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The Red Geist
2010-06-18, 11:36 AM
Hello again, Giant in the Playground Forum-people. Quite a while ago I posted a topic about an RP Heavy Barbarian and received some great assistance in crafting the character. Sadly the game dwindled out before I got the chance to explore the build, but I'm coming back to you lot in the hopes of some further assistance.

My DM, same guy as last time, is running another campaign, this time at level 7. He's said we're free to play any classes we like. Normally I go for the hands-on warrior type, but I figured since I have the opportunity I'll try out a caster. The DM is open to most classes as long as I can cite a book.

I'm planning for a human (because I'm boring) but I don't have enough knowledge of casting classes and their Prestige's to make this interesting. Any recommendations for a newbie?

Ernir
2010-06-18, 11:40 AM
Do you have any ideas on the character concept yet? Do you want your mage to be sneaky, blasty, diviner-y, or casts-spells-but-still-knows-how-to-use-a-sharp-stick-y?

Frog Dragon
2010-06-18, 11:41 AM
I'd recommend one of those fixed list casters. As in, Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2), or Warmage (Complete Arcane). I have to warn though that the Warmage is one of the weakest casters printed (without counting stuff like the truenamer) if you don't use Rainbow Servant shenanigans (which you shouldn't). My personal favourite is the Beguiler, but all are in the tier 3-4 category and should work in most parties.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-18, 11:42 AM
I'm planning for a human (because I'm boring) but I don't have enough knowledge of casting classes and their Prestige's to make this interesting. Any recommendations for a newbie?For a first-time caster, you probably want a Sorcerer. Simple yet effective. Make sure to poke around the 'net for a reasonable spell selection - don't want to get stuck with poor spells.

Doc Roc
2010-06-18, 12:10 PM
Am I allowed to link this? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) It should be okay, I don't see any ToS violations...

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 12:15 PM
Personally, I don't think Sorcerer is a good idea unless your DM agrees to allow you to retrain spells more often than you can by default (1 every 2 levels is incredibly harsh), just because for someone new to casting, selecting poor spells known sucks. Wizards are "harder" in that preparing spells is a difficult thing to do, but much more forgiving in that you get a new chance to do so every day.

I'm going to give my +1 to the Beguiler. The Warlock or Dragonfire Adept aren't bad choices (at all) either, but they're not really spellcasters and aren't going to teach you about spell use.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-18, 12:18 PM
I would advise against anything that has to pick their spells known and has no way of getting more - no Sorcerers, Bards or Psionic classes that aren't Erudites.

So, pick a full-list spontaneous type, or a prepared divine caster. Maybe a Wizard but they take a lot of bookkeeping...

Rixx
2010-06-18, 12:24 PM
I would, on the other hand, totally endorse a spontaneous spellcaster like a Sorcerer. It's a great way to transition from a warrior to a prepared caster - you have a fixed arsenal, but instead of an arsenal of weapons, it's an arsenal of spells. And you don't have to prepare them!

Plus, having a limited selection encourages creativity.

AmberVael
2010-06-18, 12:27 PM
I'd recommend one of those fixed list casters. As in, Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2), or Warmage (Complete Arcane). I have to warn though that the Warmage is one of the weakest casters printed (without counting stuff like the truenamer) if you don't use Rainbow Servant shenanigans (which you shouldn't). My personal favourite is the Beguiler, but all are in the tier 3-4 category and should work in most parties.

I second this. I'd probably recommend Beguiler specifically, but that's just because I really like their skills.

In general, one of these classes is going to be a lot better to try out at first as opposed to a Sorcerer or Wizard.

Frosty
2010-06-18, 12:29 PM
+1 for Beguiler. High tier 3/low tier 2 depending on the cheese you pull. You can't mess it up, and there's no PrCing required at all to make one awesome. In fact, taking more than one PrC level for a beguiler is considered bad in most builds, and that one level dip is to get Telepathy and to delay advanced learning.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-06-18, 12:36 PM
Ill put a vote in for Duskblades, That will still allow you to be somewhat effective in your love of smacking people around as well as having some arcane floating around there too. Check out the Duskblade Handbook for which spells to pick which honestly...there isn't a whole heck of a lot to choose from.

