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View Full Version : [3.5] Beguiler tactics



Jeff the Green
2010-06-19, 08:20 AM
So, I'm slated to play a Beguiler in my brother's campaign starting next week. I've got a decent build (it's not a highly optimized campaign):

Race: Gnome
INT: 18
Feats: Spell Focus (Illusion), Improved Initiative, Dazzling Illusion
Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft 4; Sense Motive, Intimidate 2; Handle Animal 1 (that's for fluff)

What I don't know is tactics: I've played sneak thieves and I've played blaster mages, but never sneaky mages. From what I understand I'll be expected to be a backup scout (hence Hide and Move Silently) to get the primary scout out of trouble, and possibly the party face.

Therefore, I need some help with strategy. Can I, for example, gain a bonus to Intimidate checks if I convince someone (via silent image) that my riding dog breathes fire? Can I use silent image on an object (say dice) to make it look like something else (dice that only roll 6s)? What are the best ways to use my illusions and enchantments to help my allies and confound my foes?

Escheton
2010-06-19, 08:31 AM
for later lvls, consider the killer gnome.
It does well on your base. And even if you don't cheese into it, it has many uses.

And those would be circumstance bonuses. Something that is prettymuch all up to how your dm rules.

Also, where is the search and disable device in your skills?
Even if you don't have the actual trapsmith role, 1 rank in each means you can aid the rogue.

Runestar
2010-06-19, 08:43 AM
Beguiler Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872218/-_The_New_Beguiler_Handbook_-_2008)

Scroll down and search for the sections on spell tactics. :smallsmile:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-19, 10:06 AM
Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar for an Imp, Quasit, or Pseudodragon is a superb choice for a Beguiler. Note that you can take Improved Familiar at 6th level and just wait until 7th to summon a new one. I'd prefer an Imp due to its Suggestion spell-like ability, considering a good alignment interferes with dipping into Mindbender. Definitely take one level of Mindbender at your 6th character level and then go back to Beguiler so your Advanced Learning ability will grant you a spell one level higher from then on.

Get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, which could/should grant you early access to the next level of spells. It's up to how your DM wants to rule its interaction with your spells known, since you gain knowledge of the next level of spells upon gaining access to that level of spells. There are strong arguments for both sides, so let your DM make the decision. On one hand you can't actually cast spells of the next level via Versatile Spellcaster unless you know at least one, so barring Heighten Spell or outside knowledge of a spell of that level you do not have access to that level of spells and do not gain that level of your class spell list as spells known. On the other hand leveling up you may get a spell slot of the next level but similarly you cannot cast a spell of that level until you know one, so Versatile Spellcaster grants just as much access to the next level of spells as you get upon leveling up, and will grant knowledge of the next level of spells by the same mechanic.

If he lets Versatile Spellcaster alone grant you access to the next level of spells, your Advanced Learning spell levels can be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th. My choices for these would be Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility.

If Versatile Spellcaster alone won't grant early access to the next level of spells known, grab a non-native Bloodline (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (page 112+) to get at least one spell known of every spell level. That would allow you to use Versatile Spellcaster to cast the next level of spells early, thus granting you knowledge of your class spells of that level as well. You'd need Obtain Familiar to take any of those, so 6th level is the earliest you could get a bloodline feat. Another option would be to get Heighten Spell, ideally at 1st level via a flaw, which should interact with Versatile Spellcaster to grant you knowledge of the next level of spells in the same way as a bloodline feat. With Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster at 1st level you can use my examples above for your Advanced Learning spells gained, but with a bloodline feat you'd need to pick a 1st level spell in place of Ray of Stupidity.

Heighten Spell happens to be a cornerstone of the Shadowcraft Mage build, combined with Silent Image to act like a Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation via the Shadow Illusion ability granted by that class. Ideally you would also get Earth Spell and Residual Magic, and have an encyclopedic knowledge of every evocation and conjuration spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Zaq
2010-06-19, 01:13 PM
Therefore, I need some help with strategy. Can I, for example, gain a bonus to Intimidate checks if I convince someone (via silent image) that my riding dog breathes fire? Can I use silent image on an object (say dice) to make it look like something else (dice that only roll 6s)? What are the best ways to use my illusions and enchantments to help my allies and confound my foes?

All ad-hoc circumstance bonuses like that are up to the GM, but I'd sure as hell allow it, assuming that the target fears fire.


Can I use silent image on an object (say dice) to make it look like something else (dice that only roll 6s)?

No. That would take a glamer. Silent Image is a figment, which cannot change something's appearance; it can only create the appearance of something new. (It would work on the dog because you're creating the image of fire, not changing the appearance of the dog. Makes sense?) The types of illusions are actually very important, and as a Beguiler it's pretty critical to familiarize yourself with what each one can and cannot do. (This being a WotC product, there are a few ambiguities and contradictions, such as whether Silent Image, a figment, can produce the appearance of a pit... but that's something to discuss with your GM.)


What are the best ways to use my illusions and enchantments to help my allies and confound my foes?

