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Gruffard
2010-06-16, 12:55 PM
My normal RPG group is interested in running a game based on comic style super heroes. I have ideas (a few) for a story, I don't want to get into that until I have a system. My group is familiar with D&D 2-4, Exalted 1st and 2nd edition, and some rando one shots like Anima.

Any suggestions? I rather not ad hoc or homebrew D&D or another system into something. I only looked at Mutants and Masterminds, and felt so-so about the system. I doesn't need to be d10 or d20 based, we be up for trying another system entirely.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

gbprime
2010-06-16, 12:57 PM
Hero system... Champions. It can do anything, and do it well. Character generation is a math excercise, but the game mechanics and play are both rock solid and streamlined.

Gruffard
2010-06-16, 01:48 PM
I think we can deal with longer character generation for smoother game play. I will take a look this weekend at the Core book, hopefully the local game shops carry it.
Thanks!

Escheton
2010-06-16, 03:05 PM
Here is crazy suggestion: How about Gurps supers?

gbprime
2010-06-16, 03:11 PM
Here is crazy suggestion: How about Gurps supers?

Gurps doesn't do superheroes very well. The game mechanics are comparatively poor, specifically defenses and passive defense. Given two characters of the same power level, one could put 25% of their points into a given attack, while the other one puts 90% of his points into a defense specifically against that attack... and still get flattened by that attack every single time.

Basically, the Gurps point-balancing system breaks down after a certain point level, whereas the Hero system doesn't really get going until you hit a minimum. The result... Gurps is superior for normal people, Hero is superior for superheroes.

Escheton
2010-06-16, 03:13 PM
That actually makes sense to me. It's a superpunch. You can;t stop a superpunch. You can shrug off the damage and whipe the bits of car and wall of your shoulder. But you can't stop a superpunch.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-06-16, 03:17 PM
I know you said you felt so-so about it, but I really feel Mutants and Masterminds would be very good. I personally love the system, and if your group is familiar is D&D 3.x already, there won't be too much of a learning curve with the basics, rather just the differences and the specifics.

Mando Knight
2010-06-16, 03:18 PM
That actually makes sense to me. It's a superpunch. You can;t stop a superpunch. You can shrug off the damage and whipe the bits of car and wall of your shoulder. But you can't stop a superpunch.

Yeah, but Mr. Unpunchable should be able to deflect a punch from Generically Strong Superguy most of the time.

gbprime
2010-06-16, 03:19 PM
That actually makes sense to me. It's a superpunch. You can;t stop a superpunch. You can shrug off the damage and whipe the bits of car and wall of your shoulder. But you can't stop a superpunch.

True, but at the end of the day, does the game system bear that out? If the Inedible Bulk and Da Ting are evenly matched, they should be able to trade punches for a while. In Hero, they can. In Gurps, they tend to one-shot each other. Not good.

aeauseth
2010-06-16, 03:27 PM
I've use the Champions rules. Very versitile. Almost too much so. I'd recommend limiting the use of disadvantages and power frameworks for your first venture into this system.

There is a 6th edition (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74717-The-HERO-System-6th-Edition) out, but any 3rd edition or higher is just fine.

Aeromyre
2010-06-16, 03:30 PM
Mutants and Masterminds is amazing made by Green Ronin, core rulebook is all you need

though, Ultimate power is a good book

Dizlag
2010-06-16, 03:39 PM
I recommend the Savage Worlds System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Worlds) and specifically their Necessary Evil Campaign Setting (http://www.amazon.com/Necessary-Evil-Explorers-Savage-S2P10011/dp/0979245524/). It's a setting where aliens have taken over the Earth, killed all the super heroes, and it's up to super villains (the players) to save it. A pretty interesting spin on a campaign setting, in my opinion.

They do have a Super Powers Companion (http://www.amazon.com/Powers-Companion-Savage-Worlds-S2P10501/dp/0981987400/) book for rules on creating super heroes if you don't want to go the super villain route as in Necessary Evil and run your own world setting.

Over all the Savage Worlds rules are pretty light, fast, and a ton of fun!

Enjoy!

Dizlag

T.G. Oskar
2010-06-16, 04:16 PM
My normal RPG group is interested in running a game based on comic style super heroes. I have ideas (a few) for a story, I don't want to get into that until I have a system. My group is familiar with D&D 2-4, Exalted 1st and 2nd edition, and some rando one shots like Anima.

Any suggestions? I rather not ad hoc or homebrew D&D or another system into something. I only looked at Mutants and Masterminds, and felt so-so about the system. I doesn't need to be d10 or d20 based, we be up for trying another system entirely.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

With you on M&M. I've seen the system and saw it as unnecessarily complex, plus far too contained. But that's just me.

I see you're familiar with Exalted, so I could recommend Aberrant (from the Trinity Universe). Aberrant isn't exactly easily available (though I reckon you can get most of the books through DriveThruRpg.com), but it's a nice take on superpowers. If you want to go the super-hero path, though, it's best advised to play as part of Project Utopia, which are the de-facto superheroes of the world. Just be aware: not every Nova (the game's term for supers) is a superhero or supervillain in that world.

