PDA

View Full Version : [L5R] Roleplaying an arrogant duelist



Askold
2010-06-17, 07:43 PM
So, I'm gonna start a L5R roleplay game very soon, and I have no insight whatsoever on the way gameplay works, and the DM (dunno if it's called this way for L5R as in D&D) pretty much refuses to give any type of gameplay advice/explanation because he freaks out about mechanics powergaming and the like, and will only give me insights after I pick Clan/Family/School.

Therefore, for all the former players of Legend of the Five Rings, I seek for advice!

I want to roleplay a samurai warrior that's the biggest arrogant around. He'd be promoted a few steps up in the military career, but would't go much further (because of lack of discipline). Mechanics-like, I want him perfect for 1vs1. Hit hard, fast, and take the least damage he can. Melee too. Honor-related, don't really mind, as long as it doesn't affect his performance.

Just so I can "The hell? Are you saying I'M WRONG?? I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL!" around at will, and have a decent chance to win. (:

Saph
2010-06-17, 07:52 PM
I'm not an expert on the mechanics side of L5R, but I do know the setting fairly well. The traditional duellist clans are Dragon (Mirumoto family) and Crane (I think either Kakita or Doji).

RPing an arrogant samurai can be lots of fun (and there are certainly enough of them in Rokugan) but it's probably a good idea to avoid getting into too many duels unless you plan to get yourself killed off. Combat in L5R is quite deadly and a duel typically ends with one or both parties dead very fast. For this reason, duels don't happen very often - if they did, there wouldn't be many samurai left! So you'll typically be using the threat of a duel to make someone back down, rather than actually going through with it.

Knaight
2010-06-17, 07:54 PM
Which version of L5R? Its needed for the mechanics.

Askold
2010-06-17, 08:12 PM
Third edition, and thanks for the insight so far! :)

By the way, what is the general mechanics behind Lion Clan warriors?

Umael
2010-06-17, 08:25 PM
Okay, first of all, your GM is freaking out too much.

Second, in third edition, you need a good Iaijutsu skill, good Void, good Agility, and good Reflexes (I think there is one other thing you'll need, but I can't recall it - help me, people!).

Third, the Kakita Dueling School, the standard Crane Clan bushi, is very good for dueling. So is the Ronin Duelist, although they aren't as well known (if you want the swagger, being known as having been from the Kakita Dueling School will get people's attention).

HOWEVER, most Crane are known for being polished and refined, to the point where they have a reputation as being weak and effeminite (sp?). You can go Different School advantage and pick a family that is more likely to have a bit of bluster to them - or you can just play a Crane that is somewhat uncouth as Crane go - or play a Ronin Duelist.

Fourth, what do you mean, "what are the mechanics behind the Lion Clan warriors?" Are you talking about the School Techniques?

Askold
2010-06-17, 08:29 PM
Yes, school techniques, and general reputation / way of fighting.

Now there's something to start from. What is that "Different School advantage"? Anything bad associated with it?

IdleMuse
2010-06-17, 10:07 PM
Different School basically means you were trained in a different school from that which you were born into. Generally not worth taking, since the clan+family stat-increase is really the only thing this changes, and that is usually pretty good for the in-clan schools anyway.

Lion clan is pretty good for what you want to be roleplaying, often seen as brash and less refined (although stereotyping woo!), but mechanically they are more inclined towards skirmish rather than duel. In L5R 3rd, there is a significant difference between Iaijutsu duels and random skirmishes, and a character built for one will generally not be amazing at the other. Not awful, but not really optimised. Lion are regarded as tacticians, brave and powerful fighters who really know their way around a battlefield. They make the best Generals.

The simple way to be good-ish at duels is to raise your Void ring, and your Iaijutsu skill, but you also need Agility and Reflexes (your opponent gets to pick which you use during a duel, and so having one weak one can hurt a lot).

For melee skirmish, you still need reflexes, but also Kenjutsu and Defence skills, and Strength for damage, and Earth Ring for HP.