Illusions are, in my opinion, the most versatile spells in the game, bar none. Anything you can think of, you can make. Then you just have to convince people to react to it. As a rule, if no one is watching (you're preparing a trap of some kind, for instance), I tend to make totally mundane-looking things that people won't think to question. If people ARE watching you, well, they're seeing a magic-type guy wave his arms and chant floobitywhatzits, so they're expecting magic to appear. If they don't have too many ranks in Spellcraft, they might be willing to believe that you can, indeed, conjure up a huge pillar of fire (make sure that the illusion has a thermal component), or a giant maelstrom in the water, or a really big and nasty friend.

Since you have UMD, I highly recommend investing in some wands/scrolls of actual versions of the common spell effects you mimic. If you like making menacing friends, for instance, get a couple scrolls of Summon Monster. If they disbelieve one, they might disbelieve the next... but the next one will be real. Likewise, if you make a wall of fire (real) and surround it with a bunch of illusory walls of fire... well, do you wanna test which one is real? I sure as hell don't.

There's a skill trick (and I think a feat, but feats are expensive) that lets you disguise your spells as you cast them. If an enemy has ranks in spellcraft, he might be able to identify "oh, that's just an illusion" as you're casting it... but not with this trick. Still and Silent spell serve the same purpose, but have their own drawbacks.

If your GM is game, consider writing down the sources of your magical effects on a slip of paper (whether it's a real wall of fire or a fake one, for instance) when you cast them, and only revealing what it actually was if something pokes it. This makes your GM not have to actively try not to metagame.

Definitely work with your party to make some kind of code, so you can subtly indicate to them whether your spells are real or fake. Remember that if your allies charge heedlessly through what looks like a wall of fire, your enemies will probably catch on that it's not real... and if you're mixing in real effects as well, your allies will need to know what they can and can't do. (That, and you get the whole illusion-blocking-line-of-sight thing taken care of, if you can just mutter "code dove!" to your allies and they'll immediately save against the illusory wall with a bonus.) The typical Mindbender dip for telepathy serves this purpose very well.

Talk with your GM ahead of time about how mindless things interact with illusions. There's a lot of ambiguity. A mindless zombie is lumbering toward you, and you make the illusion of a pit between you and it. Does it ignore the pit and mindlessly stumble toward you? (If so, does that mean that a zombie can be stopped by conjuring a real pit in front of it?) Does it not have the critical thinking necessary to question the pit, taking it at face value and stopping until it can lumber toward a way around? (You only get a save to disbelieve if you have a reason to, or if you interact with it... and the zombie has met neither condition.) This is the kind of thing you need to settle AHEAD of time, to save a lot of at-table slowdown and animosity.

AvatarZero
2010-06-19, 01:41 PM
Make sure that you are very clear about how your DM will be handling illusions in game. The actual rules for them don't matter, it's how he/she is running them.

I played a Beguiler once. Level 4. I wanted to use illusions to trick enemies into running away or making mistakes in combat, but every time I put the time and effort into thinking up and describing a good illusion, my DM negated it in half the time.

I tried scaring a group of archers by "summoning" a celestial monster (I bet you can't guess where I got that idea from :smallwink:); one of them fired one arrow at it, declared "It's an illusion!" and everyone else ignored it. I tried creating a group of swordsmen to distract a group of mindless undead; they all attacked once and succeeded on their Will saves for disbelief. (I know! But like I said, it's not what the rules say, it's what the DM thinks the rules say.)

Both illusions and enchantments can be defeated by your DM disputing their effectiveness, so eventually I gave up and started casting spells that didn't have disputable effects. Yeah, I was a fourth level Beguiler, so I started using Glitterdust on everything we encountered. The game stopped being fun, and I left.

Are you sure you want to be a Beguiler? There's always room for another Fighter in the party. Can't argue with a sword.

Draz74
2010-06-19, 01:58 PM
for later lvls, consider the killer gnome.


... What part of "it's not a highly optimized campaign" did you not understand?

Escheton
2010-06-19, 02:02 PM
... What part of "it's not a highly optimized campaign" did you not understand?

seriously?
1 sentence later dude: It does well on your base. And even if you don't cheese into it, it has many uses.

now, I see how you don't deduct from that that you can actually play it in a non-optimised way.
But still, seriously?

Draz74
2010-06-19, 02:09 PM
seriously?
1 sentence later dude: It does well on your base. And even if you don't cheese into it, it has many uses.
Yes, I caught that. I still disagreed.

Shadowcraft Mage is one of the 10 most powerful PrCs in the entire game. Saying "play it, just don't cheese it out" is like saying "play Incantatrix, just don't cheese it out." It might be possible to play it "in a non-optimized way," but ... it just doesn't feel like a good suggestion for a beginning player or a non-optimized group. And I think there's still too much chance of it accidentally turning out overpowered.

Besides, "the killer gnome" technically means a specific build, not just Shadowcraft Mage. And it is impossible to make "the killer gnome" in a non-optimized way.

Zaq
2010-06-19, 02:10 PM
Shadowcraft Mage is a fun and flavorful PrC that is not broken out of the box. If that is what you are suggesting, then awesome.

