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Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 04:29 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most pathetic monster? (no homebrew)

Here is my idea:
1st level kobold commoner: Anything weaker than this probably won't be an actual moster. Housecats are an excellent defense.

Edit: Anything that has no means of attacking does not qualify as a monster. Pathetic, not harmless.
Edit: No homebrew. Otherwise, anything goes, including templates.

Marriclay
2010-06-17, 04:31 PM
Are we going by ECL versus CR, or by stats themselves? in the former your asking what's the easiest thing to take down at a given level, while the latter is asking what's the wimpiest period

Pink
2010-06-17, 04:32 PM
You don't get much weaker than a toad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/toad.htm)

Edit: and now I have the stranger urge to use a swarm of them somewhere in my games.

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 04:33 PM
Are we going by ECL versus CR, or by stats themselves? in the former your asking what's the easiest thing to take down at a given level, while the latter is asking what's the wimpiest period

Stats. CR stops working at 1/4 or so, mainly because anything deserving a CR lower than that is probably not worth any XP anyways.

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 04:34 PM
You don't get much weaker than a toad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/toad.htm)

Well, they have a decent AC for their CR. Level .1 characters might not hit that very often...:smalltongue:

Eloi
2010-06-17, 04:36 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most pathetic monster? (no homebrew)

Here is my idea:
1st level kobold commoner: Anything weaker than this probably won't be an actual moster. Housecats are an excellent defense.

Anything that has no means of attacking does not qualify as a monster. Pathetic, not harmless.

Beware the Kobold. Beware the POWER OF PUN-PUN.

Pink
2010-06-17, 04:38 PM
Well, they have a decent AC for their CR. Level .1 characters might not hit that very often...:smalltongue:

Defense means nothing when your total offense consists of...nothing.

Kobold commoner is actually proficient with a weapon and such.

Edit: Also, I think there might have been an edit to the Op since I've posted. I therefore hypothosize that the toad could in thoery attack...by jumping down the throat of a PC and Choking them!

Marriclay
2010-06-17, 04:40 PM
are we allowed to put templates or permanent spells on these pathetic monsters?

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 04:40 PM
Beware the Kobold. Beware the POWER OF PUN-PUN.

Pun-Pun is about as far from a 1st level commoner you can get. Besides, pun-pun would have worked perfectly well with a nonkobold.

Yes, kobolds can be dangerous...with the right class levels. A 1st level commoner does not have the right class level.

Dracons
2010-06-17, 04:41 PM
I just find it funny that Toad's are wiser then the average human.


Or Elf.

Or Dwarf.


Really any core race, the average toad is much more wiser.

Dracons
2010-06-17, 04:42 PM
Pun-Pun is about as far from a 1st level commoner you can get. Besides, pun-pun would have worked perfectly well with a nonkobold.

Yes, kobolds can be dangerous...with the right class levels. A 1st level commoner does not have the right class level.

Ahh, but pun-pun can be made by a first level commoner now...

Greenish
2010-06-17, 04:43 PM
Kobold commoner is actually proficient with a weapon and such.Kobold commoners have three natural attacks, natural armour and two martial weapon proficiencies.

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 04:43 PM
Ahh, but pun-pun can be made by a first level commoner now...

I stand corrected. The most pathetic monster in dnd is a:
Nonoptimized 1st level kobold commoner

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 04:44 PM
The Tarrasque.

Patheticness is all relative. By CR20 standards, this thing is is a block of poisoned cheese in a box.

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 04:46 PM
Kobold commoners have three natural attacks, natural armour and two martial weapon proficiencies.

Since when do 3.5 kobolds have natural attacks?
A commoner is proficent with one simple weapon. For a kobold, this is probably a light crossbow or a spear.

Draz74
2010-06-17, 04:47 PM
Since when do 3.5 kobolds have natural attacks?
A commoner is proficent with one simple weapon. For a kobold, this is probably a light crossbow or a spear.

Since this web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

Pink
2010-06-17, 04:48 PM
Kobold commoners have three natural attacks, natural armour and two martial weapon proficiencies.

Ummm...no they don't...You should read the SRD before you post such things. kobold commoner proficient with 1 simple weapon.

I am of course assuming that the OP meant the SRD kobold instead of the improved races of dragon kobold.

PId6
2010-06-17, 04:51 PM
I nominate the Terrasque.

Edit: Damn kobold ninjas. :smallfurious:

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 04:52 PM
Since this web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

I did mean the original kobold when I posted, having never read that article.
Even so, a small creature with 0 bab and -4 to strength will be pathetic with melee attacks. Sure, it has 3 attacks using that material, but it would attack at -1/-1/-6, and do 1d3-2 points of damage. Still pathetic.

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 04:56 PM
I did mean the original kobold when I posted, having never read that article.
Even so, a small creature with 0 bab and -4 to strength will be pathetic with melee attacks. Sure, it has 3 attacks using that material, but it would attack at -1/-1/-6, and do 1d3-2 points of damage. Still pathetic.

Weapon Finesse. If they put their 13 into Dex, they have a total of +3 to hit with light weapons.

Pink
2010-06-17, 04:57 PM
I did mean the original kobold when I posted, having never read that article.
Even so, a small creature with 0 bab and -4 to strength will be pathetic with melee attacks. Sure, it has 3 attacks using that material, but it would attack at -1/-1/-6, and do 1d3-2 points of damage. Still pathetic.

Yes, but potentially not quite as pathetic as say, a grey elf commoner. Grey elf will have a lower AC and only 1 attack. Potentially a lower attack as well if we're assuming the weapon of choice is a crossbow.

Edit: Personman: look at the prerequisites on weapon finesse. It's hard to forget but it's there.

Greenish
2010-06-17, 04:57 PM
Weapon Finesse. If they put their 13 into Dex, they have a total of +3 to hit with light weapons.Can't take it at first level with commoner.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 05:00 PM
I nominate the Terrasque.