Il_Vec
2010-06-18, 01:04 PM
If you really are always in for the warrior-types, I'd suggest starting with a gish(warrior-mage) and later on taking the role of arcanist.
I am currently planning to bring to my game table a neraph Wizard /Knight Phantom (Eberron Five Nations)/Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage).

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 01:19 PM
Ok, spellcasting for newbies.

Spellcasting's true power isn't damage, but control and foresight.
Spellcasting of top-notch power demands planning worth of that int 18 wizards like to start with.


If you don't want to jump straight to wizards and sorcerers (it's really a lot of micromanagement and some out of box thinking), then fixed list casters are good ideas. Beguilers and Warmagi are good starts. Warmagi are kinda paradoxal because their spells consist basically of exploding stuff and buffing stuff. But both classes are of relatively simple spellcasting and as such good to get started.

The Vancian system (spell slots, memorizing spells to shoot and forget them until the other day) is crunchy. My personal recommendation if you don't want Vancian is Psionic.Psionic spellcasting is simpler to keep track because all spells take from the same pool (think mana), and they scale in a connected manner.

A fair start would be a Psychic Warrior, whose spells are more focused on buffing and debuffing. A full psionic caster would be the Psion, analog to wizards.

Scorpina
2010-06-18, 01:21 PM
Cleric is pretty easy since, aside from Domains, you don't have to select any spells (as you have to with Wizard, Bard and Sorcerer), so you can experiment by preparing different spells each day until you find out which ones you're going to want to make the cornerstones of your repetoir.

Optimystik
2010-06-18, 01:31 PM
I would go with a Shugenja - they have a lot of the advantages of the sorcerer, and more - plus, they are very newbie-friendly.

- d6 HD (instead of d4)
- 4 + Int skills (instead of 2 + Int)
- Cha-focused (SAD) like sorcs
- Diplomacy instead of Bluff (be the party face)
- Divine spells - no ASF
- Smaller list, but well-rounded, so you won't be paralyzed with choice
- Can blast, buff, and heal equally well even at low levels
- Proficient with a martial weapon (short sword)
- You get an extra spell known at each level (thanks to your domain order)
- No ASF (they cast divine spells - you still lack armor proficiency though)

Their list gets significantly better if you follow Spell Compendium's recommendation of giving them every thematically appropriate spell to choose from as well; but even without that, they are quite playable.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 01:39 PM
The Shugenja is very weak and has very little in the way of support; I don't agree with that choice at all. Plus I think being "like the Sorcerer" is bad for a new player.

gallagher
2010-06-18, 01:51 PM
I say go for a spellthief 1/duskblade 5/unseen seer 1. Prepare touch attacks, gain flanking, steal spells, hit things. With a second spellthief level you can also steal other peoples buffs

Keld Denar
2010-06-18, 02:02 PM
The advantage that the OP has in the case of a sorcerer is that WE can help him plan his spell list. Having a fixed spell list isn't a bad thing when you have a whole forum full of people willing to help him pack that limited list as full of awesome as he can handle without spontaneously exploding from delight.

Lets see....a 7th level sorcerer trying to cover the bases

3rd
Haste
Stinking Cloud

2nd
Glitterdust
Web
Invisibility

1st
Mage Armor
Grease
Benign Transposition (SpC)
Lesser Orb of Acid (SpC)
Ray of Enfeeblement

I can't get to the SRD atm to check sorcerer's spells known, but that should be pretty decent for a 7th level caster. Got most of the bases covered. Fort save, Ref save, Will save, Touch w/ no save, and party buff, even a couple that are SR:No. Most of its even core!

There, a decent list for low thought required spontaneous arcane caster. If he ends up leveling up, he can always come back to us and ask for which 4th level spells he should be interested in (EBT and Enervation), etc.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 02:03 PM
Wow, Keld, you got a 7th level Sorcerer's Spells Known exactly right. You only didn't comment on the 8 Cantrips they're supposed to learn, but those aren't really important.

Keld Denar
2010-06-18, 02:09 PM
Hmmmm, maybe its time to admit I have a problem...

