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Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 11:28 AM
As in, besides knocked-up-ness.

At least I figured it'd fit better here than the Homebrew forum...

Anyhoo, after a thread from not too long ago discussed expanding the age categories to include children and infants, and then re-reading some older OotS comics (stumbled again upon this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html)) I got to wondering... what exactly would the mechanical penalties and bonuses (if any) be with regards to pregnancy in DnD? Or d20 in general for that matter?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-16, 11:39 AM
A good start would be encumbrance and a few situations that can risk abortion...namely, physical stress (run, encumbrance caused by stuff other than the fetus) and anything that makes you roll Fort entitles a second roll of the same dc to keep it from dieing.

Amphetryon
2010-06-16, 11:44 AM
The word you want is 'miscarriage'.

Ormagoden
2010-06-16, 11:45 AM
Is it just me or when reading the title of this thread you think of something entirely different?

Ashiel
2010-06-16, 11:45 AM
As in, besides knocked-up-ness.

At least I figured it'd fit better here than the Homebrew forum...

Anyhoo, after a thread from not too long ago discussed expanding the age categories to include children and infants, and then re-reading some older OotS comics (stumbled again upon this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html)) I got to wondering... what exactly would the mechanical penalties and bonuses (if any) be with regards to pregnancy in DnD? Or d20 in general for that matter?

This is a can of worms. You see, there are so many different opinions as to what the effects should be that it becomes excessively difficult to fish through all of them. You have "realism" individuals who would oppose a -2 penalty to a woman's strength "cause they lave less body mass", and would eat a character alive with penalties for being pregnant (right down to having them have difficulties concentrating or preparing spells due to poor sleep or morning sickness).

Then you have the side who's all high-fantasy, and ready to let the high-level mother ****-kick the crap out of balors with a baby in one hand a warhammer in the other.

Then you got people kind of like me who's kind of in the middle. I'd prefer to let them keep adventuring with no penalties right up until the wee months of their pregnancy, and then give the adventurers some down-time; or if its one of those world shattering things where the party just has to go do some 'venturing, then set up contingencies of some sort. Most major complications from injury could probably be fixed with liberal applications of cure, restoration, heal, and (heaven forbid) raise dead or resurrection.

But far too many people will try to make this out to be a huge punishment, rather than a great role-playing option (no, expressly choosing to sit out of the fun and action isn't a good role-playing choice; it's a boring one); which is why I'd recommend some downtime and maybe a opportunity to fast-forward a few months at a time.

It'd be a great time to work on other social things, like the founding or improvement of guilds; crafting magic items, or taking a vacation. If this sort of thing isn't for your group (preferring more action, or less fast-forward time), perhaps pregnancy scenarios aren't for your group.

Unless you're just trying to stat out an NPC. In that case, just stat 'em out to be about as effective as you see them being.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 11:46 AM
You can start here:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pregnancy_(3.5e_Disease)

Its the only crunch I've seen made for that, honestly.

Ernir
2010-06-16, 11:49 AM
The Book of Erotic Fantasy has rules on this.

Chen
2010-06-16, 11:49 AM
The least game breaking (for the player if thats the case) would just be extra encumbrance. Considering HP is an abstraction anyways I'd say the risk of the fetus dying/being damaged should only occur if you get knocked to 0 or below. Otherwise the damage taken is assumed to be taken elsewhere and healing would affect both mother and child.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-16, 11:54 AM
None. Unless your entire group has made it very clear they want it a specific way, and they all agree 100% on what that is. Even then it's probably not a good idea to stat out.

--Lime--
2010-06-16, 12:01 PM
Crunch should reflect roleplay. There are several heroines from history that come to mind that embody the whole "baby in one hand, battleaxe in the other". But the thing is, if the pregnant character is there to add an aspect of "protect the VIP" into the group, stat it that way. If it's to flesh out RP, maybe bonus on diplo checks or somesuch because people give up their seats, ladies go "aww... when's it due? Boy or girl?" and generally, people always try to help out pregnant ladies. The crunch should fit the purpose of what your group want in the game. There's no right answer - hell, if you want to give her barbarian's rage for getting hormonal, there isn't a rule says you can't.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 12:02 PM
The Book of Erotic Fantasy has rules on this.

I was going to suggest the BoEF too. Someone on the boards recently said it has two categories of content - 1) well-written and mature, and 2) relevant to the game.

These two never overlap, but the pregnancy rules fit firmly into the first category. On the other hand, they're fairly minor - it divides the pregnancy into three trimesters, with increasing movement penalties and Dexterity penalties through the second and third, and a small Strength penalty during the third.

Caliphbubba
2010-06-16, 12:03 PM
Every pregnancy is so different it's hard to come up with any general guidelines. Some women work and act no different than any other time in their lives right up until the very end. Other women are on bed rest for a long period of time. Other women get sick early on, and feel better as the pregnancy progresses.

Maybe fortitude rolls every day to see how it goes. This would represent that healthier, hardier womenfolk have less trouble than more frail ones. Then with a sliding scale depending on degree of success or failure of the check.


I'd probably do as other have suggested and do away with the whole penalty thing right until the end, and then give them some down time until after the birth.