Edit: Damn kobold ninjas. :smallfurious:

The Kobold-Ninja LIVES!!! :cool:

Greenish
2010-06-17, 05:02 PM
Ummm...no they don't...You should read the SRD before you post such things.Why should I?

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 05:03 PM
Yes, but potentially not quite as pathetic as say, a grey elf commoner. Grey elf will have a lower AC and only 1 attack. Potentially a lower attack as well if we're assuming the weapon of choice is a crossbow.

Edit: Personman: look at the prerequisites on weapon finesse. It's hard to forget but it's there.

The Gray Elf's adjustments to physical abilities are -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con. A kobold has -4 str, +2 dex, -2 con. The gray elf would have a lower attack roll due to size, but would deal more damage.

Draken
2010-06-17, 05:04 PM
The CR 20 Megapede is pretty lame.

Well, if you find one in a tunnel or similarly underground, it can be absurdly bloody dangerous, but if you meet one in the open it is about as dangerous as a toad. No ranged attacks, no flight, no particularly relevant defenses. Piss-poor Touch AC.

Most brutal poison in the game outside of Devastation Vermin, however.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-17, 05:08 PM
A sickened, shaken, exhausted, entangled, venerable kobold commoner in Mountain Plate, throwing a spiked chain at a target 100 ft. away, with several active Bestow Curse spells cast upon it (and no proficiency feats for the armor or weapon, of course).

Pink
2010-06-17, 05:09 PM
The Gray Elf's adjustments to physical abilities are -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con. A kobold has -4 str, +2 dex, -2 con. The gray elf would have a lower attack roll due to size, but would deal more damage.

Str is irrelevent if you're using a crossbow, no need to mention it. As far as damage is concerned, the drop from a d8 to a d6 to be able to better hit the target is pretty good. Kobold also gets a +2 ac over on the grey elf.

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 05:12 PM
A sickened, shaken, exhausted, entangled, venerable kobold commoner in Mountain Plate, throwing a spiked chain at a target 100 ft. away, with several active Bestow Curse spells cast upon it (and no proficiency feats for the armor or weapon, of course).

Of course.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 05:13 PM
A sickened, shaken, exhausted, entangled, venerable kobold commoner in Mountain Plate, throwing a spiked chain at a target 100 ft. away, with several active Bestow Curse spells cast upon it (and no proficiency feats for the armor or weapon, of course).

Not at all contrived, I'd use this in my games :smallwink:

Grumman
2010-06-17, 05:15 PM
The Ocean Strider from Monster Manual II. It's a huge aquatic Fey which has a hard time using its special attack to sink a rowboat, and would be better off with 15 Barbarian HD than its 30 Fey HD.

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 05:16 PM
Not at all contrived, I'd use this in my games :smallwink:

So, how much XP would the players get for beating that? I'd suggest 0.000000000000000000000001 XP.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-17, 05:17 PM
A sickened, shaken, exhausted, entangled, venerable kobold commoner in Mountain Plate, throwing a spiked chain at a target 100 ft. away, with several active Bestow Curse spells cast upon it (and no proficiency feats for the armor or weapon, of course).

Hmm... might not be able to stack Bestow Curse... in that case, it's Feebleminded, Confused, repeatedly poisoned, unable to fulfill a Geas/Quest, and a Hexblade cursed it as well.

Edit: Feat choice: Sacred Vow, which it immediately violated by killing a puppy for no reason, thus losing the benefit of the feat.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 05:18 PM
Hmm... might not be able to stack Bestow Curse... in that case, it's Feebleminded, Confused, repeatedly poisoned, unable to fulfill a Geas/Quest, and a Hexblade cursed it as well.

That's much better.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-17, 05:22 PM
Ooh, we could also give this kobold, who I've named 'granpappy,' two flaws, which he took for bonus Exalted feats. He of course immediately violated whatever sacred vows he took (let's say Poverty, which he lost for owning the mountain plate and spiked chain, and Chastity, the losing of which is up to the imagination). The Flaws he took are something good like Pathetic, Noncombatant, or what have you.

Ilmryn
2010-06-17, 05:32 PM
Ooh, we could also give this kobold, who I've named 'granpappy,' two flaws, which he took for bonus Exalted feats. He of course immediately violated whatever sacred vows he took (let's say Poverty, which he lost for owning the mountain plate and spiked chain, and Chastity, the losing of which is up to the imagination). The Flaws he took are something good like Pathetic, Noncombatant, or what have you.

Will he even have a CR above 1/infinite by the time you are done?
Well, I did ask for pathetic monsters. Now, instead of piling on penalties, is it possible to have a maximal nonoptimization? Something completely rididculous? Sort of like pun-pun, but in reverse?

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 05:35 PM
Will he even have a CR above 1/infinite by the time you are done?
Well, I did ask for pathetic monsters. Now, instead of piling on penalties, is it possible to have a maximal nonoptimization? Something completely rididculous? Sort of like pun-pun, but in reverse?

That's what is being done here.

Athaniar
2010-06-17, 05:35 PM
No, the best feat for this kobold would be any of the four kobold feats from Dragon #342.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 05:36 PM
Will he even have a CR above 1/infinite by the time you are done?
Well, I did ask for pathetic monsters. Now, instead of piling on penalties, is it possible to have a maximal nonoptimization? Something completely rididculous? Sort of like pun-pun, but in reverse?

The Tarasque.

Pun-Pun is a Kobold and so should be crap, but is amazing.
The Tarrasque should be amazing, but is really just a bit rubbish.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-17, 05:38 PM
Will he even have a CR above 1/infinite by the time you are done?
Well, I did ask for pathetic monsters. Now, instead of piling on penalties, is it possible to have a maximal nonoptimization? Something completely rididculous? Sort of like pun-pun, but in reverse?