0th
Sonic Snap
Mending
Light
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Caltrops
Resistance
Prestidigitation

Done and done.

Optimystik
2010-06-18, 02:45 PM
The Shugenja is very weak and has very little in the way of support; I don't agree with that choice at all. Plus I think being "like the Sorcerer" is bad for a new player.

It is weak compared to other full casters. I'd still put it at about Tier 3, which is a fine place for a class to end up. Certainly it is ahead of Warmage.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-18, 02:56 PM
Personally, I don't think Sorcerer is a good idea unless your DM agrees to allow you to retrain spells more often than you can by default (1 every 2 levels is incredibly harsh), just because for someone new to casting, selecting poor spells known sucks. Wizards are "harder" in that preparing spells is a difficult thing to do, but much more forgiving in that you get a new chance to do so every day.


Which is why I added the caveat of shopping for a good spell list on the net before finalizing the character. Keld Denar's list seems pretty solid.

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-18, 03:10 PM
the 8 Cantrips they're supposed to learn, but those aren't really important.

:*(

Cantrips need love too!

Maho-Tsukai
2010-06-18, 03:35 PM
I vote for a sorcerer or cleric, but espcially the cleric. A sorcerer is a bit easier to play then a wizard but at the same time can be far more unforgiving if you chose the wrong spells. My first Arcanist was a sorcerer and I played him in a manner that was anything but optimal.(He was a "necro sorc" who specalized in blasting people with negative energy and save or die(and not enveration and such. More like finger of death or wail of the banshie kind of save or die.) spells while standing behind an army of undead. He had little battlefield control(Though I think he had evard's black tentacles) and actually had fireball on his spell list....yeah...fireball...I just laugh at myself when I look back at the 3.0 days, when I was just...yeah...I'm still not a great optimizer, though, but I know enough where I realize how bad I was back then.)

However, with the right spells a sorcerer can be a great way to learn spellcasting and my sorcerer, even though he sucked by optimization standards still taught me important lessons, and also how not to play an arcane class.

However, my personal feeling is that the cleric is a great starting caster. Yes, he's a preparitor caster. Yes, he requires a fair bit of thought depending on what sourcebooks you use. However, if you ever want to learn to be a caster, your going to have to learn how to prepair spells and how to micromannage, and sometimes it's best to learn these things sooner then later, and the best way to learn is with a cleric. Why? Simply because clerics are far more forgiving then wizards if you screw up. You have heavy armor and more hit dice then a squishy wizard dose. You have other class abilites that can aid you, and you can spontainously cast heal spells(if good or netural). All of this means that your a lot better off if you mess up or make a mistake then you would be if you where a squishy wizard with d4s for HD with nothing but robes(and spells) to protect him. Your still more fragile then a deidcated melee character would be, but you have heals and all the wonderful divine spells to make up for that. Thus, I really feel that if you want to learn how to be a dedicated caster the best way is as a cleric, since you get to try your hand with preporation but still don't auto die if you mess something up.

Oh, and the fact you prefer poking people with sharp objects means you may like a cleric better then an arcane caster since with the right buffs a cleric can be very, very, very good at smashing people in the face with maces or whatever other simple weapon you like. Thats ALMOST like poking them with a sword.


Also, please ignore any bads grammar or spelling in this post. I am using a computer that lacks word and has no spell check function. Thank you.

Optimystik
2010-06-18, 03:42 PM
My problem with clerics is that at lower levels, they feel more like a gish than a true caster. Yes, the d8 and armor are beefy, but if you don't feel like wading in and swinging a mace you probably won't get a lot out of them early on, unless you're fighting undead.

Now a Druid - there's a great mix of blasty and buffy at all levels. Armor isn't an issue since you start at level 6 (Natural Spell, woo) and they lean more towards offensive magic than clerics do at that point in their career. Like their Warcraft counterparts, they're able to fill a wide variety of roles easily.

Os1ris09
2010-06-18, 03:47 PM
The advantage that the OP has in the case of a sorcerer is that WE can help him plan his spell list. Having a fixed spell list isn't a bad thing when you have a whole forum full of people willing to help him pack that limited list as full of awesome as he can handle without spontaneously exploding from delight.

