercorvia
2010-06-17, 09:36 PM
On researching, I found Overwhelming Attack monk a pretty good dip for that style of fighting, since you can completely dump Str and still use Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. If you're still building that character (unlikely, but possible), you should consider that option.
I wasn't building that for a game. It's just something that I've been thinking about regarding whether TWF is worth it for SA. So I appreciate any suggestions. That is an interesting option that I hadn't considered. It makes getting Daring outlaw by lvl 6 fairly unlikely, but there is something there to think about.
My theory is that if Shock Trooper Power Attack (High Str, Dump Dex) is better than TWF without SA+Craven, it likely is still better with SA+Craven. Three attacks with 1.5xStr+ approximately 2BAB+HD+9d6 bonus damage per attack., vs 6 attacks (pairwise at a -2 vs. the corresponding brute attack) with a lower BAB and +HD+12d6 on a successful hit.
I would; it's in the rules. Wizards get a free spellbook when they begin play in that class. In both this case and the Swordsage's, what they start with is listed as a class feature. When adding a new character level you always follow the Player's Handbook rules on pages 58-59. Class Features is step 9 on this list.
I appreciate your consistency, but I expected nothing less.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-17, 11:40 PM
TWF is best served with the following choice menu items:
A one-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian is an inexpensive and tasty choice, adding Pounce to your repitoire. This allows you guaranteed full attack on the first round against an opponent. This minimizes the 'you have to full attack, which means you die' arguments
A friendly caster willing to cast Greater Magic Weapon on both of your weapons. You may wish to give them a Pearl of Power of the appropriate level for their convenience. This increases the odds of you attacking while minimizing your out-of-pocket costs for upgrading your weapon.
Along that vein, if you have an IC Bard in the party (or perhaps as a Cohort), this synergies amazingly well, as he gives morale bonuses to attack and damage.
A two-level dip in Swordsage. This has numerous advantages. First, Assassin's Stance, so you don't neglect your Sneak Attack progression. Second, Shadow Blade, because you probably dumped your Str like a smart person. Third, Baffling Defense, so he doesn't actually hit you after all. If you can combo this with Shifting Defense, you never get hit by a full attack, but that likely won't be an option for you. It also nets you Wis to AC in light armor (like Mithral Chain Shirt +1 of Shadowed and Silent Moves...), situationally useful abilities to make a flat-footed or touch attack, and other options available. An excellent garnish to go with your main dish.
Ranks in UMD, with Wand Sheaths in your weapons. This will give you access to things like Wraithstrike, Golemstrike, Gravestrike, and Vinestrike. This is an excellent first course to go with your salad.
A one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and one other Domain/Devotion of choice. Three appetizers for the price of one.
I would further like to point out that crits are nearly worthless for a SA-focused build, as your SA dice are not multiplied. Thus, you double your base weapon damage. Oh my, an extra d4 damage. I'm so happy.
I would also recommend the house Merlot to go with your choice of cheese fondue.
So, let's recap:
You actually get more attacks = yes
More attacks = more hits = yes, with all the extra bonuses and means of getting touch-attacks
You survive = yes. If they are dead, they cannot kill you.
A -2 penalty is small potatoes compared to the bonuses you are stacking
You use buffs to severely mitigate weapon cost
Unless you dip Cleric, Devotions are 1/day. So blowing a feat for 1/day ability? Not too handy. And if you dip Cleric, you trade in your domain for the Devotion anyways, so no net loss there. In exchange, you double your rate of fire. I call that worth it.
The ideal weapon for the Rogue is any damn weapon, it doesn't matter. You can sneak attack with anything. Just go with Daggers. Crits are meaningless for a SA rogue, and one extra point of damage on average isn't going to break the bank.
At the start of every combat, you Pounce and kill your target, rendering it unable to kill you in return. If you run into more trouble than you originally anticipated, you use something like a belt of Battle or Travel Devotion to get out of harm's way.
So yea, TWF is not a trap for rogues. In fact, Rogues are one of the few classes which can stack damage per hit to make it viable.
Very nicely put Shneekey. However, I'd like to point out that crits are still quite useful due to things like Knowledge Devotion, Shadow Blade, and Craven. But, since you actually get more attacks with TWF, you're going to get more crits as well. Win win.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-17, 11:57 PM
Also, one-level dip in Master of Masks for Gladiator Mask will give you proficiency in all weapons, so you can dual-wield Kukri all you like. You get your 18-20 crit ratio, and light weapon too.
I forgot how late in the PrC it takes to wear two masks at the same time, but stacking with Assassin Mask can be fun
dextercorvia
2010-06-18, 12:11 AM
Trap is not my word. Those are all good points, however every buff you state for a TWF Rogue works just as well on a THF Rogue, except that THF spends less on one Weapons than TWF spends on two equally enchanted weapons (Even with GMW) .
And by dipping CC and SS TWF is down an additional 2 BAB, even assuming the same Daring Outlaw chassis as THF is using that brings the difference between like attacks to a -4, and TWF is getting iteratives slower, so there are several levels where we are talking about 3 attacks at full vs. 4 attacks at -4 (or similar). Keep in mind that by stacking PA with Craven and Leap Attack, which is easy by 9th level Crits are worthwhile to THF guy. Even without crtis, PA for full on a TH weapon over three successful attacks+SA+Craven will out damage SA+Craven on 6.
My problem with just stacking ubercharger feats onto a rogue is that, after a point, you're really no longer a rogue anymore. It's the same thing as the question of "why don't we all play druids?" If you're just taking ubercharger feats, getting nearly full BAB, and only using rogue for a minor boost to damage, why not just go all the way and become a Frenzied Berserker or something?
The difference between THW charger and TWF rogue is the difference between rogue as an auxiliary and rogue as an essential component. It becomes a question of how much of the archetype you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of effectiveness. Ultimately, if you're willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of optimal output, you may as well play a wizard or druid and skip the rogue class completely.
Icewraith
2010-06-18, 12:49 AM
TWF is for Gestalt rogues.
Spring Attack is also for Gestalt rogues. No really. REALLY.
Generally speaking, Gestalt does melee really well. But for rogues it means you can double up with a full BAB d10/12 HD class and not worry so much about being hit in melee.
As for Spring Attack, if you're getting full rogue sneak attack from one side of your progression you can take all five levels of Tempest from Complete Adventurer to reduce your TWF penalties by 2, gain a dodge bonus to AC when attacking with 2 weapons and gain the ability to hit with both your weapons whenever you spring attack. NOW bounding assault and rapid blitz suddenly allow you to get off a near full attack-equivalent and move at the same time!
To really crank up the power: grab daring outlaw, swift hunter and swift ambusher (name may not be correct) and combine rogue, swashbuckler, ranger, scout, and tempest levels (Make sure you get a ruling from your dm on this, some don't like the idea of class combo feats in Gestalt, others don't mind so much) to get your preferred combination of maxed dodge bonus/shield of blades, maxed sneak attack and about 17/20 levels worth of skirmish, with 2-3 favored enemies. Also note swift hunter lets you apply skirmish damage to favored enemies, RAW it allows you to apply skirmish damage to even enemies normally immune to skirmish damage since specific trumps general but again check with your DM. Some people may cry "foul!" or "cheese!" due to the feats but this combination still doesn't out-power core wizard spells at the level it comes into play (around 10th, nevermind 18th), and it makes a really mobile, really effective two-weapon fighter with excellent AC and buckets of damage round after round. Even without the combo feats a rogue// swash3/fighter2/LT barb1/tempest 5 hits with both weapons, full sneak attack dice and gets to move its speed using just spring attack, never mind the other feats in the chain.
Also I don't see swift ambusher on the feat list ( I may have just missed it), another 1 level dip into scout probably loses you a sneak attack die but it gains you skirmish. While it's not as many dice, it is extra damage during rounds that require you to move, negating the loss of iterative attacks or it's just extra damage and AC when pounce-charging or spring attacking, so it's definitely a damage and survivability gain. It doesn't work with swashbuckler though, just rogue.
If you're mentioning ACFs, the shield of blades ACF from PHB2 for swashbucklers replaces the dodge bonus you get vs. a single opponent and replaces it with a dodge bonus vs everyone in the round when you attack with 2 light weapons. With daring outlaw and a level of Lion Totem Barbarian your AC will go UP in the round you charge vs. EVERYONE. Best options are twin kukris, short swords, or light maces (with desert wind dodge and/or lightning maces from complete warrior, 5% chance to get an extra attack (i.e on a threat), 10 % with impact weapons, higher if you cheese it with aptitude weapon keen short swords (20%) or keen kukris (30%)). If you have a DM who allows Kaorti Resin Keen Aptitude Weapon Kukris, he will either remain clueless about any semblance of balance, disallow them in the near future, or use them on your character in the near future, proceed at your own risk.
Also in gestalt, the Feat Rogue ACF is basically two Gestalts in one side: gain full fighter feats, rogue class features and skill points by dropping sneak attack.
TWF is for Gestalt rogues.
Spring Attack is also for Gestalt rogues. No really. REALLY.
