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Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 05:42 PM
Can a level 1 character be optimized? I do not think this is possible, but then again, I didn't think things like Pun-Pun were possible either.

I am challenging the Playground to build an optimized level 1 character.


Must be ECL 1(so no LA)

0 xp


300 gp


no homebrew

All sourcebooks allowed, but please note which ones you used

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-19, 05:43 PM
In before Druid 1.

AlterForm
2010-06-19, 05:43 PM
Take a look at the Arena Tournament in the Play by Post forums. Lots of neato L1 character builds. One of the most recent winners is a 20-ft reach tentacle-grappling commoner.

They don't stack up to most Optimized builds at higher levels and will usually have a PvP focus (although there isn't much difference between Fighter1 and a CR1 monster), but the Arena folks come up with fun combos from time to time.

Flickerdart
2010-06-19, 05:43 PM
Optimized to do what, exactly? Even at 1st level, there is a great deal of shenanigans (Phrenic Incarnate Warforged Wizard, for instance) that can accomplish many different things.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 05:46 PM
Can a level 1 character be optimized? I do not think this is possible, but then again, I didn't think things like Pun-Pun were possible either.

Funny you should mention Pun-Pun... (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29#Pun-Pun_at_Level_1)

Heliomance
2010-06-19, 05:51 PM
Old Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin 1
Int 20
4 ranks Knowledge (Religion)
Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion))
Masterwork tome of Knowledge (Religion)
Absent-minded trait

Snake-Aes
2010-06-19, 05:51 PM
Can a level 1 character be optimized? I do not think this is possible, but then again, I didn't think things like Pun-Pun were possible either.

I am challenging the Playground to build an optimized level 1 character.


Must be ECL 1(so no LA)

0 xp


300 gp


no homebrew

All sourcebooks allowed, but please note which ones you used
Optimization stands for making the best possible use of tools at your disposal. It is possible to optimize within any boundaries that give you options. Semantics show that yes, you can optimize level 1 characters =P A sun elf wizard with 20 int is more optimized than a half orc wizard that dumped int!

Greenish
2010-06-19, 05:57 PM
The Terminator.

Warforged Barbarian 1, spirit lion totem, whirling frenzy.
Adamantine Body, Toughness, Troll Blooded*.

*Only prerequisites for Troll Blooded (according to my sources, don't have the dragon mag at hand) are Toughness and the right region. It doesn't say you have to actually have blood.

Bayar
2010-06-19, 06:00 PM
Half elf Bard with a CHA score of 18, 4 ranks in diplomacy, a masterwork diplomacy tool, the two traits that would grant a bonus to diplomacy, skill focus diplomacy as a feat and the ACF that swaps Countersong with Soothing voice.

Start singing with soothing voice then diplomance the **** out of them with your +15 modifier at level 1.

Knaight
2010-06-19, 06:01 PM
Yeah, there is a lot you can do. If I want I could make a warblade who can do 25 damage on a single hit, that's optimizing damage. I could optimize HP and AC with a fighter to make a defensive wall (completely worthless for anyone at a higher level, but AC actually matters at level 1). I could optimize a wizard by taking sleep, color spray, grease, and similar instead of magic missile so as to be able to take down encounters on my own. Etc. etc.

Give the forum a few level 1 goals to make as powerful as possible, and it will prove that level 1 optimization is doable.

OldTrees
2010-06-19, 06:01 PM
Another Example (non caster I know)

Dwarf Kensai (alternate fighter class)
Hit Dice: [1d10+8] (18 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 Dex, Chain Shirt +4, Large Shield +2)
Touch AC: 12
Flat-footed AC: 16
Attack: Kusari-Gama 1d20+4 melee 1d6+3 (20/x2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 4/-, Darkvision 60ft
Saves: Fortitude +7, Reflexes +2, Will -1
Abilities: Strength 14, Constitution 20, Dexterity 14, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 8, Charisma 6
Skills: Balance [4] +6
Flaws/ Feats: Fussy, Shaky/Toughness, Roll With It (x2)
Gear: Kusari-Gama, Large Shield, Chain Shirt

Kensai trades martial weapon proficiencies and a bonus feat for 1 weapon martial/exotic proficiency and +1attack/damage

Sources Used:
PHB: Dwarf, Fighter, Toughness, Large Shield, Chain Shirt
DMG: Kusari-Gama
Savage Species: Roll With It
Dragon #328: Fussy Flaw
Dragon #310: Kensai

Hague
2010-06-19, 06:02 PM
What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"

Greenish
2010-06-19, 06:04 PM
Give the forum a few level 1 goals to make as powerful as possible, and it will prove that level 1 optimization is doable.Well, "as powerful as possible" is a bit tricky, because that's Pun-Pun.