Well, there are many ways you could do this.

A 1st level awakened skeleton Evil Incarnate, with no CON score and without that feat that allows undead to shape soulmelds... he can... Detect Good?

A 1st level orc wizard with a 6 INT score...

A 1st level fallen paladin jermlaine...

PId6
2010-06-17, 05:39 PM
Will he even have a CR above 1/infinite by the time you are done?
Well, I did ask for pathetic monsters. Now, instead of piling on penalties, is it possible to have a maximal nonoptimization? Something completely rididculous? Sort of like pun-pun, but in reverse?
There was a "weakest character ever" thread a while ago on the CO forums that I can't find anymore. The winner was I believe one called Nup Nup, which was some kind of wizard/psion 20 with not enough Int to cast spells/manifest powers, lots of skill points in Craft (Basketweaving), and exactly 0 HP, so that he would start dying if he performed any action.

Pink
2010-06-17, 05:42 PM
Wow...that's bloody impressive to actually have 0 HP. How is that accomplished? Don't you need to get at least 1 HP a level?

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 05:43 PM
Wow...that's bloody impressive to actually have 0 HP. How is that accomplished? Don't you need to get at least 1 HP a level?

Quick Trait takes 1 HP every level, including first.

PId6
2010-06-17, 05:43 PM
Wow...that's bloody impressive to actually have 0 HP. How is that accomplished? Don't you need to get at least 1 HP a level?
Frail flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#frail) allows you to get 0 HP per level.

Pink
2010-06-17, 05:48 PM
Ah yes, so bleeding obvious.

The funny thing is this Nup Nup would completely incapacitate one of the player's in my game who has a chronic fear of...baskets.

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 05:49 PM
Ah yes, so bleeding obvious.

The funny thing is this Nup Nup would completely incapacitate one of the player's in my game who has a chronic fear of...baskets.

Nope.

Nup Nup can't make baskets. Doing so would put him into negatives.

Pink
2010-06-17, 05:55 PM
He could threaten to make them though. Major bonus on an intimidate check.

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 05:57 PM
He could threaten to make them though. Major bonus on an intimidate check.

This would help how?

"You...you make baskets, huh? Well, you can't make baskets if you're DEAD!" -slash! slash! slash!-

Flickerdart
2010-06-17, 05:59 PM
He could threaten to make them though. Major bonus on an intimidate check.
Still a standard action, which would kill him.

Temotei
2010-06-17, 06:01 PM
Nope.

Nup Nup can't make baskets. Doing so would put him into negatives.

"Lalala...weaving...agh!"
"...is he dead?"
"Nah, just bleeding internally."

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-17, 06:01 PM
If he doesn't have enough Int to cast all those Wizard spells his Craft checks can't be brilliant even if he can survive long enough to make one.

\/--1d3-4? Seriously? WTF? Does it heal you when it scratches you? :smallconfused:

--Lime--
2010-06-17, 06:02 PM
I'd actually rank the rat lower than the toad.

Sure, it moves at 15 feet, not 5, but its AC is 1 lower, and its attack is also totally useless (1d3-4). The only thing it's good at is running away or not going noticed, and even if it runs it can be outrun by most PC races. If it isn't noticed, then it doesn't even count for combat.

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 06:03 PM
I'd actually rank the rat lower than the toad.

Sure, it moves at 15 feet, not 5, but its AC is 1 lower, and its attack is also totally useless (1d3-4). The only thing it's good at is running away or not going noticed, and even if it runs it can be outrun by most PC races. If it isn't noticed, then it doesn't even count for combat.

It can possibly do damage. Every attack does at least 1 damage. The toad can't do any damage at all.

Pink
2010-06-17, 06:05 PM
Still a standard action, which would kill him.

Ummm, only in combat. Otherwise it's a minute of interaction. And since talking is a free action, is all good

Also, for that matter, crafting isn't specifically a standard action (and dying specifies standard actions), so it's up to DM discretion.

Lime: ...something with an attack...is more useless than something without an attack?

Greenish
2010-06-17, 06:07 PM
\/--1d3-4? Seriously? WTF? Does it heal you when it scratches you? :smallconfused:Nah, it just deals minimum damage (1). The minimum damage is the reason house cats are so lethal: their attacks are only 1d2-4 (claws) and 1d3-4 (bite).

onthetown
2010-06-17, 06:11 PM
I would say a cockatrice, but those things have managed to kill me a couple of times at lower levels... It just looks so pathetic, though.

Ingus
2010-06-17, 06:26 PM
You can go with these with no fail.
http://www.jimmyr.com/blog/Bunny_Suicide_Comic_Pics_226_2007.php

Or else...

Take a kobold paladin level 1, with ranks in Knowledge (the planes), Skill Focus in the same, just a couple of other ways to pump it, two ridiculusly harsh flaws and...
Now it is trivial to know Pazuzu. Call him. Get a candle of invocation. Then call him again for good measure, for a second candle of invocation (not for free gift, maybe alignment switch too, but hey, this is theorical unoptimization :smallbiggrin:).
Now you can use a candle of invocation to call a Noble Djinni and ask him three wishes. These are "Use bestrow curse, greater on me, to give me Strenght, Dexterity and Constitution scores of 1".
Repeat for Int, Wis and Char, yust be sure tu hit Int last, so you can continue talk and so wish.

Note: Bestrow curse, Greater, works with wish because it is also a level 6 spell for bards.

And now beat me :D

Morph Bark
2010-06-17, 06:31 PM
Bats and toads both have 1/10 CR and no attacks at all. How about a fusion of them?

