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Person_Man
2010-06-17, 09:07 AM
I love Magic of Incarnum. So much so that I've heavily contributed to several handbooks on the subject, and rewritten the Soulborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8716380) (twice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121)!).

But after playing with MoI and DMing other players using it for a couple of years now, I've realized that it's a phenomenal concept with horribly cumbersome crunch. So I've decided to re-write the system from scratch, leaving out all fluff (because that's already been covered - in fact, it's probably the best part of the book), but straitening out the crunch.


Problem: Essentia capacity is confusing. It's a combination of your Hit Die, class abilities gained from Incarnum classes, a feat, and magic items. This also leads to a gp and feat "tax" in that you always want/need the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat and Incarnum Focus items (25,000 gp each) for your favorite soulmeld(s).

Proposed Solution: Make essentia capacity a strait formula: Incarnum class levels + 1/2 all other class levels and racial hit die (similar to ToB). Increase the amount of essentia points gained from Incarnum classes, but decrease the bonuses it provides. For example, an Incarnate might get 50 points of essentia over 20 levels, but each point only provides a +1 bonus to whatever. (This also solves the annoying problem of keeping track of dozens of different essentia bonus formulas).


Problem: Incarnum feats are confusing and 90% of them are useless. You can only invest essentia in them "once per day," which is a different essentia mechanic then soulmelds.

Proposed Solution: Eliminate most incarnum feats. Fold their abilities into class abilities and soulmelds and create new ones as needed.


Problem: Many soulmelds and chakra binds are duplicative and/or weak and/or useless at the level they can be gained.

Proposed Solution: Consolidate existing soulmelds, write new ones as needed.


Problem: The process of shaping soulmelds and binding them to your chakra slots is confusing.

Proposed Solution: Eliminate chakra binds, and roll their abilities into soulmelds. Each soulmeld will have a one base ability, plus you gain a second ability if you have at least X points of essentia invested in the soulmeld.


These are the big fixes, and I'm sure I'll find other little ones as well. But before I spent several weeks writing, I wanted to get peoples feedback on my proposed solutions. So, what do you think?

lesser_minion
2010-06-17, 09:15 AM
I don't have any incarnum play experience, but to me, the chakra binds thing seems reasonably intuitive.

I'd prefer to re-write magic items from the ground up so that they use similar (or at least compatible-sounding) terms.

In essence, it's just "shaped soulmeld = spell effect", "bound soulmeld = slotted magic item".

I'm not convinced that should be an issue.

gbprime
2010-06-17, 09:24 AM
My gaming group ignores Incarnum altogether, precisely because it's needlessly overcomplicated. I'll be interested to see what you end up doing with it.

Melayl
2010-06-17, 09:32 AM
The chakra binds are, IMO, an important and flavorful part of Incarnum. I would suggest keeping them. They're not hard to figure out. I would increase the power of chakra binding a soulmeld (as you say, some are underpowered when you can finally use them).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-17, 09:36 AM
My major question is why you're changing essentia and chakras/binding. The feats are pretty much useless and some of the soulmelds overlap, so I have no problem with that. However, part of the big draw of incarnum is being able to adapt your strategy on the fly by reallocating essentia, and the tiering of chakra binds allows for consistent growth in soulmeld powers; changing things to the point that you can basically fill every meld and melds all get secondary benefits at the same time removes most of the incentive to play it.

Now, there are very real issues with essentia and melds you might want to fix (like increasing essentia in the current system so you can bring more than 1 or 2 melds to max capacity, remove the items/feats and simply increase capacity across the board, and lower the levels you get new binds at), but I don't think changing the entire basis of the system is a good idea.

Glimbur
2010-06-17, 10:21 AM
Problem: Essentia capacity is confusing. It's a combination of your Hit Die, class abilities gained from Incarnum classes, a feat, and magic items. This also leads to a gp and feat "tax" in that you always want/need the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat and Incarnum Focus items (25,000 gp each) for your favorite soulmeld(s).

Proposed Solution: Make essentia capacity a strait formula: Incarnum class levels + 1/2 all other class levels and racial hit die (similar to ToB). Increase the amount of essentia points gained from Incarnum classes, but decrease the bonuses it provides. For example, an Incarnate might get 50 points of essentia over 20 levels, but each point only provides a +1 bonus to whatever. (This also solves the annoying problem of keeping track of dozens of different essentia bonus formulas).

That's probably reasonable for the skill soulmelds, but what about the ones that give you +AC or +to hit and damage? That said, I don't like this idea because it makes multiclassing around Incarnum weaker.



Problem: Incarnum feats are confusing and 90% of them are useless. You can only invest essentia in them "once per day," which is a different essentia mechanic then soulmelds.

Proposed Solution: Eliminate most incarnum feats. Fold their abilities into class abilities and soulmelds and create new ones as needed.