Spring Attack really doesn't work with TWF at all. You're either using Spring Attack, or using TWF; never both. And no, Tempest isn't a good way to merge them. More on that below.
As for Spring Attack, if you're getting full rogue sneak attack from one side of your progression you can take all five levels of Tempest from Complete Adventurer to reduce your TWF penalties by 2, gain a dodge bonus to AC when attacking with 2 weapons and gain the ability to hit with both your weapons whenever you spring attack. NOW bounding assault and rapid blitz suddenly allow you to get off a near full attack-equivalent and move at the same time!
Tempest is really a terrible class, even for Gestalt. It requires a grand total of five feats, at least half of which will be utterly useless for you no matter how you fight. Its abilities amount to +3 AC, +2 attack, and Two-Weapon Spring Attack, at a cost of five levels and as many feats. In both regular and Gestalt, you have far better options than this.
When you add in Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, you have spent a total of five levels and seven feats in order to have half as many attacks as a regular TWF user. And this "combo" doesn't even complete until at least 18th level. You are far far better off just full attacking with pounce and using something like Travel Devotion to move afterward.
Also I don't see swift ambusher on the feat list
It's on the "to-add" list.
If you're mentioning ACFs, the shield of blades ACF from PHB2 for swashbucklers replaces the dodge bonus you get vs. a single opponent and replaces it with a dodge bonus vs everyone in the round when you attack with 2 light weapons.
That's a pretty good ACF. I've added a note in the multiclassing section for Swashbuckler.
dextercorvia
2010-06-18, 08:23 AM
My problem with just stacking ubercharger feats onto a rogue is that, after a point, you're really no longer a rogue anymore. It's the same thing as the question of "why don't we all play druids?" If you're just taking ubercharger feats, getting nearly full BAB, and only using rogue for a minor boost to damage, why not just go all the way and become a Frenzied Berserker or something?
The difference between THW charger and TWF rogue is the difference between rogue as an auxiliary and rogue as an essential component. It becomes a question of how much of the archetype you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of effectiveness. Ultimately, if you're willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of optimal output, you may as well play a wizard or druid and skip the rogue class completely.
There are no fewer rogue levels in my build than in schneeky's. There is also nothing inherently rogueish about TWF, except for the perception that it gets more SA. I simply replace the TWF tree with 4 feats that admittedly give greater combat effect.
I was incorrect earlier when I said Leap attack at 9, my build gets it at 10 on the second fighter level. But the point remains that even if a TWF build gets twice as many attacks(which it won't at every level), a THW dealing twice as much damage per attack, will hit more often, and significantly rule on a crit. The trick is to get that double damage, I think I'm close, but I'm still a handful of damage short.
Greenish
2010-06-18, 09:26 AM
I was incorrect earlier when I said Leap attack at 9, my build gets it at 10 on the second fighter level.Leap Attack is not a fighter feat.
[Edit]: The popular image of a rogue isn't one charging into the combat with a huge twohander. Double daggers (for example) are inherently more rogueish than a falchion.
DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 09:29 AM
There are no fewer rogue levels in my build than in schneeky's. There is also nothing inherently rogueish about TWF, except for the perception that it gets more SA. I simply replace the TWF tree with 4 feats that admittedly give greater combat effect.
I was incorrect earlier when I said Leap attack at 9, my build gets it at 10 on the second fighter level. But the point remains that even if a TWF build gets twice as many attacks(which it won't at every level), a THW dealing twice as much damage per attack, will hit more often, and significantly rule on a crit. The trick is to get that double damage, I think I'm close, but I'm still a handful of damage short.
Except your damage is not, primarily, coming from Sneak Attack, it's coming from standard charging. At that point, you could ditch the Rogue and build a better charger not using one.
Dexam
2010-06-18, 10:12 AM
How has a Rogue's Handbook gone this far without mention of the Neraphim race and the Neraph Charge (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Charge) and Neraph_Throw (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Throw) feats, all from Planar Handbook?
The feats are somewhat skill point intensive, unless you take a Planar Rogue substitution level or multiclass into a class with Knowledge(The Planes) as a class skill.
The Neraphim race, on the other hand:
- Outsider type. Very handy for ignoring those humanoid-affecting spells like Dominate Person and Sleep; no need to eat or sleep; and proficiency in all martial weapons.
- Darkvision 60'. Always useful.
- +5 racial bonus to Jump checks. Pretty meh, really.
- +2 Natural Armour. Yes please!
- Weapon Familiarity with annulat. Only useful if you're using a thrown-weapon rogue or want to do an Exotic Weapon Master build.
- +2 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks. What rogue doesn't want these?
- Neraph Camouflage (Ex). The Neraph Charge and Neraph Throw feats in a single racial ability. One free sneak attack per opponent per encounter (assuming you charge or use a thrown weapon). Very useful when fighting multiple opponents and you want to share the Sneak Attack love.
- LA +0.
How has a Rogue's Handbook gone this far without mention of the Neraphim race and the Neraph Charge (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Charge) and Neraph_Throw (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Throw) feats, all from Planar Handbook?
Very interesting feats. Neraph Charge is unfortunately extremely MAD-inducing, but it can work very nicely with pounce. Neraph Throw is a lot worse since it only works on one attack and not on multiples, but it can still be useful. I'll add both and Neraphim once I get some time.
Amphetryon
2010-06-18, 02:53 PM
Telling Blow, from PH2, makes a crit-Rogue pretty happy.
lsfreak
2010-06-18, 04:06 PM
Telling Blow, from PH2, makes a crit-Rogue pretty happy.
The problem is it does nothing for any attack that's already a sneak attack - at most it takes your non-SA attacks and makes 25% of them SA. That's a pretty poor return, unless you have problems getting SA in the first place, in which case something like Wild Cohort (feated with Island of Blades) might well be a better investment.
Unless of course your DM allows Telling Blow to stack with normal SA (sneak attack turns out to be a crit, and therefore gets double SA damage).
Da Beast
2010-06-18, 07:05 PM
Nice guide, rogues are awesome. Any chance of seeing the psychic rogue worked in?
Nice guide, rogues are awesome. Any chance of seeing the psychic rogue worked in?
Thanks. I plan on adding it eventually. It's pretty low on the (big big) list though, so don't hold your breath. :smallwink:
Curmudgeon
2010-06-18, 07:38 PM
The problem is it does nothing for any attack that's already a sneak attack - at most it takes your non-SA attacks and makes 25% of them SA.
That's in the right ballpark, but the extra hit maximum is actually 28.5% (.3 for 15-20 threat range x .95 if anything but a 1 confirms). In my experience, Telling Blow is going to be helpful if your DM likes to keep things interesting, with encounters past 30', or concealment. Telling Blow always triggers sneak attack on a critical hit, so the usual distance and environmental limits are ignored. (It works the same for skirmish: no 10' movement required.)
While the extra sneak attack hit percentage gain for Telling Blow maxes out at 28.5%, do note that the extra sneak attack damage gain is greater with Craven. Any hit that's a critical and is also a sneak attack (which is all of them, with Telling Blow) will add sneak attack dice just once, but weapon dice and any constants get multiplied. Craven boosts sneak attack damage by +1/level from the ~1.75/level dice amount: more than 50% increase without a critical, and more than 100% increase on a critical. Put that all together, and you're looking at a maximum damage percentage increase of about 39% with Telling Blow and Craven, compared to Craven alone.
You're not likely to be fighting 100% of the time with your keen rapier in concealment, but it's nice to have some extra oomph when you do.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-18, 09:40 PM
That's in the right ballpark, but the extra hit maximum is actually 28.5% (.3 for 15-20 threat range x .95 if anything but a 1 confirms). In my experience, Telling Blow is going to be helpful if your DM likes to keep things interesting, with encounters past 30', or concealment. Telling Blow always triggers sneak attack on a critical hit, so the usual distance and environmental limits are ignored. (It works the same for skirmish: no 10' movement required.)
While the extra sneak attack hit percentage gain for Telling Blow maxes out at 28.5%, do note that the extra sneak attack damage gain is greater with Craven. Any hit that's a critical and is also a sneak attack (which is all of them, with Telling Blow) will add sneak attack dice just once, but weapon dice and any constants get multiplied. Craven boosts sneak attack damage by +1/level from the ~1.75/level dice amount: more than 50% increase without a critical, and more than 100% increase on a critical. Put that all together, and you're looking at a maximum damage percentage increase of about 39% with Telling Blow and Craven, compared to Craven alone.
You're not likely to be fighting 100% of the time with your keen rapier in concealment, but it's nice to have some extra oomph when you do.
This is assuming that you would not have normally had sneak attack ability in the first place from every single crit. Personally, I tend to set up my builds in ways that they will never be unable to sneak attack, so Telling Blow is completely meaningless. ~28% of the time, I get to do what I was going to do anyways.. net sum zero gain
Curmudgeon
2010-06-18, 10:19 PM
Personally, I tend to set up my builds in ways that they will never be unable to sneak attack, so Telling Blow is completely meaningless.