Adventurers get maternity leave too!
*shrug*

Eloi
2010-06-16, 12:04 PM
I do wonder, what kind of person would go out on treacherous terrain and fight monsters and endanger a baby's life like that? Seems kinda (very) reckless to me. Why not just say "Months later..." and have the baby be born, that way you wouldn't have to stat out pregnancy?

electricbee
2010-06-16, 12:05 PM
I'd personally so NO mechanical penalties.

We don't have separate racial male and female ablitiy score limits anymore for a reason, and this is a mechanical penalties for a female only condition is a throwback to less enlightened times.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 12:06 PM
I'd personally so NO mechanical penalties.

We don't have separate racial male and female ablitiy score limits anymore for a reason, and this is a mechanical penalties for a female only condition is a throwback to less enlightened times.

:smallconfused: So these are the times where women don't get pregnant and if they do its not physically taxing?

Caliphbubba
2010-06-16, 12:07 PM
I do wonder, what kind of person would go out on treacherous terrain and fight monsters and endanger a baby's life like that? Seems kinda (very) reckless to me. Why not just say "Months later..." and have the baby be born, that way you wouldn't have to stat out pregnancy?

The Chaotic kind? chaotic and reckless often go hand in hand. not always, mind you, but it sure could go that way.

also, the >end of the world< scenario could be time sensative. Pretty compelling reason there. Risk the baby to save >blank<.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 12:07 PM
I'd personally so NO mechanical penalties.

We don't have separate racial male and female ablitiy score limits anymore for a reason, and this is a mechanical penalties for a female only condition is a throwback to less enlightened times.

We're discussing a fantasy universe here...why would it be a female only condition?:smallbiggrin:

dob
2010-06-16, 12:11 PM
I call bull**** on DEX and movement penalties in the first two trimesters. I refer you to the amazing story of Christie Rampone (http://www.nj.com/soccer-news/index.ssf/2010/05/politi_ultimate_soccer_mom_chr.html), professional women's soccer player.

I grant you she is exceptional, but what are D&D player characters but exceptional?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-16, 12:18 PM
Heh, for a character I'm playing (who is male, but I felt the need to flesh out the culture he came from), I had a culture where the female hunters take a "wife" and male lover(s), and the wife is impregnated by the lovers because the hunters don't ever want to deal with pregnancy. The culture believed quite strongly that the child was that of the hunter and her wife, not the lover. It was about the only solution I could think of to the issue of a very physically active and dangerous profession being equally available to men and women; pregnancy is just too often debilitating for too long to be acceptable in an adventurer lifestyle, I'd think. Basically, as Eloi said, to go out on an adventure while pregnant seems dangerous, reckless, and irresponsible (sometimes life does force one to behave dangerously, recklessly, and irresponsibly, but you couldn't make a culture out of people who do that on a regular basis).

Of course, this culture was also extremely primitive, being hunter-gatherers hunters, with a small population, etc. Couldn't afford to have some of their best not 'fathering' children, so... weirdness.

Master_Rahl22
2010-06-16, 12:22 PM
Just... don't. That way lies FATAL, and you don't even want to go there. If it's impossible to simply say "Nine months later..." then I like the slightly extra encumbrance idea. Don't try to get any more detailed than that.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 12:24 PM
I call bull**** on DEX and movement penalties in the first two trimesters. I refer you to the amazing story of Christie Rampone (http://www.nj.com/soccer-news/index.ssf/2010/05/politi_ultimate_soccer_mom_chr.html), professional women's soccer player.

I grant you she is exceptional, but what are D&D player characters but exceptional?

Second two trimesters, actually (the first is penalty-free), but that is a good point (and a fairly cool story).

Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 12:28 PM
First off, let me say that this is not for something in-game. I don't plan on getting a character of mine knocked up or see any other PCs have that be done to them or do it unto others. This was merely founded from curiosity. :smallsmile:

That link to Dandwiki that Eloi gave is somewhat helpful, but birth in 9 rounds? That's crazy. I was born in two and a half hours and that was fast. The Str damage is also rather high and frequent...

...admittably I also own a copy of BoEF (even more awkward that my mother got it for me without knowing what it was, alongside tons of other books), but I didn't bother to check it. Whoops? :smalltongue: Oh well, at least a fair discussion sprouted from this.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 12:29 PM
First off, let me say that this is not for something in-game. I don't plan on getting a character of mine knocked up or see any other PCs have that be done to them or do it unto others. This was merely founded from curiosity. :smallsmile:

That link to Dandwiki that Eloi gave is somewhat helpful, but birth in 9 rounds? That's crazy. I was born in two and a half hours and that was fast. The Str damage is also rather high and frequent...

...admittably I also own a copy of BoEF (even more awkward that my mother got it for me without knowing what it was, alongside tons of other books), but I didn't bother to check it. Whoops? :smalltongue: Oh well, at least a fair discussion sprouted from this.

Well my clone, I also had the book and forgot to check even after it was mentioned. :smalltongue:

Another_Poet
2010-06-16, 12:29 PM
If you are going to add rules for pregnancy I would also add a 1st level Cleric spell, "Ease Pregnancy", duration 1 day, Fort save negates (harmless), effect: experience no ill side effects of pregnancy (does not preclude complications with the actual birthing process).