What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"Soap on a rope.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-19, 06:04 PM
What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"

GP and extra characters

Critical
2010-06-19, 06:05 PM
Desert Half-Orc Wizard with the highest base weight possible. First turn of battle he sends his raven familiar over the opponents head and casts Enlarge Person on himself. Then he casts Benign Transposition on him and the familiar and deals 20d6 damage.

Neat, huh? :smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2010-06-19, 06:06 PM
What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"
Appropriate, good quality clothing? A gift? Could be allsorts.

Sitzkrieg
2010-06-19, 06:08 PM
What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"

These: :cool:

Critical
2010-06-19, 06:10 PM
These: :cool:

That's a masterwork bluff tool.

Morph Bark
2010-06-19, 06:11 PM
Appropriate, good quality clothing? A gift? Could be allsorts.

One reason I prefer Rich Burlew's remake of the Diplomacy rules into dealbreaking rather than friendmaking.

Mongoose87
2010-06-19, 06:13 PM
What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"

Probably C-3P0.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-19, 06:17 PM
Probably C-3P0.

[/thread ] you win sir

Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 06:19 PM
Yeah, there is a lot you can do. If I want I could make a warblade who can do 25 damage on a single hit, that's optimizing damage. I could optimize HP and AC with a fighter to make a defensive wall (completely worthless for anyone at a higher level, but AC actually matters at level 1). I could optimize a wizard by taking sleep, color spray, grease, and similar instead of magic missile so as to be able to take down encounters on my own. Etc. etc.

Give the forum a few level 1 goals to make as powerful as possible, and it will prove that level 1 optimization is doable.

Goal #1: Beat a moster of CR 9 or higher.
Goal #2: Be able to make it throgh adventures designed for level 5+

Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 06:21 PM
[QUOTE=Greenish;8740283]Well, "as powerful as possible" is a bit tricky, because that's Pun-Pun.[QUOTE]

The only Pun-Pun build I've ever see has 5 levels and LA to boot. Can pun-pun be done at level 1 with no xp and only 300gp? If so, post the link.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 06:21 PM
Goal #1: Beat a moster of CR 9 or higher.Which monster?

[Edit]:
The only Pun-Pun build I've ever see has 5 levels and LA to boot. Can pun-pun be done at level 1 with no xp and only 300gp? If so, post the link.Pay attention.
Funny you should mention Pun-Pun... (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29#Pun-Pun_at_Level_1)
Old Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin 1
Int 20
4 ranks Knowledge (Religion)
Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion))
Masterwork tome of Knowledge (Religion)
Absent-minded trait

Bayar
2010-06-19, 06:22 PM
What the hell is a "Masterwork diplomacy tool?"

Cologne .




The only Pun-Pun build I've ever see has 5 levels and LA to boot. Can pun-pun be done at level 1 with no xp and only 300gp? If so, post the link.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/rect4247-1.png

I drew this myself :smallcool:

Long Story: You use this:

Old Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin 1
Int 20
4 ranks Knowledge (Religion)
Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion))
Masterwork tome of Knowledge (Religion)
Absent-minded trait
And roll a Knowlege (religion) check to find out that you can summon Pazuzu by saying his name 3 times. Pazuzu likes corrupting paladins. You wish for a LE Candle of Invocation. Then follow the flowchart.

Rothen
2010-06-19, 06:25 PM
Funny you should mention Pun-Pun... (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29#Pun-Pun_at_Level_1)

Some of the comments written on there are hilarious.

Escheton
2010-06-19, 06:31 PM
The prereq for trollblooded is actually a human from that region.

so a human binder bound to aym for fire resist 10, fire dmg to foe when hit and improved sunder and those feats is pretty optimized. Deals double damage to objects.
Who needs a warblade or adamantium?

Greenish
2010-06-19, 06:32 PM
The prereq for trollblooded is actually a human from that region.Aww shucks. Are you sure?

lsfreak
2010-06-19, 06:33 PM
Aww shucks. Are you sure?