I'm curious how you go about doing that. How do you sneak attack when there's fog providing concealment, for instance?
I'm curious how you go about doing that. How do you sneak attack when there's fog providing concealment, for instance?
Gust of Wind?
Curmudgeon
2010-06-19, 12:31 AM
Gust of Wind?
I'm not talking about a small amount of tactical concealment from Fog Cloud; I'm talking about a Druid using Control Weather to make fog throughout a 6 mile diameter circle. Gust of Wind would just move the local foggy air about, replacing it with more foggy air from the upwind direction (i.e., the other side of the caster).
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-19, 08:09 AM
I'm not talking about a small amount of tactical concealment from Fog Cloud; I'm talking about a Druid using Control Weather to make fog throughout a 6 mile diameter circle. Gust of Wind would just move the local foggy air about, replacing it with more foggy air from the upwind direction (i.e., the other side of the caster).
Several ways.
1) Scroll of MDJ. As the listed duration is longer than Instant, you can simply remove the Control Weather effect with a dispel effect.
2) Negate concealment modifiers less than Total with wands of True Strike, or use several other toys, which also remove modifiers.
3) Don't rely on actual vision to attack with. Mindsight and Touchsight both work as viable means of effectively locating your opponent without worrying about such trivialities as fog. However, you did a good job of choosing an effect one cannot simply use True Sight to bypass, which works on 90% of everything else someone may use to generate concealment modifiers. Pierce Magical Concealment also works on most things.
4) Don't let them prepare. With Control Weather, you let an opponent caster get 20 minutes of prep time to drop down Control Weather and to let the effect take place (10 min each). Dude could have killed you ninteen minutes ago if he was bothering to try. It's called Mind Blank. Learn it, love it, live it, and don't let them know you are coming. Darkstalker is also your friend.
EDIT: This is something which needs to be put into the handbook: how to sneak attack, even when your opponent is desperately trying to keep you from doing so...
Curmudgeon
2010-06-19, 10:32 AM
1) Scroll of MDJ. As the listed duration is longer than Instant, you can simply remove the Control Weather effect with a dispel effect.
That's a pretty expensive remedy, assuming it actually stops the spell rather than just ending its effects in close range. Plus it only keeps the Druid from continuing the conditions to encourage fog; it does nothing to change the existing weather. Left on its own it usually takes some hours for fog to dissipate.
4) Don't let them prepare. With Control Weather, you let an opponent caster get 20 minutes of prep time to drop down Control Weather and to let the effect take place (10 min each). Dude could have killed you ninteen minutes ago if he was bothering to try. It's called Mind Blank. Learn it, love it, live it, and don't let them know you are coming. Darkstalker is also your friend.
The Druid could be anywhere within 2-3 miles when they start this spell, indistinguishable from any other bird flying about with wild shape, and you'll still be in the area of effect. How are you going to even know that the fog is from Control Weather and not naturally occurring?
true_shinken
2010-06-19, 11:41 AM
I was thinking... would the Cursed Blade spell make Sickening/Terrifying Strike last longer than usual?
Toliudar
2010-06-19, 11:50 AM
I'm not talking about a small amount of tactical concealment from Fog Cloud; I'm talking about a Druid using Control Weather to make fog throughout a 6 mile diameter circle. Gust of Wind would just move the local foggy air about, replacing it with more foggy air from the upwind direction (i.e., the other side of the caster).
I don't believe that the latter statement is RAW. From the first sentence of Gust of Wind:
This spell creates a severe blast of air (approximately 50 mph) that originates from you, affecting all creatures in its path.
This seems to suggest to me that the source of the air is not the existing air behind the caster, but additional air created by the spell. A DM would be free to houserule how quickly the druid spell (or the natural fog) would fill in the affected space, but I think it would be entirely reasonable to get a round or two of clear air out of the spell.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-19, 05:08 PM
This seems to suggest to me that the source of the air is not the existing air behind the caster, but additional air created by the spell. A DM would be free to houserule how quickly the druid spell (or the natural fog) would fill in the affected space, but I think it would be entirely reasonable to get a round or two of clear air out of the spell.
The source of the air doesn't need to be behind the caster. For a 50 MPH wind to arise without using existing air, its source must have significantly more pressure than the ambient air. That means that air behind and beside the wind source will be sucked along due to the pressure differential. As the Gust moves forward, new air alongside the line will be sucked in as well, creating vortices that will continue to circulate air after the spell ends. You'll get a slight reduction in concealment while the Gust of Wind is in effect, but that 1 square (5') wide line will mix with ambient air in seconds.
Plus, unless you can already make out the target you want a clear line of sight to, your chances of randomly picking the right 5' wide line in miles of fog are pretty meager.
Lycar
2010-06-19, 06:33 PM
I don't want to read through all 6 pages first, so if this has been mentioned before, apologies:
Thugs do not get a fighter bonus feat at 1st level. So you want to stick with standard fighter if you want to go the 'sneak attack fighter variant' route for that extra d6 sneak attack.
Lycar
EDIT: This is something which needs to be put into the handbook: how to sneak attack, even when your opponent is desperately trying to keep you from doing so...
Added to the list. I probably won't have much time to update next week though.
I was thinking... would the Cursed Blade spell make Sickening/Terrifying Strike last longer than usual?
No; the spell doesn't have any interaction with those abilities. It might make sense for them to interact, but that requires DM judgment and is solidly outside the rules.
Thugs do not get a fighter bonus feat at 1st level. So you want to stick with standard fighter if you want to go the 'sneak attack fighter variant' route for that extra d6 sneak attack.
ACFs do not work like that. The Sneak Attack variant trades away all of your Bonus Feats for Sneak Attack progression. The Thug variant trades away your first Bonus Feat, which normally means that you can't take it along with the Sneak Attack ACF at all. However, since the Sneak Attack variant says explicitly (here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)) that it can be combined with the Thug variant, that means you can use both at once and you don't actually lose anything by taking it (since you're trading the same Bonus Feat away twice; that doesn't affect your Sneak Attack progression at all).
Lycar
2010-06-19, 07:29 PM
ACFs do not work like that. The Sneak Attack variant trades away all of your Bonus Feats for Sneak Attack progression. The Thug variant trades away your first Bonus Feat, which normally means that you can't take it along with the Sneak Attack ACF at all. However, since the Sneak Attack variant says explicitly (here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)) that it can be combined with the Thug variant, that means you can use both at once and you don't actually lose anything by taking it (since you're trading the same Bonus Feat away twice; that doesn't affect your Sneak Attack progression at all).
Yes, of course you can combine Thug with the SA fighter.
The problem is that the Thug doesn't get a bonus feat at 1st level. So it can not bet traded in for a die of SA.
And you can't argue that you convert to SA first and then go Thug to keep that die of SA either, because that is still an exchanged bonus feat, which the Thug doesn't get at 1st level.
In other words: You can't trade away the same thing twice. Once its gone, its gone.
Don't get me wrong, I like Rogues and are actually quite fond of Thugs too. But that would be getting something for nothing and that is something I am absolutely opposed against.
Of course, if you are the DM of your game you can houserule it that way and gods know, the non-casters can use all the help they can get.
So you should really add the caveat 'ask your DM about his interpretation' or something along that line.
Lycar
Greenish
2010-06-19, 07:31 PM
Yes, of course you can combine Thug with the SA fighter.
The problem is that the Thug doesn't get a bonus feat at 1st level. So it can not bet traded in for a die of SA.
And you can't argue that you convert to SA first and then go Thug to keep that die of SA either, because that is still an exchanged bonus feat, which the Thug doesn't get at 1st level.
In other words: You can't trade away the same thing twice. Once its gone, its gone.
Don't get me wrong, I like Rogues and are actually quite fond of Thugs too. But that would be getting something for nothing and that is something I am absolutely opposed against.
Of course, if you are the DM of your game you can houserule it that way and gods know, the non-casters can use all the help they can get.
So you should really add the caveat 'ask your DM about his interpretation' or something along that line.
LycarYou don't trade each individual bonus feat to SA dice, you trade all of them, the ability to gain bonus feats to rogue's SA progression.
Lycar
2010-06-19, 07:37 PM
You don't trade each individual bonus feat to SA dice, you trade all of them, the ability to gain bonus feats to rogue's SA progression.
You do not get the rogue's SA progression! A rogue gets a die of SA at 1st level and then every odd level thereafter. A SA fighter gets a die of SA every time he would have gotten a fighter bonus feat. That is at 1st level and then every even level thereafter.
The Thug trades in his 1st level bonus feat (and some armour/shield proficiencies) for better skills. Thus a Thug only gets fighter bonus feats ad every even level. And therefore SA dice at every even level.
The problem is just that the Thug only has 10 of them, not 11 like the regular fighter.
Lycar
Greenish
2010-06-19, 07:41 PM
Sure, that is exactly what I am sayingNo, it's not. With the SA fighter variant, you don't get any bonus feats, but you get rogue's SA progression.
That is to say, in 20 levels you get 10 SA for your bonus feats, regardless of how many of those you had.