Then your adventurers can be preggo and not worry about nausea penalties or encumbrance.

ap

WarKitty
2010-06-16, 12:34 PM
I do wonder, what kind of person would go out on treacherous terrain and fight monsters and endanger a baby's life like that? Seems kinda (very) reckless to me. Why not just say "Months later..." and have the baby be born, that way you wouldn't have to stat out pregnancy?

Depends on the DM. I have a tendency to run campaigns where you might not be getting the option to go rest for a few months. E.g. the "you've been kidnapped by a demon who demands you get something for him" type.

In other ideas, maybe some sort of bonus to spells or something? There's certainly fantasy literature precedent for the extra "soul" adding a bit of it's strength to the spellcaster.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 12:35 PM
Depends on the DM. I have a tendency to run campaigns where you might not be getting the option to go rest for a few months. E.g. the "you've been kidnapped by a demon who demands you get something for him" type.

If you're characters don't have enough time to rest for the duration of a pregnancy, they don't have enough time to cause a pregnancy, in my opinion.

WarKitty
2010-06-16, 12:36 PM
If you're characters don't have enough time to rest for the duration of a pregnancy, they don't have enough time to cause a pregnancy, in my opinion.

(1) You don't know my characters, they would find time. Although we did houserule in potions of birth control.

(2) There's no reason to assume the conception happened during the campaign.

Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 12:37 PM
Heh, for a character I'm playing (who is male, but I felt the need to flesh out the culture he came from), I had a culture where the female hunters take a "wife" and male lover(s), and the wife is impregnated by the lovers because the hunters don't ever want to deal with pregnancy. The culture believed quite strongly that the child was that of the hunter and her wife, not the lover. It was about the only solution I could think of to the issue of a very physically active and dangerous profession being equally available to men and women; pregnancy is just too often debilitating for too long to be acceptable in an adventurer lifestyle, I'd think. Basically, as Eloi said, to go out on an adventure while pregnant seems dangerous, reckless, and irresponsible (sometimes life does force one to behave dangerously, recklessly, and irresponsibly, but you couldn't make a culture out of people who do that on a regular basis).

Of course, this culture was also extremely primitive, being hunter-gatherers hunters, with a small population, etc. Couldn't afford to have some of their best not 'fathering' children, so... weirdness.

Consider this idea snagged and altered to fit my purposes. (I'll leave a thank you note in the credits of the campaign.)


Well my clone, I also had the book and forgot to check even after it was mentioned. :smalltongue:

We all have our vices. :smalltongue:


If you are going to add rules for pregnancy I would also add a 1st level Cleric spell, "Ease Pregnancy", duration 1 day, Fort save negates (harmless), effect: experience no ill side effects of pregnancy (does not preclude complications with the actual birthing process).

Then your adventurers can be preggo and not worry about nausea penalties or encumbrance.

ap

They'd still have to worry about miscarriage, likely...

Personally, I wouldn't have a female adventurer (PC or NPC) get preggo if she was the dungeoncrashing type rather than the city-based or court-based type, not without timeskipping or a change in how the campaign would go. For NPCs though? Fair game, perhaps a rival moderately Lawful Evil party's main girl who is very much obsessed with winning got knocked up by leader dearest and restrained from adventuring for a while. What's that I hear? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? Oh hell yes, let the roleplaying drama begin.

Another_Poet
2010-06-16, 12:44 PM
They'd still have to worry about miscarriage, likely...


Not during the 9 months of pregnancy if they're using Ease Pregnancy every day. A higher-level spell, Deliver Baby, (Clr3, duration 1 hour/level) would be employed to protect the child and mother during labor.

WarKitty
2010-06-16, 12:47 PM
Not during the 9 months of pregnancy if they're using Ease Pregnancy every day. A higher-level spell, Deliver Baby, (Clr3, duration 1 hour/level) would be employed to protect the child and mother during labor.

I believe I read somewhere about a plan for an NPC-type druid that would be closer to the type found in a small farming community. I think spells to aid pregnancy were on the list.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-16, 12:47 PM
If you're characters don't have enough time to rest for the duration of a pregnancy, they don't have enough time to cause a pregnancy, in my opinion.


Carrying to term takes 9 months, at least for humans. Conception not so much.

Another_Poet
2010-06-16, 12:56 PM
I believe I read somewhere about a plan for an NPC-type druid that would be closer to the type found in a small farming community. I think spells to aid pregnancy were on the list.

It's the Gleaner. Check the left-hand sidebar of this page under "Gaming"

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-16, 01:31 PM
Years ago in a 3.0 campaign I was playing a High Elf Monk named Zathress, he ended up impregnating an NPC, a drow woman. The crunchy effects never really came up, as my lawful good crusader of justice was not about to let is pregnant love into danger. Though it did not help she tracked him down to the underdark to announce her pregnancy. [which was to shoot arrows at him while screaming you got be pregnant you bastard].
So she was a tag along during 1st month of her pregnancy tell we left, so the mechanical stuff never came up.
But the roleplay banter was certainly funny.
"Zathress aren't you worried about the violent mood swings from pregnancy?"
"How would those be any different then her normal ones"
And he got his answer, instead of anger which he expected and could handle she cried, then slapped him upside the head in anger as he held her and apologize
At another point the PC sorcerer asked Zathress
"How do you know their yours?"
Before I even voiced my response the rest of the party announced they were tackling me to the ground so I wouldn't throttle him.