The Lion Bushi school grants a bonus to agility, and depending on which familiy, a bonus to perception, intelligence, awareness, or strength. Awareness can be quite useful in a duel, so if you wanted to go for a Lion Duelist (quite an interestingly non-stereotypical concept), a Kitsu family member trained in the Akodo Bushi school would work okay, and your school rank abilities would make sure you didn't suck in skirmish as well (I think you get to add your water ring to damage, and ignore all mundane armour).

You would need to spend a fair bit of xp on Iaijutsu though, as well as buying a bit of Kenjutsu, since Lion is not one of the clans than can replace one with the other. And regards rings, L5R is inherently MAD, you really need to up a number of stats at some point, but most importantly for Duelists (and a lot of other folk as well), Void ring.

Swordguy
2010-06-17, 11:21 PM
OK, this is worth breaking silence for.

First thing you need to know as an L5R player is that roleplaying in L5R is NOT anything like D&D. Seriously, it's not. Up to the point where if you try to play it like D&D, the GM's Guide's have essentially explicit instructions to kill off your character. Yes - that's RAW. Fair warning. It's not being a bad GM, it's keeping true to the aesthetics of the setting.

Secondarily, the L5R community at large takes an extremely dim view toward anything resembling excessive optimization. The Heroes of Rokugan game (the equivalent of the Living Greyhawk campaign) has been known to go so far as to physically throw out players at GenCon and Origins (as in, physically throw people out) who go out of their way to break - or even slightly bend - the mechanics. This is an understandable defense mechanism due to the fact that the 3e/3.5e ruleset is, by the line developer's own statements, a poorly written, badly playtested, buggy mess that makes D&D3.5 with all the options set to "on" look like the pinnacle of balanced game design. So - fair warning. It's very easy to optimize (stealth archers doing 10k10+350ish damage per arrow 3/round, courtiers automatically forcing PCs and NPCs to seppuku, being a Tsuruchi Bounty Hunter or a Mirumoto Bushi), and even easier to get banned off the community for doing so. If your GM is a part of that community at all, well...you've been warned. Again, RAW is that the GM can kill off characters at any time and for any reason, explicitly including overpowered-ness.

Now, how to be "effective" and not overpowered?

It looks like you want to play a Lion who is competent as a duelist and also competent at a skirmish. That's not hard, but you're gonna have to concentrate on one thing first. I highly suggest leaning toward skirmish survivability first - skirmishes are FAR more common than duels, so if you're geared toward surviving those, you'll live long enough to get good at the duels.

So, what to do?

Well, to start off, let's play to some stereotypes. The Akodo tend to be the braggarts of the Clan (Matsu just kill you, and Ikoma just make fun of you while writing down the verbal slams for posterity), so start off with that. You'll start off with a +1 to your Perception. This isn't bad - Perception is a fairly important Trait to have (it connects to a LOT of skills). Then take the Different Schools Advantage and study with the Kakita (Kakita Bushi, L5R 3er pg 125). You NEED fluff to justify this - fortunately, bushi attending other Clan schools aren't all that uncommon. Say you were a hostage of the Crane Clan, but the thing they wanted you held hostage for has ended, so you don't qualify for the Hostage Disadvantage (so no free points, but no auto-death hanging over your head either). The Kakita Bushi school grants you +1 Reflexes, and allows the substitution of Iaijutsu for Kenjutsu (so basically you don't need to take Kenjutsu for anything). The Reflexes bonus is great - L5R is a game of the quick and the dead - and the skill substitution will save a BUNCH of XP over the long run. The extra focus attempt is alright, I guess. It doesn't come up that much. Finally, the school gives you a list of skills and a couple of choices. I highly recommend Athletics as your Bugei skill (since it covers all running, jumping, and climbing), and Storytelling as your High Skill (Storytelling covers Bragging and raising your Glory stat via telling other folks how awesome you are).


