PDA

View Full Version : The dreaded katana threads?



Frog Dragon
2010-06-18, 09:39 AM
Since I haven't been around the gaming scene long enough to witness the "katana debacle" which I've heard about. Apparently, in the old wotc forums, it got so bad that they had to ban katana threads for a good while? So what was the big problem? Does anyone have a link to one of these?

The Dark Fiddler
2010-06-18, 09:45 AM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bulls**t that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Or, at least, that's what I'd assume it was. Because that's the copypasta meme (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20).

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-18, 09:48 AM
In summation: Japanophiles get too worked up about their super special Japanese swords that were, like, totally badass and sharp enough to cut tanks in half.

PersonMan
2010-06-18, 09:49 AM
In summation: Japanophiles get too worked up about their super special Japanese swords that were, like, totally badass and sharp enough to cut tanks in half.

Pfft. They could totally slice entire battleships in half. :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 09:52 AM
They bitch about katanas because they haven't discovered the chainsword.

Greenish
2010-06-18, 10:07 AM
In summation: Japanophiles get too worked up about their super special Japanese swords that were, like, totally badass and sharp enough to cut tanks in half.Which triggers the SIWOTI-syndrome on those prone to it, leading to a fast downwards spiral of the discussion.

Another_Poet
2010-06-18, 10:08 AM
They bitch about katanas because they haven't discovered the chainsword.

DING DING you are correct sir

Ormagoden
2010-06-18, 10:09 AM
Thanks dark fiddler! That was a good laugh.

I could sum that up as "I own a real katana but don't know anything about them so watch me get all my facts wrong!"

Obviously that guy has never seen an angel sword...
They cut through engine blocks for real.

2xMachina
2010-06-18, 10:10 AM
But... but... I've seen someone use a katana to cut a battleship!

Scorpina
2010-06-18, 10:15 AM
Which triggers the SIWOTI-syndrome on those prone to it, leading to a fast downwards spiral of the discussion.

What does SIWOTI mean?

2xMachina
2010-06-18, 10:17 AM
http://xkcd.com/386/

Google it, first result...

Myth
2010-06-18, 10:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc :smallsmile:

RndmNumGen
2010-06-18, 10:20 AM
Basically a bunch of people thinking katanas should be better than they should be, just because they want them to.

Ormagoden
2010-06-18, 10:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc :smallsmile:

The video is filmed in a british guy's garage...

That should tell you something right there.

2xMachina
2010-06-18, 10:21 AM
Anyone ever made a Quickrazor IRL? Maybe we can rant about it too.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 10:21 AM
And the other problem with them is - people like me have to struggle not to correct the japanophiles, even when someone else is mock-quoting them xD.
Also, because sometimes we forget it's just a game :smallredface:

Ormagoden
2010-06-18, 10:22 AM
Whats the over under on the number of posts before this thread Actually turns into an argument?

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 10:24 AM
Whats the over under on the number of posts before this thread Actually turns into an argument?

Let's not go there xD That's an argument in itself, because we'll all claim we're not arguing :smallbiggrin:

Myth
2010-06-18, 10:26 AM
The video is filmed in a british guy's garage...

That should tell you something right there.Well you are not disproving his statements, all you are doing is bashing on a youtuber's filming location :smallbiggrin:

Here is some more food for thought, if you want to read: http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html and http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 10:29 AM
The guy in the video makes some good points, so I'll ask a different question. Where do all these myths come from? 'cos I believed it all for years (not sure where I heard it), until I spoke to a guy at Leeds Royal Armouries about it.

Myth
2010-06-18, 10:30 AM
Off Topic: I went to the Royal Armories in 2008, it was awesome :)

Spiryt
2010-06-18, 10:31 AM
The guy in the video makes some good points, so I'll ask a different question. Where do all these myths come from? 'cos I believed it all for years (not sure where I heard it), until I spoke to a guy at Leeds Royal Armouries about it.

Some nerds don't know much about fighting, physics, metallurgy, or generally don't know much at all, and are making some weird stuff up.

That's of course very basic description, but it fits.

onthetown
2010-06-18, 10:34 AM
Just what others have already said... People obsessed with Japan to the point of flipping out if you dare "insult" "their" culture by claiming that something from Japan is not as good as something from another country. Since Japan produces anime, manga, and computer-y things, it is clearly best.