And in another amusing bit after returning from one of many adventures to bring down the big bad. She's eating some pickles and pudding, and she "offered" to share some. I declined but sat down next to her and put an arm around her shoulder. She offered again still I declined and said I wasn't hunger, she offered a third time with her eyes filled with fury and the fires of hell. It was at this point I realized she was not offering but telling me.

I can only guess as to the reason she demanded we share pickles and pudding was so we'd both look ridiculous eating it.


If you're characters don't have enough time to rest for the duration of a pregnancy, they don't have enough time to cause a pregnancy, in my opinion.

That's like saying no sex before marriage, its a nice belief but in no way reality.


Not during the 9 months of pregnancy if they're using Ease Pregnancy every day. A higher-level spell, Deliver Baby, (Clr3, duration 1 hour/level) would be employed to protect the child and mother during labor.

If a giant throws you off a cliff, I don't think a 1st level spell would do much to protect the baby. Though on the subject of spell uses I had a female telepath who at one point remarked when she eventually had children[being of noble decent she expected to get married at some point] she would use share pain on her husband during labor.

Rutskarn
2010-06-16, 01:34 PM
Every day, I like to take a forum thread title out of context and share it with somebody who doesn't have our gamer pedigree.

Today, this is that thread.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-16, 01:35 PM
If a giant throws you off a cliff, I don't think a 1st level spell would do much to protect the baby.

Feather Fall?

Another_Poet
2010-06-16, 01:41 PM
If a giant throws you off a cliff, I don't think a 1st level spell would do much to protect the baby.

I meant that exertion like running, combat, etc wouldn't cause miscarriage. If damage is dealt to the foetus as with massive falling damage or if the mother dies then sure the baby is a goner.

However without called-shot-to-the-womb rules the Ease Pregnancy spell will allow the mother to sustain most forms of damage without risking the foetus.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 01:41 PM
If a giant throws you off a cliff, I don't think a 1st level spell would do much to protect the baby.
Ah yes, but I know one:

Sane DM: This spell allows for the DM to not have NPCs throw a pregnant lady off a cliff because they aren't sadists.

Rutskarn
2010-06-16, 01:45 PM
Ah yes, but I know one:

Sane DM: This spell allows for the DM to not have NPCs throw a pregnant lady off a cliff because they aren't sadists.

Well, I mean, she is an adventurer traveling with a baby. What does she think is going to happen?

Adventurers get shot with arrows, gored with lances, knocked down by minotaurs, hit with fireballs, disintegrated, shocked with lightning, and, yes, thrown off of cliffs. What's the DM going to do, give her plot armor?

Really, the DM wouldn't be the one to blame, there.

Or, wait, actually, I haven't been following this thread. Is the lady just a commoner or something who's in the line of fire? Because if so, I mean, monsters are evil, and they do evil stuff like that.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-16, 01:45 PM
If the mother is a spellcaster she now has a portable soul as per BoVD rules to expend when casting. Imagine the power wielded by the octomom.

Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 01:50 PM
Every day, I like to take a forum thread title out of context and share it with somebody who doesn't have our gamer pedigree.

Today, this is that thread.

Glad to be of service.


If the mother is a spellcaster she now has a portable soul as per BoVD rules to expend when casting. Imagine the power wielded by the octomom.

That is without a doubt the most disturbingly Evil thing I have read today. Salutations and yikeses. :smalleek:

EDIT: Not to mention she has many human hearts and digits to expend too...

Eloi
2010-06-16, 01:52 PM
Well, I mean, she is an adventurer traveling with a baby. What does she think is going to happen?

Adventurers get shot with arrows, gored with lances, knocked down by minotaurs, hit with fireballs, disintegrated, shocked with lightning, and, yes, thrown off of cliffs. What's the DM going to do, give her plot armor?

Really, the DM wouldn't be the one to blame, there.

Or, wait, actually, I haven't been following this thread. Is the lady just a commoner or something who's in the line of fire? Because if so, I mean, monsters are evil, and they do evil stuff like that.

I already noted how reckless it would be but I think it'd be weird for me to be like "And then the guy throws the pregnant player off a cliff. Roll a *d*+* to determine whether you and your baby lives". I mean, how is that anyway fun for the campaign? How is getting pregnant fun in a tabletop game? I don't really understand that much.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 01:53 PM
If the mother is a spellcaster she now has a portable soul as per BoVD rules to expend when casting. Imagine the power wielded by the octomom.

Get your Book of Vile Darkness out of my Book of Erotic Fantasy. They don't mix very well! Or more disturbingly they mix just fine, so quit. :smalltongue:

Pink
2010-06-16, 02:01 PM
I already noted how reckless it would be but I think it'd be weird for me to be like "And then the guy throws the pregnant player off a cliff. Roll a *d*+* to determine whether you and your baby lives". I mean, how is that anyway fun for the campaign? How is getting pregnant fun in a tabletop game? I don't really understand that much.