I thought you could qualify for feats from other regions, provided you have Knowledge (local: <region>) 2 ranks.

Knaight
2010-06-19, 06:33 PM
Well, "as powerful as possible" is a bit tricky, because that's Pun-Pun.

Except for Pun-Pun only achieves the goal for as powerful as possible, whereas it was "as powerful as possible" within a goal, so obviously one couldn't just betray a concept. Which is what Pun-Pun does to every concept other than 'as powerful as possible" or similar.

Now, on the specific goals. Goal #2, is it 1 character we are trying to push through an adventure intended for level 5 plus, or a party of level 1s. Furthermore, can he/she/they level up during the adventure as normal, or are we restricting that. Lastly, pick an adventure.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 06:37 PM
Except for Pun-Pun only achieves the goal for as powerful as possible, whereas it was "as powerful as possible" within a goal, so obviously one couldn't just betray a concept.Well, if the goal is just to succeed in something (such as beating a cr 9 opponent or an adventure meant for level 5 characters), Pun-Pun can do it.

You'd want to specifically disqualify Pun-Pun.

Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 06:39 PM
Long Story: You use this:

And roll a Knowlege (religion) check to find out that you can summon Pazuzu by saying his name 3 times. Pazuzu likes corrupting paladins. You wish for a LE Candle of Invocation. Then follow the flowchart.

What is Pazuzu? From what book?

Escheton
2010-06-19, 06:42 PM
Aww shucks. Are you sure?

yup, can't link the source right now as I seem to have lost it though.

edit, found one http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Troll_Blooded

no human there. Though I am still sure it was restricted to humans. weird

Bayar
2010-06-19, 06:48 PM
What is Pazuzu? From what book?

Pazuzu, demon prince of the 503rd layer of the Abyss. (taken from Google, dont lynch me).

You can find him in Fiendish Codex I.

Knaight
2010-06-19, 06:52 PM
Well, if the goal is just to succeed in something (such as beating a cr 9 opponent or an adventure meant for level 5 characters), Pun-Pun can do it.

You'd want to specifically disqualify Pun-Pun.

Yeah, I was thinking goal more in the idea of a goal to optimize for, conceptually, than something to do. For those two, might as well assume practical optimization only. That Pun Pun is TO should not need to be pointed out to anyone.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 06:52 PM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/rect4247-1.png

I drew this myself :smallcool:

Do you mind if I sig this?

Knaight
2010-06-19, 06:55 PM
Might want to check the allowed picture dimensions first, its a bit tall.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 06:57 PM
Yeah, I was thinking goal more in the idea of a goal to optimize for, conceptually, than something to do. For those two, might as well assume practical optimization only.Makes sense.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 07:00 PM
Might want to check the allowed picture dimensions first, its a bit tall.

It fits. I checked. :smalltongue:

Rothen
2010-06-19, 07:01 PM
You'd want to specifically disqualify Pun-Pun.

No point. He'll just become immune to disqualification. :smallamused:

But yeah. Really now people, Pun-Pun is nothing but theoretical information. He doesn't have to be brought up more than once in a thread like this.

Draz74
2010-06-19, 07:02 PM
Assuming you want to optimize:


Combat ability and survivability
Not worrying about scaling well to higher levels
Being overall useful to a party in a variety of situations
Not using ridiculous TO cheese like Pun-Pun


... then I think overall the most optimized Level 1 build is an Incarnate with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Dissolving Spittle). 3d6 acid damage, at-will, as a ranged touch attack, is nasty at Level 1. And you're even decent at something else via another Soulmeld!

Bayar
2010-06-19, 07:02 PM
Do you mind if I sig this?

I dont mind, just credit me :biggrin:

Greenish
2010-06-19, 07:06 PM
... then I think overall the most optimized Level 1 build is an Incarnate with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Dissolving Spittle). 3d6 acid damage, at-will, as a ranged touch attack, is nasty at Level 1. And you're even decent at something else via another Soulmeld!And you still have 3 more feats to play with, as Azurin with two flaws.

Morph Bark
2010-06-19, 07:07 PM
Pazuzu, demon prince of the 503rd layer of the Abyss. (taken from Google, dont lynch me).

You can find him in Fiendish Codex I.

