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AtwasAwamps
2010-06-18, 10:26 AM
So, I recently had an idea that is both wonderful and terrible and I’d like some help with it!

I’d like to put together a gish build that utilizes its familiar as a flying mount, going for the Hippogriff Improved Familiar option from Complete Warrior. I’m trying to think of effective ways to have this build ready to go by say, level 10.

In my mind, the build will use the flying mount, coupled with a lance and the Mounted Combat chain (Mounted Combat/Rideby Attack/Spirited Charge) to finish off opponents, initially focusing on battlefield control and mobility until charging is safe/ideal. I think it would be a fun character to have running around.

Build Ideas:

1 – The weakest option, but most straightforward, would be to start with Battle Sorceror and go into abjurant champion from there. But bleah…battle sorc remains weak, even in this build, and this gives me extremely limited options after Abjurant Champion, since I would still only have proficiency in one martial weapon. I could go into Swiftblade, but since my mount/familiar wouldn’t share my enhanced haste benefits and I wouldn’t be able to take advantage of all my PrC features, this option is unappealing to me. It’s only saving grace is that its simple.

2 – Duskblade base. This version would have the highest HD/BAB of any of the builds and thus might be very worthwhile, but the build strikes me as slightly awkward. Yes, there are abjuration spells on the DB list, but none of them synchronize well with the Abjurant Champ’s class features. I’d like to soften that blow by taking either Arcane Disciple: Competition, which I believe would grant me Shield of Faith. Not the best thing in the world, but at least it would actually WORK with the class features of Abjurant Champion. The best thing to do would be to take Arcane Preparation if indeed it would allow me to prepare Luminous Armor. If I can take Luminous Armor, than this build looks like it would be the best option, as I’d get action to a few free quick-casts from both Duskblade and Abjurant Champion and my full martial weapon proficiency would grant me access to things like Spellsword. The issue here, of course, is that I’d completely lose the ability to “control a battlefield” since I’d be using a duskblade’s spell list and that’s sorely lacking in BFC. This would still be a powerful build, just nowhere near as versatile.

3 – Pally/Sorceror Base – I know, I know. Though shalt not lose caster levels. But the Pally/Sorc base is a popular one for gishing and I think this could work well. The two level dip in paladin gives me some nice class features and great saves, and sticking to sorc gives me great versatility. This build will be HURTING for skill points, but if take my first levels in Pally I can max ride early, maintain it, and then boost it till I hit more gishlike classes again. The downside here is that I lose two caster levels (which can be made up via feats) and that my familiar loses two levels effectively, which is sad.

4 – Wizard (conjurer or transmuter)/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage – My group is a bit scared of ToB and frankly, this build would probably cause them to have a nervous breakdown. But it’s up here as what I’m sure is the most effective build for a gish of this kind. White Raven + charge multipliers is always absolutely brutal and JPM gets great class features.

Any thoughts on which of these might work best? I’m liking option three the most, especially since a few pally wands for wand chambers on my gear would be most impressive.

Additional Questions: It’s my understanding that the Sorc/Wizard familiar class feature doesn’t scale when you start taking other arcane caster levels. If that’s the case, then that tacks on an extra feat for the sorc/wizard bases after I trade away my familiar for another interesting feature.

General Notes – Essential Feats
Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack

Good feats to take:
Arcane Strike (for sorc/DB bases…high spells per day plus multipliers on a charge)
Spirited Charge (extra multiplers = great!)
Power Attack (I AM charging, after all)
Headlong Rush (Might be VERY interesting…desert half-orc loses no charisma and half-orc pally substitution levels are very nice)


Am I missing anything obvious? Any reccomendation with which build to go with? I turn to you, playground, to help me make this build viable!

Pluto
2010-06-18, 10:39 AM
Are you stuck to RAW or can you modify skill/spell lists to model a concept?

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-18, 10:41 AM
Are you stuck to RAW or can you modify skill/spell lists to model a concept?

I PREFER to stick to RAW when working out build concepts. Even if it can be clumsy, it's the best way to create a legitimate character build that could work in most games.

Pluto
2010-06-18, 10:44 AM
All right. I asked because Battle Sorcerer is less ****ty than it's made out to be (it has better casting, a better familiar and more free feats than the ever-popular Sorcadin), but without the ride skill, it probably isn't even an option.


Regardless, anything involving Wizard is sure to be your strongest bet, so I'd go with the Jade Phoenix Mage, or one of any {Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2} sorts of builds.

Ernir
2010-06-18, 10:48 AM
Any racial preferences?

I'd go with a Wizard build, you are proposing something seriously feat-intensive. In particular, this Wizard variant here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) could serve you well.

If your group is scared of ToB, there really is nothing wrong with a ToBless Wizard/Spellsword/Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom!)/Abjurant Champion build.

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-18, 10:50 AM
Alright. I only asked because Battle Sorcerer is less ****ty than it's made out to be on these and other forums (it has better casting, a better familiar and more free feats than the ever-popular Sorcadin), but without the ride skill, it probably isn't even an option.

Regardless, anything involving Wizard is sure to be your best bet, so I'd go with the Jade Phoenix Mage.

Agreed, but I do need some way of getting ride up there. And yes, it does have better XYZ than the Sorcadin and the casting in light armor is nice, but the Sorcadin would suit my purposes more, especially after finishing up Abjurant Champion.

And yeah, I know Wiz/War/JPM is probably my best bet. I couldn't utilize arcane strike, but I really wouldn't need to.

