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Supagoth
2010-06-18, 08:31 PM
Hey All was just wondering, with 'Divine Counterspell' ACF from Complete Mage. How does the counterspelling work? Is it a Standard action or a reflexive one? Any light you can shed would be wonderful!

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 08:34 PM
Counterspelling is a readied action. You ready an action and as soon as you identify the spell being cast you can cast it too (or a sufficiently leveled dispel magic spell), cancelling the effects of the caster's spell. I do not recall if you can ready do "counterspell whatever first spell i see being cast" or if you must focus on a specific caster tho.

tyckspoon
2010-06-18, 08:37 PM
It says it operates as per using Dispel Magic, it means operates as per using Dispel Magic. So you have to observe all normal restrictions on counterspelling; you just get an alternate resource you can spend to do it instead of spell slots. Any other relevant feats should apply normally, like Reactive Counterspell.

Supagoth
2010-06-18, 09:04 PM
Damn seems silly but alright...
@Tyck Which book is that feat from?

Ilmryn
2010-06-18, 09:11 PM
I also have a thing i'm wondering about counterspells. Can you counterspell with a quickened spell using a swift action? Can you ready a swift action?
Also, can you counterspell someone's counterspell, letting the original spell take effect as intended.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 09:17 PM
I also have a thing i'm wondering about counterspells. Can you counterspell with a quickened spell using a swift action? Can you ready a swift action?
Also, can you counterspell someone's counterspell, letting the original spell take effect as intended.

Nothing says a standard spell can't counterspell a quickened spell. Readied actions are like that.

Ilmryn
2010-06-18, 09:31 PM
Nothing says a standard spell can't counterspell a quickened spell. Readied actions are like that.

I was asking if you could counterspell a normal spell with a quickened spell, using a swift action.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 09:33 PM
I was asking if you could counterspell a normal spell with a quickened spell, using a swift action.

Oh, sorry. Yeah you should be able to.

Teron
2010-06-18, 09:39 PM
By the core rules (I don't know if the Rules Compendium says anything about this), it always takes a standard action to ready an action, and you technically can't ready a swift action at all (only standard, move or free). The second part is obviously because they didn't exist at the outset of 3.5, and easily corrected; but if move and free actions take a standard to ready, it stands to reason a swift should too.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-18, 09:50 PM
You can't ready a Swift action because then you'd be able to get 2 of them (one normal, one readied). Swift action abilities are generally balanced with the forethought that you only get one of them per round, as some of them are quite powerful (casting an extra spell a round, stuff from ToB, etc.). Getting a second Swift action is a powerful ability and not something just anyone can do, even by sacrificing their Standard.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 09:53 PM
You can't ready a Swift action because then you'd be able to get 2 of them (one normal, one readied). Swift action abilities are generally balanced with the forethought that you only get one of them per round, as some of them are quite powerful (casting an extra spell a round, stuff from ToB, etc.). Getting a second Swift action is a powerful ability and not something just anyone can do, even by sacrificing their Standard.

So you are saying that by using a swift action as a standard action i will be able to use two swift actions?
Sir, that doesn't make much sense. Readying to cast a swift spell means you're giving up the swift benefits and instead casting it as a standard. Casting 2 swift spells and no standard spells is no better than casting a standard spell and a swift spell.

olentu
2010-06-18, 09:56 PM
So you are saying that by using a swift action as a standard action i will be able to use two swift actions?
Sir, that doesn't make much sense. Readying to cast a swift spell means you're giving up the swift benefits and instead casting it as a standard. Casting 2 swift spells and no standard spells is no better than casting a standard spell and a swift spell.

Er it can be better since some spells are by default a swift action.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 09:57 PM
Er it can be better since some spells are by default a swift action.

Right, and you'll be using a standard action to cast them. I still don't see how casting a swift spell with a standard action should be any better than casting with a swift action.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-18, 09:59 PM
Because there're other things you can do with Swift actions.

Teron
2010-06-18, 09:59 PM
I thought it went without saying that, if readying a swift action is allowed, it would count as your swift action for the turn in which you ready it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-18, 10:02 PM
I thought it went without saying that, if readying a swift action is allowed, it would count as your swift action for the turn in which you ready it.

Really? Why? :smallconfused:



Anyway, Snake-Aes, I can give one example of why casting 2 spells as Swift actions is better than casting a Swift and a Standard spell: AoOs. Quickened spells aren't subject to AoOs (because they're too fast).

