PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] WBL in the big city.



Hallavast
2010-06-17, 12:39 PM
WARNING: this is a long post, and has several part questions/discussion

How often/strictly do you, personally, use both the wealth by level chart and the gp limit/ total asset tables for ad hoc modifiers on treasure rewards?

For example, if you roll a random treasure and get a powerful magic sword with a market price well above the 1/4 WBL equivalent for that level and cannot be sold or traded in any nearby towns due to the townsfolk not having the required capital to buy it from the PCs, how do you handle that? Do you reroll? Do you instead give them 2 or 3 lesser items as substitute? Do you say, eh whatever? Do you scale up the encounters to compensate? Something else? As a player, how would you feel if you knew the DM as "cheating" you out of an item like that?

Inversely, if you consistently roll low or no treasure randomly and the characters suffer from lack of level-equivalent loot, how do you handle that? Are the economies of nearby settlements a consideration?

Thirdly, say your PCs have aquired a substantial amount of currency, but nearby towns normally couldn't support any powerful/expensive magical items to equip the players due to the GP limit. How do you handle that?

As another consideration, my players sometimes don't like to follow the law in town if they know they don't really have to. With players like this in mind, how much mechanics detail do you put into the authorities or other significant power sources for a town? For individuals that serve as power groups in and of themselves (like say a mid-high level mage that lives in a small town), do you use NPC WBL or do you adhere to GP limits/total town assets rules?

Finally, as a long, painful fun little excercise for you mathophiles out there:

If you randomly generate a village with a population of 500 using the guidelines on Pg 138 of the DMG, how would your total NPC Gear Value (pg 127) compare with the total assets of the town (formula on page 137)?

Another_Poet
2010-06-17, 02:55 PM
How often/strictly do you, personally, use both the wealth by level chart

I adhere to it with an occasional +/-15% curve which never lasts more than a level.


and the gp limit/ total asset tables for ad hoc modifiers on treasure rewards?

If you mean one of the other tables in the DMG, never. If you mean the line in a Monster entry that says "double standard" or "triple coins" or the like, I take that into consideration whenever generating treasure.


For example, if you roll a random treasure and get a powerful magic sword with a market price well above the 1/4 WBL equivalent for that level and cannot be sold or traded in any nearby towns due to the townsfolk not having the required capital to buy it from the PCs, how do you handle that?

Not a problem, if you are rolling all treasures randomly then this is fine. In other cases they will get 1d10 turnips, 46 silver pieces and a magazine full of dirty centaur pictures ("art object" is never strictly defined :smallamused: ) so it is only fair to obey the chart when it favours them, too.


Do you reroll?

No, if you are rolling treasure randomly, then don't reroll the good stuff or expensive stuff. Not unless you're rerolling the bad stuff too, and maybe not even then, because at a certain point if you are rerolling so much you ought to just admit you don't use the table at all :smallwink:

I tend to craft very specific and thematic treasure drops based on what the creature(s) would actually have. If they wouldn't have anything then they don't, but there is likely a hidden trove nearby for the clever to find, packed full of stuff with its own history and story. The goods my PCs find seldom seem random, even if a roll on a table did help inspire them, because they all have a history. It's more work for me but it's fun.


Do you instead give them 2 or 3 lesser items as substitute?

I would have those 2 or 3 items waiting at the next store so I can tempt them with barter.


Do you scale up the encounters to compensate?

WBL problems are generally self-correcting, so no. By WBL problems I mean the kind of fairly minor problems you get when using the random tables. Sure a PC might get an overpowered item but it's not going to be that bad. I mean they're not going to get a +5 sword at Level 2 no matter how lucky the roll on the chart is. So no I just let them enjoy their new power and know that within a level or so it is going to be back at normal level, either because of the more difficult quests they take on or because the next random treasure roll could go horriblyy for them.


As a player, how would you feel if you knew the DM as "cheating" you out of an item like that?

TBH treasure generation policy is the kind of thing you might not want to discuss with your players. It's kind of like a boss talking about how they decide who to give raises too: theoretically everyone could give valuable feedback, and the openness would be refreshing. But in practice it just leads to arguments and hard feelings.

Here are the things about loot you should tell your players: if it is going to be a low-resource campaign because of low loot distribution; if it is going to be a low-resource campaign because of limited places to spend money/buy loot; if magic items won't be available for purchase, and have to be found instead; if there are typical items that you will restrict (i.e. no wands, or healing potions cost double); and if it will be a high-resource/high-wealth campaign. If none of the above descriptors applies to your campaign, then you have nothing to disclose to your players about loot, because your game will give a fairly average amount of loot according to WBL tables and that loot can be traded or spent in acquiring the normal things that PCs want to have.

Minor details like "I rolled a +4 sword but I decided to give you two +2 axes and a quiver of Ehlonna instead" should stay behind the screen, if employed at all.


Inversely, if you consistently roll low or no treasure randomly and the characters suffer from lack of level-equivalent loot, how do you handle that?