I agree with sorcerer as well but honestly. Imo why not just have him play the scordian build? He is obviously comfortable with combat and hitting things and wants to try casting why not let him have this build and see what he thinks.

Here it is man and I personally enjoy it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2741325&postcount=7

jiriku
2010-06-18, 04:00 PM
+1 to duskblade or beguiler. Both of these classes are easy to pick and play. Both give you the opportunity to experiment with different spells, and are forgiving if you make the wrong choices (just cast a different spell next time). Both have a strong and enjoyable class theme going on that makes it easy to develop a distinct style.

Endarire
2010-06-18, 04:22 PM
DRUIDS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) are optimized out of the box! You can melee, blast, control crowds, heal, and summon, AND you have a spiffy animal companion who acts as another party member.

Natural Spell is all you need. Improved Initiative, Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning (Lost Empires of Faerun), and other Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) abilities.

WIZARDS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) are your best bet for arcane magic! If you like the notion of turning people into toads (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/BalefulPolymorph.htm), being invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm), teleporting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), summoning (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker), and being fragile yet awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards), snuggle up with Treantmonk (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) and Batman/LogicNinja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)!

CLERICS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) are self-contained gishes. A Cleric is potent because he knows EVERY spell he can cast, like a Druid. Clerics are spiffy because they're casters who also melee OR do archery OR desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) areas and make awesome necromancers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0).

Trying to be a pure caster as a Cleric will gimp you. I've already tried that. Instead, do something well besides casting. Look at the Cleric's Handbook for advice! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 04:23 PM
Personally, I like the Batman guide more than the GOD guide.

lsfreak
2010-06-18, 04:32 PM
Personally, I like the Batman guide more than the GOD guide.

I agree with TLN more often, though Treantmonk has very good points about single-target SoD's. Going through the spell list for both of them is very good, whether you're playing a wizard or a sorcerer. Also, a sorcerer handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0), should you choose to go that route. It's not as well-organized/formatted as the two wizard guides, but is good for a look-through as well.

Greenish
2010-06-18, 04:35 PM
Natural Spell is all you need. Improved Initiative, Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning (Lost Empires of Faerun), and other Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) abilities.I like Ashbound on the earlier levels to make your summons last the whole fight.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-06-18, 04:36 PM
Yeah, that is true. Clerics are not "pure casters" in the sense a wizard is. However, they are still a great way to learn how to deal with preporation and a wide range of spells. I already mentioned their gish-ness my my other post, and seeing as the OP prefers melee a cleric is a great class for him simply because of it's gish-ness. I usually play necromancer clerics, though, but have seen and used a more gish-cleric on several ocaions.(On NWN I actually use them a lot, one of them even took levels in blackguard. However, NWN ius quite different from pnp.) I have also used archer clerics, who are awesome. I prefer Cloistered Clerics for cleric archers, though, because the extra spells, domains and skills are very awesome and since archers won't be on the front line that much, they don't care that they lose some armor and combat ability for all the goodies a cloistered cleric gets.

Also, still on the no spellcheck computer, sorry.

The Red Geist
2010-06-18, 05:14 PM
Wow. Thanks for the quick responses, everyone! I would like to mention a handful of thoughts that I realize make a difference in suggestions: While my DM isn't all that concerned one way or another, I'm an RP heavy guy. Generally I build a background and story for the character without first thinking about a profession and then let their story pull me in a particular direction.

The character to which this topic concerns isn't completely developed, but I can't see him being a Cleric or a Druid. His pursuits in magic are more akin to a pushing his limits and seeing exactly how far he can go. Adventuring, fame, fortune, great deeds or villainous ones don't drive him. Taking a spells basic components and attempting to make them stronger just in order to see what would happen does.

