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acid_ninja
2010-06-18, 04:40 AM
So I'm planning on running a RL one shot (probably one of the AEG ones in the same series as Against the Barrow King) but I've only got two players out of five.

My questions are:

Can two gestalt characters handle the workload of a party of non-gestalt characters of the same level? If not, how should I adjust the level?

What are some good suggestions for gestalts? They're not especially experienced or good at optimizing so I'd rather keep it simple - two classes the whole way. I'm thinking level 9 or so and I have pretty much everything sourcebook-wise and don't really ban anything. These guys will never create Pun Pun.

Anyone run any of the AEG adventures and have a favorite that works for a one session game?

Thanks

kamikasei
2010-06-18, 04:50 AM
Gestalt widens the power curve even further than in normal play, so it's hard to give general advice - you have to look at the characters themselves on a case-by-case basis.

You can make, say, a wizard//rogue and fighter//cleric, and they'll be capable in a given day of casting the same spells and making the same skill checks, etc., that a standard party of four can; but they only have half the actions in combat, so the diversity of their abilities doesn't actually double their power.

Each encounter will have to be adjusted individually, and how will depend on the characters themselves. A general guideline will be to have fewer, individually more powerful, enemies to match the smaller party of tougher characters.

The general rule in gestalt is to go with
a) ability synergy - better a wizard//archivist than a wizard//cleric, so you only have to focus on intelligence instead of both intelligence and wisdom, for example. Making sure using one classes' abilities doesn't interfere with the other's is another rule - better a psion//warblade than a wizard//warblade since psion manifesting won't be affected if you use the armor proficiencies warblade gives you.
b) extra actions - you have twice the pool of abilities to draw on, so anything that gives you extra actions you can use to take advantage of them is a plus.
c) active and passive - picking one class whose abilities you use actively and another which gives you passive benefits lets you get around the action limit by having only one side of your gestalt require in-combat actions to use.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-18, 05:58 AM
The major thing gestalt characters lack is action economy. There are ways around this, such as minions like animal companions, familiars, wild cohorts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), and summoned creatures.

I'm not familiar with this adventure, but I'm guessing you'll probably need them to fill the four major roles: tank/melee damage, trapmonkey, arcane/batman, and divine/healer. Pets can typically handle the role of tank/melee to some extent, but both characters should be capable of that as a secondary role as well. Your trapmonkey should probably be either a Beguiler, which can somewhat fill the arcane role, or a Factotum, which is probably the best class in the game for a gestalt character to take. Divine should probably be a Cleric if there's a lot of undead, or a Druid if there's not.

With most spellcasters you should always try to prestige class out as soon as possible without losing any spellcasting ability, and gestalt is no different.

Ideally you'd have a Factotum//Wizard/PrC/PrC, hopefully with at least one pet such as via Improved/Dragon Familiar, Wild Cohort, or an Eternal Wand of Hound of Doom (CW). Specializing in Conjuration to get Rapid Summoning and Enhanced Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants) wouldn't be a bad idea, and you could always take Obtain Familiar which is actually better since it counts prestige class levels as well. I'd probably go Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 6//Factotum for it, and give him Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) three times. The alternative would probably be a Beguiler//Warblade, dipping one level of Mindbender on the Beguiler side and using Versatile Spellcaster to get early access to the next level of spells.

For a Cleric you should probably go Crusader//Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 3, aiming to get two more Radiant Servant levels and put everything else in Morninglord. His domains should be Healing and Sun, using the spontaneous domain casting ACF from PH2 for the Healing domain. He should have a few items which improve his ability to turn undead, such as a Phylactery of Undead Turning, Rod of Defiance, and an Ephod of Authority.

If the other character is a Druid, you'll probably want to go something like Swordsage or Warblade or Crusader, or maybe even Barbarian or (Mystic) Ranger with it. Yet another option would be to take something like Crusader or Warblade 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 4 with it, eventually taking all ten levels of War Mind and all six levels of Sanctified Mind. Definitely get Companion Spellbond, Natural Bond, and Natural Spell, and get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or a Dire Eagle (RoS) as his companion since Natural Bond will negate the 'level -3' to count his entire druid level for its benefits. If you use Mystic Ranger (Dragon 336) you'll want to get the feat Sword of the Arcane Order as well.

Escheton
2010-06-18, 06:34 AM
Factotum/Warblade//Wizard/Wizard prc Split the factotum/warblade as you see fit. Consider getting factotum 3 fast though as it makes you a tripping god. Knockdown and curlingwave strike are great feats for this guy.

For spells take mirror move from the online publications to get feats from the other guys as well. So if the Wizard goes Expertise, the cleric could go the Power Attack line.

Binder/Crusader//Cleric/Cleric prestige should net you massive healing, utility and basic fighting skill.

Now, you could go Jade phoenix mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator and just take a wizard and cleric level on the other side of those that the prestigeclasses don't grant them for the best progression possible. But there are many prestiges that might better fit one's style.

Gnaritas
2010-06-18, 08:24 AM
What are some good suggestions for gestalts? They're not especially experienced or good at optimizing so I'd rather keep it simple - two classes the whole way. I'm thinking level 9 or so and I have pretty much everything sourcebook-wise and don't really ban anything. These guys will never create Pun Pun.

I am reading this thread and am wondering if the builds aren't too complicated for non-experienced players. ToB-classes and Factotum aren't the easiest classes to understand if you are used to just the base-classes.

Also he asked to keep it as simple as two classes the whole way.

So in case he really wants to keep it simple i would say something along the lines of Wizard//Druid and Cleric//Fighter. Both capable of handling there own in combat and an extra Animal companion in a party of just 2 is even the better....

Gnaeus
2010-06-18, 08:33 AM
So in case he really wants to keep it simple i would say something along the lines of Wizard//Druid and Cleric//Fighter. Both capable of handling there own in combat and an extra Animal companion in a party of just 2 is even the better....

Double casting progression usually isn't a good idea either. Druid//Monk is a great core gestalt with good synergy and an active/passive class combo. Add a Sorcerer//Paladin or Sorcerer//Rogue depending on how much trapfinding you will need. Beguiler//Duskblade is also a great option if you are willing to go non core for your trapfinder but don't want to leap into ToB.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 08:35 AM
I am reading this thread and am wondering if the builds aren't too complicated for non-experienced players. ToB-classes and Factotum aren't the easiest classes to understand if you are used to just the base-classes.

Also he asked to keep it as simple as two classes the whole way.

So in case he really wants to keep it simple i would say something along the lines of Wizard//Druid and Cleric//Fighter. Both capable of handling there own in combat and an extra Animal companion in a party of just 2 is even the better....
Well, what you define as complexity? because caster gestalts have a HUGE amount of spells and separate lists to keep track.
Maybe something less cramped? Wizard-rogue, monk-cleric, ranger-fighter(lolfeats)

Now, if the idea is to have 2 characters fill as many party roles as possible, you're stuck with the more crunchy classes. Factotum alone covers 3/4 of the core utilities, so they probably can't escape from that.

Escheton
2010-06-18, 09:07 AM
The problem there is that 2 gestalts keeping it simple do not equal a full party but 2 gestalts working it do.
Otherwise you are dead anyways. If the new players can only handle a healbot cleric and a blaster wizard and not take at least close to full advantage of these base classes then gestalt simply isnt for them.
If they can, then they might as well take a little effort to read up and do it properly.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 09:10 AM
It might be a good idea to design the campaign challenges around a group that isn't complete too, even if that might feel "duller". Complete Warrior has a couple suggestions for magicless campaigns.