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View Full Version : [3.5] Doing "Epic" Stuff With Skills



Zovc
2010-06-15, 09:06 PM
I remember the first time I looked at the Epic Level Handbook. I can't remember if it was a 3.0 or a 3.5 copy, but I can remember sitting down on the floor in Books-a-Million with it and opening it up. The thing that caught my eye over anything else was the epic applications of skills.

Unfortunately, I'm currently out of passable segways. The 3.5 revision that's been going back and forth in my head lately is, at its simplest, E8. Naturally, epic levels are outside of the scope of E8, but that doesn't mean epic things should be. I mean, if you ask me, a Strength of 18 (compared to the average human's 10, right?) is pretty epic.

What are your opinions on epic applications of skills (either individually or as a whole)? What do you think of 'non-epic' characters using these applications? How should non-epic characters go about obtaining these epic applications?

This idea came to me when trying to think of cool things to give to level 8 characters upon 'leveling'. (Edit: But that doesn't mean I am not considering giving these abilities to lower-level characters.)

[For what its worth, I'm also considering making skill tricks more prevalent in my revision.]

PersonMan
2010-06-15, 09:16 PM
Well, when I was an early DM I decided two things: the DnD score system and skills were bad.

Every 1 above 12 was a +1, and you had no max ranks. The end result was high-Int rogues having +80 or so on Hide or Move Silently, for example. I found that with those sorts of bonuses, using traditional monsters let them sneak past/hide from anything, etc. So, it worked out fairly well, and I think that if you simply removed skill caps(maybe a feat-esque thing at level 8?) without increasing the amount of skill points you can have normal-level skills or people who specialize in skills(I am the best Listener ever! +85!* At level 1!). It lets people feel good when they put huge ranks into skills, but it can also let those people completely dominate every time they use that skill.

TL;DR: Remove skill caps and you can do epic stuff if you put in lots of ranks.

*Not much of an exaggeration. With this system, a 20 was +8; so a level 1 rogue with 20 Int would get 76 skill points.

Zovc
2010-06-15, 09:21 PM
Every 1 what above 12 was +1? I'm sorry, I feel like you left out a couple of words in your post, PersonMan.

A problem I have with removing the skill cap is (aside from making some of the revision's pillars a little wobbly) that it makes the game's skill system even more abstract. Like, it's safe to assume that the world's greatest performer didn't have more than a +8 modifier in their skill(s) of choice, before using any shenanigans. If you take the skill cap away, how many ranks did Freddie Mercury have in Perform (Sing)?

Roland St. Jude
2010-06-15, 09:27 PM
The Epic Level Handbook was 3.0, though released at the tail end of that era, but the epic skills are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSkills.htm).

For E8, one could easily homebrew some epic skills or use some of the existing ones at lower totals than specified. Seems like a fun idea to me. By the time you reach the high end of whatever range you're playing, it'd be nice to have each player be able to do something that feels "epic."

PersonMan
2010-06-15, 09:28 PM
Every 1 what above 12 was +1? I'm sorry, I feel like you left out a couple of words in your post, PersonMan.

A problem I have with removing the skill cap is (aside from making some of the revision's pillars a little wobbly) that it makes the game's skill system even more abstract. Like, it's safe to assume that the world's greatest performer didn't have more than a +8 modifier in their skill(s) of choice, before using any shenanigans. If you take the skill cap away, how many ranks did Freddie Mercury have in Perform (Sing)?

Sorry. Every one point. So 13=+1, 14=+2, etc. It was extremely overpowered. Especially with a d20 for stats and gratuitous rerolling...

...Meh. It never came up when we used it. It was just sort of accepted that 20+ was very good, and 30+ was amazing. So with a 40+ on Hide you managed to slid yourself into some amazing little corner and line up exactly with whatever cover you have or the like.

Well, you could just use it as a feat-esque thing you can pay XP for(that's what E6 does, right? After level 6?) or as a feat starting at level 4-6, so that only some of the best Xers in the world can do X that well.

Milskidasith
2010-06-15, 09:58 PM
If you want skill application that lets you do truly amazing things, you could try d20 legends skill system.

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8x-2FGqWrmtNjEzNjY0ZGEtYzNiZi00OGQ1LTliNWYtZTMwYTkwM2 VjM2Fi&hl=en&pli=1

It starts on page 32; in general, DC 10 is an average task, 15 is very hard for a trained human, 20 is just beyond superhuman, 25 is an amazing feat, DC 30 is absolutely incredible, and DC 35 is practically magic. Granted, the system is designed for Legend, which has some major differences, but the skill system can still work out provided you remove feats that give +X to a skill.

EDIT: As an example, an E8 character with 11 ranks in something and a +4 to the relevant skill could, for example, balance on the point of a spear taking 10, jump dozens of feet in the air on a roll of 15+, or on a natural twenty, climb up falling snowflakes.

Pretty epic, eh?

Maerok
2010-06-15, 10:22 PM
1) Put all your ranks in 3.5 Diplomacy without skill caps.
2) Do your diplomacy thing on everything with eyes/ears.
3) Make others do epic things for you.
4) ...
5) Profit!!!

Zovc
2010-06-15, 11:28 PM
EDIT: As an example, an E8 character with 11 ranks in something and a +4 to the relevant skill could, for example, balance on the point of a spear taking 10, jump dozens of feet in the air on a roll of 15+, or on a natural twenty, climb up falling snowflakes.

Pretty epic, eh?

Indeed, climbing falling snowflakes might be too epic. lol

Milskidasith
2010-06-15, 11:32 PM
Indeed, climbing falling snowflakes might be too epic. lol

Well, you'd need to get an absurdly high skill check to be able to do it, and as far as I can tell taking 20 isn't intended in d20 legend. You could always raise the check up a bit.