So, you've got your 2 free Trait bonuses, and your Rank 1 Technique. Let's talk about free points. You have 42 Character Points remaining (because we had to spend 3 to get Different School). To be a good duelist, you need to raise Agility, Reflexes, and Void. To be a good general combatant, you need to raise your Earth Ring, have a little bit of Strength, and raise your Agility Reflexes, and Void. Let's take 12 CP and raise your Void to a 3, and take 12 CP and raise your Agility to a 3. That's 24 of 42 CP spent, and all three of your primary dueling stats are at a 3 (not bad for a Rank 1 character). Next, we'll spend 5 CP and raise your Iaijutsu Skill to a Rank 3 (you got it for free at Rank 1 Kakita Duelist). Spend 3 CP to buy the Defense skill at Rank 2 (and make sure you look at the Defense Errata on the AEG website - it changed weekly for about 3 months at one point), and 2 CP to buy Meditation at 2 so have a chance to get spent Void back. This leaves you with 13 CP left.

Looking at advantages, I would pick up Strength of the Earth (2 CP) to help ignore wound penalties (since you have a low starting Earth) and Bishamon's Blessing to increase your skirmish damage output (2 CP - you're a Lion, even though you studied in a Crane school). "Technically" you could take a Kakita Blade...don't. Your GM will be pissed, and with good reason (they're for rising Crane stars, so you're committing a pretty big breach of etiquette by having one), even if it is the optimal dueling weapon.

The rest of the character creation process is up to you. You've got 9 CP left to customize - more if you take some disadvantages (Contrary is a good one, as is Haunted if you can roleplay it well - be aware the Disadvantage values are deliberately lower than they should be to be "fair". This is a design feature, not a bug. Under no circumstances take Momoku. Ever. If you acquire it, suicide and start over.). What are you aiming for? To be a good combat character, you need an Earth Ring of 3, Agility and Reflexes of 4 each, a Void of at least 3, and a primary attack skill rank at 5 (it's not at all cost-effective to get it higher). Make these happen. Your biggest issue will be TN to be Hit - it's far easier to raise attack rolls than defensive ability. The Defense Skill adds its rank to your TNtbH, or x2 your Defense Skill once you hit Rank 7, and the War Fans skill can add up to its rank once you're to Rank 5 (can't recall offhand). So, War Fans might be something to get with free CP - they're usable in 1 hand, as is your Katana. Dueling stats (Agility, Reflexes, Void, Iaijutsu) generally need to be as high as possible - but having the Attributes at 4-5 is as high as practical.

Once you have your PC, your goal is to take Multiple Schools and go back to your home clan and start to Akodo Bushi track. Akodo are awesome in skirmishes (ignore armor at Rank 1!), meaning you can call lots of Raises, and get the bonus from Bishamon's Blessing a LOT. Fluff-wise, this fits right in with your character - you're going home, and learning from your Clan. Your GM probably won't have an issue with this, since it makes sense.

So, at the end of character creation, we've got you looking like this:


Akodo XXXXXX (Kakita Bushi 1)
EARTH 2
AIR 2
-Reflexes 3
FIRE 2
-Agility 3
WATER 2
-Perception 3
VOID 3

Iaijutsu 3
Kenjutsu (Katana) 1
Etiquette 1
Meditation 2
Kyujutsu 1
Athletics 1
Storytelling 1
Defense 2

Advantages
Bishamon's Blessing
Strength of the Earth 2
Different School

Disadvantages
None

Free CP: 9
Insight: Approx 133 w/o free CP used


And, at a minimum, you want to get to about here:


Akodo XXXXXX (Kakita Bushi 1/Akodo Bushi 1+)
EARTH 3
AIR 2
-Reflexes 4
FIRE 2
-Agility 4
WATER 3
VOID 4

Iaijutsu (Focus) 5
Kenjutsu (Katana) 1
Etiquette 2
Meditation 2
Kyujutsu 3
Athletics 3
Storytelling (Bragging) 3
Defense 7
War Fans 5

Advantages
Bishamon's Blessing
Strength of the Earth 2
Different School

Disadvantages
???