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 10:04 PM
Because there're other things you can do with Swift actions.

ugh, are we even talking about the same thing here?
You said "swift spells should not be readiable", and I'm saying "like free/move actions, ready them as standard actions then". That's it, you are deliberately dropping the spell's speed to standard.

Remember, the action restriction is "1 swift, 1 standard, 1 move". If you're readying a swift spell, you're demoting it to standard.

Ilmryn
2010-06-18, 10:06 PM
Right, and you'll be using a standard action to cast them. I still don't see how casting a swift spell with a standard action should be any better than casting with a swift action.

There actually is an instance where it would be beneficial to cast as standard instead of swift. A spell from dragon magic lets you cast all of your standard casting time spells as swift actions, but it dosen't give you the option of casting with a standard action instead, thereby not giving you 2 spells per turn. With readied standard actions you could circumvent that.

However, the real reason i wanted to ready swift actions is to be able to counterspell with a quickened spell without giving up my standard action. This especially came into play with an epic caster i was playing who had taken multispell lots of times and could quicken 8 spells/round, with quickened counterspells, he could couterspell 8 spells per turn. With the Archmage high arcana Mastery of Counterspelling, that could become quite nasty...

Snake-Aes
2010-06-18, 10:08 PM
I see. No, you can only ready free, standard and move actions.

Teron
2010-06-18, 10:09 PM
Sorry, that may have been unclear. I don't mean it's necessarily the only sensible thing to do, just the natural (to me, at least) way to handle it. I don't know off the top of my head that it would break anything to allow a second swift one at the cost of a standard, but the point of readying actions is only to change when you act, not how much you can do in a round.

If you want to allow swapping a standard for a swift, then just allow it; don't turn readying into a loophole.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-18, 10:12 PM
ugh, are we even talking about the same thing here?

No, we're not. My original point was that allowing the readying of Swift actions (in general) isn't balanced because of the OTHER things that you can use Swift actions to accomplish.


This especially came into play with an epic caster i was playing who had taken multispell lots of times and could quicken 8 spells/round, with quickened counterspells, he could couterspell 8 spells per turn. With the Archmage high arcana Mastery of Counterspelling, that could become quite nasty...

Even so, I'm not seeing how you're readying 8 actions in one turn. :smallconfused:

Soras Teva Gee
2010-06-18, 10:14 PM
Counterspelling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells) is a distinct action of its own. Its a readied standard action where you pick a distinct target that you will counter if they cast a spell. Assuming you pass the specific Spellcraft check or will bet on Dispel Magic working. You can certainly use a swift-action spell for your readied counter if you want (and might even need to) but you can't say have a Quickened Dispel Magic as a general counter while skipping the Counterspell because its a specific and different action taken from casting a spell.

(Unless there's some particular spell or feat out there that specifically allows this, which I wouldn't know)

tyckspoon
2010-06-18, 11:26 PM
Damn seems silly but alright...
@Tyck Which book is that feat from?

Reactive Counterspell is in Player's Guide to Faerun. It's actually not very good, tho- it frees you from having to ready an action, but it does it with a huge version of an Immediate action; the counterspell eats your entire next turn's actions. For a divine caster, what you want is the Divine Defiance feat from Fiendish Codex 2, which lets you use a Turn Undead use to reactively counterspell as a real Immediate action. The rest of the text is kinda foggy, but I think it also says that the spell you would have used to counterspell isn't expended when you do it, just the Turn Undead use (you still have to have an appropriate counterspelling spell available, it just.. doesn't seem to actually get used. No great hardship to keep a Greater/Reaving Dispel Magic on hand.)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-18, 11:33 PM
Counterspelling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells) is a distinct action of its own. Its a readied standard action where you pick a distinct target that you will counter if they cast a spell. Assuming you pass the specific Spellcraft check or will bet on Dispel Magic working. You can certainly use a swift-action spell for your readied counter if you want (and might even need to) but you can't say have a Quickened Dispel Magic as a general counter while skipping the Counterspell because its a specific and different action taken from casting a spell.

(Unless there's some particular spell or feat out there that specifically allows this, which I wouldn't know)

I believe their is feat called reactive counterspelling. You can counter spell once per round without readying. It does cost you your action on the next turn.