EDIT: Forgot about the fighter feat wizard. Now THAT could be interesting...

DaTedinator
2010-06-18, 11:29 AM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031209a) is probably a good prestige class to keep in mind, as the prereqs are easy, and just taking the first level is a solid choice (turns all your cross-class Ride ranks into real Ride ranks). While it technically requires Wild Cohort, its companion class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a) lets you ignore that if you have an animal companion or special mount, and any reasonable DM would let you ignore it if you have a familiar you're riding.

Another_Poet
2010-06-18, 11:42 AM
but without the ride skill, it probably isn't even an option.

I dunno. A good dex and a military saddle and you should be fine buying it cross-class. Sure it burns through your skill points but in the end most of the Ride checks you have to make are DC 5 or 10. Sure taking Cover is DC 15 but if you're doing that as a mounted charger you are probably doing something wrong.

In the end it probably doesn't make Battle Sorcerer any better but I would say its lack of Ride is not a mark against it. You just don't need that many ranks to do what you want to do, and you're starting your build at ECL 10 so you'll easily make your checks even cross-class.

Also, listen to Ernir, minus Eldritch Kt if possible.

ap

edit: is there any way to get a Hippogriff as an animal companion instead of familiar? Druid could do well here. If not Hippogriff, surely there is some other flying mount available as AC?

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-18, 12:06 PM
I dunno. A good dex and a military saddle and you should be fine buying it cross-class. Sure it burns through your skill points but in the end most of the Ride checks you have to make are DC 5 or 10. Sure taking Cover is DC 15 but if you're doing that as a mounted charger you are probably doing something wrong.

In the end it probably doesn't make Battle Sorcerer any better but I would say its lack of Ride is not a mark against it. You just don't need that many ranks to do what you want to do, and you're starting your build at ECL 10 so you'll easily make your checks even cross-class.

Also, listen to Ernir, minus Eldritch Kt if possible.

ap

edit: is there any way to get a Hippogriff as an animal companion instead of familiar? Druid could do well here. If not Hippogriff, surely there is some other flying mount available as AC?

If the mount is my familiar, I'd like to have my ride check as high as possible to avoid it, you know, dying horribly and costing me exp. That's mostly why I want a decent ride check.

Also, it is extremely easy to get a flying mount via animal companion, but that's not what I'm looking for. I really want an arcane gish using his familiar as a flying mount.

There are SIGNIFICANT differences between a familiar and an animal companion, so I wouldn't count on a DM letting me into a class that allows progression of an animal companion with a familiar. It's blurring the line too much. I know I probably wouldn't allow it and I'm fairly loose on class requirements if it makes sense.

I'll look into the fighter feat wizard to abjurant champion build, but my first question is where am I getting the martial weapon proficiencies? I'd prefer to..avoid elf. I don't like the race.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-18, 12:12 PM
Has anyone mentioned Knight Phantom yet? It's basically a custom built mounted Gish. It's an Eldritch Knight with class features. Pretty good ones at that!

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-18, 12:13 PM
Has anyone mentioned Knight Phantom yet? It's basically a custom built mounted Gish. It's an Eldritch Knight with class features. Pretty good ones at that!

I believe Enrir did. What book is it from?

Caphi
2010-06-18, 12:15 PM
Competition domain, or at least the one I have here in my CD, doesn't actually give shield of faith. It does give divine power and righteous might, though the latter may not be great if you can't wrangle some kind of Share Spells effect.

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-18, 12:16 PM
Competition domain, or at least the one I have here in my CD, doesn't actually give shield of faith. It does give divine power and righteous might, though the latter may not be great if you can't wrangle some kind of Share Spells effect.

Well, one of them does. I don't remember which. Hrmm...

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-18, 12:20 PM
It's from Five Nations, but I believe you can find it exerpted online. Let me try to find it.

EDIT: Here it is. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)

You can get in with strait bard, too, which I find interesting and amusing.

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-19, 05:06 AM
It's from Five Nations, but I believe you can find it exerpted online. Let me try to find it.

EDIT: Here it is. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)

You can get in with strait bard, too, which I find interesting and amusing.

It requires proficiency in all martial weapons, which I know the basic bard doesn't have...unless I'm very wrong.

The "all martial weapon proficiency" thing is the big "ouch" in this build from my point of view. I don't think Abjurant Champ grants you any proficiencies either...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-19, 05:34 AM
You could go with a Suel Arcanamach build instead, which typically looks like (Fighter BAB classes) 6/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ (Fighter BAB classes) 5. Include at least two Duskblade levels for class skills and Combat Casting, and spend a feat on Obtain Familiar which will actually make your Duskblade and SA levels stack for your familiar's benefits. Other good levels to take before gaining SA would include Paladin 2, Crusader or Warblade 2, and Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2. For a level 10 build I'd probably go Duskblade 4/ Paladin 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4, aiming to gain Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, and maybe finish out with more Duskblade or pick up Crusader or Warblade. You could even use the Harmonious Knight (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution level for Paladin and get Song of the White Raven if including Crusader or Warblade, but the build could get extremely feat-intensive if you try to do too much with it.

Brock Samson
2010-06-19, 11:26 AM
Don't forget to take the spell Heroics, 2nd level sorc/wizard spell in the spell compendium. Just in case you can't fit in all the mounted combat feats, this can help you out a lot. Good duration too, plus extend it.