PDA

View Full Version : NPC Competence/Campaign Asssitance



Dust
2010-06-19, 03:43 PM
Gaming groups will inevitably find something to complain about, at least in my experience. Perhaps the Inns all have similar names or there's too much/little magical treasure. It's impossible for GMs to ever fix every nitpicking issue, but we can most certainly continue to try.

For my group, the biggest complain I most often hear is that the NPCs aren't genre-savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) enough. The players will bring the game to a grinding halt unless I can give them a flawlessly-convincing explanation of why the Big Bad didn't take appropriate precautions before activating a long-long artifact of limitless power, or why the King even has an advisor since they're ALWAYS evil upon first meeting him (he wasn't). In a Silver Age superhero game, they were shocked by the fact that they could arrive at the scene of a crime using instantaneous teleportation several minutes before the poliec arrived - after all, shouldn't they have found someone with precognition to aid them by now?

And so forth and so on.

This is something that has been a stumbling block for me for some time, and the players have requested I run a cliche 4e D&D game where 'they get to choose to fight for good or evil.' This seems doable - inspired by Homestuck, I'm considering the concept of two warring kingdoms locked in war until the PCs turn the tables one way or the other.

The problem, of course, is that the first time Good King doesn't instantly unload the treasury for our heroes he'll be marked as 'worthless' and the group will immediately switch sides. As soon as the Bad King executes someone who could conceivably still have information he'll get the same title. 'Bad King tosses them in a holding cell instead? Please.' 'Magical torture for information? Doesn't he have anything better to do?'

I'm certain this problem caused by them as much as it is me, but I'm looking for suggestions on how to demonstrate extreme competence from a warring faction. The Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) is a great place to start of course, but is there a similar resource for Good Guys™? Any advice for running a game in which the PCs are invariable less competent than the NPCs?

Mikeavelli
2010-06-19, 04:00 PM
a simple solution might be to create incredibly genre-savvy opponents that grind the players into dust with all manner of Batman schennanigans and knowing this plucky band of adventurers is the biggest threat to their power, so launching the big guns first off is the correct strategy.

Then TPK the party and wash your hands of it. :P

[hr]

Don't actually do that.

More helpful advice might run along the lines of saying Magic and such is rare, and most people in the world powerful enough to, say, precognatively scry for the popo aren't going to take a job sitting around scrying for the popo, they've got problems higher up the CR ladder to deal with.

Players constantly switching sides and turning traitor should be hunted down and hated by pretty much everyone. If all else fails, explain it to them bluntly and directly.

Dust
2010-06-19, 04:03 PM
That does seem to be the smartest solution. :smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2010-06-19, 04:32 PM
Alternatively, those capable of using magic only use it to serve their own needs. A spellcaster capable of casting create food and water might not even ever see daylight (unless they are a level 5 or higher cleric). In fact, some of them might be so reclusive they have only been heard of when they were still learning to grasp the basics of magic. Others of course might only want to help the party if they get a load of money out of it. Magic-users should be helluva selfish, most of the time. LG and NG Clerics might be different, if they even exist.

Otherwise, just use Healers instead of Clerics, also limits the magic a bit. Or throw out certain magic-using classes completely, using less powerful versions instead (away wizard and sorcerer, welcome beguiler and warmage and dread necromancer!), etcetera.

arguskos
2010-06-19, 04:46 PM
That does seem to be the smartest solution. :smallbiggrin:
Last time my group bitched about this, I calmly said, "ok, fine. Here's how it's going to go down" and explained precisely how I could grind them all into a sticky paste with no trouble at all if they REALLY wanted a genre-savvy opponent. They never asked for that again. I approve of this course of action.

Devils_Advocate
2010-06-19, 11:30 PM
The players will bring the game to a grinding halt unless I can give them a flawlessly-convincing explanation of why the Big Bad didn't take appropriate precautions before activating a long-long artifact of limitless power
"Because he's crazy" doesn't cut it? A character who initiates such a ritual is, at least by default, a megalomaniac at best.


or why the King even has an advisor since they're ALWAYS evil upon first meeting him (he wasn't).
"Stories are not representative of the world they are set it. An account of how peaceful and prosperous an exceedingly well-managed kingdom was does not make for a gripping tale, gang. You mostly hear about the evil chancellors because evil is generally more interesting than good, not because most chancellors are evil."


In a Silver Age superhero game, they were shocked by the fact that they could arrive at the scene of a crime using instantaneous teleportation several minutes before the poliec arrived - after all, shouldn't they have found someone with precognition to aid them by now?
Well, of course, but superhero comics tend to be unrealistic like that (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49855). Heroes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless) and villains (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutLexLuthorACheck) inexplicably lack various effects on society even when this makes no sense.


the players have requested I run a cliche 4e D&D game where 'they get to choose to fight for good or evil.'
Doesn't a cliche game demand just the sort of incompetence that they're criticizing? :smallconfused: The whole point of the Evil Overlord List is that stereotypical villains are stupid, crazy, and/or genre blind to a comical degree.

Or do they want a world governed by traditional narrative conventions, except that people are aware of the principles at work, because at least some of them have above-room-temperature IQs and are capable of basic pattern recognition? If so, you might consider looking at the Discworld novels; I gather that some of them explore this premise a bit.

Of course, one of the upshots of people understanding what's going on is that some of them will use that knowledge to change the way that the world works. That's what happens in real life, after all.


The problem, of course, is that the first time Good King doesn't instantly unload the treasury for our heroes he'll be marked as 'worthless' and the group will immediately switch sides.
I thought that they wanted him not to be an idiot. :smallconfused: Surely that precludes giving all of his money to a group of violent lunatics (a.k.a. "adventurers") that he just met.


As soon as the Bad King executes someone who could conceivably still have information he'll get the same title. 'Bad King tosses them in a holding cell instead? Please.' 'Magical torture for information? Doesn't he have anything better to do?'
I'm not following. Which of those courses of action would they be criticizing? All of them? :smallconfused:


Any advice for running a game in which the PCs are invariable less competent than the NPCs?
The NPCs are natives; they know how their world works, while they players may not. Some players fail to grasp, e.g., that the average peasant will never even see an actual gold coin and does not have anything like the sort of stats needed to kill a bear unarmed. Paranoia about royal advisers is just another example of this.

Generally speaking, just have NPCs pursue their goals using the knowledge and resources that they have available, and have the environment reflect that. For example, if you want to keep everyone but you and your associates out of someplace, you're going to protect it with locks that only you have the keys to, with wards that only you have the passwords to bypass. You're not going to deliberately make it so that anyone with sufficient skill can get in (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySmartPeopleMayPass). You might make it look that way, on the other hand...