I can picture a Wizard, but to be honest the necessary micromanagement worries me. A Sorcerer is another class I can see him in, I just don't know about the fluff behind them. I'm assuming a Beguiler is an illusionist of sorts which could be fun. That aside, I appreciate the suggestions. Now I just have to read through everything before I ask more questions. :p

Greenish
2010-06-18, 05:28 PM
The character to which this topic concerns isn't completely developed, but I can't see him being a Cleric or a Druid. His pursuits in magic are more akin to a pushing his limits and seeing exactly how far he can go. Adventuring, fame, fortune, great deeds or villainous ones don't drive him. Taking a spells basic components and attempting to make them stronger just in order to see what would happen does.Wizard would be quite a good fit. On the divine side, Archivist has a similar approach to magic. Of course, fluff is mutable.

Now, have you considered psionics?

Draz74
2010-06-18, 05:28 PM
0th
Sonic Snap
Mending
Light
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Caltrops
Resistance
Prestidigitation

In my experience, the second-most useful Cantrip (after Detect Magic) is Message. Yes, it's even better than Prestidigitation. Maybe.

lsfreak
2010-06-18, 05:31 PM
I can picture a Wizard, but to be honest the necessary micromanagement worries me. A Sorcerer is another class I can see him in, I just don't know about the fluff behind them. I'm assuming a Beguiler is an illusionist of sorts which could be fun. That aside, I appreciate the suggestions. Now I just have to read through everything before I ask more questions. :p

The first thing is: fluff doesn't matter. It's mutable. You can play up some kind of draconic origin to the spellcasting (the books tend to do this), or it can be a seemingly-random thing, or it could be that sorcerers are blessed by the gods, or it could be something else entirely.

The tinkering with magic always seems like a sorcerer-ish thing to do - you have direct control over it, unlike a wizard. A sorcerer building up metamagic feats and taking either the ACF in PHB2 or the Rapid Metamagic feat in Complete Mage can be very fun.

balistafreak
2010-06-18, 07:44 PM
In my experience, the second-most useful Cantrip (after Detect Magic) is Message. Yes, it's even better than Prestidigitation. Maybe.

Throw in stick and launch bolt in there. They're both definitely better than resistance, at any rate.

Seriously, if you can't think of the applications of sticking any (light) object to a surface, you're doing it wrong. (My best story is a kick-me sign... written in explosive runes. :smallbiggrin:)

As for launch bolt, you can launch any object about the size/weight of a crossbow bolt/arrow/whatever, right? Think of the applications of that!

Also, just here to note that sonic snap is a great metamagic seed, for one reason: Fell Drain metamagic feat. This results in a 2nd level spell that guarantees a slapped-on negative level. Hooooooo boy this has its applications.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 07:48 PM
As for launch bolt, you can launch any object about the size/weight of a crossbow bolt/arrow/whatever, right? Think of the applications of that!

First thing that comes to mind is the Duke's fork. Second is a lit smokestick.

AmberVael
2010-06-18, 07:49 PM
I can picture a Wizard, but to be honest the necessary micromanagement worries me. A Sorcerer is another class I can see him in, I just don't know about the fluff behind them. I'm assuming a Beguiler is an illusionist of sorts which could be fun. That aside, I appreciate the suggestions. Now I just have to read through everything before I ask more questions. :p

Well, I can tell you that Beguiler is a really fun class for social characters- so if you're into roleplaying social intrigue and interaction, Beguiler will rock. They focus on Enchantment//Illusion, and have tons of skill points and social skills- together, it makes them pretty awesome.

In terms of dabbling and experimenting like you said though, I would imagine Wizard is more the way to go. The mechanics of Beguiler don't necessarily lend themselves well to a character who researches, tries new things, and pushes the boundaries of magic itself- they don't really have all that many options for gaining lots of new spells or creating items and stuff. That's the kind of thing a Wizard is good at.

Greenish
2010-06-18, 07:50 PM
As for launch bolt, you can launch any object about the size/weight of a crossbow bolt/arrow/whatever, right? Think of the applications of that!No, you'll have to launch a crossbow bolt that costs 1 sp.

Launch Object is what you're thinking.

balistafreak
2010-06-18, 08:03 PM
No, you'll have to launch a crossbow bolt that costs 1 sp.

Launch Object is what you're thinking.

Drat. However, I can't find any such spell with my google-fu. Perhaps it has a different name?