In a very low-resource campaign I encountered this. The players finally found treasure, and I rolled it for something like a Qaal's Token and some Dust of Dryness. Eeek. I showed "mercy" and gave them a necklace of fireballs, thinking I was being generous. I forgot that two rooms later was the huge fire-breathing dragon statue trap. Sorcerer failed his Ref save and detonated all fireballs on himself dying instantly.

That kind of stuff is unlikely to happen of course but I'm just pointing out that even the most benign instances of a DM saying "screw the rules" can be hard on the players. If your policy is to roll it randomly then roll it randomly even when it's scarce/scanty. Then you won't have to worry about those occasional +4 weapons you hand out too early.


Are the economies of nearby settlements a consideration?

I don't know why they would be from a WBL point of view. From a thematic point of view, sure. If the area is overrun with crusading dwarves then maybe they find a rack of urgroshes. If kobolds, maybe the art object is a ritual statue of a dragon. But the value is the same.

If nearby settlements are poor but the random treasure is valuable, just come up with a story. It was brought here by bandits who came to this hinterland to hide out, and then the monster you just killed got the bandits. It is hidden in an underground vault from the time of the ancient kingdom that used to rule this area, which was once very wealthy. Whatever. That's if your PCs even need explanation for treasure, which they probably don't :smallsmile:


Thirdly, say your PCs have aquired a substantial amount of currency, but nearby towns normally couldn't support any powerful/expensive magical items to equip the players due to the GP limit. How do you handle that?

>>>>>>>>I have never, ever used the "max wealth per town" table even once. In general I make it possible for the PCs to buy or sell what they wish. If that seems unbelievable I may instead offer barter, typically by offering things I already know the PCs want or asking for a wishlist from the PCs. If it seems really, really unbelievable (selling a +4 sword in a viillage of 110 farmers) I just say no one there has the money for it, or the interest, or even offer them ridiculous barter ("I know it aint' much mister but I'll give you this here goat for that sword if'n you're looking to sell") which of course they won't take. I don't base it on a chart in the DMG though, I just wing if and try to favour the PCs.


As another consideration, my players sometimes don't like to follow the law in town if they know they don't really have to. With players like this in mind, how much mechanics detail do you put into the authorities or other significant power sources for a town?

If it is a campaign-hurting problem then I would just talk OOC and tell the players you want to run a heroic campaign, not a bunch of criminals. If it is tolerable to you then I would use realistic authorities, which means that small towns maybe can't stop the PCs but they report back to higher up authorities (local lords) who dispatch high-level paladins or assassins to kill the PCs.


For individuals that serve as power groups in and of themselves (like say a mid-high level mage that lives in a small town), do you use NPC WBL or do you adhere to GP limits/total town assets rules?

Full wealth equal to a PC, or equivalent abilities. I feel that reduced NPC wealth is kind of a crock and results in weak, unimpressive enemies. A team of 4 NPCs with class levels is a force to be reckoned with in my case.

If you're worried about loot inflation, just give equivalent abilities. For instance instead of giving the NPC barbarian gauntlets of Ogre Str +4, just raise his Str score by 4 and deduct the cost of the item from the wealth available for his other gear. This way you can have useful NPCs without handing a bonanza to the PCs.


Finally, as a long, painful fun little excercise for you mathophiles out there:

If you randomly generate a village with a population of 500 using the guidelines on Pg 138 of the DMG, how would your total NPC Gear Value (pg 127) compare with the total assets of the town (formula on page 137)?

I wouldn't. I would say "This village has a volunteer militia is 20 2nd level warriors which can be mustered in just 1d4 hours. They all use mundane gear. There is a constable who is a Ftr4/Rog1 with a +1 sword and a mount. The local lord can send men-at-arms withing 1 day who are whatever level I want with whatever gear I choose, based on what will make a good plot."

No math :)

Endarire
2010-06-17, 05:41 PM
I give foes logical treasure. I prefer using foes who don't rely on gear, instead having quest givers reward PCs with WBLish cash.

Runestar
2010-06-17, 09:18 PM
I rarely rely wholly on randomly rolled treasure. What I do is I first roll, then decide how appropriate the treasure generated is, revising it if need be. My rationale is that if I decide what goes into each hoard, they will all end up looking the same. So rolling gives me sufficient variety, and ensures the PCs have ample magic gear but aren't really cash rich.

MIC is also great in this aspect, in that it has a wealth of useful, yet reasonably cheap magic gear which can be used to outfit your foes. The PCs can then loot these gear after defeating them.

Harperfan7
2010-06-17, 09:56 PM
I NEVER alter what the dice roll. I wish more DMs wouldn't.
I'm a killer DM, but if you play in my adventures and win/stay alive, you ought to have a real sense of accomplishment.
As for town authorities, I use WBL, and if they have more, their CR is higher (I use fractional CR's sometimes, so it might just be 6 1/5 instead of just 6). For towns/areas with especially competent authorities or help from powerful locals (like the mages guild), I still use WBL, and again they probably just have a higher CR or higher level than the pcs.