Amazingly enough, there are these things called opinions, and, here's the tricky part, different people have different opinions. So while you may not see the fun in it, that doesn't stop a number of other people from seeing the story potential in having pregnant characters or NPCs (a few of which have been shared in this thread)

To repeat what was said earlier, should a DM have to give plot-armor to a character that's pregnant? Losing a child can be just as much of a roleplaying and storytelling opportunity. Not saying every battle should be done with such an opportunity or a DM should ever intentionally plan something (unless they're controlling really really evil villains, then maybe). However, if the player is playing a PC recklessly to the point where they're being knocked below 0, there should definitely be a chance of damage to the baby so matter what protective spells are being used.

I also like the idea of the ease pregnancy spell.

Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 02:02 PM
Get your Book of Vile Darkness out of my Book of Erotic Fantasy. They don't mix very well! Or more disturbingly they mix just fine, so quit. :smalltongue:

Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Erotic Fantasy and Book of Exalted Deeds: behold the Triforce of Mature D&D Splatbooks!

Eloi
2010-06-16, 02:09 PM
Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Erotic Fantasy and Book of Exalted Deeds: behold the Triforce of Mature D&D Splatbooks!

But my clone-sister, how is Exalted Deeds requiring of a mature label? I've always been curious since I don't own it: how can a book centering on good characters be considered not appropriate for younger players?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-16, 02:11 PM
Well, I mean, she is an adventurer traveling with a baby. What does she think is going to happen?

Adventurers get shot with arrows, gored with lances, knocked down by minotaurs, hit with fireballs, disintegrated, shocked with lightning, and, yes, thrown off of cliffs. What's the DM going to do, give her plot armor?

Really, the DM wouldn't be the one to blame, there.

Or, wait, actually, I haven't been following this thread. Is the lady just a commoner or something who's in the line of fire? Because if so, I mean, monsters are evil, and they do evil stuff like that.

There is no lady, there is no NPC in question its just theoretical rules. Someone brought up a easy fix 1st level spell ease pregnancy to just ignore any penalties and I commented what would that do if you get thrown off a cliff.
So yeah its kinda important on this one to keep up with the thread.


But my clone-sister, how is Exalted Deeds requiring of a mature label? I've always been curious since I don't own it: how can a book centering on good characters be considered not appropriate for younger players?

Because the exalted rules require you be a mature roleplayer and not a rules lawyer who looks for loop holes. It also has stuff like Stigmata which has real religious undertones.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 02:11 PM
But my clone-sister, how is Exalted Deeds requiring of a mature label? I've always been curious since I don't own it: how can a book centering on good characters be considered not appropriate for younger players?

There's a sketch of a topless angel on one page, and a picture of someone bleeding from wounds on their hands. I guess that qualifies as 'mature'.

Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 02:14 PM
But my clone-sister, how is Exalted Deeds requiring of a mature label? I've always been curious since I don't own it: how can a book centering on good characters be considered not appropriate for younger players?

I'm not quite sure myself. I guess some of the pictures in it drove it up a bit, that and that it also talks somewhat on subjects like poison, disease, drugs and sex, though not to the extent Vile Darkness does.

Also, I have to correct you slightly, as I'd be a clone-brother moreso. I just chose this avatar since I thought it was the prettiest of all. :smalltongue: (That and chicks in armour are something I love. Video games and movies need to balance the skimpy-clad female : armour-wearing female ratio more for my tastes.)

WarKitty
2010-06-16, 02:16 PM
There's actually some good ideas here. Some more rp-oriented groups would actually enjoy the challenge. I know my players would. (They all have a fair amount of plot armor on already, so that wouldn't be so much of an issue.)

Eloi
2010-06-16, 02:18 PM
I'm not quite sure myself. I guess some of the pictures in it drove it up a bit, that and that it also talks somewhat on subjects like poison, disease, drugs and sex, though not to the extent Vile Darkness does.

Also, I have to correct you slightly, as I'd be a clone-brother moreso. I just chose this avatar since I thought it was the prettiest of all. :smalltongue: (That and chicks in armour are something I love. Video games and movies need to balance the skimpy-clad female : armour-wearing female ratio more for my tastes.)
But I think maybe they just added the pictures/content to justify the label and not the other way around? Because that seems a little forced to me.

Off-topic: Oh my god an opposite-sex clone! I always wanted one of those!

Pink
2010-06-16, 02:25 PM
But I think maybe they just added the pictures/content to justify the label and not the other way around? Because that seems a little forced to me.

I don't think that WotC would want to justify the label, or even have the label there if they could help it maybe. I'm sure they'd rather be trying to sell books to all ages and such. More so I'm pretty sure it was there to prevent further D&D hate from the usual suspects that might go on about role-playing corrupting children or something.

Eh, is hard to say really.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 02:31 PM
I don't think that WotC would want to justify the label, or even have the label there if they could help it maybe. I'm sure they'd rather be trying to sell books to all ages and such. More so I'm pretty sure it was there to prevent further D&D hate from the usual suspects that might go on about role-playing corrupting children or something.