Launch object should totally be a cantrip, though.

Greenish
2010-06-18, 08:05 PM
Drat. However, I can't find any such spell with my google-fu. Perhaps it has a different name?Sounds likely. I'm quite sure I've seen the analogue though…

[Edit]: Ah, my memory played tricks on me. Launch Item is a 1st level spell from Magic of Faerūn.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 08:11 PM
Launch Item is a 1st level spell from Magic of Faerūn.
Reprinted in Spell Compendium as a cantrip, though. Officially, it's a cantrip.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-18, 08:23 PM
Personally, I like the Batman guide more than the GOD guide.

I found the GOD guide more useful due to its later printed date and multiple links to other guides within it. Both are certainly useful, however.

Endarire
2010-06-19, 12:53 AM
Don't worry about a Wizard's micromanagement. Follow the guides' advice and you'll be set.

Most likely, you'll use a similar spell set each day, or a spell set for "buffing," "adventuring," and "downtime."

The Red Geist
2010-06-19, 07:49 PM
In terms of dabbling and experimenting like you said though, I would imagine Wizard is more the way to go.

I'm beginning to think the same way as well. There's a bit of literature to get through no matter how I look at it but I appreciate you all helping me wrap my head around some of the casting classes. Now to finish Khaim's (he has a name now!) background stuff.


Don't worry about a Wizard's micromanagement. Follow the guides' advice and you'll be set.

Most likely, you'll use a similar spell set each day, or a spell set for "buffing," "adventuring," and "downtime."

Gotcha. For now I'll read the guides so I don't end up screwing up my spell list and all that.

I did have another question though (as I read through the PH), are the only familiars available listed in this book, or are there other ones?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-19, 08:14 PM
I did have another question though (as I read through the PH), are the only familiars available listed in this book, or are there other ones?

There are more familiar choicies in the environment books and maybe in some dragon magazine, though I recomend ditch your familiar for an ACF (abrupt jaunt for specialist conjurerer is a favorite of mine) and then get your familiar back throught the feat aptly named obtain familiar (CArcane or CMage don't remember exactly) and it makes your familiar abilities dependent on your CL instead of your wizard or sorcerer level.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 08:50 PM
it makes your familiar abilities dependent on your CL instead of your wizard or sorcerer level.I'm not quite sure, but isn't obtained familiar dependent on your arcane caster level instead of CL?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-19, 08:53 PM
I'm not quite sure, but isn't obtained familiar dependent on your arcane caster level instead of CL?

Caster Level. If I recall correctly it also lets you stack the class to which you associated this feat with all other familiar-granting classes for familiar powers.

The Red Geist
2010-06-20, 01:19 PM
Okay. I've perused through both Treantmonk and TLN's guides on creating a walking talking doom slinging spell caster, and the approaches are so different I really can't tell which one is more useful. There's honestly value in both as far as I can tell since they detail different points of significance and uses for various subjects, however some of it is hard to wrap my head around without understanding the class of Wizard more. Some of what is discussed seems just plain confusing as well.

Specialization: From my understanding you select a school of magic to specialize in, give up two other schools and essentially gain numerous bonuses for doing so. Makes more sense then being a generalist which would give you a larger assortment of spells to cast but without all the gains of a specialist. Okay, sounds good. But for a first timer in the casting world, is going a specialized route the best option? Granted I'd be limiting the number of stupid spell selections I could make and increasing the versatility of a school of magic, but what determines the "right" magic school choice when you can't think of one that suits the character?

Familiars: Seems really useful given their ability to transfer touch spells and gain the same bonuses a caster puts on themselves, not to mention being sneaky little buggers who can spy (and maybe sap sentries). Also; a talking cat? Bonus! However if I was using a large amount of Ray spells then having a Ranged Touch feat would make more sense than throwing the familiar out in the middle of a fight. I think. Can't tell if its worthwhile to get one and deal with the possibility of it dying due to DM shenanigans or specialize in Conjuration for that Abrupt Jaunt thingy (which sounds so nice). Again, that loops back to my initial question of specialization.