Runestar
2010-06-17, 06:34 PM
Even the humble toad or housecat can be easily optimized. Give them 2 flaws, and have them take shape soulmeld, for a 2d6 acid ranged touch attack and limited flight capabilities. How's that for a cr1/4 monster? :smallcool:

Morph Bark
2010-06-17, 06:35 PM
Even the humble toad or housecat can be easily optimized. Give them 2 flaws, and have them take shape soulmeld, for a 2d6 acid ranged touch attack and limited flight capabilities. How's that for a cr1/4 monster? :smallcool:

With such things, any creature suddenly becomes capable if it wasn't already. :smalltongue:

Douglas
2010-06-17, 06:39 PM
There was a "weakest character ever" thread a while ago on the CO forums that I can't find anymore. The winner was I believe one called Nup Nup, which was some kind of wizard/psion 20 with not enough Int to cast spells/manifest powers, lots of skill points in Craft (Basketweaving), and exactly 0 HP, so that he would start dying if he performed any action.
Wait, I thought Nup-Nup was the psion who turned himself into a nonmagical sandwich by having someone Polymorph Any Object the sandwich into a creature, Mind Switching with the creature, and allowing the PAO to expire. Or is that some other anti-optimization champion?

Lord Loss
2010-06-17, 06:42 PM
Whatever Happened to PHLUMPS ???

Runestar
2010-06-17, 06:45 PM
With such things, any creature suddenly becomes capable if it wasn't already. :smalltongue:

You catch on quick. :smallbiggrin:

PersonMan
2010-06-17, 06:46 PM
Whatever Happened to PHLUMPS ???

Player's
Handbook
Luminosity
Undermining
Monk
Player
Seating
?!

Greenish
2010-06-17, 06:47 PM
Even the humble toad or housecat can be easily optimized. Give them 2 flaws, and have them take shape soulmeld, for a 2d6 acid ranged touch attack and limited flight capabilities. How's that for a cr1/4 monster? :smallcool:Housecats are pretty optimized as is. They just need a few Sneak Attack dice.

Temotei
2010-06-17, 06:48 PM
Housecats are pretty optimized as is. They just need a few Sneak Attack dice.

Didn't Bhu have a huge thread on stuff for cats? I think there was a feline assassin class or something in there.

--Lime--
2010-06-17, 06:49 PM
Yeah, I forgot about minimum one damage rule. Ignore what I said.

DSCrankshaw
2010-06-17, 06:55 PM
Y'know, I'm not sure this is really a fair way to do it. If you're allowed to build the character however you like, it almost doesn't matter what the base monster is.

Maybe a better question would be what base monster, as written up in the MM, is woefully underpowered compared to his CR?

PId6
2010-06-17, 06:57 PM
Maybe a better question would be what base monster, as written up in the MM, is woefully underpowered compared to his CR?
Once again, I nominate the Terrasque.

Ogre Mage deserves an honorable mention.

Morph Bark
2010-06-17, 07:02 PM
How is basketweaving an "overpowered" skill anyway? I never quite got that part and never saw it explained anywhere. :smallconfused:

PId6
2010-06-17, 07:04 PM
How is basketweaving an "overpowered" skill anyway? I never quite got that part and never saw it explained anywhere. :smallconfused:
Because it's strictly better than Underwater Basketweaving, and we all know how overpowered that is.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-17, 07:05 PM
Because it's strictly better than Underwater Basketweaving, and we all know how overpowered that is.

It is a Prerequisite for a Bard Prestige class.

--Lime--
2010-06-17, 07:07 PM
I need to model a toddler so that we can finally answer that: "How many toddlers do you think you could defeat before they defeated you?"

Though I generally find this works better if the kids are 5 or 6, and come at you all at once, rather than one at a time. In *theory*!

Runestar
2010-06-17, 07:09 PM
Y'know, I'm not sure this is really a fair way to do it. If you're allowed to build the character however you like, it almost doesn't matter what the base monster is.

Maybe a better question would be what base monster, as written up in the MM, is woefully underpowered compared to his CR?

MM2 probably takes the cake, it has the many under-cr'ed and over-cr'ed monsters. Mountain giant at cr28? I think cr14-16 may be more likely.

They errata'ed the klurichir's cr from 25 to 17 (fiend folio). I am fairly sure the liinorms are too weak for their cr as well.

But this possibly takes the cake.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a

How the heck is the latter a cr45? I think there are great wyrms tougher than it!

Critical
2010-06-17, 07:15 PM
A commoner with a corpse flaw from Dragon Mag.

You're dead, but you have a bonus feat!

:smalltongue:

PId6
2010-06-17, 07:17 PM
Wait, I thought Nup-Nup was the psion who turned himself into a nonmagical sandwich by having someone Polymorph Any Object the sandwich into a creature, Mind Switching with the creature, and allowing the PAO to expire. Or is that some other anti-optimization champion?
I don't remember the sandwich psion being called Nup Nup, but if it was called that, it was definitely completely different.


A commoner with a corpse flaw from Dragon Mag.

You're dead, but you have a bonus feat!
Totally worth it. Who cares about being affected by magical healing anyway? :smalltongue:

Starscream
2010-06-17, 07:28 PM
Housecats are pretty optimized as is. They just need a few Sneak Attack dice.

Which just goes to show that the writers didn't own any cats. All cats have sneak attack. The commoners are doomed.

As for most pathetic monster, I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and say Vampire. They get a lot of impressive powers, sure, but also the most crippling weakness ever. I'm talking about the holy symbol thing.

To keep a vampire at bay, you just need to present a holy symbol as a standard action. That's all. You don't need to be able to turn undead. You don't need to make a roll. The vampire doesn't get a save. You don't even have to believe in the god in question. Just need to ability to make standard actions. A 1st level commoner could do it to Strahd von Zarovich.