Eh, is hard to say really.

Well they could've been trying to make the books more of a 'set', and making them bought together. Also, 'Mature Label' usually invokes "Awww snap I want it" i.e. forbidden fruit effect, so I think that'd actually increase sales more than anything, in addition to the 'its a set!' with Book of Vile Darkness.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-16, 02:32 PM
I'm pretty sure there's a sidebar near the beginning of the book that explains the label. If memory serves it's mostly about similarities to real world religion and the fact that people might take the book's definition of good (which allows for killing people among other things) too seriously.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-16, 02:40 PM
Consider this idea snagged and altered to fit my purposes. (I'll leave a thank you note in the credits of the campaign.)
I'm glad you liked it; even I myself felt a little silly about it, cuz it kinda falls into somewhere between squick and immature "ooh, girl on girl is hawt" crap...

Anyway, if you're interested in the backstory, you can read it on the character's sheet (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=37518).

hamishspence
2010-06-16, 02:41 PM
Its definition of when it's OK to kill people is pretty strict though. Them being evil is not enough- they actually have to be aggressors of some kind.

"The mere existence of a village of evil orcs is not just cause for war against them- not if the orcs have been doing no harm"

That, combined with the idea that the children of evil races should be considered noncombatants in war against them, and not attacked (plus the notion that surrenders should be offered where possible, and that it's not OK to kill enemies who have surrendered out-of-hand)

makes it decidedly milder in its ideas of "What To Do About Evil Beings" than the PHB: "Alhandra, who fights evil without mercy (and protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good"

The BoED, makes mercy important, and suggests that Good characters should not become merciless.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-16, 02:44 PM
If they've been doing no harm, how are they Evil?

Eloi
2010-06-16, 02:44 PM
If they've been doing no harm, how are they Evil?

It says so in their Monster Manual description, silly.

Pink
2010-06-16, 02:46 PM
It says so in their Monster Manual description, silly.

But how do we know they were born orcs and not polymorphed into them by a bored wizard?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 02:47 PM
Ah, GiantITP, the only place on the internet where everything, including RPG pregnancies, eventually turns into an alignment discussion.

*opens a can of peanuts*

Morph Bark
2010-06-16, 02:47 PM
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... which becomes surprisingly easy if you're not yet born!

...dammit this brings up the whole case of abortion in DnD. Do not want! Nevermind the silly person! Moving on!

hamishspence
2010-06-16, 02:48 PM
Or "no harm to the neighbours" might be what's meant.

If the evil orcs are bullying parents and spouses, but never raid the neighbouring villages, its hard to justify waging war on them.

A recent Forgotten Realms novel (The Orc King) has the orcs make peace with their neighbours- but they are still basically evil. However, the neighbours can't attack them just for "being evil".

(not to mention that orcs are only "often chaotic evil" with the most common exception being CN according to MMIV, anyway.)

Eloi
2010-06-16, 02:50 PM
But how do we know they were born orcs and not polymorphed into them by a bored wizard?

"Dispel Curse" and then "Detect Alignment".


See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... which becomes surprisingly easy if you're not yet born!

...dammit this brings up the whole case of abortion in DnD. Do not want! Nevermind the silly person! Moving on!

I second the moving on notion! Capital idea, my opposite sex clone.

hamishspence
2010-06-16, 02:57 PM
Heroes of Horror does mention a monster which is dangerous even as an unborn baby- the unholy scion, with its ability to automatically control its mother.

Probably a shade too creepy for most games though.

Marriclay
2010-06-16, 03:24 PM
Heroes of Horror does mention a monster which is dangerous even as an unborn baby- the unholy scion, with its ability to automatically control its mother.

Probably a shade too creepy for most games though.

well, just look at the title of the book it's in! did you expect anything less? If I remember correctly there's even a bit about how to introduce horror to your campaign through changing a PC's gender. That's difficult to do.

Naia
2010-06-16, 03:24 PM
I mean, how is that anyway fun for the campaign? How is getting pregnant fun in a tabletop game? I don't really understand that much.

I actually once DM'ed a WFRP campaign where a player got married to an NPC adventurer from the party and she (the NPC) got pregnant. Towards the end of the pregnancy their missions were of a mostly diplomatic sort (trying to stop a civil war), but the birth was played out as solo play. The NPC had been posessed by the BBEG from the last adventure and he surfaced when she was in labour. I have seldom seen a player grow so white in the face! Bloody fun! But the little family survived mostly unscathed and took the rest of the year off... :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-06-16, 03:26 PM
HoH doesn't have a "Mature Content" sticker though- maybe they just gave up on that.

Even though some of the scenes in HoH adventures are nasty in the extreme- Grandmother and Uncle Chortle especially.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-16, 03:26 PM
I would say, just to rule of thumb it, that the first trimester would be no real penalties; maybe a saving throw v. fatigue or something on a daily basis. Second trimester, I'd look at medium encumbrance penalties... it's not a perfect solution, but it models a lot of the effects well enough. Third trimester, I'd move up to heavy encumbrance, and bring back the saves v. fatigue.