Or something to that extent.

That snippet of the debate was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2010-06-18, 10:35 AM
Where do all these myths come from? 'cos I believed it all for years (not sure where I heard it), until I spoke to a guy at Leeds Royal Armouries about it.

Misunderstandings of the past that have made their way into the popular conciousness, usually by means of widespread literature. It is unfortunate, but ideas gain credibility by repetition. As the study of ancient and medieval arms and armour continues, we produce new theories and old ideas are discredited.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 10:36 AM
Misunderstandings of the past that have made their way into the popular conciousness, usually by means of widespread literature. It is unfortunate, but ideas gain credibility by repetition. As the study of ancient and medieval arms and armour continues, we produce new theories and old ideas are discredited.

Also, I guess, they do LOOK quite cool, if they're polished.

Spiryt
2010-06-18, 10:37 AM
Also, I guess, they do LOOK quite cool, if they're polished.

This is purely personal, I prefer the look of many other swords.

Though some katanas indeed look mighty nice.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 10:40 AM
Naginata always had something over the halberd, I felt.

Personally, my favourite medieval weapon is the bastard sword, mostly because I can actually USE them, whereas full two-handers tend to be too much for my wrists. (rephrase it somehow).

Ed: Ahem. Sorry, didn't realise how that sounded until I posted.

Dienekes
2010-06-18, 10:45 AM
The guy in the video makes some good points, so I'll ask a different question. Where do all these myths come from? 'cos I believed it all for years (not sure where I heard it), until I spoke to a guy at Leeds Royal Armouries about it.

My personal opinion without any backing at all?

Katana's look pretty and definitely different from more Western blade, so to the average viewer it is not too much a stretch that the katana would behave radically different than a western blade. Coupled with the fact the katana lasted longer into the modern world than blades did, it isn't too much of a stretch that they were some way superior, say sharper. Then looking at Western armors you see them uncased in metal so you'd automatically think they're slow as opposed to robed samurai and ninjas, so the katana must be faster.

Add onto all of that anime and Kill Bill, and you can definitely see where the katana being the pinnacle of swordsmanship comes about.

Dogmantra
2010-06-18, 10:48 AM
Where do all these myths come from?

It's the same reason that in 700 years, everyone will be on about how Dettol was the best cleaning fluid and anyone who disagrees is wrong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J48Hy3p3Bm0)

It's advertising. Of course you're going to say katanas could cut through solid steel if you make them.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 10:49 AM
My personal opinion without any backing at all?

...the katana lasted longer into the modern world than blades did...

Add onto all of that anime and Kill Bill, and you can definitely see where the katana being the pinnacle of swordsmanship comes about.

I think these are good thoughts. Their endurance makes a difference. Kill Bill didn't help. And then there's lamellar armour, which is made out of strips of wood. I think people might have thought "they had wooden armour to stop arrows. Clearly as they didn't bother with metal armour, something must have been able to get through it. I know! Katanas!"
Assuming you know that much already...

balistafreak
2010-06-18, 10:54 AM
Maybe I take an overly simple mindset to combat, but I personally think that a man's just as dead if you cut him open with a katana as a bastard sword as a credit card if you stuck him with a rapier as a spear as a harpoon if you bashed in his head with a mace as a nightstick as an umbrella (wait a minute...).

It's how you use it, not what you use, that counts most. (Although I do wish you good luck on killing someone with a balloon sword.)

Tangent: As for the Naginata, it's basically the "best" of a katana and polearm, in terms of aesthetics. If I recall correctly though it lacks any capacity as a reached bludgeoning weapon unlike smashing someone with the admittedly larger halberd, but then again Japan didn't have European-style full plate, so yeah, saved weight.

/tangent

Greenish
2010-06-18, 10:55 AM
Anyone ever made a Quickrazor IRL? Maybe we can rant about it too.How would quickrazors even work? What would they look like? What sort of handle is good for fast pull, cut & sheathe, but too clumsy to be used normally?

Naginata always had something over the halberd, I felt.I like halberds, personally: http://www.pennwellblogs.com/mae/uploaded_images/Halberd-763376.jpg
Kilts + halberds = brilliance.

Katanas do look cool, but so do many other swords. Here's a pretty one:http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword/armoredls1.jpg

[Edit]:
(Although I do wish you good luck on killing someone with a balloon sword.)Greater Insightful Strike.