Insight: Approx 169 + Mastery Bonuses (Rank 2-3)
Attack Roll: 9k4+1 Free Raise (9k4+1 FR hits a TNtbH of 40 about 60% of the time...and you ignore armor bonuses!)
TNtbH: 5+20 (Reflexes 4)+14 (Defense 7)+5 (War Fans 5)+5 (Light Armo)r=44


Don't forget about your free Heritage Table Roll!

Askold
2010-06-18, 04:05 PM
"Don't forget about your free Heritage Table Roll!"

What is this? (:

Umael
2010-06-18, 06:04 PM
Different School basically means you were trained in a different school from that which you were born into. Generally not worth taking, since the clan+family stat-increase is really the only thing this changes, and that is usually pretty good for the in-clan schools anyway.

I disagree to a degree. I found that Different School does a wonderful job of helping you create a character concept* that you might not get from staying strictly In-Clan. Furthermore, if you want to optimize the mechanical benefits to your character, Different School can allow you to break equal, not lose points.

* Kuni Family + Kitsuki Investigator = CSI

Here is how:

You get +1 to one particular Trait for your Family and +1 to one particular Trait for you School. That means you get to increase two of your Traits from 2 to 3 - OR - on the occasion, the two Traits are the same (Matsu Family, Matsu Berserker School), and you increase one Trait from 2 to 4.

It costs 12 Character Points (or Experience Points) to go from 2 to 3, and 16 to go from 3 to 4. Two traits going from 2 to 3 is worth 24 Character Points, but one trait going from 2 to 4 is worth 28 Character Points. Since Different School is worth 4 points, you break even, or if you take Hostage, it is worth 3points.

Swordguy
2010-06-19, 01:37 AM
"Don't forget about your free Heritage Table Roll!"

What is this? (:

L5R 3eRevised, pg 161, bottom right corner (it's easy to miss). All characters get 1 free roll on the Heritage Tables (pgs 162-3) representing stuff their ancestors have done that have a mechanical effect on your character. Additional rolls cost 1CP each.

For some idiotic reason, you roll on these tables last, instead of just after choosing your Clan. However, this means that any free ranks of skills you get from these rolls can go above the normal Rank 3 (for School skills)/Rank 2 (for all other skills) cap that's there when you purchase skills with Free CP during character creation. So say the character outlined above (with Rank 3 Iaijutsu) gets a result of Distinguished Past>A Hero's End>Duelist (gain 1 rank each in Jenjutsu and Iaijutsu or two ranks in one of them). Your starting Iaijutsu Skill Rank could be a 5.

Umael
2010-06-19, 02:47 AM
However, this means that any free ranks of skills you get from these rolls can go above the normal Rank 3 (for School skills)/Rank 2 (for all other skills) cap that's there when you purchase skills with Free CP during character creation.

...

Is it written that the normal cap is Rank 3?

Because there are a few schools (Tsuruchi Bounty Hunter) that start with Rank 2 in one of their skills (Kyujutsu).

Swordguy
2010-06-19, 03:54 AM
...

Is it written that the normal cap is Rank 3?

Because there are a few schools (Tsuruchi Bounty Hunter) that start with Rank 2 in one of their skills (Kyujutsu).

Not exactly. The specific rule is found pg 89 L5R3eR, under the heading for "Skills" in relation to free Character Points.

"A character can increase any given Skill only two Ranks beyond its starting Rank during character creation"

There's very few exceptions to the 3/2 "effective" cap (in fact, the Tsuruchi BH and the Otaku Battle Maiden Horsemanship skills are the only ones in the core rulebook), so it's just easier to call it a cap. And, for reference, the reason you can increase a starting skill beyond Rank 3/2 with the Heritage Table results is because "you" aren't choosing to increase it. The skills are increased without your input - just the input of the dice. The quote above is directly related only to the spending of CP ("[CP] may be spent in the following ways:").

Torturous logic, yes. Necessary, because of the order in which character creation works. The Heritage Table is specifically the last thing you do aside from calculating Insight Rank. So what happens if you get a result that would otherwise increase your skills beyond the cap? You can't have the CP back, because then you'd be spending them on other stuff and thus the Heritage Table Roll wouldn't be the "last" thing you do. Thus, it was clarified on the AEG site that Heritage Table results bypass the effective cap.