Okay, so let's be serious, and admit that the vampire could charm the person or fly away as a bat or something. Fine. But it's still an absolutely crippling weakness, which any clever player could find ways to abuse. Say you have a few skeletons or golems or whatnot armed with holy symbols. Just have them surround the thing and order them to keep showing the holy symbol. They'll do it forever, not be charmed, you could suspend one from the ceiling to keep the vamp from flying away, and he's trapped forever.

Then you set up a booth where people who were traumatized by the Twilight novels pay 1gp for three cloves of garlic. If they land one in the vampire's mouth they get a t-shirt.

--Lime--
2010-06-17, 07:30 PM
Last sentence wins the thread for me

Flickerdart
2010-06-17, 07:31 PM
The Vampire could summon a bunch of wolves, or if he's a Vampire Lord (as I'm pretty sure Strahd is) that doesn't affect him one bit.

Starscream
2010-06-17, 07:35 PM
The Vampire could summon a bunch of wolves, or if he's a Vampire Lord (as I'm pretty sure Strahd is) that doesn't affect him one bit.

Fair enough, though 3d6 wolves aren't going to scare anyone who has multiple golems and uses them to create fairground attractions.

How about vampire spawn in that case? All the weaknesses, no summoning.

Rappy
2010-06-17, 08:02 PM
Whatever Happened to PHLUMPS ???
If you meant flumphs, their acid damage and barbed tentacles are actually fairly decent for their size, so I imagine it's void from the low-CR contest.

Lord Loss
2010-06-17, 08:05 PM
If you meant flumphs, their acid damage and barbed tentacles are actually fairly decent for their size, so I imagine it's void from the low-CR contest.

Aye XD. And I'm reffering to the first version ever, which essentially just kinda sat there.

Talon Sky
2010-06-17, 08:44 PM
So, how much XP would the players get for beating that? I'd suggest 0.000000000000000000000001 XP.

It gives -100 exp

Zaq
2010-06-17, 08:46 PM
The Tarrasque.

Patheticness is all relative. By CR20 standards, this thing is is a block of poisoned cheese in a box.

I see your Tarrasque and raise you a level 20 Monk, which is also nominally a CR 20 challenge.

Flickerdart
2010-06-17, 08:46 PM
It gives -100 exp
Now I'm imagining a creature with a terrifying power - it can bond to any arcane spellcaster as their familiar, against the arcanist's will. If they kill it, BAM! Horrible XP loss.

The mage
2010-06-17, 08:50 PM
Hmm, the most pathetic dnd monster there ever could be is a fly with a fullblade, 1d8 damage, hehehe(-5 str:smallfrown:)

Pink
2010-06-17, 09:24 PM
I see your Tarrasque and raise you a level 20 Monk, which is also nominally a CR 20 challenge.

Actually, it wouldn't be CR 20 by itself.


Associated Class Levels

Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ― per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.


As you can see, Monk is never mentioned as an associated class level, therefore it must be a nonassociated class level, meaning you'd need a level 40 monk to be a CR20 challenge.

:smallbiggrin:

--Lime--
2010-06-17, 09:28 PM
Unless you found a lawful creature that liked using its fists.

Savannah
2010-06-17, 09:29 PM
Wouldn't the most pathetic monster (without modifications) be the shrieker? It's a fungus that screams when anyone gets near it. Nothing else. It can't move and can't attack. Which is all well and good, except that it's CR 1. Meaning you get XP for chopping up something that can't fight back or escape in any way. :smallconfused:

Flickerdart
2010-06-17, 09:30 PM
Actually, it wouldn't be CR 20 by itself.




As you can see, Monk is never mentioned as an associated class level, therefore it must be a nonassociated class level, meaning you'd need a level 40 monk to be a CR20 challenge.

:smallbiggrin:
No, if the creature has 1 HD, then the HD is subsumed into the Monk level, and thereafter Monk levels count for 1 CR (because there's more than 0 of them).

--Lime--
2010-06-17, 09:32 PM
Wouldn't the most pathetic monster (without modifications) be the shrieker? It's a fungus that screams when anyone gets near it. Nothing else. It can't move and can't attack. Which is all well and good, except that it's CR 1. Meaning you get XP for chopping up something that can't fight back or escape in any way. :smallconfused:

I think we might have struck gold here!

Pink
2010-06-17, 09:32 PM
Yeah, I failed pretty hard there. Need to remember to walk up from nap before posting on forums. I's a gunna go get some caffeine before I embarress myself any further.

Morph Bark
2010-06-18, 01:53 AM
Actually, it wouldn't be CR 20 by itself.




As you can see, Monk is never mentioned as an associated class level, therefore it must be a nonassociated class level, meaning you'd need a level 40 monk to be a CR20 challenge.

:smallbiggrin:

The funny thing is, it is the only core class not mentioned, as the explicitly mentioned ones are non-casting classes and casting classes are grouped together, which constitutes of bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer and wizard. So indeed, a level 40 Monk is only CR 20 by RAW... at least if it applies to a creature that has monster HD already. Level 40 Gnoll Monk anyone?

EDIT: Better yet, level 40 awakened shrieker monk. :smallbiggrin:

Volthawk
2010-06-18, 02:11 AM
I need to model a toddler so that we can finally answer that: "How many toddlers do you think you could defeat before they defeated you?"

Though I generally find this works better if the kids are 5 or 6, and come at you all at once, rather than one at a time. In *theory*!

Like this? (http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/)

Runestar
2010-06-18, 04:00 AM
Actually, it wouldn't be CR 20 by itself.

As you can see, Monk is never mentioned as an associated class level, therefore it must be a nonassociated class level, meaning you'd need a level 40 monk to be a CR20 challenge.

:smallbiggrin:

I suspect there is more truth to this statement than you think. :smallamused:

A lv40 monk is still weaker than a great wyrm red dragon at any rate.