Components: Anything that wouldn't fit in the component bag? I know not all spells require components, but for the ones that do is it common to have to purchase a ton of them since they wouldn't fit in the bag? I'll have to research spells more...

Darjeeling or Toasted Green Tea?: The idea of, "cast this, cast that, sit back and send off the meaty ones to kill things." just seems odd to me. Granted my experience in D&D is limited to a handful of games and I do get that wasting a spell to do some meager damage your Fighter could do without Power Attack is wasteful, but after throwing down some crowd control abilities (if they hit), is a caster really limited to kicking back and relaxing or taking pot shots with a crossbow?

Wait, both of those sound great. Why am I complaining?

[This will be edited as more questions come to mind. I apologize for my very wet-behind-the-ears questioning--I figure a lot of this information is common knowledge. Still, I'm looking for clarity and some explanations beyond the vague ones I find myself reading over in the PHB or the SRD. Thanks again for the help. Hopefully I'll have myself a nicely crafted Wizard once I understand what I'm looking at.]

lsfreak
2010-06-20, 02:53 PM
Specialization: Focused Specialist Conjurer is very good. Give up Enchantment (overlaps with illusion to some extent, and a lot of creatures are just plain immune), Evocation (much of it can be covered by Conjuration), and either Necromancy (a lot of things immune at high levels, but it's a good debuffer) or Abjuration (dispel magic from someone in the party is a necessity). Conjuration does pretty much everything, and the best spells of each level often come from Conjuration, not to mention there's just more spells in Conj than in most other schools (just look at the wziard spell list in SpC and compare the length of the Conj or Trans entries to all the others).

Familiars: They're good. I prefer a flying one of some kind, so that it can be elsewhere (like 200 feet behind you, hopefully blending in with the other animals). There's also ways of having it protected, though, like familiar pockets (probably in MIC... or is it a spell? I don't remember). They can share buffing spells with you, which makes them much better (start off the day with mage armor, for example), and polymorphing yourself and your familiar into a pair of 12-headed hydras is hilariously awesome. Imbue familiar with spell ability is great for having your familiar do counterspelling every round, or getting an extra buff in before combat starts.

Components: If the component doesn't have a cost listed along side it in the spell entry, and you have a spell component pouch, you have it. Period.

After buffing/debuffing: Be ready to do other things, in case something happens. Getting out your scythe and coup de gracing the guy that's paralyzed from zero Strength. Pulling a wand of fell draining acid splash if your allies are having a tough time with someone.

The Red Geist
2010-06-21, 06:40 PM
I don't think we'll be going much higher than level 10, if that. The first campaign will be outdoors (I've only been in Dungeon campaigns or in towns) so I'm a bit in the dark about what to expect. Somewhere in my gut I have a suspicious feeling that we may face a troll (have in the last three campaigns), so stocking a fire spell makes sense. Or maybe a fire wand.


There are more familiar choicies in the environment books and maybe in some dragon magazine, though I recomend ditch your familiar for an ACF (abrupt jaunt for specialist conjurerer is a favorite of mine) and then get your familiar back throught the feat aptly named obtain familiar (CArcane or CMage don't remember exactly) and it makes your familiar abilities dependent on your CL instead of your wizard or sorcerer level.

Now this is just cool. After reading what Abrupt Jaunt does, specializing in Conjurer is even more appealing. Thanks for the info!


Specialization: Focused Specialist Conjurer is very good. Give up Enchantment (overlaps with illusion to some extent, and a lot of creatures are just plain immune), Evocation (much of it can be covered by Conjuration), and either Necromancy (a lot of things immune at high levels, but it's a good debuffer) or Abjuration (dispel magic from someone in the party is a necessity).

To give up three schools seems like such a debilitating blow though. Since the last member of our party hasn't picked a class, I don't know whether to drop Necromancy or Abjuration--I like having the ability to drop an enemy's abilities with debuffs and I like the option to dispel negative effects on the party. Going Specialist wouldn't be so bad. Kind of stuck when it comes to making a decision here and bouncing between TLN and Treatmonk is only making it worse.