Lycar
2010-06-19, 07:46 PM
Okay, I see where the confusion comes from... the SRD just says that the SA variant fighter loses his bonus feats and gets sneak attack (as rogue) instead. Let me look up the printed version again...
Edit: Also way to answer my post while I'm still busy editing it... :smalltongue:
Edit2: Huh, looking this up in the UA book yields the same result. Could have sworn they said the SA dice replace the bonus feats. Oh well, my bad then.
Lycar
ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 07:53 PM
Okay, I see where the confusion comes from... the SRD just says that the SA variant fighter loses his bonus feats and gets sneak attack (as rogue) instead. Let me look up the printed version again...
Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This
variant can also be combined with the thug variant described
earlier in this chapter.
Gain: Sneak attack (as rogue).
Lose: Bonus feats.
Looks like you're wrong. Thug+SA Fighter gets 11, just like regular old SA Fighter.
Well, the issue is entirely cleared up while I was typing up my extremely wordy response. I need to type faster next time. :smalltongue:
Lycar
2010-06-19, 08:00 PM
Looks like you're wrong. Thug+SA Fighter gets 11, just like regular old SA Fighter.
Huh, that can't be right. If he gets the normal rogue progression, it is one die of SA every odd level for a total of 10d6 at lv. 19/20.
If it is SA instead of bonus feats, then fighter gets a die of SA at level 1, 2 and every even level for a total of 11d6 at 20. Which would make a 2-level-dip totally worthwhile, lost skill points be damned. But that does not seem to be the way it works.
Lycar
Greenish
2010-06-19, 08:01 PM
Looks like you're wrong. Thug+SA Fighter gets 11, just like regular old SA Fighter.Eleven? Why does SA fighter get more SA than a rogue?
ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 08:03 PM
Huh, that can't be right. If he gets the normal rogue progression, it is one die of SA every odd level for a total of 10d6 at lv. 19/20.
For some reason I thought Thug got Sneak Attack at 1st level instead of Urban Tracking.
EDIT:
Eleven? Why does SA fighter get more SA than a rogue?
See above.
Greenish
2010-06-19, 08:05 PM
For some reason I thought Thug got Sneak Attack at 1st level instead of Urban Tracking.Thug doesn't get Urban Tracking at 1st level.
A thug doesn't gain the normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level. Also, add Urban Tracking to the list of fighter bonus feats available to the thug.
ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 08:15 PM
Thug doesn't get Urban Tracking at 1st level.
Guess I read it wrong. Either way, it's a moot point as far as I'm concerned.
Nidogg
2010-06-20, 05:17 AM
No mention of the mounteback? Great one for social rouges/invisible blades (int-bluff... nice) Otherwise an awesome handbook for my current non TWF rouge/ mounteback/ sooon to be invisible blade...
No mention of the mounteback? Great one for social rouges/invisible blades (int-bluff... nice) Otherwise an awesome handbook for my current non TWF rouge/ mounteback/ sooon to be invisible blade...
I'll look into it and add it to the list.
true_shinken
2010-06-20, 09:35 AM
I think the old Rouge joke should be mentioned in the guide. It's such a common typo...
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-20, 12:47 PM
The source of the air doesn't need to be behind the caster. For a 50 MPH wind to arise without using existing air, its source must have significantly more pressure than the ambient air. That means that air behind and beside the wind source will be sucked along due to the pressure differential. As the Gust moves forward, new air alongside the line will be sucked in as well, creating vortices that will continue to circulate air after the spell ends. You'll get a slight reduction in concealment while the Gust of Wind is in effect, but that 1 square (5') wide line will mix with ambient air in seconds.
Plus, unless you can already make out the target you want a clear line of sight to, your chances of randomly picking the right 5' wide line in miles of fog are pretty meager.
Every time you bring physics into D&D... well, you know the saying.
If that were true, you could simply use a Fireball effect to remove fog, because it would burn it off. Or use a Sleet Storm spell, because it would precipitate it out.
THIS IS NOT THE REAL WORLD. The laws of Physics DO NOT APPLY in the realm of D&D.
ArcanistSupreme
2010-06-20, 01:10 PM
Maybe I missed it, but how does invisible blade rank among rogue PrCs?
Curmudgeon
2010-06-20, 01:10 PM
Every time you bring physics into D&D... well, you know the saying.
...
THIS IS NOT THE REAL WORLD. The laws of Physics DO NOT APPLY in the realm of D&D. They generally do, if you're following the rules.
This section on world-building assumes that your campaign is set in a fairly realistic world. That is to say that while wizards cast spells, deities channel power to clerics, and dragons raze villages, the world is round, the laws of physics are applicable, and most people act like real people. The reason for this assumption is that unless they are told otherwise, this situation is what your players expect.
lsfreak
2010-06-20, 03:05 PM
Maybe I missed it, but how does invisible blade rank among rogue PrCs?
If you get rid of the inane requirements for it and replace it with something sane, it's pretty good, especially for a rogue with a dip in monk (though note that the feint becomes a swift action with errata). As written, it requires useless feats on top of an already-feat-heavy class.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-20, 03:18 PM
If you get rid of the inane requirements for it and replace it with something sane, it's pretty good, especially for a rogue with a dip in monk (though note that the feint becomes a swift action with errata).
That's not right. It's still a free action, with a once per round limitation. That means you can cast a swift action spell, or trigger one from a wand, and also use Uncanny Feint in one round.
lsfreak
2010-06-20, 03:30 PM
Ah, okay, must have misremembered. Significantly better than a swift action, noticeably worse than as-printed.
Maybe I missed it, but how does invisible blade rank among rogue PrCs?
It's in the PrC section. The requirements suck, but the benefits are decent, though the errata nerf is unfortunate. As lsfreak said, a 2 level dip in Monk goes very well with it (especially if you take the Carmendine Monk feat).
Icewraith
2010-06-21, 09:28 PM
@ PId6
If you've managed to get near-full sneak attack and a good chunk of skirmish what spring attack does is allow you to always maneuver into position to use both damage sources even if your opponent is doing their best to not cooperate. A number of five foot steps, depending on positioning, will be enough for whatever it is you need to damage to mess up your full attack for a round but still be close enough to disallow charging.
Also, what bounding assault and rapid blitz do is they break one of the key limitations on a standard action attack: not getting your iterative (-5, -10) attacks and so forth. What two-weapon spring attack does is it is one of two ways I know off the top of my head to allow an off-hand attack and a main hand attack with a standard action (the other is a terrible feat). The interaction of the two abilities isn't very well defined since PHB II, which introduced the expanded spring attack feats, was published a couple years after complete adventurer. By strict RAW, at the very least it allows for +20/+20/+15/+10 attack with a standard action that allows you to move before and after the attacks and doesn't provoke AOOs. By what I'm starting to call "AYD" or "Ask Your DM" you have an extremely strong argument to get a +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 (assuming you've kept full BAB on one gestalt side) standard action spring attack.
By keeping up full or near-full sneak attack and skirmish each of those attacks will have a ton of D6 riding on them, a level of LT Barb means you can either full attack and move to a single target or you can move on to other enemies if you think you'll kill your opponent before you've gotten half your attacks off.
Yes it's feat heavy, but if we're talking Gestalt, you can get a number of important feats from a 2-level fighter dip, a 2 level ranger dip, scout levels divisible by four (IIRC), being human, flaws if your DM allows them, etc. Note that these are all full BAB classes that you'd want to take anyway, along with at least three levels of Swashbuckler. This is why I specifically mentioned Gestalt, because it's true you don't normally have the feats to do all this and get a decent number of sneak attack dice to put damage behind your attacks. However it's a build that virtually guarantees you'll be able to get off your first four attacks (assuming AYD, RAW can go either way) and at higher levels your first six, and you have the freedom to maneuver to make them all sneak attacks AND skirmish attacks.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-21, 11:44 PM
@ PId6
If you've managed to get near-full sneak attack and a good chunk of skirmish what spring attack does is allow you to always maneuver into position to use both damage sources even if your opponent is doing their best to not cooperate. A number of five foot steps, depending on positioning, will be enough for whatever it is you need to damage to mess up your full attack for a round but still be close enough to disallow charging. The only problem is that you only get one shot, rather than a full attack by using things like Travel Devotion, Belt of Battle, Pounce, or other means of getting a full attack and moving more than 10'. Heck, Training Dummy of the Master.
Also, what bounding assault and rapid blitz do is they break one of the key limitations on a standard action attack: not getting your iterative (-5, -10) attacks and so forth. What two-weapon spring attack does is it is one of two ways I know off the top of my head to allow an off-hand attack and a main hand attack with a standard action (the other is a terrible feat). The interaction of the two abilities isn't very well defined since PHB II, which introduced the expanded spring attack feats, was published a couple years after complete adventurer. By strict RAW, at the very least it allows for +20/+20/+15/+10 attack with a standard action that allows you to move before and after the attacks and doesn't provoke AOOs. By what I'm starting to call "AYD" or "Ask Your DM" you have an extremely strong argument to get a +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 (assuming you've kept full BAB on one gestalt side) standard action spring attack. That's all very well and good for Gestalt, assuming you can manage it, but that isn't very viable for most games being run. For a regular game, those feats are nearly worthless because you only get the BAB to qualify very late in your career.