For characters dedicated to Incarnum, the feats are pretty bad and sometimes I take one just for the +1 essentia. The special mechanic they have is pretty terribad. Remodeling them as soulmelds is probably feasible.




Problem: Many soulmelds and chakra binds are duplicative and/or weak and/or useless at the level they can be gained.

Proposed Solution: Consolidate existing soulmelds, write new ones as needed.

No argument here.


Problem: The process of shaping soulmelds and binding them to your chakra slots is confusing.

Proposed Solution: Eliminate chakra binds, and roll their abilities into soulmelds. Each soulmeld will have a one base ability, plus you gain a second ability if you have at least X points of essentia invested in the soulmeld.

I like chakra binds making it easier to design for when characters should get certain abilities. You also have to give up magic items in that slot (or spend feats) which makes for an interesting balancing act. This could probably also work, but I don't like it.

subject42
2010-06-17, 10:32 AM
I've played a few Incarnum characters and DMed for a few Incarnum PCs. You've hit a lot of the core issues.

The ones that we've always seen are:

"How much essentia am I allowed to invest?"
Oh crap, what binds do I have open?
What is the obscure effect provided by this meld?
Can I bind this yet? Can I shape it yet?
Yo dawg, I herd you like natural attacks, so I bound some claws to your claws so you can attack while you attack.


A straightforward "you can invest this much essentia" rule will help a lot. Combined with some housekeeping on the meld list it would help a lot.

Eliminating binds, or perhaps keeping a "bind" mechanic while eliminating chakras would help a lot as well.

Draz74
2010-06-17, 10:45 AM
I love Magic of Incarnum. So much so that I've heavily contributed to several handbooks on the subject, and [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8716380"]Problem: Essentia capacity is confusing. It's a combination of your Hit Die, class abilities gained from Incarnum classes, a feat, and magic items. This also leads to a gp and feat "tax" in that you always want/need the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat and Incarnum Focus items (25,000 gp each) for your favorite soulmeld(s).

Proposed Solution: Make essentia capacity a strait formula: Incarnum class levels + 1/2 all other class levels and racial hit die (similar to ToB). Increase the amount of essentia points gained from Incarnum classes, but decrease the bonuses it provides. For example, an Incarnate might get 50 points of essentia over 20 levels, but each point only provides a +1 bonus to whatever. (This also solves the annoying problem of keeping track of dozens of different essentia bonus formulas).
I agree that this is a source of complication, and that Incarnum would be more popular without it. But I have to say, your proposed solution is a pain to work out (what with having to adjust every single soulmeld's essentia-based effects), and it seems like it would be a pain to use. At the very least, you should use the term "meldshaper level" to describe this rule (since the formula you have written is, in fact, identical to the formula for meldshaper level). But I think I'd prefer something like a flat, non-level-dependent capacity that can be increased by feats or class abilities.


Problem: Incarnum feats are confusing and 90% of them are useless. You can only invest essentia in them "once per day," which is a different essentia mechanic then soulmelds.

Proposed Solution: Eliminate most incarnum feats. Fold their abilities into class abilities and soulmelds and create new ones as needed.
Most of them, I don't think should get eliminated. Frankly, just get rid of the stupid 1/day restriction and let people swap essentia in and out of them freely (just like soulmelds), then nerf any that have become overpowered.


Problem: Many soulmelds and chakra binds are duplicative and/or weak and/or useless at the level they can be gained.

Proposed Solution: Consolidate existing soulmelds, write new ones as needed.
Agreed.


Problem: The process of shaping soulmelds and binding them to your chakra slots is confusing.

Proposed Solution: Eliminate chakra binds, and roll their abilities into soulmelds. Each soulmeld will have a one base ability, plus you gain a second ability if you have at least X points of essentia invested in the soulmeld.

Hmmm, I think chakra binds are a pretty important and flavorful part of the mechanics. What I would recommend, however, is making all soulmelds take up a body slot. So even if they're not bound to a chakra, they keep you from wearing a magic item in that slot (sans feat). IMO most of the confusion about chakra binds comes from the distinction of when they do and don't interfere with having a magic item.

Zombieboots
2010-06-17, 11:25 AM
Agree with pretty much everything you said except two points:

Remove 90% the Incarnum feats entirely? I'm not sure I can get behind that. Half of the feat are for Multi/No-Incarnum Class characters. The fact they are weak and the arbitrary "Invest once per day" I agree with. I think they should just be "updated."

Removing the Chakra binds. I certainly agree they are a little over complicated but if you remove them completely and add your Essentia capacity fix I feel that you will pretty much be left with "Floating Spells/Power" that resemble the psionic powers.

Thats my two cents.

Completely unrelated: Although I like Incarnum I never understood the whole "Magic-magic Item" binding to your Chakra. Chakra has historically/mythologically dealt with people into Monastic Training, you know, Monks. Even you Crazy-kids watching your Naruto know that Chakra deals more with Ninjas Magic then Semi-Solid Armor that look like Animals.
This has nothing to do with the topic I just felt like sharing. Sorry to go off-Topic.