1st layer actually. He supposedly owns 1001 closets.

Rule (layer) one of the Abyss is: thou shalt not challenge Pazuzu's sexuality.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-19, 07:09 PM
I thought you could qualify for feats from other regions, provided you have Knowledge (local: <region>) 2 ranks.

That rule was taken away in Players Guide to Faerun.

Draz74
2010-06-19, 07:18 PM
And you still have 3 more feats to play with, as Azurin with two flaws.

Well, one of those three has to be something that gives you more essentia, so you can fill your Dissolving Spittle all the way. But that's not much of a restriction for an incarnum character (does anyone not take Bonus Essentia?).

EDIT: I guess if you want to have a prayer of beating a well-played Druid, though, one of those other three feats had also better be Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Things will be messy/interesting if the Druid picks the same feat ...

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 07:21 PM
Goal #1: Beat a moster of CR 9 or higher.

Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm), CR 9.

Human Wizard 1.
Stats: Assume an INT of 16 and a DEX of 14.
Feats: Improved Initiative, Precocious Apprentice(Ray of Stupidity).
Spells: Ray of Stupidity, True Strike, don't care about the rest.
Familiar: Humming Bird
Pre-cast True Strike at the morning of everyday. Make no attack rolls until you encounter the Roc.
Turn 1: Win Initiative(+8 vs +2). Ready an action to cast Ray of Stupidity when it comes into range.
Turn 1.1: Cast Ray of Stupidity. 1d6 averages to 3.5, but 1/20th of the time you'll automatically miss and 1/6th of the time you'll roll a 1. 2 or higher instantly wins the encounter.

And that's just off the top of my head. More effort involved could probably ensure a win.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 07:24 PM
(does anyone not take Bonus Essentia?).I seem to recall it having a level requirement though. You'd use some other [Incarnum] feat, naturally.

Draz74
2010-06-19, 07:26 PM
I seem to recall it having a level requirement though. You'd use some other [Incarnum] feat, naturally.

Drat, you're right. :smallfrown: Oh well. Also, see note above (edited in) about what another of the feats should be.

Glimbur
2010-06-19, 07:28 PM
I'd want to burn a feat on Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws just to give a larger hp buffer.

Akal Saris
2010-06-19, 10:28 PM
I made a bunch of these for the BG forums, since low level optimization is really my thing.

Here are two that I'm proud of, both based off of previous posters' ideas that I made into 1st level builds:

**** Trouserfang
Dwarf Cleric 1
Stats: Get a 18 Con (20 after stats).

Domains: Pride, Dwarf

Feats:
1: Great Fortitude [Dwarf domain]
1: Poison Healer

Fortitude save: +2 (base) +2 (dwarf) +5 (con) +2 (great fortitude) = +11. Pride domain: reroll 1's on saving throws.

What he does: Stuffs a bunch of tiny vipers down his pants. Vipers have a DC 11 poison, so he cannot fail the saving throw except on a 1, which he rerolls - so it requires two consecutive natural 1's to fail (at which point he takes 1 con damage). Then he punches himself in the pants. Every time they bite him and he succeeds a save vs. poison, he heals his con score minus the damage taken, or (5-1 = 4 HP). Unlimited non-magical healing in your pants!

Fatty Bumpo
NE Male Desert Half-Orc Sorcerer 1
Stats: High con and charisma, not really relevant
Flaw: Obese
Feats:
1: Vile Deformity
1B: Deformity: Obese [Flaw]

Familiar: Raven

Spells: Enlarge Person, Benign Transposition

How it works: Fatty is the maximum height for a half-orc and then the maximum weight (438 pds). Then the Obese flaw doubles that (876). Then Vile Deformity (Obese) triples that (or more, for 2,628). Then Enlarge Person multiplies that by 8 (which is why half-orc is better than warforged for this). By this point Fatty weighs 21,024 pounds. Then you send your raven 10-20ft over the opponent's head, and cast benign transposition with the raven. Fatty swaps places with the raven and then falls. A falling object deals 1d6 for every 200 pounds it weighs, so Fatty would deal about 105d6. However, there is a cap, so Fatty instead deals 20d6 'falling object' damage to opponents in the 10-ft square that fail a DC 15 reflex save to dodge him. Fatty meanwhile takes 1d6 or so subdual damage from falling (less with a tumble check).