Aeromyre
2010-06-16, 04:18 PM
With you on M&M. I've seen the system and saw it as unnecessarily complex, plus far too contained. But that's just me.

I see you're familiar with Exalted, so I could recommend Aberrant (from the Trinity Universe). Aberrant isn't exactly easily available (though I reckon you can get most of the books through DriveThruRpg.com), but it's a nice take on superpowers. If you want to go the super-hero path, though, it's best advised to play as part of Project Utopia, which are the de-facto superheroes of the world. Just be aware: not every Nova (the game's term for supers) is a superhero or supervillain in that world.

M&M is the most simple d20 I have ever seen/played, anyone can pick up and play

Neon Knight
2010-06-16, 04:24 PM
Personally, I'd recommend MnM for a slightly more complicated D20 based approach, and Savage Worlds for a more system light approach. MnM is really a very solid game, and it does supers very well. Savage Worlds is just a good system, and is flexible enough to cover it as well.

Also, Wushu is a possibility, but Wushu isn't just system light, it is really best described as system minimalist, and given your group's past experiences I'm not sure if that appeals to you.

hangedman1984
2010-06-16, 05:42 PM
Mutants&Materminds, 1000 times Mutants&Masterminds

CroydThoth
2010-06-16, 05:53 PM
I've tried Capes and enjoyed it. it's much more of a joint storytelling game than most RPGs, however.

Natael
2010-06-16, 05:58 PM
GURPS works pretty well for it, despite what some have said (also, passive defense no longer exists in GURPS 4e, so perhaps 4e is better at it than 3e).

Though if you are going to run a supers game, you most likely want to get your hands on the Powers book, which is the one "splat" book that adds a lot in terms of extra abilities and good details on setting up characters of the super hero persuasion. The guidelines for how powerful a normal person is, how to give appropriate thresholds to attacks and armor, and how to give some balance to powers are all there between GURPS base set and Powers (the Supers book has a few nice things, but I have not found more than a passive use for it beyond Base Set and Powers).

There are also many cinematic optional rules all over just about every book to help give the appropriate feel to your game, be it hard realism, comic books, or an action movie.

The thing about GURPS is that it is much more of a tool box than your standard D&D, and even rather loose point systems like Shadowrun (which runs much how GURPS would if a GM already put in the effort to restrict appropriate abilities).

On the other hand, you could use something like Risus (which is free if you just hit a google search), which makes for a very quick, abstract system that is rather nice as well.

I have not played Mutants and Masterminds before, but I hear many good things about it, a bit in the middle of D&D and GURPS as far as mechanics go I believe.

Set
2010-06-16, 06:04 PM
GURPS bases it's balance entirely on points spent, and that has zero effect on how strong your attacks or defenses may be. One 500 CP super could have an attack that does 5 dice and DR 15, and a vast array of neat utility powers, while the other has a 25 die attack and a DR of 75.

Aberrant, while a fun setting, is even more extreme in this fashion, as a Nova might credibly be able to punch someone with 25 automatic successes on damage, while it's hard to get a defense that will come close to blocking this sort of damage. It's a very deadly system, best suited for a more Authority / Ultimates style game, where life is cheap.

M&M has built in 'caps' to prevent this sort of mismatch, but then uses a d20 for resolution, making combat pretty swingy.

Here (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20940&start=3705) is an *insane* thread where a guy runs a combat between 12 members of the Acolytes, 12 members of the Dark Riders and 12 members of the Serpent Society in a 'Tournament of Suck.' (Since each of these teams is generally made up of 'jobber' villains who get mowed down a lot in their published appearances.) The first thread links to the online character write-ups for each of the characters, to get an example for how to build them, and then he briefly details how the combat goes in a series of posts.

There are, literally, thousands of builds in that forum, by various people, so that you can find builds for many comic characters (sometimes a half-dozen builds by different people, for popular characters), anime characters, TV show characters, etc. Whatever comes out, someone will adapt. (This last week, I saw a thread statting up the new A-Team, for instance.)

There are also some decent 'fight!' threads, in which experienced players run battles between groups or single characters, including some fun 'Batman vs. Punisher vs. the dude from Equilibrium!' fights.

Hyfigh
2010-06-16, 06:21 PM
I'm going to suggest M&M as well.

The system is D20 based, so should be familiar. The powers can seem intimidating to put together but the official forums (google atomic think tank) have quite a few resources to show you examples of how things work.

The system is really open ended, so you can do practically anything you want with it. You're not just limited to playing comic characters. I've designed an entire fantasy setting around the system.

It's my favorite PnP system to date.

Draz74
2010-06-16, 08:44 PM
If my group was about to try a superheroes campaign, and were discussing what system to use, I would vote for Risus. M&M would be my second choice.

That said, I've never actually played either one. I'm just going by the reputations they have, and my own opinions formed by looking over their rules. And my current mood at the moment. :smallwink:

Cuaqchi
2010-06-16, 09:41 PM
There are really only two options worth mentioning. (And they're worth mentioning multiple times)

Hero System/Champions - Pluses - Solid system, very indepth. Negatives - Very intensive for newer gamers, and a headache for even the most experienced. Mixed - Uses the 'rarest' maps of all; Hex grid.