Spiryt
2010-06-18, 10:58 AM
Tangent: As for the Naginata, it's basically the "best" of a katana and polearm, in terms of aesthetics. If I recall correctly though it lacks any capacity as a reached bludgeoning weapon unlike smashing someone with the admittedly larger halberd, but then again Japan didn't have European-style full plate, so yeah, saved weight.

/tangent

It really doesn't work that way...
Japanese had some plenty of heavy metal armors, and more weight =/= automatically better against armor.

And of course, naginata is very much like glaive, and has not much common with halberd at all.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-18, 11:03 AM
It really doesn't work that way...
Japanese had some plenty of heavy metal armors, and more weight =/= automatically better against armor.

And of course, naginata is very much like glaive, and has not much common with halberd at all.

Except being a polearm, which was about as far as my brain bothered to go :smallsmile:

Flickerdart
2010-06-18, 11:07 AM
Wasn't the reason katanas were folded many times that Japanese steel was terrible quality compared to European steel? That's what I've heard, anyway.

Dogmantra
2010-06-18, 11:09 AM
Wasn't the reason katanas were folded many times that Japanese steel was terrible quality compared to European steel? That's what I've heard, anyway.
I've heard that too, but then I've also heard that "katanas slice other swords in half" from many people.

Spiryt
2010-06-18, 11:09 AM
Wasn't the reason katanas were folded many times that Japanese steel was terrible quality compared to European steel? That's what I've heard, anyway.

Yes, that was the way to actually make something desirable out of sand ores that produced bits of steel of very varied quality.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-18, 11:10 AM
How would quickrazors even work? What would they look like? What sort of handle is good for fast pull, cut & sheathe, but too clumsy to be used normally?

Quickrazors are wielded with your fingers, so I'd assuming a very short handle.

Yora
2010-06-18, 11:11 AM
Katana steel isn't actually folded THAT much. To get 1 million layers you need to fold the block only 20 times.

Megaduck
2010-06-18, 11:14 AM
The guy in the video makes some good points, so I'll ask a different question. Where do all these myths come from? 'cos I believed it all for years (not sure where I heard it), until I spoke to a guy at Leeds Royal Armouries about it.

Probably because at the time European and Japanese culture really started to interact, Japanese swordsmenship really was superior to the European ones at the time.

European sword play was in a decline because swords hadn't been used a primary weapon of war for at least a hundred years since the gun had started to supplant it.

Therefor, the Japanese got reputations for being really good swordsmen and that they had good swords.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 11:15 AM
It likely is true that the average katana was massively superior to the average European sword, but this is a misleading statement.

Iron, being rare and difficult to work with in Japan, was reserved only for master smiths, and no katana was ever made without poring days worth of precise craftsmanship into it. Basically, every katana that got made was a masterpiece, because iron was too damn rare and difficult to bother making a shoddy sword.

Europe, in comparison, had lots of quality iron. It was expensive, by peasant standards, but the lord could afford to have several thousand crap swords churned out by smiths and their apprentices, to arm his infantry. Thus, where Japan only made the very best swords they could, Europe had a lot of cheap swords hanging around, bringing their average down.

If you compare the very best swords from Japan and Europe, as opposed to the average, I believe Europe comes out well ahead due to the greater quantities and higher qualities of the iron that they had. This not only meant the stuff was better, it also meant that smiths could get a lot more practice working with it, meaning they would often know it better than the Japanese smiths.

But I must reiterate - this is all merely my understanding, which has been glossed from things like Wikipedia, Mythbusters, and following discussions and arguments similar to this here and on other boards.

Kaulesh
2010-06-18, 11:24 AM
I've heard that too, but then I've also heard that "katanas slice other swords in half" from many people.

Mythbusters tried it. I don't know if they did katana vs. katana or katana vs. European sword.

Either way, the cheap knockoffs all chipped and shattered while the blades created using the original methods just bounced off of each other IIRC.

Dienekes
2010-06-18, 11:26 AM
Mythbusters did a katana episode?

I must watch.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-06-18, 11:28 AM
Mythbusters tried it. I don't know if they did katana vs. katana or katana vs. European sword.

If I remember correctly, they did both.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-18, 11:29 AM
A good sword swing can damage another sword - but you're going to damage your sword, too, and he can still cut and/or stab you with his sword anyway.