If I was going to model a chance of miscarriage, I'd probably do it based on when the character was "bloodied" (a concept we've brought to non-4e games as a handy reference) or when bad effects happened and required a fortitude save (so if you saved and there was no effect, you don't have to worry; if you made the save and there was still an effect, you'd have to re-save to avoid complications).

This is if I was called upon to adjudicate a pregnancy in-game.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 03:39 PM
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... which becomes surprisingly easy if you're not yet born!

...dammit this brings up the whole case of abortion in DnD. Do not want! Nevermind the silly person! Moving on!

Or, the most horrific assassination method ever: Hindsight+Detect Magic+Snowcasting+Flash Frost+Fell Drain, add Arcane Thesis(Detect Magic) to taste.

Coidzor
2010-06-16, 03:47 PM
^: What does Hindsight do now?
Because the exalted rules require you be a mature roleplayer and not a rules lawyer who looks for loop holes. It also has stuff like Stigmata which has real religious undertones.

I don't know what's more disturbing. That I didn't know what those were and kept thinking of Astigmatism and was wondering what blindness had to do with religious undertones or the fact that Lady Gaga and stigmata came up on the first google search page. :smalleek:

On the topic of horrible things that can be done with pregnant women, imagine the undead possibilities of the combo. Like some kind of demented combination of a kangaroo and H.H. Geiger.

Worira
2010-06-16, 05:33 PM
On the topic of falling from heights while pregnant: Pregnancy doesn't make you immune to pit traps, or being bullrushed off a fortress wall, or being telekinetically hurled. And just because you can perform HANO jumps and walk away unharmed, doesn't mean your child can.

On the subject of undead: I think you don't get much more creepy than a regular zombie, with a mention that she was pregnant.

Was.

PersonMan
2010-06-16, 05:45 PM
And just because you can perform HANO jumps and walk away unharmed, doesn't mean your child can.

HANO? What does that stand for?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-16, 05:47 PM
^: What does Hindsight do now?


Lets you scry into the past, basically. You use it on the spot where your assassination target was born. Details are yours to pour brain bleach on.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 05:47 PM
^: What does Hindsight do now?
It makes you realize everything you know is wrong and that you're an utter jerk. Alternatively, it could do stuff mentioned here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030103a

Worira
2010-06-16, 05:49 PM
HANO? What does that stand for?

High Altitude No Opening.

PersonMan
2010-06-16, 05:50 PM
High Altitude No Opening.

...I see. That's...odd.

Dr.Epic
2010-06-16, 05:53 PM
Their top speed would be waddle.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-16, 07:31 PM
...I see. That's...odd.

Given HP totals and maximum falling damage, it's not uncommon in D&D.


Their top speed would be waddle.

That's where the encumbrance penalties play into it; while the child isn't all that heavy, the weight is very inconveniently placed for carriage.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-16, 08:05 PM
You know, before this thread even exited I had an idea for a side adventure where the group finds a couple on the side of the road with the woman about to give birth. The idea was they could either a) not help because they are in a rush b), assist with the delivery while fending off creatures attracted by the smell and cries, c) go back to town for a healer d) split the group and do b) and c) ,or e) something else entirely.
Now, if I am going DM b and d, and possibly e, I wonder how that would be done mechanically. Heal checks with description? What kind of complications should arise from failed ones? She pushes to hard and starts bleeding? What else?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-16, 08:14 PM
You know, before this thread even exited I had an idea for a side adventure where the group finds a couple on the side of the road with the woman about to give birth. The idea was they could either a) not help because they are in a rush b), assist with the delivery while fending off creatures attracted by the smell and cries, c) go back to town for a healer d) split the group and do b) and c) ,or e) something else entirely.
Now, if I am going DM b and d, and possibly e, I wonder how that would be done mechanically. Heal checks with description? What kind of complications should arise from failed ones? She pushes to hard and starts bleeding? What else?

It's a good idea not to overulle much...Just make it a succession of heal checks:10 to give birth, 12 to see if the kid lives, another 12 to see if the mother lives. Or rather have all these three be replacements for similar fort saves. Remember that birth is a mundane enough thing that it can happen unattended and leave everyone alive, and most trained personnel are able to attend to one with low(ish) failure rates. And "trained personnel" is pretty much level 1-2 specialists.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-16, 08:29 PM
You know, before this thread even exited I had an idea for a side adventure where the group finds a couple on the side of the road with the woman about to give birth. The idea was they could either a) not help because they are in a rush b), assist with the delivery while fending off creatures attracted by the smell and cries, c) go back to town for a healer d) split the group and do b) and c) ,or e) something else entirely.
Now, if I am going DM b and d, and possibly e, I wonder how that would be done mechanically. Heal checks with description? What kind of complications should arise from failed ones? She pushes to hard and starts bleeding? What else?

Heal checks would probably be the best. I would say, if you want to put it up to the player's skill primarily, is require X number of successful Heal checks, with each check taking Y time. Simple failures (within Z of the DC) simply result in time passed. Bad failures (Z+1 from the DC, or natural 1s, if you like) result in complications. She may start bleeding. It may be that a previously unnoticed problem becomes evident ("Oh, crap, the baby's breech!").