Mutants and Masterminds (2nd Ed.) - Pluses - Well designed and easy to learn d20 base. Mixed - Map Free. Results in faster more comic book style action, but may require some thought as to just how far, or fast something is moving.

Almost every other system either tries to hard or doesn't try hard enough and results with a mangled system that just hurts to play.

hamlet
2010-06-17, 08:06 AM
I've tried Capes and enjoyed it. it's much more of a joint storytelling game than most RPGs, however.

I love that game. It can get so silly.

I also recommend what I always recommend because nobody else will: Palladium's Heroes Unlimited. Pretty flexible and variable and infinately fun when you don't take it too seriously. Easily tunable power levels. Takes maybe 15 minutes to learn the gist of it, a couple of sessions to learn the nitty gritty.

Saintjebus
2010-06-17, 08:26 AM
I'm going to have to throw in for Savage Worlds. It's the most elegent system I've ever played, and works really well for supers.

Gruffard
2010-06-17, 09:17 AM
Wow, thanks for all the suggestions.

Okay where to start.

M&M, after reading all the above mentioned information, the built in caps seemed forced and I didn't like but with the above arguments it now sounds like a good thing. I will look into it. Thanks.

GURPS: I have looked at the book, its huge and very intimidating, not sure if I want to not only learn gurps but then use a variant of the system before I know the base. Most likely out but I will look into it.

Savage worlds: From what I have heard it is a bit gritty and more lethal then average. Unless the super variant lessens it. Can anyone elaborate more on that?

Capes: Group story telling? and very silly? sounds interesting but more details please.

Hero System/Champion: The Hex grid will not be a problem, our play map is double sided and has hexes on the other side. The note that its intensive and a headache for new players. Is that character creation or actually playing? Cause I know most of my group will not mind spending time making the characters, but will be annoyed at tons of rule look ups during fights.

Don't want this to become a wall of text but I will look into them all Risus and Heroes unlimited, Extra.

Again, thanks for all the input.

vartan
2010-06-17, 09:17 AM
+1 for Mutants and Masterminds.

There is a 3rd Edition and/or the upcoming DCU game to get excited about- if you get interested in the system and/or can wait a while to start said game.

Natael
2010-06-17, 09:23 AM
Wow, thanks for all the suggestions.
GURPS: I have looked at the book, its huge and very intimidating, not sure if I want to not only learn gurps but then use a variant of the system before I know the base. Most likely out but I will look into it.


There is technically no variant, and the optional rules for cinematics tend to be no more than a paragraph in length, with very little crunch.

Regardless:

GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/) rules are here, which are a short 32 page overview of the game, and enough rules to run a campaign (though it would tend toward a more mundane game).

Gruffard
2010-06-17, 10:25 AM
GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/) rules are here, which are a short 32 page overview of the game, and enough rules to run a campaign (though it would tend toward a more mundane game).

Ooh Lite looks like something I can demo to get a better feel. Thanks.

Scorpina
2010-06-17, 10:36 AM
I have to say Mutants & Masterminds. It's a really easy system to use, and very flexible for that. I've played a few campaigns in it and had a lot of fun.

Of course, I haven't used the other systems being discussed. So, yeah.

Dizlag
2010-06-17, 12:44 PM
Savage worlds: From what I have heard it is a bit gritty and more lethal then average. Unless the super variant lessens it. Can anyone elaborate more on that?


The Savage Worlds system is a bit open in terms of grittiness, meaning you can make it gritty or not gritty. Now, there might be campaign settings and DMs that are gritty (The Savage World of Solomon Kane ... I can see the grit in this). I would consider Necessary Evil light on the grit, unless you consider aliens out to get you gritty. :smallsmile:

The lethality of the game is average because of the "wild card" system meaning the players are "wild cards" or like "bosses", not minions (1 wound an out), and have the ability to soak wounds. They don't have the hit points concept like D&D, just wound levels in the game and abilities to allow you to ignore the penalty of wounds.

Again, you can make Savage Worlds as gritty or as lethal as you want ... it's all up to the players and the DM.

EDIT: For the supers variant on the system ... the supers variant definitely makes the players more powerful. If you take a Novice ranked Super Villain from the Necessary Evil setting and put him in the 50 Fathoms setting ... he could probably take on a Seasoned character. Compare that to a 1st level fighter whooping up on a 4th or 5th lvl fighter in D&D. With that increase in power you have to crank up the baddies, so it all scales up together if you understand my meaning.

Hope that helps a little bit,

Dizlag

Severus
2010-06-17, 12:49 PM
Hero all the way. It _is_ a more complicated system to set up, but it was designed initially for superhero and really shines there. It's very versatile.

I do not like GURPS. It is far to easy to off the rails in power balance with gurps. I think it is just poorly designed with too much dependence on the main stats.

Gruffard
2010-06-17, 02:02 PM
Thanks for the feedbacks and follow ups. (Dizlag and Severus)