By keeping up full or near-full sneak attack and skirmish each of those attacks will have a ton of D6 riding on them, a level of LT Barb means you can either full attack and move to a single target or you can move on to other enemies if you think you'll kill your opponent before you've gotten half your attacks off. You can't pounce AND Spring Attack. Charge is a full-round action. So is Spring Attack. Mutually exclusive.
Yes it's feat heavy, but if we're talking Gestalt, you can get a number of important feats from a 2-level fighter dip, a 2 level ranger dip, scout levels divisible by four (IIRC), being human, flaws if your DM allows them, etc. Note that these are all full BAB classes that you'd want to take anyway, along with at least three levels of Swashbuckler. This is why I specifically mentioned Gestalt, because it's true you don't normally have the feats to do all this and get a decent number of sneak attack dice to put damage behind your attacks. However it's a build that virtually guarantees you'll be able to get off your first four attacks (assuming AYD, RAW can go either way) and at higher levels your first six, and you have the freedom to maneuver to make them all sneak attacks AND skirmish attacks.
Again, you are talking gestalt, which almost never happens.
Zen Master
2010-06-22, 10:33 AM
A friend of mine once made a strength based rogue - focused on high attack bonus, so more SA's actually land, as well as crits and tripping (with a halberd, as I recall). Despite being build on a bugbear, it was easily the most powerful character in the group - which was however, fairly un-optimized.
I wonder if anyone has done anything similar? And if it would be valuable to the guide?
DragoonWraith
2010-06-22, 10:50 AM
A friend of mine once made a strength based rogue - focused on high attack bonus, so more SA's actually land, as well as crits and tripping (with a halberd, as I recall). Despite being build on a bugbear, it was easily the most powerful character in the group - which was however, fairly un-optimized.
I wonder if anyone has done anything similar? And if it would be valuable to the guide?
While that could easily be effective, it's not taking great advantage of the Sneak Attack, and could be done better by a more melee-focused build, really. So while it works, it's kind of questionably "Rogue", since it's more a 2h Weapon build with some Sneak Attack dice tacked on.
Zen Master
2010-06-25, 05:50 AM
While that could easily be effective, it's not taking great advantage of the Sneak Attack, and could be done better by a more melee-focused build, really. So while it works, it's kind of questionably "Rogue", since it's more a 2h Weapon build with some Sneak Attack dice tacked on.
Well, yea - but no. Not the way my buddy and I envisioned it. It was kinda complicated tho - feat intensive, so to speak.
The trick we wanted to do was make a high-strength rogue in plate - capable of getting sneak attacks on tripped, flanked, surprised or otherwise dex-denied enemies. High strength plus improved attack bonus basically meant more sneak attacks actually landing - while still maintaining a rogue-ish feel.
Naturally, I don't remember the build.
Greenish
2010-06-25, 06:57 AM
The trick we wanted to do was make a high-strength rogue in plate - capable of getting sneak attacks on tripped, flanked, surprised or otherwise dex-denied enemies.Tripping doesn't cause the target to lose it's dex to AC, nor does it allow SA alone.
High strength plus improved attack bonus basically meant more sneak attacks actually landing - while still maintaining a rogue-ish feel.Walking around in full plate with a halberd doesn't sound rogue-ish at all to me.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-25, 07:25 AM
The only problem is that you only get one shot, rather than a full attack by using things like Travel Devotion, Belt of Battle, Pounce, or other means of getting a full attack and moving more than 10'.
The alternative I recommend here is Snap Kick, because you can add an unarmed attack to any of these melee attacks:
standard action attack
full attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attack
For the cost of one feat and some gp you can double the number of attacks you make on all normally single-hit attacks, including Spring Attack. (You can buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite in a variety of items that grant the feat.) Snap Kick pays off in more situations than pounce does. You can't use pounce on an AoO or a bonus attack, can you?
Also two corrections. With a Belt of Battle to add a move action, you can use the full attack action with Spring Attack.
You can't pounce AND Spring Attack. Charge is a full-round action. So is Spring Attack. That's wrong, too. Spring Attack is an attack action (of undefined type) and a split move action. See Rules Compendium page 13.
Zen Master
2010-06-25, 03:20 PM
Tripping doesn't cause the target to lose it's dex to AC, nor does it allow SA alone.
True. Can't ever hurt tho.
Walking around in full plate with a halberd doesn't sound rogue-ish at all to me.
Well no - I can see that. That particular character was very situation ... or planning ... based. He had a set of heavy armor, and did man the frontline sometimes. He also had a chainshirt, and sometimes went without armor at all.
Rogues can be many things - thugs, for instance. But you're right, there is something rather un-rogue'ish in wearing plate armor.
The build itself wasn't bad tho - and I'm quite sure someone here could improve on it. (actually, by some peoples standards it would have rated as abysmal, I guess - but it was easily the most powerful character in the group)
Jorda75
2010-06-25, 03:23 PM
Anyone before mention the Precise Strike feat from Expanded Psionics HB or the grapple and stab/claw strategy? Just curious. :smallamused:
Curmudgeon
2010-06-25, 07:25 PM
Anyone before mention the Precise Strike feat from Expanded Psionics HB
Assuming you're actually referring to Deadly Precision (since there's no "Precise Strike" feat there), the only mention should be that it's a bad choice.
Deadly Precision lets you reroll 1s on sneak attack dice. That means an average boost from 3.5 per d6 to 3.917. Since Rogues get 1d6 every other level, that's a gain of +0.21 points of damage per level. Compare that to Craven, which gives +1 point of damage per level, and you'll see that Deadly Precision is 5 times worse.
lsfreak
2010-06-25, 08:00 PM
Deadly Precision lets you reroll 1s on sneak attack dice. That means an average boost from 3.5 per d6 to 3.917. Since Rogues get 1d6 every other level, that's a gain of +0.21 points of damage per level. Compare that to Craven, which gives +1 point of damage per level, and you'll see that Deadly Precision is 5 times worse.
Not to mention you can get the rerolling of 1's, plus a +2DC to your death attack (for assassins and the like) and an extra +2 profane bonus to damage and attacks against flat-footed targets, for 8000gp from bracers of murder (Drow of the Underdark). That's still probably not worth it for the damage benefits (flat-footed only sucks compared to denied Dex), unless you're in a stealth campaign where you can actually use your death attack.
There is, however, a feat in Dragon Compendium that's called Precise Strike. Trade a number of sneak attack dice from all your attacks, and add +1 to your attack roll for each die (per attack) sacrificed. Potentially worthwhile if you're running around with tons of +d6 and not enough +atk and want to land Crippling Strike/Staggering Strike/Wounding when your DM optimizes monsters to insane levels of AC, or with crazy Hunter's Eye boosting. There's also the issue that it's Dragon material.
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 08:01 PM
A supplemental guide on how to apply said fistful of d6's can now be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157722)
A supplemental guide on how to apply said fistful of d6's can now be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157722)
Looks pretty good. I've added a link to it in the links section. I'll add it to other places and incorporate some of the advice once I do a more comprehensive update next week (been fairly busy this week).
ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 08:38 PM
Looks pretty good. I've added a link to it in the links section. I'll add it to other places and incorporate some of the advice once I do a more comprehensive update next week (been fairly busy this week).
Yea, it'll get more comprehensive when I get a chance to fluff it out
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-28, 12:11 PM
I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, so sorry if they did, but the bonus feat special ability should be marked as totally amazing. By RAW, you can take any feat, ignoring pre-requisites, which means if you start at say, level 10, you can directly take perfect two-weapon fighting skipping all the rest.
lsfreak
2010-06-28, 12:16 PM
I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, so sorry if they did, but the bonus feat special ability should be marked as totally amazing. By RAW, you can take any feat, ignoring pre-requisites, which means if you start at say, level 10, you can directly take perfect two-weapon fighting skipping all the rest.
I'm not sure where you're getting that. Unless specifically noted as ignoring requirements, all feats need them, regardless if they're bonus feats or not.
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
[Noticeable lack of bolding]
Koury
2010-06-28, 12:29 PM
A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
[Noticeable lack of bolding]
Fixed! :smalltongue:
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-28, 02:39 PM
Quoted from the Monster Manual, page 7.
"Creatures often do not have pre-requisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."
That is the only time "bonus feat" is defined, and as such those are the rules for gaining bonus feats unless specifically written otherwise. You'll notice any other class which grants a bonus feat, like the fighter, scout, warblade, etc., has the clause that you must still meet pre-requisites for that feat. This one doesn't. I will admit though, this is extremely cheesy and twisted, but may be worth mentioning.
And before someone says "Creatures aren't characters", DnD would not work under that assumption, at all.
lsfreak
2010-06-28, 03:01 PM
Quoted from the Monster Manual, page 7.
"Creatures often do not have pre-requisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."