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 10:40 PM
**** Trouserfang

Might I suggest naming him Richard?

PId6
2010-06-19, 10:43 PM
Fortitude save: +2 (base) +2 (dwarf) +5 (con) +2 (great fortitude) = +11. Pride domain: reroll 1's on saving throws.
Since it's DC 11, you only need +9 (roll a 2 and you succeed). That lets you change your domain or lower your Con to 16.


Fatty Bumpo
An alternative to Benign Transposition is wizard with Abrupt Jaunt. That lets you do it even more often each day, though you'll need to start closer to the enemy. You can use both methods though.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 10:44 PM
Since it's DC 11, you only need +9 (roll a 2 and you succeed). That lets you change your domain or lower your Con to 16.

If he can change his domain, then picking up Luck Domain gives him another reroll per day.

Glimbur
2010-06-19, 10:58 PM
If he can change his domain, then picking up Luck Domain gives him another reroll per day.

If you are allowed flaws you can do it, the Dwarf domain seems to be for Great Fortitude so you can take Poison Healer.

Coidzor
2010-06-19, 11:14 PM
Hmm. Should a new thread be started to vote up an "optimized but playable" party of 4-5 for trying out an adventure for level 5 characters?

What other than Pun-Pun would be good to get rid of to make the optimizing less absurdly broken? Test of Spite Banlist too narrow for this purpose or would it be good for this purpose as well?

faceroll
2010-06-19, 11:22 PM
Beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmage with versatile spell caster, heighten spell, and sanctum spell can cast third level spells.

Druid with a warbred riding dog and the feat wild cohort for another warbred riding dog basically has two level 1 fighters with 18 str and improved trip. It takes a free action and a move action to direct the both of them in combat, leaving the druid time to move or cast a spell.


Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm), CR 9.

Human Wizard 1.
Stats: Assume an INT of 16 and a DEX of 14.
Feats: Improved Initiative, Precocious Apprentice(Ray of Stupidity).
Spells: Ray of Stupidity, True Strike, don't care about the rest.
Familiar: Humming Bird
Pre-cast True Strike at the morning of everyday. Make no attack rolls until you encounter the Roc.
Turn 1: Win Initiative(+9 vs +2). Ready an action to cast Ray of Stupidity when it comes into range.
Turn 1.1: Cast Ray of Stupidity. 1d6 averages to 3.5, but 1/20th of the time you'll automatically miss and 1/6th of the time you'll roll a 1. 2 or higher instantly wins the encounter.

And that's just off the top of my head. More effort involved could probably ensure a win.

OP said no house rules.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 11:36 PM
OP said no house rules.

What house rules?

Coidzor
2010-06-19, 11:38 PM
What house rules?

True Strike only works if used before the end of the next round after it's cast by the text of the spell, at least on the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/truestrike.htm)


You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 11:40 PM
True Strike only works if used before the end of the next round after it's cast by the text of the spell, at least on the SRD.

Ah. I just looked for a time in the spell description, didn't find one and assumed it was whenever the next spell was cast.

Still. Any way to make sure the roc doesn't kill you for a round is enough to defeat a CR 9 encounter.

faceroll
2010-06-19, 11:55 PM
Ah. I just looked for a time in the spell description, didn't find one and assumed it was whenever the next spell was cast.

Still. Any way to make sure the roc doesn't kill you for a round is enough to defeat a CR 9 encounter.

Ray of Stupidity has a failure rate of 30% when using precocious apprentice. You've got a decent chance of taking out a Roc, more than any other class.

rockdeworld
2010-06-20, 12:31 AM
**** Trouserfang
Dwarf Cleric 1
Stats: Get a 18 Con (20 after stats).

Domains: Pride, Dwarf

Feats:
1: Great Fortitude [Dwarf domain]
1: Poison Healer

Fortitude save: +2 (base) +2 (dwarf) +5 (con) +2 (great fortitude) = +11. Pride domain: reroll 1's on saving throws.

