Focused Diviner - Go Loremaster or Master Specialist?

[Defiant]

Greetings,

I am absolutely addicted to the "Focused Specialist" alternate class feature. It feels to me like it brings a wizard close to the spells per day of a sorcerer, while still maintaining a great deal of flexibility.

Now, granted, divination is a rather odd choice for becoming a focused specialist, and having 3 spell slots per spell level devoted only to the divination school of magic is a bit limiting, but I want to try it out, mainly as a roleplaying aspect. Divination is still useful, although more out-of-combat than not.

So taking for granted that the wizard in question is going as a Focused Diviner...

What would be the better choice, both mechanically and conceptually? The Loremaster prestige class or the Master Specialist prestige class? I know that you can take both, but you can only take one of them to the full 10 levels (which I'd like to because of the idea of Epic progression).

Mechanically, we can analyze the classes' benefits. For example, Loremaster will give you "analyze dweomer" pretty free at the end of its progression, while Master Specialist will give you "true seeing" pretty free at the end of its progression.

But how about fluff-wise? Which makes more sense for a diviner focused on knowledge? Becoming a master of lore and knowledge? Or becoming a... master... of knowledge and knowledge-spells?

I'd appreciate any input (as well as alternate suggestions, such as good feats to take as a focused diviner role, other possible prestige classes, etc.).

[jiriku]

I actually prefer the Divine Oracle PrC, from complete divine. It's trivially easy to qualify for, and the abilities are very useful for a divination-focused wizard, albeit nothing earth-shattering.

I have found the Insightful Divination feat to be especially useful at higher levels. Cast something like moment of prescience on yourself, and you have a very significant boost to initiative, with the option to convert to a very significant boost to saves. Both are extremely valuable in typical high-level play.

[Defiant]

Hmm, hadn't though of Divine Oracle. Too religiousy for me though, fluff-wise. And crunch-wise, its benefits seem to be non-earth-shattering as you describe. Too many benefits that are mostly irrelevant for such a role.

Uncanny dodge and stuff seems unnecessary for a wizard who is supposed to not get flanked. Immunity to surprise can be quite helpful, but partly replaced (partly only because of the 10min/level duration) by Foresight 9th level spell, which you'd have access to at that level.


Insightful Divination feat looks amazing for a Focused Diviner, so that definitely helps!

[Keld Denar]

The REALLY nice thing about Divine Oracle is its capstone. Read it, its basically permanent Foresight. Thats a 9th level persisted spell at level 15. The rest of the abilities are decent.

Loremaster is more of a good dip, IMO, especially if you are taking Divine Oracle, as they overlap in Prereqs.

Master Specialist is probably gonna be the strongest option though, due to simple power creep. Complete Mage was like, the 5th or 6th last book printed for 3.5, so. Looking over the esoterics though...Minor is crap. Moderate is crap. Major is...not crap, but nothing really to write home about. What else do you get from MS? Skill Focus: Spellcraft, good if you are going Archmage, bad otherwise. Greater Spell Focus: Divination. Um....only about 4-5 Divinations even have saves. Scry does. Unluck does. Um....I'm sure there are a couple others. Still, not terribly useful. CL increases are ok, and can get you benefits like more questions with Contact Other Plane and whatnot, but not terribly useful in combat. And...expanded spellbook. I'm thinking you are gonna have a hard time FINDING enough quality Divinations to learn, learning more isn't gonna help you too terribly much.

So yea, I guess my first impression was off. I'd go Wizard5/DivineOracle10/Loremaster5 or similar. Master Specialist doesn't seem very worthwhile at all for a Diviner.

[Optimystik]

If you really want to be the party oracle, a Psionic Seer is your best bet. Not much can equal Hypercognition and Metafaculty pre-epic.

If you're set on being a wizard though, I would make yourself rogue-ish and go with Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster. The stealth and sneak-attack will make up for your lower offensive and defensive magic, your Advanced Learnings let you grab very useful divinations from the lists of other classes, and Divination Spellpower will make you a question-answering powerhouse. (Plus, Practiced Caster will cancel out the tradeoff.)

US is in Complete Mage, AT is on the SRD.

Finally, if you don't want to be a rogue, I'd go with jiriku's/Keld's suggestion and pick up Divine Oracle. (Just refluff the name if it sounds too churchy.)

[gbprime]

Don't forget, someone who gets to Wizard 5 can take the Spontaneous Divination ability from Complete Champion instead of a bonus feat. If you're aiming for a Diviner, this is absolutely brilliant, as it means you have all your divination spells on demand without ever having to memorize one.