Zore
2010-06-17, 11:54 AM
Hmmm, I think chakra binds are a pretty important and flavorful part of the mechanics. What I would recommend, however, is making all soulmelds take up a body slot. So even if they're not bound to a chakra, they keep you from wearing a magic item in that slot (sans feat). IMO most of the confusion about chakra binds comes from the distinction of when they do and don't interfere with having a magic item.

That would hurt the Totemist pretty bad, as how would you deal with things that can be bound to multiple slots? Or the fact most of their melds suck without being bound. Or the Melds bound to the Totem chakra?

Draz74
2010-06-17, 12:01 PM
That would hurt the Totemist pretty bad, as how would you deal with things that can be bound to multiple slots?
Oh, I thought those should still only occupy one slot. Shaper's choice.


Or the fact most of their melds suck without being bound.
And my idea makes that fact worse, how? :smallconfused:

Regardless, I have no problem with buffing up soulmelds if their taking up a body slot makes them underpowered (which, in some cases, it surely will). Incarnum classes will need to be strong if they only get partial benefits out of WBL!


Or the Melds bound to the Totem chakra?
I thought those would stay pretty much the same: the Totemist essentially has an additional body slot that nobody else has. Totem chakra bindings wouldn't prevent any magic item use.

Zore
2010-06-17, 12:08 PM
And my idea makes that fact worse, how? :smallconfused:


Because now they can't get the minor benefits at all and don't use most of their granted melds because they also take up a slot. They go from kind of an okay minor bonus to an active hindrance.

Draz74
2010-06-17, 12:28 PM
Because now they can't get the minor benefits at all and don't use most of their granted melds because they also take up a slot. They go from kind of an okay minor bonus to an active hindrance.

Oh, so your problem wasn't actually that they suck when unbound ... it was that you actually like using them unbound. :smalltongue:

Yes, I think my suggestion would make Incarnum much more accessible, but I do not deny that it is a nerf. And that unbound Soulmelds would therefore have to be improved to make up for their competition with magic items.

Though at low levels, you won't really have many body slot-requiring magic items anyway. And at high levels, you can Bind more soulmelds.

Tavar
2010-06-17, 12:31 PM
Oh, so your problem wasn't actually that they suck when unbound ... it was that you actually like using them unbound. :smalltongue:

Yes, I think my suggestion would make Incarnum much more accessible, but I do not deny that it is a nerf. And that unbound Soulmelds would therefore have to be improved to make up for their competition with magic items.

Though at low levels, you won't really have many body slot-requiring magic items anyway. And at high levels, you can Bind more soulmelds.

Still, unless you completely re-write the entire soulmeld library, they're practically worthless.

Person_Man
2010-06-21, 11:05 AM
That's probably reasonable for the skill soulmelds, but what about the ones that give you +AC or +to hit and damage? That said, I don't like this idea because it makes multiclassing around Incarnum weaker.

Hmmm. That's an important point. OK then, I'll just keep everything on a standard formula. Skill bonuses will all be 4 + (2*essentia), and everything else will be 1 for 1 or 1 for 1d6.


Hmmm, I think chakra binds are a pretty important and flavorful part of the mechanics. What I would recommend, however, is making all soulmelds take up a body slot. So even if they're not bound to a chakra, they keep you from wearing a magic item in that slot (sans feat). IMO most of the confusion about chakra binds comes from the distinction of when they do and don't interfere with having a magic item.

I agree. In my new system, each soulmeld will take up an item slot (ring, helmet, gauntlets, weapon, etc). Shaping a soulmeld fills that slot. There are 9 base slots, plus 2 rings, plus items that you can hold (including weapons). At mid levels I'll give each incarnum class the ability to "double up" on some magic item slots, which should also fix the problem of high level meldshapers not being able to use most magic items without a feat tax.



Remove 90% the Incarnum feats entirely? I'm not sure I can get behind that. Half of the feat are for Multi/No-Incarnum Class characters. The fact they are weak and the arbitrary "Invest once per day" I agree with. I think they should just be "updated."

Since essentia capacity will scale with HD more effectively, and chakra bind powers will kick in once you've invested enough essentia, you won't need the "Open X Chakra" feats. I'll also be sure to update the feats and soulmelds designed for multi-class meldshapers.



That would hurt the Totemist pretty bad, as how would you deal with things that can be bound to multiple slots? Or the fact most of their melds suck without being bound. Or the Melds bound to the Totem chakra?

I'm rewriting all of the soulmelds. Some things that were chakra binds will be moved to base abilities, others will be triggered once you've invested enough essentia into them. Redendant abilities will be removed, my own ideas (and any ideas from the community!) will be added. And I'll be sure to balance things accordingly.

Is there any other feedback I should consider?