What he does: Stuffs a bunch of tiny vipers down his pants. Vipers have a DC 11 poison, so he cannot fail the saving throw except on a 1, which he rerolls - so it requires two consecutive natural 1's to fail (at which point he takes 1 con damage). Then he punches himself in the pants. Every time they bite him and he succeeds a save vs. poison, he heals his con score minus the damage taken, or (5-1 = 4 HP). Unlimited non-magical healing in your pants!
It's not unlimited - he fails his save .25% of the time, and presumably the snakes would keep biting him (since they have no escape), so he'd be dead in 13 hours (20 con damage). And think of the torture :smallyuk::smalltongue:

To steal someone else's idea (from earlier in the thread),

Half-elf Expert 1
Traits: Honest, Illiterate (Diplomacy focus), Polite
Flaws: Noncombatant, Pathetic
Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Negotiator, Sacred Vow
Item: Masterwork Diplomacy Tool
Stats: Str 6, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 18
HP: 6
Skills: Diplomacy +22 (4 Cha + 4 Ranks + 3 Traits + 3 SF + 2 Negotiator + 2 Sacred Vow + 2 MW Tool + 2 Racial)

Ignoring Wish/Candle abuse, you can make any indifferent, intelligent creature into an ally 60% of the time (or unfriendlies into allies 10% of the time if not rushed). Encountering a Pit Fiend (which doesn't necessarily attack immediately, so say it's indifferent), diplomacy makes it into an ally. CR 20 encounter passed.

5th-level group adventure: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030629a

Plan: Use Diplomacy to collect the villagers 260gp. Hire 100 trained mercenary hirelings for a day (say level 1 warriors) and 1 dedicated searching hireling (303sp = 30.3 gp, 229.7 left). Go to the cave.

50 of the 100 warriors can easily win the first encounter (2 CR3 bug/fighters). Collect the 800 gp worth of items on their bodies. Have the searcher do all rooms you enter. Whether you fight the scorpions in room 2 or the insects in room 3 next, the other 50 warriors can easily beat them. Collect the items.

Go back to town, dismiss all hirelings, and sell the items. You have at least 1600gp. Find a 15th level wizard, and pay him 1200 to cast polymorph any object and turn you into a werewolf lord hybrid form (the duration is permanent). Go to town on the dungeon and bring back the celestial.

Arguably, the diplomacy is unnecessary for this and it can be done with any level 1 commoner, but meh. I fulfilled the goal :smalltongue:

Edit: And if you can be a medium outsider at level 1, the PAO can make you permanently an Astral Deva :smallbiggrin:

Knaight
2010-06-20, 01:06 AM
Somewhere, the line between PO and TO was crossed in that last post.

PId6
2010-06-20, 01:08 AM
Somewhere, the line between PO and TO was crossed in that last post.
I think it's when the word "Diplomacy" came up.

dgnslyr
2010-06-20, 01:21 AM
Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm), CR 9.

Human Wizard 1.
Stats: Assume an INT of 16 and a DEX of 14.
Feats: Improved Initiative, Precocious Apprentice(Ray of Stupidity).
Spells: Ray of Stupidity, True Strike, don't care about the rest.
Familiar: Humming Bird
Pre-cast True Strike at the morning of everyday. Make no attack rolls until you encounter the Roc.
Turn 1: Win Initiative(+8 vs +2). Ready an action to cast Ray of Stupidity when it comes into range.
Turn 1.1: Cast Ray of Stupidity. 1d6 averages to 3.5, but 1/20th of the time you'll automatically miss and 1/6th of the time you'll roll a 1. 2 or higher instantly wins the encounter.

And that's just off the top of my head. More effort involved could probably ensure a win.

Well, if you're going for Ray of Stupidity stupidity, you can hit a Triceratops with it, also CR 9, 1 INT only, and with a measly 7 touch AC to boot. Same effect, but if it hits, you have a dinosaur in a drooling coma, no matter what you roll. Interestingly enough, a Triceratops has a higher CR than a Tyrannosaurus, which is only CR8.

Link here for stats of the aforementioned dinos.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm

Escheton
2010-06-20, 05:51 AM
How do rageclaws and regenerate mix?
One says you don't get knocked out at 0 to -10, but still die on -10.
The other says you take subdual damage instead.
Can you get knocked out? do you die when on -10 subdual?

because if this is ruled well, we might have the unstoppable warrior

Greenish
2010-06-20, 06:46 AM
How do rageclaws and regenerate mix?Not much. Unless something bypasses your regeneration, Rage Claws won't come into play.

Vulaas
2010-06-20, 09:45 AM
Mega-swordsage'd.

Maybe I'll put something useful in here later.