That is the only time "bonus feat" is defined, and as such those are the rules for gaining bonus feats unless specifically written otherwise. You'll notice any other class which grants a bonus feat, like the fighter, scout, warblade, etc., has the clause that you must still meet pre-requisites for that feat. This one doesn't. I will admit though, this is extremely cheesy and twisted, but may be worth mentioning.
You forgot the rest of the passage, however.
Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.
The passage only applies to bonus feats marked with a superscript B, and thus, those found in monster entries.
Gametime
2010-06-28, 03:01 PM
Quoted from the Monster Manual, page 7.
"Creatures often do not have pre-requisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."
That is the only time "bonus feat" is defined, and as such those are the rules for gaining bonus feats unless specifically written otherwise. You'll notice any other class which grants a bonus feat, like the fighter, scout, warblade, etc., has the clause that you must still meet pre-requisites for that feat. This one doesn't. I will admit though, this is extremely cheesy and twisted, but may be worth mentioning.
In a section devoted explicitly to reading monster stat blocks. Are there any monster stat blocks where a monster with rogue class levels has selected a feat it does not qualify for as a rogue bonus feat? Because, if not, I don't think the support is there.
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-28, 03:14 PM
In a section devoted explicitly to reading monster stat blocks. Are there any monster stat blocks where a monster with rogue class levels has selected a feat it does not qualify for as a rogue bonus feat? Because, if not, I don't think the support is there.
Except, it specifically states creatures, and guess what? Human rogues are creatures. As for the superscript B, how does that have anything to do with it? That doesn't define Bonus Feat, it just helps DMs identify it when they read up a monster stat block so the players don't go "Hey, that monster has too many feats." I can just mark it with superscript B on my sheet if I really wanted to.
More on that. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD_talk:Rogue)
Gametime
2010-06-28, 03:38 PM
Except, it specifically states creatures, and guess what? Human rogues are creatures. As for the superscript B, how does that have anything to do with it? That doesn't define Bonus Feat, it just helps DMs identify it when they read up a monster stat block so the players don't go "Hey, that monster has too many feats." I can just mark it with superscript B on my sheet if I really wanted to.
More on that. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD_talk:Rogue)
It specifically states that a creature may already have a bonus feat in its pre-rendered statblock, and that if it does, it need not meet the prerequisites for that feat. It goes on to say that these feats cannot be customized, making it clear that these feats are racial feats and not simply bonus feats derived from a list.
If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats.
Also, the preceding section explains the exact scope of this.
This introduction explains how to read each creature’s write-up.
That's it. That's all that the rules contained there apply to: the creature write-ups.
Also, despite your insistence that rogues are creatures, the book is clearly using the word as a synonym for "monster," and both are distinguished from player characters.
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does
A monster is not a character, and rules that apply to monsters (as is the case with this section) do not necessarily apply to characters.
Finally, even if you don't buy any of the above, I offer this.
Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
The Monster Manual, even if it does apply here to player characters, only lets you use a bonus feat you already have even if you do not meet the prerequisites. It says nothing about gaining the feat - since the language implies that the monster bonus feats are racial, this is not surprising - and so a character cannot select the bonus feats for which they do not qualify.
If this last interpretation is the only valid one, however, it would mean you could qualify for a bonus feat, select it, and then dump the prerequisites without losing access to the bonus feat.
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-28, 04:01 PM
Except it never states they are racial feats, but are Bonus feats, AKA exactly what the rogue gets, and if characters arent creatures this is what happens:
If creatures and characters are mutually exclusive sets, or even not the same thing, then everyone's been playing wrong since release. Magic Missile targets creatures, and Fireball only affects creatures and objects, and says nothing about characters, so clearly it shouldn't work on PCs or NPCs, only on monsters. Black Tentacles only grapples creatures, so PCs and NPCs are immune. Solid Fog acts even weirder, where only creatures are concealed, only creatures are slowed, and only creatures are penalized, but no sight of any kind goes through it.
And,
The initiative rules work primarily for characters: creature initiative numbers are arbitrary and unconnected to their dex, and characters act on their initiative, but combatants (probably includes some creatures, but not noncombatants) act on tied initiative. So without an initiative tie, creatures can't act in combat at all. Special movement modes are creature-only, so characters can't use a fly speed if they get one.
Also, as defined(in the monster manual, the only place which does so), a bonus feat does 3 things:
1. Allow you to ignore all pre-requisites for that feat unless stated otherwise(note it says creatures can not have the pre-requisites and still have the feat, meaning they ignore them) , in turn meaning you automatically qualify for it.
2. Let you use the feat without qualifying for it.
3. Let you have more feats than your HD would let you. (Duh)
And those rules don't just apply to how to read a monster entry, they also can apply to when you create a character. Last thing, note how in one of your quotes it says "this line gives the creatures feats." Yeah, that's every single player character. And guess what? A monster is a character since every single playable race is a monster. They're both creatures.
Also, these rules are being read extremely RAWly, and I think the designers meant to add a clause about the rogue having to qualify, but forgot to, so as it stands, they may do that. And personally, as a DM, I would outright ban this, but it's a loophole, kind of like Pun-Pun, and like the Word and the Wish(maybe you don't know these two, but they also exploit loopholes.)
dextercorvia
2010-06-28, 04:08 PM
The Monster Manual, even if it does apply here to player characters, only lets you use a bonus feat you already have even if you do not meet the prerequisites. It says nothing about gaining the feat - since the language implies that the monster bonus feats are racial, this is not surprising - and so a character cannot select the bonus feats for which they do not qualify.
If this last interpretation is the only valid one, however, it would mean you could qualify for a bonus feat, select it, and then dump the prerequisites without losing access to the bonus feat.
This. Saying some creatures have bonus feats that they don't meet the prereq's for and can use them anyway is not the same as saying you can 'choose' a bonus feat you don't meet the prereq's for.
I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, so sorry if they did, but the bonus feat special ability should be marked as totally amazing. By RAW, you can take any feat, ignoring pre-requisites, which means if you start at say, level 10, you can directly take perfect two-weapon fighting skipping all the rest.
That's definitely not RAI and isn't RAW except by an extremely tenuous and preferential reading. It does not fit the criteria for practical optimization at all.
Gametime
2010-06-28, 04:40 PM
Except it never states they are racial feats, but are Bonus feats, AKA exactly what the rogue gets, and if characters arent creatures this is what happens:
*snip*
I'm not saying player characters aren't creatures, I'm saying the way the term is used in this one specific section of the Monster Manual clearly uses "creature" and "monster" as synonyms distinct from "player characters." I agree that using the same word in multiple ways is extremely confusing and poorly written, but that's how they did it.
Also, as defined(in the monster manual, the only place which does so), a bonus feat does 3 things:
1. Allow you to ignore all pre-requisites for that feat unless stated otherwise(note it says creatures can not have the pre-requisites and still have the feat, meaning they ignore them) , in turn meaning you automatically qualify for it.
2. Let you use the feat without qualifying for it.
3. Let you have more feats than your HD would let you. (Duh)
2 and 3 are correct. 1 is entirely false. Here is what the Monster Manual says about bonus feats (although it does not define them, as you so frequently claim, only mentions how they work - and, arguably, only how they work in the context of monster text blocks).
Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites
for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.
USE the feat. It specifically says that they do not have the prerequisites, and says nothing about qualifying for the feat regardless of lacking them. Nothing about ignoring prerequisites, except in the context of using the feat. Nothing about "automatically" qualifying for it. Your interpretation that the fact that creatures can use the feat without possessing the prerequisites means they also ignore the prerequisites in every other situation is completely unfounded and unsupported by the text.
Thus, a character cannot take a bonus feat that he or she does not qualify for, unless the conditions of the bonus feat allow it. If the character has a bonus feat that they do not need to take - like, say, a racial feat - then they don't need to qualify for it and can use it despite lacking the prerequisites.
And those rules don't just apply to how to read a monster entry, they also can apply to when you create a character. Last thing, note how in one of your quotes it says "this line gives the creatures feats." Yeah, that's every single player character. And guess what? A monster is a character since every single playable race is a monster. They're both creatures.
So despite the fact that the section says this:
This introduction explains how to read each creature’s write-up.
...you contend that the introduction ACTUALLY applies to creating characters.
It's an interesting move to claim that the rules are lying to you about their areas of applicability. Regardless, even if these rules do apply to player characters, there is no provision allowing you to TAKE feats for which you do not qualify. See above.
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-28, 04:53 PM
Ok, first things first, I want to say I'm sorry since I didn't explain this well in my previous posts and wrote a lot of stuff without thinking. Now, I'm going to try to explain that as concretely as possible. Sorry especially for having to read through those.
Now, bonus feats are never explained outside that page rihgt?(If someone finds it somewhere else please tell me, I'll be glad to look at it.) That's the only thing we have to go on when the rogue class says it gains a bonus feat. Now, those feats, like all other feats are at some point gained, (through birth, creation, training, whatever, it doesn't specify) and are gained even without the normal pre-requisites for them. Therefore, it can be concluded that they can be taken without meeting pre-requisites. And therefore, the rogue may take any feat regardless of pre-reqs because it is not stated otherwise.