The Killer Gnome is a specific use for the Shadowcraft Mage who abuses a legal but totally cheesy combo to have damn near any spell effect he needs at his fingertips (often more real than real) with relatively little resource expenditure.

One can have a place in a not-very-optimized game. The other, not so much.

Escheton
2010-06-19, 02:15 PM
Shadowcraft Mage is a fun and flavorful PrC that is not broken out of the box. If that is what you are suggesting, then awesome.

The Killer Gnome is a specific use for the Shadowcraft Mage who abuses a legal but totally cheesy combo to have damn near any spell effect he needs at his fingertips (often more real than real) with relatively little resource expenditure.

One can have a place in a not-very-optimized game. The other, not so much.

Yeah, killer gnome was closer to mind then shadowcraft mage due to him actually being a gnome.
Figured it was better to just mention killer gnome then search for the term shadowcraft mage for 10 minutes.
As he will prolly get advice to at least read up on it by others who post after me anyways.

Jeff the Green
2010-06-19, 09:04 PM
for later lvls, consider the killer gnome.
It does well on your base. And even if you don't cheese into it, it has many uses.
Yeah, I've seen the killer gnome build, and the Shadowcraft Mage PrC. Definitely won't use the former, probably won't take the latter. Partly because it's a low-optimization game (I'm probably the only one drawing from non-core) but also because the wizard is a (**twitch**) blaster/summoner. They need utility and battle control, not someone to be a font of raw magical power. (I'll still be taking Shadow Evocation with Advanced Learning, mind you, but for versatility, not power.)


Lots of advice.
That's exactly what I was looking for! I've started rereading the magic rules and I'll be talking with the DM soon. Thanks!

It's a shame about the dice, though. :smallfrown: Is there a spell that would let me pull that trick? I can't find one in either PHB or SpC.

faceroll
2010-06-19, 11:46 PM
for later lvls, consider the killer gnome.
It does well on your base. And even if you don't cheese into it, it has many uses.

And those would be circumstance bonuses. Something that is prettymuch all up to how your dm rules.

Also, where is the search and disable device in your skills?
Even if you don't have the actual trapsmith role, 1 rank in each means you can aid the rogue.

Killer gnome is kind of an all-or-nothing build, that doesn't really work until levels 10+, and even then, for a beguiler, it's not really worth, since it's feat heavy, you already have spontaneous casting, you can get 9 spells with a feat (arcane disciple), and you lose out on juicy skills and skill points.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 12:21 AM
For any spontaneous caster, Sand Shaper's worth a look (+43 spells known, including some spells at a lower level than they usually are, at the cost of a spellcasting level - one of the very few times I'd even consider such a thing), and for any full-list caster, Rainbow Servant's a pretty sweet deal (three domains and the addition of ever Cleric spell to your spell list - you know, that one you know every spell on). Both of these expand versatility without necessarily expanding power: they give you more options for spells to cast.

Do note that Rainbow Servant loses 4 spellcasting levels (read: not even remotely worth it) according to the table, but none according to the text. RAW, text trumps table, so by RAW you would not lose any spellcasting levels, but your DM may choke on this a bit.

But honestly, Beguiler is one of the better classes to take straight, possibly with a dip in Mindbender for the 100' Telepathy.

faceroll
2010-06-20, 01:49 AM
For any spontaneous caster, Sand Shaper's worth a look (+43 spells known, including some spells at a lower level than they usually are, at the cost of a spellcasting level - one of the very few times I'd even consider such a thing), and for any full-list caster, Rainbow Servant's a pretty sweet deal (three domains and the addition of ever Cleric spell to your spell list - you know, that one you know every spell on). Both of these expand versatility without necessarily expanding power: they give you more options for spells to cast.

Do note that Rainbow Servant loses 4 spellcasting levels (read: not even remotely worth it) according to the table, but none according to the text. RAW, text trumps table, so by RAW you would not lose any spellcasting levels, but your DM may choke on this a bit.

But honestly, Beguiler is one of the better classes to take straight, possibly with a dip in Mindbender for the 100' Telepathy.

Rainbow Servant requires you to be Good as well as suffer through ten levels of it before you get access too all clerical casting, at the cost of your skills. If you really wanted to play a caster, I would instead recommend playing a caster. Sandshaper can be worth the dip, if you don't mind burning skill points.

But the whole point of playing a beguiler is to be a sneak-thief caster that can chat up the ladies from level 1 to 20 without jumping through Wizards' clunky multiclassing hoops. Beguiler is an awesome hybrid class, and mindbender is really the only thing worth dipping out to, imo.

PId6
2010-06-20, 01:58 AM
But the whole point of playing a beguiler is to be a sneak-thief caster that can chat up the ladies from level 1 to 20 without jumping through Wizards' clunky multiclassing hoops. Beguiler is an awesome hybrid class, and mindbender is really the only thing worth dipping out to, imo.
I'd take Shadowcraft Mage as well. It fits both thematically and mechanically. Rainbow Servant does work better with Warmage though.