I did say that L5R 3/3.5 is "a poorly written, badly playtested, buggy mess that makes D&D3.5 with all the options set to "on" look like the pinnacle of balanced game design" for a reason upthread. :smallwink:

Umael
2010-06-19, 12:14 PM
The only other example I can think of is Daikoku's Blessing. Have a school that allows you to take... Commerce is it?

*checks book*

So any school that says "Any 1 skill", raise it by two, then take Daikoku's Blessing.

There. Starting character has Commerce 4. Game-breaking.

Coidzor
2010-06-19, 12:33 PM
OK, this is worth breaking silence for.

First thing you need to know as an L5R player is that roleplaying in L5R is NOT anything like D&D. Seriously, it's not. Up to the point where if you try to play it like D&D, the GM's Guide's have essentially explicit instructions to kill off your character. Yes - that's RAW. Fair warning. It's not being a bad GM, it's keeping true to the aesthetics of the setting.

Secondarily, the L5R community at large takes an extremely dim view toward anything resembling excessive optimization. The Heroes of Rokugan game (the equivalent of the Living Greyhawk campaign) has been known to go so far as to physically throw out players at GenCon and Origins (as in, physically throw people out) who go out of their way to break - or even slightly bend - the mechanics. This is an understandable defense mechanism due to the fact that the 3e/3.5e ruleset is, by the line developer's own statements, a poorly written, badly playtested, buggy mess that makes D&D3.5 with all the options set to "on" look like the pinnacle of balanced game design. So - fair warning. It's very easy to optimize (stealth archers doing 10k10+350ish damage per arrow 3/round, courtiers automatically forcing PCs and NPCs to seppuku, being a Tsuruchi Bounty Hunter or a Mirumoto Bushi), and even easier to get banned off the community for doing so. If your GM is a part of that community at all, well...you've been warned. Again, RAW is that the GM can kill off characters at any time and for any reason, explicitly including overpowered-ness.

No. It is not. It is never understandable to ACTUALLY resort to physical violence in this context.

The Big Dice
2010-06-19, 05:18 PM
First thing you need to know as an L5R player is that roleplaying in L5R is NOT anything like D&D. Seriously, it's not. Up to the point where if you try to play it like D&D, the GM's Guide's have essentially explicit instructions to kill off your character. Yes - that's RAW. Fair warning. It's not being a bad GM, it's keeping true to the aesthetics of the setting.
This much is true, L5R is quite arrogant and elitist in that the writers and players see themselves as being "better" than the people who play other games.

Yes, the setting can be quite harsh, but the way the L5R community treats people who are new to the setting can be off puttingly brutal.


Secondarily, the L5R community at large takes an extremely dim view toward anything resembling excessive optimization. The Heroes of Rokugan game (the equivalent of the Living Greyhawk campaign) has been known to go so far as to physically throw out players at GenCon and Origins (as in, physically throw people out) who go out of their way to break - or even slightly bend - the mechanics.
I find this to be a massive double standard. First, Heroes of Rokugan is an unofficial game, not something subsidised by the publishers of L5R. Though the guy who set it up is now one of the lead writers for L5R. It's also known for the way people will play certain concepts (like duellists) and race to maximise the relevant skills, ignoring everything else a rounded character might need.

The thing is, I love L5R and Rokugan, but I've found it to have moved away from it's roots as a samurai game with heavy influences from samurai movies. Now it's a self referential thing that only shares the lightest of connections with the material that originally inspired it.

Kyuu Himura
2010-06-19, 05:45 PM
Cranes make good duelists, you can go Crane.
Dragons are also good duelists, though not so specialized as Crane... also, many people believe some Dragon Schools are overpowered (Mirumoto Bushi, Hojatsu's Legacy...).