Again really, sorry, especially to gametime. (I wrote a lot without thinking much)
*Goes to sleep so he may write more sanely tommorrow*
rat-morningstar
2010-06-28, 05:04 PM
how many different ways can you interpret "bonus"?
from thefreedictionary.com:
bo·nus (bns)
n. pl. bo·nus·es
1. Something given or paid in addition to what is usual or expected.
2.
a. A sum of money or an equivalent given to an employee in addition to the employee's usual compensation.
b. A sum of money in addition to salary that is given to a professional athlete for signing up with a team.
3. A subsidy from a government to an industry.
4. A sum of money paid by a government to a war veteran.
5. A premium, as of stock, that is given by a corporation to another party, such as a purchaser of its securities.
6. A sum of money that is paid by a corporation in excess of interest or royalties charged for the granting of a privilege or a loan to that corporation.
7. Basketball An additional free throw awarded to a player who has been fouled when the opposing team has committed more than a specified number of fouls during a period of play.
2-7 are about money, and thus moot
so: bonus = something givven in addition to what is expected
bonus feats, well, feats you get in addition to what is normal or expected
normally you get a feat /3 lvls, bonus means you get one extra
also: fighter bonus feats
from dungeons.wikia.com:
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
they explicitly state he has to meet the prerequisite
why should a rogue be better than a fighter?
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-28, 05:16 PM
So all bonus feats must be picked from the fighter list? And that's Fighter Bonus Feats, not Bonus Feats.
Greenish
2010-06-28, 05:20 PM
why should a rogue be better than a fighter?Because fighters are a very poor class.
Gametime
2010-06-28, 06:18 PM
So all bonus feats must be picked from the fighter list? And that's Fighter Bonus Feats, not Bonus Feats.
They're still considered bonus feats. Admittedly, that doesn't mean the restrictions on them apply to all bonus feats - that would be silly.
Keld Denar
2010-06-28, 06:38 PM
There are fighter bonus feats, wizard bonus feats, monk bonus feats, psychic warrior bonus feats, psion bonus feats, pious templar bonus feats, warblade bonus feats, and even HUMAN bonus feats. Some bonus feats may have restrictions (such as fighter's "combat oriented", wizard's "metamagic or item creation", psywar's "fighter or psionic", or even monk's "pick X or Y") or not (such as a human bonus feat, or rogue bonus feat). If what you say is true, then all 1 HD+ humans can take Epic Spellcasting, right?
idkwhatmynameis
2010-06-29, 01:27 PM
Except all those state you must explicitly still meet pre-reqs. The rogue's doesn't, and therefore uses the only time bonus feats are explained.
Curmudgeon
2010-06-29, 01:34 PM
Except all those state you must explicitly still meet pre-reqs. The rogue's doesn't, and therefore uses the only time bonus feats are explained.
So what? The default is that you follow the general feat rules, which includes meeting prerequisites. It's only when the rules explicitly state otherwise that you can skip those prerequisites.
This is a reminder:
A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat. ... and this is an exception:
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Gametime
2010-06-29, 02:26 PM
Except all those state you must explicitly still meet pre-reqs. The rogue's doesn't, and therefore uses the only time bonus feats are explained.
You keep saying "bonus feats are explained" and "bonus feats are defined." They aren't. All that section of the Monster Manual says is that if the creature has bonus feats but does not meet the prerequisites, it can still use the feat. It says nothing about what bonus feats are - which isn't really an issue, since it should be pretty obvious that a "bonus feat" is just a feat that is acquired outside the 1/3 levels progression.
It also, notably, says nothing about ignoring prerequisites for the purposes of acquiring feats, only for the purposes of using feats you already have (or, more accurately, creatures in the Monster Manual already have).
~Nye~
2010-07-12, 08:54 PM
You should look into neraphs from the planar handbook, they have neraph throw as a bonus feat that makes a target flat footed against a throw attack, is only usable once a day against a single target though. But it's pretty decent especially if it's free.
Zen Master
2010-07-13, 03:21 AM
Hm ... this is a rogue-ish thread, and I have a rogue-ish question. So possibly the two are a match made in heaven.
Assasins get Death Attack. Which is kinda nice, though slightly underpowered (because I rarely invest heavily in int). And is a melee attack.
So ... is there any way to make Death Attack ranged?
Because my halfling ranger/assasin would so love to be able to gank unsuspecting enemies with his wee throwing daggers. Love it to death!
Curmudgeon
2010-07-13, 03:52 AM
So ... is there any way to make Death Attack ranged?
The Sniper’s Eye spell (Spell Compendium, pages 193-194) allows making a death attack within 60'; it's a 4th level Assassin spell.
Zen Master
2010-07-13, 03:54 AM
The Sniper’s Eye spell (Spell Compendium, pages 193-194) allows making a death attack within 60'; it's a 4th level Assassin spell.
Sweet!
Sadly, I'm unlikely to ever reach level 12. Our campaigns tend to end around level 9-10. But still - sweet.
Maybe I could get a scroll. I do have UMD. Hmmmm =)
true_shinken
2010-07-21, 05:44 PM
Was this dropped?
Dr.Epic
2010-07-21, 05:47 PM
Here's a good trick: max out forgery and whenever you meet a noble get their autograph and then make some contract with their signature.
Was this dropped?
I've been a bit busy. I'll update once I get some time.
true_shinken
2010-07-21, 07:00 PM
I've been a bit busy. I'll update once I get some time.
Oh, I know the deal ^^
Congrats, great job up until now.
Shoruke
2010-07-26, 10:12 PM
To drastically reduce anyone's AC (especially for monsters), use the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick, the Deft Strike feat (from Draconomicon), and Travel Devotion. With Deft Strike, you make a spot check vs. the target's AC to bypass armor (natural or otherwise, including enhancement bonus), and Acrobatic Backstab denies the target their dexterity and dodge bonuses, plus it enables sneak attack. Mix this with Travel Devotion, and you can sneak attack on your own while still making full attacks.
Remember to use Craven, Insightful Strike, Two Weapon Fighting, a haste effect of some kind, and maybe a Deadly Precision or Keen weapon.
Curmudgeon
2010-07-26, 11:30 PM
use the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick, the Deft Strike feat (from Draconomicon), and Travel Devotion. With Deft Strike, you make a spot check vs. the target's AC to bypass armor (natural or otherwise, including enhancement bonus), and Acrobatic Backstab denies the target their dexterity and dodge bonuses, plus it enables sneak attack. Mix this with Travel Devotion, and you can sneak attack on your own while still making full attacks.
Your combination doesn't really work with any full attacks.
Travel Devotion lets you move as a swift action.
Acrobatic Backstab lets you make 1 melee attack with the enemy flat-footed after a Tumble check. It's limited to 1 use per encounter.
Deft Strike requires a standard action to make a Spot check; if you succeed, your next attack is against a lowered AC.
While you can use Travel Devotion and Acrobatic Backstab to enable 1 sneak attack after a swift action, the rest of your full attack gets no special benefit. Deft Strike, since it requires a standard action, precludes any regular attack in the round you use it, and still provides benefit only for a single attack.
I don't see any way you're getting full sneak attacks in there.
Fitz10019
2010-07-27, 06:30 AM
Nice work!
The Titan Fighting feat replaces your Dodge bonus with your racial AC bonus v. Giants. For Dwarves and Gnomes, the AC bonus v. Giants is 4 (so +1 Dodge becomes +4). The Feats, Both, section describes this feat as +5 to AC.
true_shinken
2010-07-27, 11:12 AM
Your combination doesn't really work with any full attacks.
He could be referecing the Deft Strik + Rapid Recon (hope I got the name right) combo; even though it is illegal, many people don't notice that.
The_Admiral
2010-09-30, 02:22 AM
How about multiclassing with sorcerer?
Curmudgeon
2010-09-30, 05:32 AM
He could be referecing the Deft Strik + Rapid Recon (hope I got the name right) combo; even though it is illegal, many people don't notice that.
That would be Quick Reconnoiter (from Complete Adventurer). As you noted, that combination doesn't work. Deft Strike explicitly requires a standard action and includes a Spot check. Quick Reconnoiter lets you make a retry Spot check as a free action instead of as a move action. The Spot check in Deft Strike and Quick Reconnoiter are of different types (look for a weak point in armor vs. look for something you failed to see on a previous Spot check) and actions (part of a standard action, vs. a move action changed to free action).
How about multiclassing with sorcerer?
Use one of the Unseen Seer builds, but replace wizard with sorcerer. Sorcerer is not as good here (since Cha is much worse than Int for rogues) but it still works alright overall.
true_shinken
2010-09-30, 09:23 AM
Use one of the Unseen Seer builds, but replace wizard with sorcerer. Sorcerer is not as good here (since Cha is much worse than Int for rogues) but it still works alright overall.
Multiclassing does have the added perk of opening Draconic Heritage. Draconic Claw is a not-so-bad feat and changing your Dragonfire Strike damage to sonic is pretty nice.