I like TLN's ideology as far as having open options in casting is concerned but its almost too diverse. Treatmonk provides an in depth definition of spells, casting and techniques, which is great, but the GOD guide holds an air of experience behind it that makes me wonder if I'd be able to pull it off. Manipulating spells, knowing which skills and bonus feats to pick--everything is laid out nicely in both but just kind of vague. Having the external links and ideas of which spells are good and bad from the GOD guide is great though.


Getting out your scythe and coup de gracing the guy that's paralyzed from zero Strength.

Wouldn't that get me negatives for attempting to wield a weapon I can't use? Although I don't think that matters much with a Coup de Grace.

I have the incomplete profile up on Mythweavers and I rolled like a champ. Too bad my dice never seem to work in my favor during a campaign. Haven't distributed skill points yet or picked feats though.
Khaim Vox Edo (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=217203)

sambo.
2010-06-21, 07:11 PM
+1 on a straight out Sorcerer. it's an awesome class to introduce yourself to casters with.

do some research on suggestions for spells known (some of the suggestions made already are pretty solid) and don't forget to load up on molotov cocktails, tanglefoot bags and other such mundane forms of damage/battlefield control.

Ilmryn
2010-06-21, 08:22 PM
It is weak compared to other full casters. I'd still put it at about Tier 3, which is a fine place for a class to end up. Certainly it is ahead of Warmage.

There isn't anything wrong with the warmage, as long as the campaign is mostly battle oriented. If the campaign is more RP oriented, a Beguiler is better due to skills and utility spells. With the right metamagic feats and the sudden feats gained as bonus, a warmage can do obscene amounts of damage.

You wont be able to do this until level 18, but its worth mentioning:
Twinned Suddenly empowered and maximized Moonbow(spell compendium): 1080 points of damage, assuming all attacks hit. Admittedly, a sorcerer/wizard can do this too, but warmage gets the feats easier.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 08:31 PM
There isn't anything wrong with the warmage, as long as the campaign is mostly battle oriented. If the campaign is more RP oriented, a Beguiler is better due to skills and utility spells. With the right metamagic feats and the sudden feats gained as bonus, a warmage can do obscene amounts of damage.

What I meant was that a Warmage is very niche, whereas Shugenja are more well-rounded. The ability to heal (both self and others) is also friendly to new players.

For a roleplay campaign, they are a Cha-based class with Diplomacy in-class, and can of course really play up the exotic foreigner angle. Not to mention they are pretty decent in the illusion department as well.

They may not get the sudden metamagic feats, but those are typically 1/day anyway - not quite as impactful as one would think.

Keld Denar
2010-06-21, 08:50 PM
Khaim Vox Edo (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=217203)

Hmmmmm, ok.

So...you are a Human Conjourer, banning Evocation and Enchantment
alternatively, Focused Specialist Conjourer banning Abjuration too.

1st Cloudy Conjouration (CMage)
H Spell Focus: Conjouration
Wiz Scribe Scroll
3 Fell Draining (Libris Mortis)
5 Sculpt Spell (CArcane)
6 Metamagic School Focus: Conjouration (CMage)

What this gives you:

3 per day, you can apply a combination of Sculpt Spell or Fell Draining for 1 less adjusted spell level than normal. That means you can sculpt a 4th level spell (like Evards or Solid Fog), and its still a 4th level spell, or you can apply Fell Draining on a lower level spell (like Acid Splash) and its still only a 1st level spell. Fell Draining is amazing for taking down Big Bad type foes, or anyone who casts spells.

Also, every time you cast a Conjouration, you get a free 10' x 10' fog cloud that auto sickens foes, no save. It also blocks LoS, so careful positioning of the cloud can keep archers from getting you down or similar situations. Its pretty good.

What do you think?

The Red Geist
2010-06-23, 08:12 PM
What do you think?

What do I think? I think you're my hero, Keld! Although I'll have to see if I can track down that Fell Draining spell since I don't have access to Libris Mortis. My DM is letting me take two flaws as well and I'm wondering if there are any other feats that you all would recommend (beyond the spell level slot increasing metamagic ones since those seem to add up quick).

That aside, I'm getting to work on the Spellbook now, but thanks for guiding me in the right direction.