To turn it into a dicefest, rule that they need something like 3d6 DC (15-20, maybe dependent upon race) Heal checks in order to birth the child. Each failed check adds +1 to the DC, or forces a Fortitude check from the mother at the current DC. It makes things REALLY mechanical, but it would work.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-16, 08:51 PM
Heal checks would probably be the best. I would say, if you want to put it up to the player's skill primarily, is require X number of successful Heal checks, with each check taking Y time. Simple failures (within Z of the DC) simply result in time passed. Bad failures (Z+1 from the DC, or natural 1s, if you like) result in complications. She may start bleeding. It may be that a previously unnoticed problem becomes evident ("Oh, crap, the baby's breech!").

To turn it into a dicefest, rule that they need something like 3d6 DC (15-20, maybe dependent upon race) Heal checks in order to birth the child. Each failed check adds +1 to the DC, or forces a Fortitude check from the mother at the current DC. It makes things REALLY mechanical, but it would work.
I like this idea. Yes, it's very mechanical, but it also gives the player(s) who stays with the couple something to do round by round as the others fight off the creatures. At what level would you offer this challenge to the players?

onthetown
2010-06-16, 09:28 PM
Might have already been said, but... if the pregnant character dies and they get resurrected, they're going to have to decide whether or not they want the cleric to also resurrect the baby. I'm not sure if one resurrection would be enough because it's two lives. Any sane mother would give an arm and a leg and the 5,000 gp to raise the kid, of course, but it'll be a hit to the group if they have to pitch in.

Agrippa
2010-06-16, 09:41 PM
Might have already been said, but... if the pregnant character dies and they get resurrected, they're going to have to decide whether or not they want the cleric to also resurrect the baby. I'm not sure if one resurrection would be enough because it's two lives. Any sane mother would give an arm and a leg and the 5,000 gp to raise the kid, of course, but it'll be a hit to the group if they have to pitch in.

I'd argue that most Good aligned would through in resurrecting the kid for free.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-16, 09:45 PM
What kind of complications should arise from failed ones? She pushes to hard and starts bleeding? What else?

But, if she starts bleeding wouldn't the cleric just cast Cure Light Wounds or Minor Vigor(I think that's the name of it)?

Magic takes a lot of the "oh no she's dying" out of it.

In fact... Resistance gives a +1 to saves for a minute, Guidance gives an extra stacking +1, Bear's Endurance gives an effective +2 to fort saves, Shield Other lets a much more durable PC soak some damage. In fact, a third level Cleric could get the mother through the birth process alive with ease. In that vein I would suggest a level 1 or 2 party to help with this. Definitely not 5th, 'cause then you start to question what Cure Disease does to a body.

ideasmith
2010-06-16, 11:53 PM
I recommend the pregnancy rules in The Quintessential Human. Not so much the rules for getting pregnant of the rules for children's stats (I made up my own house rules for those). Oh, and I suggest dropping the morning sickness rules. D&D is Fantasy Role Playing, not Reality Role Playing.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-17, 04:40 AM
But, if she starts bleeding wouldn't the cleric just cast Cure Light Wounds or Minor Vigor(I think that's the name of it)?

Magic takes a lot of the "oh no she's dying" out of it.

In fact... Resistance gives a +1 to saves for a minute, Guidance gives an extra stacking +1, Bear's Endurance gives an effective +2 to fort saves, Shield Other lets a much more durable PC soak some damage. In fact, a third level Cleric could get the mother through the birth process alive with ease. In that vein I would suggest a level 1 or 2 party to help with this. Definitely not 5th, 'cause then you start to question what Cure Disease does to a body.
I was thinking very low level would be good as well. And while she and the baby are unlikely to die, it does use party resources.
Is this too squicky though?

Morph Bark
2010-06-17, 04:46 AM
Heal checks would probably be the best. I would say, if you want to put it up to the player's skill primarily, is require X number of successful Heal checks, with each check taking Y time. Simple failures (within Z of the DC) simply result in time passed. Bad failures (Z+1 from the DC, or natural 1s, if you like) result in complications. She may start bleeding. It may be that a previously unnoticed problem becomes evident ("Oh, crap, the baby's breech!").

To turn it into a dicefest, rule that they need something like 3d6 DC (15-20, maybe dependent upon race) Heal checks in order to birth the child. Each failed check adds +1 to the DC, or forces a Fortitude check from the mother at the current DC. It makes things REALLY mechanical, but it would work.

Higher Heal DCs for certain races would make sense, at least in some campaign worlds. It would partly explain why they aren't greater in number (we all know that elves have low reproduction rates for one) or that their number is actually great, but due to high levels of danger or a primitive and/or violent culture they are kept in check (as with orcs).

The Dark Fiddler
2010-06-17, 09:02 AM
Is this too squicky though?

Depends entirely on your group.

My group would probably banish me forever from gaming with them if I tried it, because they're all wimpy little teenage guys who can't handle the thought of females (which is honestly pretty weird :smallconfused:). If your gaming group is different (and I so hope it is), even if it's still a bunch of teenage guys, but slightly more mature, then it should be fine.