Serpentine
2010-06-18, 05:12 AM
The Donkey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59158) is the most pathetic. It might not be the absolute worst - it doesn't have the lowest CR, for example. But... it can get beaten by a lizard. A rat could be tough.

Morph Bark
2010-06-18, 05:39 AM
The Donkey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59158) is the most pathetic. It might not be the absolute worst - it doesn't have the lowest CR, for example. But... it can get beaten by a lizard. A rat could be tough.

That is awesome. Shame it didn't grow out into a community project with tons of Donkey-related stuff just like Bhu's massive cat-related heap of things, other things and even more things.

Serpentine
2010-06-18, 05:50 AM
Heh, yeah, that would've been pretty awesome. But I guess for some reason donkeys just don't have the same appeal as kittycats :smallsigh: I mean, what's this guy got:

http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Surprised-SXSW-Audience-Homage-to-Surprised-Kitty-Internet-Meme.jpg

that this guy ain't?

http://www.omgcritters.com/posters/funny-jackass-donkey-grinning-ass-goofy-animal-picture.jpg

He's practically oozing charisma!

Ilmryn
2010-06-18, 02:03 PM
Hmm, the most pathetic dnd monster there ever could be is a fly with a fullblade, 1d8 damage, hehehe(-5 str:smallfrown:)

This dosen't work. According to the dnd weapon shrinking rules, a fine fullblade would deal 1d8, but a fly is mindless, so it gets no feats, and cant use a fullblade.

Ormagoden
2010-06-18, 02:55 PM
<snip>

Then you set up a booth where people who were traumatized by the Twilight novels pay 1gp for three cloves of garlic. If they land one in the vampire's mouth they get a t-shirt.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA BEST IDEA EVER!!!

Endarire
2010-06-18, 03:55 PM
Devastation Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) are just big bugs. They scare and kill commoners, but their touch AC is pathetic (only about 16!) and reverse gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reversegravity.htm) or flight will down 'em eventually.

Savannah
2010-06-18, 04:34 PM
The Donkey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59158) is the most pathetic. It might not be the absolute worst - it doesn't have the lowest CR, for example. But... it can get beaten by a lizard. A rat could be tough.

Just remember, you get more XP from chopping up an immobile, defenseless fungus than you do for killing a donkey, which can at least try to escape or fight back. I still maintain that the shrieker is the most pathetic monster.

Stevielash
2010-06-18, 06:33 PM
Just how many toads do you have to kill to level up one anyway?, I imagine vermin catcher commoners would level once or twice in their career.

Thajocoth
2010-06-18, 06:50 PM
I'm gonna say the Flumph. In 4e, knocking it prone makes it helpless, allowing you to coup de grace it. I assume it's stats in other systems are equally as bad.

Savannah
2010-06-18, 06:54 PM
Just how many toads do you have to kill to level up one anyway?, I imagine vermin catcher commoners would level once or twice in their career.

A toad is CR 1/10, so it's worth 30 XP for a first level character. A single 1st level character would need to kill 34 toads to level. A standard group of four 1st level characters would need to kill 136 toads to level.


I'm gonna say the Flumph. In 4e, knocking it prone makes it helpless, allowing you to coup de grace it. I assume it's stats in other systems are equally as bad.

Still better than the shrieker, if it can do things when it's not prone.

Pink
2010-06-18, 07:07 PM
But the shrieker's power is basically "Roll on the random encounter table"

You might get nothing, you might get the underwater tiger.

Savannah
2010-06-18, 07:14 PM
Only if the DM does so. By itself, it's worthless. (Mind you, I find it a good explanation for what is essentially a summoning trap, but trap triggers aren't worth separate XP.)

Myou
2010-06-18, 07:50 PM
It can possibly do damage. Every attack does at least 1 damage. The toad can't do any damage at all.

I think the toad can make non-proficient unarmed strikes for 1 damage at at time. (-9 to hit) Or it could TWF for 2 damage a turn.

It can also grapple you with it's -17 grapple modifier, and then beat you to death (-13 to hit). But only if you're Diminutive or smaller.

It can also gorge itself until it weighs 1 pound or more and then fall on you for 1 damage.

Or it can make a bull rush (-21 to the attempt) to push you off a cliff.

Or it can dip itself in poison and climb down your throat while you sleep. :smallbiggrin:



It is a Prerequisite for a Bard Prestige class.

Finally someone expalins where that meme came from. xD
What prc is it?

Dust
2010-06-18, 07:52 PM
I dominate the Yochlol. Not because it's a poor combatant, but because it fits the criteria of being incredibly pathetic. Lloth's 'most favored servant' is a disgusting, tentacled and shapeless handmaiden that gets sent to serve DROW PRIESTS at her command. Not only is being the servant that gets sent to serve under OTHER servants just about the lamest gig ever, it gets worse.

In combat, they transform into a HAWT FEMALE DROW to seduce their opponents. If this fails, they transform back down into it's normal form, violates them with tentacles in order to reduce future will saves, then changes form back to a girl and tries the seduction routine again.

Pretty much the definition of the most pathetic monster ever.

balistafreak
2010-06-18, 07:53 PM
A toad is CR 1/10, so it's worth 30 XP for a first level character. A single 1st level character would need to kill 34 toads to level. A standard group of four 1st level characters would need to kill 136 toads to level.

*gets his net and heads into the woods*

There's at least 34 toads in those woods. I can hear them.

Run, my precious nuggets of XP! The scales of your annoyance and my laziness have finally been disturbed!

/tangent

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-18, 07:56 PM
I dominate the Yochlol. Not because it's a poor combatant, but because it fits the criteria of being incredibly pathetic. Lloth's 'most favored servant' is a disgusting, tentacled and shapeless handmaiden that gets sent to serve DROW PRIESTS at her command. Not only is being the servant that gets sent to serve under OTHER servants just about the lamest gig ever, it gets worse.