Arrogance is a common trait in many samurai, but it is not a well seen trait. If you want to be the guy saying "What?? you got a problem?? wanaa fix it with a duel??!" you better be really good at talking to other people. Because in Rokugani law the challenged party gets to choose the way you duel so a courtier having a problem with your cockiness might challenge you to a duel of poetry, a tattooed monk to a riddle contest, a Lion general to a game of Go, etc, etc, etc... you not only want kenjutsu and iaijutsu (and defense), you also want etiquette, courtier, lore: law and (if it comes to it) deceit(intmidation) to always be the guy with the last word about how will you duel. And be carefull about getting cocky to a samurai with a greater status, influence is in direct proportion to ass-kicking capacity, even people of a more "pacifist" bent like the good ol' Togashi Satsu will kick your ass if you get them angry enough.
So, final tip to the cocky duelist: have a lot of tricks, don't be such a focused character, have at least one way of making everyone play the game by your rules, else, write your death poem

IdleMuse
2010-06-19, 05:46 PM
No. It is not. It is never understandable to ACTUALLY resort to physical violence in this context.

*agrees* I know L5R has serious meta-arcplot and all that, but seriously. There's such a debateably thin line between powergaming and simply playing a character that's poweful. My first character was a Mirumoto Bushi with a fair number of fairly powerful skirmish abilities (large, bishamon's blessing, high ranks of kenjutsu and defense, awesome kata, etc), and statistially, he's pretty untouchable. In a skirmish. In court, and in iaijutsu duels, not so much, but this was a character I wanted to play. I'm not deliberately powergaming (and indeed, statted this guy up without reading half the rules), he's just that kind of Samurai.

In L5R games i've played, they've been political, plot-centric, and points really mattered little in this. I don't know how the gen-con games work, but never in any game i've played have you been able to roll dice to have a brainwave and solve the plot, and literally chucking people out of events because they are playing a more powerful build is, in my opinion, somewhat akin to admitting that your game is ruled by stats and stats alone, which makes for a pretty poor roleplaying game. Emphasis on the roleplaying. Even if I was playing a kami who auto-succeeded on every roll, it wouldn't help me solve plot.

On another note, broken rules should be fixed by errata, not banning people for "even slightly" trying to take advantage of the mechanics. And I know errata has been published. If you have an system problem, fix it, don't be a jerk and ruin players fun. Fingers crossed 4th edition is going to be robust and interesting!

Back on topic, the concept of a Lion duelist is fresh and fun, and I don't believe you should have to cross-clan school to get kakita training to do it. (I find it amusing, Swordguy, that in one breath you criticise optimisation, and then in the next, suggest a normally-quite-rare background blag to get one of the more powerful duelling school ranks for a character it wouldn't really fit, outside of a pure mechanical-optimisation sense.)

OP, I suggest you just cash out for both Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu. Buying Void as a major priority is rarely a bad plan, and upping the other two duel traits will make you a perfectly passable duelist. Remember, the majority of duels aren't invovling elitely skilled Kakita opponents, and many (most?) Samurai will back down to a Kakita after the formal assement stage anyway, purely on reputation.

Askold
2010-06-19, 06:01 PM
According to what my DM gave me access to:

"Mirumoto - The largest of the Dragon families (it constitutes about 75% of the clan population), the Mirumoto are the link between the unorthodox clan and Rokugani tradition. The history of the family is that of loyalty and obedience to a lord they could not understand. The Mirumoto are famous for their unique two-weapon fighting style"

Any chance this might bring another kind of off-hand weapon, and some interesting fighting options? Is it just me or the flavor of War Fans is kind of strange?

IdleMuse
2010-06-19, 06:30 PM
War fans are kinda... odd. Actually, mechanically, they don't work that well for Mirumoto, since most of their special abilities trigger off dual-wielding your Katana and Wakizashi. The extent of the capabilities is generally that you don't take the penalties others do for dual-wielding, and also gain some useful defense bonuses for the off-hand parrying.

The main reason Mirumoto are frequently considered 'broken' is that they gain a second attack at School Rank 2, whereas most (all?) other schools that get this ability get it at rank 3 or above. And School Rank is a big thing, it take an awful lot of xp (based on avg 2.5 a session) to raise enough stuff to put you up an Insight (and hence School) Rank.