Spiryt
2010-06-18, 11:30 AM
Probably because at the time European and Japanese culture really started to interact, Japanese swordsmenship really was superior to the European ones at the time.

European sword play was in a decline because swords hadn't been used a primary weapon of war for at least a hundred years since the gun had started to supplant it.

Therefor, the Japanese got reputations for being really good swordsmen and that they had good swords.

Actually, swordmanship was pretty OK in Europe up to about ~1800, and the only rumors about "cross " duels are some sailor with rapier defeating some samurai in duel. People up to 20 cetury were dueling with sabers, smallswords and similar stuff.

At the same time after about 1700, japansese swords are slowly turning into prestige, symbolic stuff, and samurai class was changing/becoming history whatever damn Tom Cruise has to say. :smalltongue:

So in short, It wasn't really the case.

tyckspoon
2010-06-18, 11:31 AM
Mythbusters tried it. I don't know if they did katana vs. katana or katana vs. European sword.

Either way, the cheap knockoffs all chipped and shattered while the blades created using the original methods just bounced off of each other IIRC.

Everything vs. Everything, as is the way of Mythbusters. I know they did it with a katana, a fairly hefty European-style sword, and a thinner rapier/dueling-sword type at least. It wasn't specifically about the katana myth, 'tho; IIRC, it was part of their movie myths specials regarding those scenes where the hero dramatically shows up and cuts the villain's sword in half to save the hostage that has the point at her throat.

The result was that you can't cut a decent quality sword, although you can chip the crap out of the edge, and if you hit a thin/stiff/brittle enough sword hard enough you can *snap* it- they've got a nice high-speed film of the rapier-style sword cracking off near its hilt (which was about a foot away from where they actually hit the sword- still didn't actually cut it.)

Umael
2010-06-18, 11:37 AM
It really doesn't work that way...
Japanese had some plenty of heavy metal armors, and more weight =/= automatically better against armor.

*blink*

They did?

My understanding is that good iron was rare, to be used mostly to make weapons (and why the katana was so good on average of a weapon - because they had so little iron, they HAD to make better use of it).

On a personal obversation, I believe that the curve of the katana makes it better for cutting (not necessarily cutting through something, just... cutting... like not getting caught in bones or anything... although it might be better for cutting through). On the other hand... the curve makes wielding the katana really awkward for me. I prefer a broadsword or rapier any day.

Spiryt
2010-06-18, 11:42 AM
*blink*

They did?

My understanding is that good iron was rare, to be used mostly to make weapons (and why the katana was so good on average of a weapon - because they had so little iron, they HAD to make better use of it).



Evolution of Japanese armour (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_jpn_armour.html)

Running around i clothes when people have spears and swords, and shield is generally not used is bad idea.

Matthew
2010-06-18, 11:43 AM
My understanding is that good iron was rare, to be used mostly to make weapons (and why the katana was so good on average of a weapon - because they had so little iron, they HAD to make better use of it).

My understanding is that it was because the iron quality was bad, rather than because it was rare, they had to fold the blade so many times. Whether they had a lot of iron available for armour, I cannot speak to, but I did hear that they used more iron armour in earlier centuries than later.



On a personal obversation, I believe that the curve of the katana makes it better for cutting (not necessarily cutting through something, just... cutting... like not getting caught in bones or anything... although it might be better for cutting through). On the other hand... the curve makes wielding the katana really awkward for me. I prefer a broadsword or rapier any day.

The curve does likely make it better at cutting, how much better is another question. :smallbiggrin:

Umael
2010-06-18, 11:45 AM
Evolution of Japanese armour (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_jpn_armour.html)

Running around i clothes when people have spears and swords, and shield is generally not used is bad idea.

(Can't access it at work - will have to try again later. Also - wasn't thinking clothing. Lamellar is made mostly of wood, after all.)

ashmanonar
2010-06-18, 11:47 AM
Since I haven't been around the gaming scene long enough to witness the "katana debacle" which I've heard about. Apparently, in the old wotc forums, it got so bad that they had to ban katana threads for a good while? So what was the big problem? Does anyone have a link to one of these?

Nooo!

You must not read from the book!

http://www.smooth-on.com/images/gallery/185/IMAG0007.JPG

Roland St. Jude
2010-06-18, 11:47 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't restart old flamewars here - not even the classics.