In combat, they transform into a HAWT FEMALE DROW to seduce their opponents. If this fails, they transform back down into it's normal form, violates them with tentacles in order to reduce future will saves, then changes form back to a girl and tries the seduction routine again.

Pretty much the definition of the most pathetic monster ever.

It alternates between seduction and tentacle rape until you fail a Will Save?

This sounds less terrifying and more "HOLY CRAP!! fine just take the BBEG's damn sword back, I don't want it that much anyway".

Savannah
2010-06-18, 08:51 PM
*gets his net and heads into the woods*

There's at least 34 toads in those woods. I can hear them.

Run, my precious nuggets of XP! The scales of your annoyance and my laziness have finally been disturbed!

/tangent

Of course, that depends on whether CR 1/10 monsters "are eight Challenge Ratings lower than the character's level", in which case you won't get any XP at all. It's a bit hard to interpret with fractional CRs.

Flickerdart
2010-06-18, 11:01 PM
Of course, that depends on whether CR 1/10 monsters "are eight Challenge Ratings lower than the character's level", in which case you won't get any XP at all. It's a bit hard to interpret with fractional CRs.
A Human Commoner is CR 1/2. That goes down to 1/4, then 1/8, then 1/10, only 3 less.

Savannah
2010-06-18, 11:12 PM
Isn't there also CR 1/3 and 1/6? Or am I imagining things again? That still puts it at less than 8 steps below, though...Go balistafreak! Level up!

veovius
2010-06-19, 02:56 AM
I ran a module a few weeks ago, that had a harpy in it. She was used as a final boss, inside a small tower. All the monsters in the keep were dead, and a party of level 2's except for one character resisted her song. Her only weapon is a 1d4 club, and she can fly. Whup-dee doo. That was the saddest end boss ever.

Morph Bark
2010-06-19, 04:55 AM
But the shrieker's power is basically "Roll on the random encounter table"

You might get nothing, you might get the underwater tiger.

Alright, I'll change my idea.

An awakened shrieker, 40 levels in monk, caught in a silenced area.

PersonMan
2010-06-19, 04:58 AM
Alright, I'll change my idea.

An awakened shrieker, 40 levels in monk, caught in a silenced area.

No. Why? 1st level characters won't get any XP for it. We want it to be pathetic, but not too pathetic to be unusable. 16 levels of Monk in a Silenced area gives 1st level characters maximum XP, and can feed them more until they get to level 16, although it'll take a lot of them after a while.

2xMachina
2010-06-19, 05:14 AM
This dosen't work. According to the dnd weapon shrinking rules, a fine fullblade would deal 1d8, but a fly is mindless, so it gets no feats, and cant use a fullblade.

Do you need prof to wield it? Cause normally, you can be unprof and wield weapons. Just take a -to hit.

Also, all Kobolds should have a 1st lvl SLA. Power Word Pain anyone?

Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 05:33 PM
[QUOTE=2xMachina;8737053]Do you need prof to wield it? Cause normally, you can be unprof and wield weapons. Just take a -to hit.QUOTE]

The fullblade is a weapon from the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide. It is a sword so big you need a proficency to use it. Kind of like a bastard sword, only two-handed.
I once had a player play a fighter-type warlock variant, using monkey grip to use a large version of the fullblade. He dealt more damage with a melee attack than with he Eldritch Blast...

Morph Bark
2010-06-19, 06:24 PM
No. Why? 1st level characters won't get any XP for it. We want it to be pathetic, but not too pathetic to be unusable. 16 levels of Monk in a Silenced area gives 1st level characters maximum XP, and can feed them more until they get to level 16, although it'll take a lot of them after a while.

Since when is this our specific goal? For that matter, when did we all get that very same goal in this thread? I was under the assumption that this thread was simply for trying to come up with the most pathetic DnD monster, not "the DnD monster that gives commoners the least XP and also couldn't do jack to them". I simply focused on that latter part.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-06-19, 08:54 PM
The bogun. An ugly tiny (iirc) construct that has a 1/20th chance to blow off its own creator in favor of doing whatever it wants instead, but still costs ritual time and XP in order to create. It does have an average strength poison though.

balistafreak
2010-06-20, 04:52 PM
Isn't there also CR 1/3 and 1/6? Or am I imagining things again? That still puts it at less than 8 steps below, though...Go balistafreak! Level up!

So I grabbed my Quarterstaff (doesn't cost any gold, you see, which is not only hard to get in this day and age but something that as a Commoner I'd have very little of anyways) and went on my adventure.

However, it seemed that the toads had intelligence on me! Before I even made it to the woods, I was confronted with this:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_04/ToadInvasionWENN_850x616.jpg

They'd massed up in preparation for a full-scale retaliation!

A battle of epic proportions ensued. Their lack of offensive options led them to attempt to bull-rush me into traffic. However, between my +1 Strength modifier and their -21 to bull-rushes, they never succeeded.

I attempted both using the quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon and as two weapons. With only +1 to my attack rolls, it was either one attack that needed a 14 or two attacks that needed 18 and 20 - soon I was only using two-handed fighting, smashing a toad every eighteen seconds or so.

However, I soon realized that I would be there all day. The toads would wear me out. I fell back to the local tavern and used an untrained Diplomacy check to call in a few more 1st level adventurers with actual class levels, tempting them with the prospect of easy XP:

http://www.tartareandesire.com/interviews/images/ensiferum.jpg

Between their extra actions and AoE effects, we were able to force the horde of toads to go back from whence they came, their numbers severely depleted. The aftermath:

http://images.watoday.com.au/2010/01/11/1028530/Artilce-Toad-420x0.jpg


We looted the toad corpses, but either our search checks sucked or they weren't kidding when they said those of the animal subtype have no treasure.

However, one of the adventurers had ranks in Craft (leatherworking) and several days later presented us with these:

http://files3.tellmewhereonearth.com/Photos%20Weirdest/w227.JPG

http://files.tellmewhereonearth.com/Photos%20Weirdest/w215-2.JPG

So we didn't leave completely empty-handed from this affiar. Oh, and we're all 3rd level now, eight CR steps above 1/10. :smallcool:

Emmerask
2010-06-20, 05:04 PM
Wouldn't the most pathetic monster (without modifications) be the shrieker? It's a fungus that screams when anyone gets near it. Nothing else. It can't move and can't attack. Which is all well and good, except that it's CR 1. Meaning you get XP for chopping up something that can't fight back or escape in any way. :smallconfused:


Hm, if I remember correctly the shrieker fungus thingys are used by drow as an alarm system (first drizzt novel). I donīt have my books here so I donīt really know if they exist normally in nature too, but if itīs only used as an alarm system then the power would be to "summon" quite a few very angry drow which is not a bad ability :smallbiggrin:

Pink
2010-06-20, 05:58 PM
Everything

That...was epic....Way to go!

Coidzor
2010-06-20, 06:25 PM
Hm, if I remember correctly the shrieker fungus thingys are used by drow as an alarm system (first drizzt novel). I donīt have my books here so I donīt really know if they exist normally in nature too, but if itīs only used as an alarm system then the power would be to "summon" quite a few very angry drow which is not a bad ability :smallbiggrin:

They occur "naturally," too, sometimes in a symbiotic relationship with more mobile and aggressive fungi which leave the remains of the things that set off the shriekers so that the shriekers will continue to alert them of food sources. At least, they occur that way in one of the premade adventures releashed by WOTC that one of my buddies ran us through once.

Volos
2010-06-20, 06:28 PM
Flumph. CR 1 critter that looks like a jellyfish. If you flip it upside down, it can try to make a DC20 escape artist check once per day to flip right side up. Even so, it can't really hurt you or do anything more then smell bad.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-20, 06:33 PM
Flumph. CR 1 critter that looks like a jellyfish. If you flip it upside down, it can try to make a DC20 escape artist check once per day to flip right side up. Even so, it can't really hurt you or do anything more then smell bad.

Flumphs save millions of lives every day when Flying PCs are hit with a Dispel Magic etc.

They're the worlds little crashmats :smallbiggrin:

Savannah
2010-06-20, 07:54 PM
Awesomeness

That was hilarious!

Lix Lorn
2010-06-22, 10:16 AM
In combat, they transform into a HAWT FEMALE DROW to seduce their opponents. If this fails, they transform back down into it's normal form, violates them with tentacles in order to reduce future will saves, then changes form back to a girl and tries the seduction routine again.
Can I quote that?


winsome
Also, can I link to that?

balistafreak
2010-06-22, 11:29 AM
Also, can I link to that?

... umm... sure. I just threw it together in 15 minutes, thought it'd make a nice laugh. :smallredface:

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 12:10 PM
I dominate the Yochlol. Not because it's a poor combatant, but because it fits the criteria of being incredibly pathetic. Lloth's 'most favored servant' is a disgusting, tentacled and shapeless handmaiden that gets sent to serve DROW PRIESTS at her command. Not only is being the servant that gets sent to serve under OTHER servants just about the lamest gig ever, it gets worse.

In combat, they transform into a HAWT FEMALE DROW to seduce their opponents. If this fails, they transform back down into it's normal form, violates them with tentacles in order to reduce future will saves, then changes form back to a girl and tries the seduction routine again.

Pretty much the definition of the most pathetic monster ever.


Apparently high priestesses of Lolth get transformed into them after death- as the highest a soul devoted to Lolth can expect to rise.

Which may be the icing on the cake.

From Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker:


You are not dead.

The yochlol's voice sounded in Shakti's mind, feminine and somehow familiar. She recalled vaguely a theology class at Arach Tinilith, the priestess academy, concerning the nature and origins of yochlol. That had been an academic debate, something of little interest to the practical Shakti. Now she wished she had paid closer attention.

"I am in the Abyss," Shakti said carefully, not wishing to openly contradict the handmaiden. "I challenged another priestess and lost. If I am not dead, what am I?"

Here, the yochlol responded. You are here, no more or less. Even in the Abyss, there are many ways of being or not being. Before you stands the glorious form toward which a priestess of power and prestige might aspire!

Beneath the proud words lay a level of irony, and beneath that, despair. Shakti's suspicions hardened into certainty.

"You are not long dead," she ventured. "You still remember your life and your name."

In time, all this will fade, the yochlol promised. The priestess will be forgotten. Only Lolth will remain.

So, even yochlol are somewhat despairing.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-22, 12:12 PM
Hmm, I once made a character with a 2 AC, or 0 when he raged. Sounds pretty pitiful, considering he was like 6th level. His name was the Weavle. Props to anyone who can guess the reference or how I did it.

Whammydill
2010-06-22, 12:28 PM
Bats and toads both have 1/10 CR and no attacks at all. How about a fusion of them?



This would create a BATTLETOAD!

You don't wanna go there....:smallcool:

Lix Lorn
2010-06-22, 12:51 PM
Thanks!

Was he named after a Weavile? :smallconfused:
Also, really really low dexterity and no armour?

Leon
2010-06-22, 12:51 PM
Ive always found the Lemure Devil to be pretty pathetic

Lhurgyof
2010-06-22, 01:22 PM
Thanks!

Was he named after a Weavile? :smallconfused:
Also, really really low dexterity and no armour?

Nah, it's a reference to an internet thing.
I believe it was something along the lines of cursed armor, a playable gelatinous template for the negative natural armor, piss-poor dex, and such.
He had a 12 1/2 foot speed and had nothing going for him except hit points up the wazoo.