Tharck
2010-09-30, 12:52 PM
I prefer a combat rogue. 1 Level of Fighter to gain all armor, shield, and weapon prof as well as a feat. Max STR and let DEX slide a bit (12-16 is fine) wear a breastplate (or fullplate if my DEX is 12) and wield a greatsword. I then work with the fighter in the party to help me flank targets and smash them with my greatsword. At higher levels I invest in gloves of storing and a wand of divine power (which gives +6 enh to STR and gives me a Base Attack equal to my total character level) and I use the feat I didnt spend on Weapon Finesse for Skill Focus UMD to help ensure that wands works. (With a 16 INT its 100% at lvl 10 - which is about the level you should think of getting one.) Wand of Imp Invis is also a nice addition.
A wand of grease is also essential (or a team playing wizard) for tightly packed groups of mobs inside of areas who refuse to allow for flanking.
gorfnab
2010-10-24, 02:32 AM
Found an interesting item in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide on page 309 called Sniper Goggles. Takes up the eye slot. Sneak Attack at any range (basically continuous Snipers Shot) and +2 circumstance bonus per die of sneak attack damage on sneak attacks within 30ft. All this for 20,000gp.
ffone
2010-10-24, 02:57 AM
Found an interesting item in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide on page 309 called Sniper Goggles. Takes up the eye slot. Sneak Attack at any range (basically continuous Snipers Shot) and +2 circumstance bonus per die of sneak attack damage on sneak attacks within 30ft. All this for 20,000gp.
Great find, esp for campaigns that won't use the 'swift action spell wands/items are swift actions' (for sniper's shot) rule from Rules Compendium.
So is the damage basically like the Craven feat (+2 per die is like +1 per level, for a single class rogue anyway)?
Too bad for me it's Pathfinder!
true_shinken
2010-10-24, 04:09 PM
Great find, esp for campaigns that won't use the 'swift action spell wands/items are swift actions' (for sniper's shot) rule from Rules Compendium.
So is the damage basically like the Craven feat (+2 per die is like +1 per level, for a single class rogue anyway)?
Too bad for me it's Pathfinder!
Wow, very good find.
I really should buy that book.
Endarire
2010-12-10, 02:46 AM
Thanks for making this handbook!
teslas
2010-12-22, 06:09 AM
I've consulted this a few times, good work.
I keep hoping you put as much effort into looking through magic items. A lot of it is standard knowledge and might able to be found easily elsewhere, but a 1-stop guide would be invaluable.
Thanks for the guide.
Laharal
2011-02-08, 09:06 PM
Maybe I missed it in the replies but I don't see it in the ''menus'' feat: backstab (Dragon mag 340) what is the color of that one?
Pigkappa
2011-08-28, 06:19 AM
How can a Melee rogue/swashbuckler near level 10 be reasonably safe?
Since you are quite MAD (Int Dex and maybe Cha), your Con won't be very high. You have probably less AC than other classes (no Complete Armor; and if you wear a Chainmail, you are not using at full potential your Dex bonus to AC). Your saves are, well, quite bad (except for Reflex), in particular the Will save. And you're most likely in melee and dealing quite some damage, so the monsters will often attack you.
Pigkappa
2011-08-28, 11:45 AM
This is the wrong section by the way, I guess. Should be in 3.5
Tr011
2011-09-25, 10:42 PM
Do me a favor:
First, mark all races as Red and crappy.
Second, make a new color that is better than blue and add Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) as a new race in that color.
It is a race with no stated LA (hope ur DM let's u take it with +0 thereby). It has 3 HD and gives:
2 Feats (as normal for 3 HD)
Good Fort-Save (+3)
Good Reflex-Save (+3)
Good Will-Save (+3)
Good BAB (+3)
Good Skill Points (8+int)
So you take Fighter-BAB, Monk-Saves, Rogue-Skills.
Now what?
You get -2 Str (noone cares about this), +6 Dex, +2 Wis (nonsense but why not, it's +1 spot&listen)
Base Movement 20ft? No, you get 50ft. fly speed with perfect maneuverability. You are tiny, too.
DR 5/cold iron and good? Nice, but add that Fast Healing 2.
60ft. Darkvision and Martial&Simple Weapons as normal for Outsiders? Immunity to Hold Person? Of Course!
+3 Natural Armor are in the package, too.
Also, **** these noobs with Poison use: You get Immunity to poison, so you can use poison on weapons without poisoning yourself, but better: You can poison all drinks on a party and still drink like Drunken Master. You can get your enemies into rooms with inhalating-poison without any masks.
And you get a racial poison.
You think that's all? NO! Now, let's start with the good race features:
Invis Self - At will.
Polymorph Self into two forms, you decide which ones at the start of the character. This ability is capped at 3HD, medium size, can change you into Outsiders (you are one) and is AT WILL!
Detect Good, Detect Magic - both at will.
Resistance to fire 10 is great at the early levels. And it means you are immune to mundane fire.
Commune - once per weak. Can be decend I think, dunno.
Cause Fear - Once per day.
Add that Natural Weapons (evil-aligned, too). Natural Weapons are always useful for Rogues.
So, just start this char and at level 4 (Quasit 3/something roguish 1) you have (assuming 17 dex+1 from levels) +12 attack (+7 dex, +2 size, +3 bab), +12 reflex (+7 dex, +3 quasit, +2 rogue). With invis you get a total attack bonus of +15 (+7 dex, +2 size, +3 bab, +1 masterwork weapon, +2 invis) thus you can hit a flat-footed enemy in Full-Plate on a natural 3. And you get AC of ~25 (10+7 dex, +3 mw studded leather, +3 natural armor, +2 size).
/edit: remember that this needs DMs permission. But if he's ok with this, it's a great race for any rogue.
DaragosKitsune
2011-09-27, 08:52 PM
Do me a favor:
First, mark all races as Red and crappy.
Second, make a new color that is better than blue and add Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) as a new race in that color.
It is a race with no stated LA (hope ur DM let's u take it with +0 thereby). It has 3 HD and gives:
2 Feats (as normal for 3 HD)
Good Fort-Save (+3)
Good Reflex-Save (+3)
Good Will-Save (+3)
Good BAB (+3)
Good Skill Points (8+int)
So you take Fighter-BAB, Monk-Saves, Rogue-Skills.
Now what?
You get -2 Str (noone cares about this), +6 Dex, +2 Wis (nonsense but why not, it's +1 spot&listen)
Base Movement 20ft? No, you get 50ft. fly speed with perfect maneuverability. You are tiny, too.
DR 5/cold iron and good? Nice, but add that Fast Healing 2.
60ft. Darkvision and Martial&Simple Weapons as normal for Outsiders? Immunity to Hold Person? Of Course!
+3 Natural Armor are in the package, too.
Also, **** these noobs with Poison use: You get Immunity to poison, so you can use poison on weapons without poisoning yourself, but better: You can poison all drinks on a party and still drink like Drunken Master. You can get your enemies into rooms with inhalating-poison without any masks.
And you get a racial poison.
You think that's all? NO! Now, let's start with the good race features:
Invis Self - At will.
Polymorph Self into two forms, you decide which ones at the start of the character. This ability is capped at 3HD, medium size, can change you into Outsiders (you are one) and is AT WILL!
Detect Good, Detect Magic - both at will.
Resistance to fire 10 is great at the early levels. And it means you are immune to mundane fire.
Commune - once per weak. Can be decend I think, dunno.
Cause Fear - Once per day.
Add that Natural Weapons (evil-aligned, too). Natural Weapons are always useful for Rogues.
So, just start this char and at level 4 (Quasit 3/something roguish 1) you have (assuming 17 dex+1 from levels) +12 attack (+7 dex, +2 size, +3 bab), +12 reflex (+7 dex, +3 quasit, +2 rogue). With invis you get a total attack bonus of +15 (+7 dex, +2 size, +3 bab, +1 masterwork weapon, +2 invis) thus you can hit a flat-footed enemy in Full-Plate on a natural 3. And you get AC of ~25 (10+7 dex, +3 mw studded leather, +3 natural armor, +2 size).
/edit: remember that this needs DMs permission. But if he's ok with this, it's a great race for any rogue.
First, fixed your colour text so as to make this legible not kill my eyes. Second, the grammar and spelling in this... could use some work. Third, you've willingly given up sneak attack. That's bad. I'll grant that the Dex bonus, size, and weapon proficiencies are nice, as are the SLA's. However, you've lost 2 dice of SA damage, quite a few skill points, and as you said, used a race with no listed LA. This lack of LA implies an intent for this to not be used as a player race. Also, you have missed the point of the guide as stated by the OP. This is a guide for optimizing the Rogue base class, not to making a roguish character.
DeAnno
2011-09-27, 09:15 PM
You might want to mention the Daggerspell Mage PRC. It gives 3d6 SA and +9 casting progression over 10 levels, and the daggercasting abilities are actually pretty good for burst damage at the start of combat. Even with no metamagic, Combust or Shivering Touch in each dagger can make your first full attack pretty painful.
By numbers its 1d6 and a spellcasting level worse than Unseen Seer, but the class features are very good.
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