[4E] Fighter: Guardian or Tempest?

[Kiero]

We're playing in a couple of weeks, and while I was set on playing a sword and board Guardian, I'm wondering a little if I'd prefer to play a Tempest.

The rest of the party is a Tiefling (Kinetic) Psion, Dragonborn (Thaneborn) Barbarian and Wemic (reskinned Longtooth Shifter) Runepriest.

My original build was thus:


Sergeant Castus Brandt, level 8
Human, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Aglarond (Aglarond Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 26 Fort: 23 Reflex: 21 Will: 20
HP: 71 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +12, Perception +13, Endurance +9, Athletics +11, Stealth +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Nature +7, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4

FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Warrior of the Wild
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Shield Push
Level 6: Shield Defense
Level 8: Fighter Weapon Specialization

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Shield Riposte
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Endure Pain
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier)*, Demonscale Drakescale Armor +2, Amulet of Physical Resolve +2, Distance Javelin +1, Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier)*, Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (5), Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Dread Longsword +2, Adventurer's Kit

*GM houseruled that these can work together


But I'm considering this:


Sergeant Castus Brandt, level 8
Human, Fighter
Build: Tempest Fighter
Fighter: Combat Agility
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique
Background: Aglarond (Aglarond Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 24 Fort: 23 Reflex: 21 Will: 19
HP: 71 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +11, Perception +12, Endurance +10, Athletics +12, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Nature +6, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6

FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Warrior of the Wild
Level 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 6: Quick Draw
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Endure Pain
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Amulet of Physical Resolve +2, Distance Javelin +1, Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (5), Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Belt of the Brawler (heroic tier), Versatile Finemail +2, Paired Short sword +2 (2)*

*Doesn't actually have two of these, but had to put two in so the CB would split them.



I still have a 1st level At-will to select, couldn't find an alternative one. Threatening Rush?

Is Combat Agility worth it in place of Combat Superiority?

[Kurald Galain]

We're playing in a couple of weeks, and while I was set on playing a sword and board Guardian, I'm wondering a little if I'd prefer to play a Tempest.
Well, that depends on what you want out of your fighter. If you want to deal more damage, go tempest. If you want to be a better defender, go guardian. In the latter case, consider dropping your shield in favor of a reach weapon.

I would recommend starting with at least 16 strength, ending at 20. This does much more for your build than a mixture of con, dex, and wis. Pick two of those, dump the third.

Quick Draw isn't very useful unless you have many weapons or potions to switch between. Note the combo of Polearm Momentum + Rushing Cleats, which drops enemies prone with Footwork Lure and several other attacks. And combat superiority is much better than agility, because there are few defender effects better than stopping enemy movement on an OA.

Tide of Iron is probably not necessary; you can always Bull Rush if something really needs pushing. I find Cleave to be a good choice. Endure Pain is decent, but an encounter movement utility may be more useful. Likewise, I'd recommend Acrobat or Fencing boots over Catstep, and Martial Power has a feat that gives a big save bonus against slow/immobilize. You're a melee character, so make sure you can get to melee.

Finally, I would recommend investing in some items that give you elemental resistance.

[Kiero]

Well, that depends on what you want out of your fighter. If you want to deal more damage, go tempest. If you want to be a better defender, go guardian. In the latter case, consider dropping your shield in favor of a reach weapon.

I'm quite happy with the Guardian I've got, it's more about the Tempest.


I would recommend starting with at least 16 strength, ending at 20. This does much more for your build than a mixture of con, dex, and wis. Pick two of those, dump the third.

Scores aren't changing, I'm afraid.


Quick Draw isn't very useful unless you have many weapons or potions to switch between. Note the combo of Polearm Momentum + Rushing Cleats, which drops enemies prone with Footwork Lure and several other attacks. And combat superiority is much better than agility, because there are few defender effects better than stopping enemy movement on an OA.

Quick Draw also has an incidental bonus to Initiative, and works well with the Paired Shortsword (split or recombine as free action, rather than minor), so no fumbling about with minor actions getting ready. Also means no delays when chucking the javelin about and switching.

I'll switch Combat Agility back to Combat Superiority.


Tide of Iron is probably not necessary; you can always Bull Rush if something really needs pushing. I find Cleave to be a good choice. Endure Pain is decent, but an encounter movement utility may be more useful. Likewise, I'd recommend Acrobat or Fencing boots over Catstep, and Martial Power has a feat that gives a big save bonus against slow/immobilize. You're a melee character, so make sure you can get to melee.

For the Guardian ToI is just completing the controller-y bits of moving enemies about.

For the Tempest, I'm thinking Threatening Rush mostly for the "mark all adjacent".

You thinking Pass Forward in place of Endure Pain?

Not convinced on the Acrobat Boots, don't think we had any characters knocked prone last time around. Reducing standing up from move to minor action isn't that big a deal. What are the Fencing Boots? I suspect I can't afford them.

Not sure I need more save bonuses, between Human Perseverance and the Amulet of Physical Resolve, that's +3 against slow/immobilise.


Finally, I would recommend investing in some items that give you elemental resistance.

Cost is a big barrier, we've got three items plus 2600gp, and I don't have much left. I can afford a Demonskin tattoo, though.

I like that the Versatile Armour gives me the option of moving faster when closing for the sacrifice of a point of AC. The Guardian had Demonscale Drakescale, which has elemental reasistances.

[Kiero]

Midnight Blade Student or Mobile Challenge are possible replacements for Quick Draw.

[Yakk]

Nimble Blade isn't bad either -- with your crappy strength, +1 to hit will help more than on other characters.

[Kiero]

Nimble Blade isn't bad either -- with your crappy strength, +1 to hit will help more than on other characters.

That's only with Combat Advantage, though.

[cupkeyk]

Why not tempest sword and board with a paired spiked shield?.. then you can do that dragon pp with two shields with your tempests fighter.

[Kiero]

Why not tempest sword and board with a paired spiked shield?.. then you can do that dragon pp with two shields with your tempests fighter.

No spiked shields, no double weapons. Not under any circumstances, no matter how mechanically "good" they might be.

Besides that also means double the Str/Dex penalty that I've avoided by dropping a shield altogether. Having mobility choices and not sucking at Athletics, Endurance and Stealth is why I chose the Versatile Armour.

There will probably be no levelling in this game (last one we did started at 7th and went to 8th, this will start at 8th and won't have any advancement) so Paragon Paths aren't a consideration.

Current build is now thus:

Castus Brandt, level 8
Human, Fighter
Build: Tempest Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique
Background: Aglarond (Aglarond Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 24 Fort: 23 Reflex: 21 Will: 19
HP: 71 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +11, Perception +12, Endurance +10, Athletics +12, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Nature +6, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6

FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Warrior of the Wild
Level 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 6: Midnight Blade Student
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Threatening Rush
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Endure Pain
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Amulet of Physical Resolve +2, Distance Javelin +1, Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (5), Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Belt of the Brawler (heroic tier), Versatile Finemail +2, Paired Short sword +2 (2), Potion of Resistance (heroic tier) (2), Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier)