Triple 16s hybrid defender [4e]

[true_shinken]

So, I'm trying to create a defender that goes with a triple 16 spread to cover all defenses. I'll probably need to be a hybrid here.
I'm really stuck. I would like to go tempest fighter, but I'd like to use my secondaries more. I would get 16s in Str, Dex and Wis with this setup and I don't really know what to use on my other hybrid side.
My other thought is that defenders really need Con, so a Con based build would probably be a good idea. That would mean I wouldn't use two weapons, though, that I pretty much enjoy...
So if the playground can help me here, I'd like:
- best races for a triple 16 build
- opinions for a level 1 tempest fighter hybrid
- suggestions for the other side of hybrid (rogue? monk? avenger?)

[Excession]

If you're looking for highest possible NADs (that sounds painful :smallwink:) I would lean toward Human Paladin. The +1 to all NADs from both paladin and human is golden for this. Use a Str/Wis, with a strong side in Dex. The +2 from heavy shield will pull your Ref back up to equal.

The Dex will let you qualify for a few feats, but won't actually be used directly. You might need to bump it as level-up to get some of the juicier feats. Some of the interesting feats and their requirements are:

15 Dex and 11th level for Heavy Blade Opportunity
17 Dex and 11th level for Defensive advantage
17 Dex, 21st level, and 21 Str for Heavy Blade Mastery to crit on 19-20
13 Dex for some multiclasses (rogue, monk, and assassin spring to mind)
15 Dex and 11th level for Shield Specialisation (+1 to AC/Ref)
11th level for Shield Mastery, which lets you add your +2 shield bonus to Fort

The Two-Weapon fighting line also requires Dex, but I think the heavy shield is the better option.

At first level, you have 20 AC, 16 Fort, 15 Ref, and 15 Will:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Paladin
Build: Ardent Paladin
Background: Occupation - Military (Athletics class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 20 Fort: 16 Reflex: 15 Will: 15
HP: 31 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +8, Religion +4, Heal +8, Endurance +1, Athletics +5

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -3, Arcana -1, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering +3, History -1, Intimidate, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth -3, Streetwise, Thievery -3

FEATS
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 1: Toughness

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Ardent Strike
Lay on Hands: Ardent Vow
Paladin at-will 1: Valiant Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Holy Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Divine Pursuit
Paladin daily 1: Blood of the Mighty

ITEMS
Plate Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Heavy Shield
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


By 11th, you have 25 AC, 22 Fort, 21 Ref, and 21 Will before adding enhancement bonuses.

[Swordgleam]

A lot of the primal classes like Wis and more than a few have Con or Str, so I'd try looking there.

[true_shinken]

If you're looking for highest possible NADs (that sounds painful :smallwink:) I would lean toward Human Paladin. The +1 to all NADs from both paladin and human is golden for this. Use a Str/Wis, with a strong side in Dex. The +2 from heavy shield will pull your Ref back up to equal.
Wisdom? I'm not so keen on 4e, so bear with me here - I though Paladins were a Charisma class.


The Dex will let you qualify for a few feats, but won't actually be used directly.
Yeah, that's the thing, I wanted to squeeze a bit more out of my Dex, that's why I thought of tempest fighter.


13 Dex for some multiclasses (rogue, monk, and assassin spring to mind)
Yeah, I really want one of those... can't figure out which, though.
What do you think of a Tempest Fighter/Hybrid Brutal Scoundrel multiclassing monk?


A lot of the primal classes like Wis and more than a few have Con or Str, so I'd try looking there.
Yeah, I thought of that... but got Whirling Barbarian on my head and Tempest Fighter does the tanking thing a lot better.

[Swordgleam]

Wisdom? I'm not so keen on 4e, so bear with me here - I though Paladins were a Charisma class.


That's the 'pretty paladin' build. You can make a decent melee paladin without worrying about cha too much.

[NecroRebel]

Wisdom? I'm not so keen on 4e, so bear with me here - I though Paladins were a Charisma class.

Paladins are a Strength class or a Charisma class; all of their attack powers rely on one or the other for to-hit and damage. However, regardless of which route you take, Wisdom powers secondary effects for most powers. It's generally pointless to have both a high STR and a high CHA for a Paladin, since you can fairly easily choose powers such that one of those 2 attributes is completely unused. However, Wisdom will always be somewhat useful.

Note that Chaladins tend to have better offensive power and have a stronger mark than a Straladin, and so make slightly better defenders, but Straladins have better personal defenses and tend to have better secondary effects on their powers due to a lack of primary/secondary attribute overlaps.

[true_shinken]

Paladins are a Strength class or a Charisma class; all of their attack powers rely on one or the other for to-hit and damage. However, regardless of which route you take, Wisdom powers secondary effects for most powers. It's generally pointless to have both a high STR and a high CHA for a Paladin, since you can fairly easily choose powers such that one of those 2 attributes is completely unused. However, Wisdom will always be somewhat useful.

Note that Chaladins tend to have better offensive power and have a stronger mark than a Straladin, and so make slightly better defenders, but Straladins have better personal defenses and tend to have better secondary effects on their powers due to a lack of primary/secondary attribute overlaps.

Oh, thanks a lot, I'm really a noob when it comes to 4e ^^
Paladins tend to be poor TWFers, though, so I'll probably stick to the tempest fighter idea.

[Excession]

I'm not sure about Tempest Fighters. Their strength is being able to mark two targets at-will, but they give up a lot for that, especially in AC. If you hybrid one, you give up even more. One feat to get Hybrid Talent, possibly another to get back to hide or chain, assuming you qualify. You lose another 1 AC and Ref from not using a heavy shield, and 1 Fort for being a hybrid fighter rather than a full fighter.

Also, unless you start with an 18 in Dex, you won't have higher AC than if you were wearing chain. Granted, there are some tempest flavoured powers with Dex riders. Tempests also lean toward light blades, so can hybrid or MC rogue better than other types. Their preference for off-hand weapons mean you lose nothing for being small, so Halflings with their superb defensive racial and feats start looking good.

[Reluctance]

How far out do you expect to play this character? The game assumes your level boosts will go to the same two stats over your career, so one of those 16's will languish. Spreading out your level bumps will throw off the assumed math behind the game severely; 4e expects a narrow band of to-hit and defense numbers, and being mediocre at everything doesn't cut it.

If you're still getting the feel for 4e, let me strongly recommend against hybrids. It's too easy to have two halves that don't synergize with each other at all, and it's again better to be really good at what you're focused on rather than average at a couple of things. Better to make a straight-classed tempest fighter until you understand the ins and outs of the system, then experiment with wonkier options once you're more familiar with things.

[Mando Knight]

Paladins are a Strength class or a Charisma class; all of their attack powers rely on one or the other for to-hit and damage. However, regardless of which route you take, Wisdom powers secondary effects for most powers. It's generally pointless to have both a high STR and a high CHA for a Paladin, since you can fairly easily choose powers such that one of those 2 attributes is completely unused. However, Wisdom will always be somewhat useful.
Note that Dragonborn Paladins are basically the exception to the rule: Racial +Str/Cha means you can tack on a decent Wisdom, grab high Strength, dump Int, etc. and end up with both a decently strong Divine Challenge/Sanction and decent ability with the Strength-based powers. (Which, by the way, are the power ones in my experience. The 7[W] Paladin power is Strength-based, as is the 4[W] level one daily. On top of that, the Champion of Order, with its shutdown power Certain Justice also has a Strength-based to-hit.) There's enough Strength-based powers with Charisma based riders to make it worthwhile, as well... and both of your Channel Divinity powers are useful.

[Fax Celestis]

I had great fun with a Warden//Paladin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=172640) (gestalt), but I don't know how viable a Warden|Paladin is.

[Draz74]

Hm, I know it's not optimal ... but could a Tempest Fighter | Warden be playable, with 16 STR/DEX/WIS? Hide Armor and decent Dex should mean decent AC. Boost STR at every opportunity, but kind of split the other two.

[Meta]

If you're looking for highest possible NADs (that sounds painful :smallwink:) I would lean toward Human Paladin. The +1 to all NADs from both paladin and human is golden for this. Use a Str/Wis, with a strong side in Dex. The +2 from heavy shield will pull your Ref back up to equal.

The Dex will let you qualify for a few feats, but won't actually be used directly. You might need to bump it as level-up to get some of the juicier feats. Some of the interesting feats and their requirements are:

15 Dex and 11th level for Heavy Blade Opportunity
17 Dex and 11th level for Defensive advantage
17 Dex, 21st level, and 21 Str for Heavy Blade Mastery to crit on 19-20
13 Dex for some multiclasses (rogue, monk, and assassin spring to mind)
15 Dex and 11th level for Shield Specialisation (+1 to AC/Ref)
11th level for Shield Mastery, which lets you add your +2 shield bonus to Fort

The Two-Weapon fighting line also requires Dex, but I think the heavy shield is the better option.

At first level, you have 20 AC, 16 Fort, 15 Ref, and 15 Will:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Paladin
Build: Ardent Paladin
Background: Occupation - Military (Athletics class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 20 Fort: 16 Reflex: 15 Will: 15
HP: 31 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +8, Religion +4, Heal +8, Endurance +1, Athletics +5

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -3, Arcana -1, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering +3, History -1, Intimidate, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth -3, Streetwise, Thievery -3

FEATS
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 1: Toughness

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Ardent Strike
Lay on Hands: Ardent Vow
Paladin at-will 1: Valiant Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Holy Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Divine Pursuit
Paladin daily 1: Blood of the Mighty

ITEMS
Plate Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Heavy Shield
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


By 11th, you have 25 AC, 22 Fort, 21 Ref, and 21 Will before adding enhancement bonuses.


This is your best best bet. Dex will naturally hit an 18, and you wont need any higher for feats. Blades are pretty much a necessity cuz you have dex and and low to hit. I think you'll have a hard time finding something more effective that what Excession recommended

[Kurald Galain]

So, I'm trying to create a defender that goes with a triple 16 spread to cover all defenses.
In practice, covering all your defenses depends on the sum of your NADs, not every individual NAD. If you have 18/18/18 fort, ref, and will, you will end up being hit exactly as often as if you have 20/20/14 (or some permutation thereof), or 22/16/16. The advantage of the latter is that your attacks will end up being significantly stronger.


4e expects a narrow band of to-hit and defense numbers, and being mediocre at everything doesn't cut it.

If you're still getting the feel for 4e, let me strongly recommend against hybrids
Also, this. An effective character in 4E relies on being good at one or two things, and depending on his teammates for the rest. Being average at everything is not an improvement.