[Keld Denar]

as it means you have all your divination spells on demand without ever having to memorize one.

Which is kinda a bummer as a focus specialist who has to fill 3 full slots PER LEVEL with Divination spells. If you run out of prepared divinations to the point where you have to start converting your other spells, you are spending too much time squinting into the future and not enough time burninating things in the present. And stuff.

[Koury]

Which is kinda a bummer as a focus specialist who has to fill 3 full slots PER LEVEL with Divination spells. If you run out of prepared divinations to the point where you have to start converting your other spells, you are spending too much time squinting into the future and not enough time burninating things in the present. And stuff.

Hmm? Leave your Specialist slots unfilled if you're taking Spontanious Divination.

EDIT: Actually, would that work? Really, it doesn't matter as the point is you can prepare True Strike in every single Divination slot if you like and burn them to cast whatever Divination is useful at the moment.

[taltamir]

don't convert non divination spells into divination... convert divination spells into OTHER divination spells with it... so those 3 spell slots per spell level can have whatever, you just convert them to whatever you want.

[Mongoose87]

Consider some Archmage, using your Divination-only slots to power your abilities.

[gbprime]

don't convert non divination spells into divination... convert divination spells into OTHER divination spells with it... so those 3 spell slots per spell level can have whatever, you just convert them to whatever you want.

That is indeed the point.

Sure, you get X dedicated Divination slots per day. Say you filled your 2nd's with See Invisibility and Locate Object. Then a situation crops up where it would be VITAL to have taken Chain of Eyes or Discern Shapeshifter. You're covered.

And if you've got that many spell slots for just Divination, you are a great candidate for Signature Spell, so you can convert them into something else.

[dextercorvia]

Alacritous Cogitation is great for a Focused Specialist, for a similar reason to what they are saying about Spontaneous Divination. You can leave one of your highest level FS slots open to cast any spell you know with a casting time of 1 round or less as a full round action.

That would help with the burninating as Keld says.

Edit: And I vote for Divine Oracle, too. In addition to what was said about the capstone, the evasion-like ability is nice for squishy wizards.

[PId6]

Spontaneous Divination on a Focused Diviner is just really pointless though. You have more than enough slots that you'll probably be able to prepare all the divinations you want each level. Spontaneous Divination is best for non-diviner focused specialists, since you can convert, say, necromancy slots into divination spells, essentially making you focused necromancer-diviner without much cost.

[Keld Denar]

the evasion-like ability is nice for squishy wizards.

The evasion is kinda over rated. You won't have a good Ref save without a feat like Insightful Reflexes (or whatever the feat is that gives you +Int to Ref saves instead of dex). None of Wizard, Divine Oracle, or Loremaster have strong Ref saves. It would be something that would be nice when you roll well, but not to be relied on.

[PId6]

The evasion is kinda over rated. You won't have a good Ref save without a feat like Insightful Reflexes (or whatever the feat is that gives you +Int to Ref saves instead of dex). None of Wizard, Divine Oracle, or Loremaster have strong Ref saves. It would be something that would be nice when you roll well, but not to be relied on.
Depends. With the right spells (Superior Resistance) and items (Gloves of Dex, Amulet of Health), you can have pretty damn nice saves even as a wizard. My 12th level Malconvoker right now has +14 Fort, +14 Ref, and +17 Will using only all day buffs.

[dextercorvia]

The evasion is kinda over rated. You won't have a good Ref save without a feat like Insightful Reflexes (or whatever the feat is that gives you +Int to Ref saves instead of dex). None of Wizard, Divine Oracle, or Loremaster have strong Ref saves. It would be something that would be nice when you roll well, but not to be relied on.

Wizards do however, have the resistance line of spells, and they (usually) don't dump Dex. It's not perfect, but its better than a fireball in the eye.

Edit: Oh, so ninja'drogue'd

[Thespianus]

As for a knowledge/Divination PrC that's fairly flavorful, check out the Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion. A 5 level PrC, 5/5 casting, the first level grants you Lore, which is basically Bardic Knowledge. (It also gives you continued Turn Undead-progression, if you manage to squeeze in a level of Cleric, but I don't see that happening :smallsmile: )

Also, for each level you get a new Knowledge is Power-ability. Now these aren't great, but they can be fun and they are fairly flavorful.

[Morph Bark]

What is to say you can't do both? You can have more than one PrC, you know. You can get into Master Specialist at level 4 and then see to go into Divine Oracle or Loremaster as shown before. Even if you go into Divine Oracle, you could eventually later on take at least one level in Loremaster and take an ability from the list you see most fitting for your character (with a high enough Int, you could pick anything from it).