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Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 06:53 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most powerful non-homebrew base class in dnd 3.5?

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 06:56 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most powerful non-homebrew base class in dnd 3.5?

Unfortunately, when it comes to "most powerful class," the only correct answers are Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Artificer. The Big 5 can leave pretty much everyone else in the dust.

A favorite class is another thing entirely, and is actually a matter of opinion. My personal favorite is still Wizard, though. :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-19, 06:57 PM
Unfortunately, when it comes to "most powerful class," the only correct answers are Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Artificer. The Big 5 can leave pretty much everyone else in the dust.

A favorite class is another thing entirely, and is actually a matter of opinion. My personal favorite is still Wizard, though. :smallbiggrin:

Don't forget Spell to Power Euridite!

For core, I'd say probably wizard. In general, outside of StP Euridite, I'd probably go Archivist or Wizard.

Ilmryn
2010-06-19, 06:59 PM
Don't forget Spell to Power Euridite!

For core, I'd say probably wizard. In general, outside of StP Euridite, I'd probably go Archivist or Wizard.

Why the wizard? A sorcerer is simpler and gets more spells per day.

Volthawk
2010-06-19, 07:00 PM
Why the wizard? A sorcerer is simpler and gets more spells per day.

But they have less versatility. They only have a fixed spells known, while Wizards change their spells each day.

Amphetryon
2010-06-19, 07:01 PM
Druid's advantage over the others of the Big 6 is that it's really HARD to screw up a Druid. You can tank with it, make summon-spammer, a buff-bot, or even a blaster with it right out of the box. Take Natural Spell, and you're set.

It's easier to make a sub-par Wizard or StP Erudite than it is to make a sub-par Druid.

gallagher
2010-06-19, 07:01 PM
Why the wizard? A sorcerer is simpler and gets more spells per day.because we are assuming that at 20th level, a wizard is smart enough to have items that will give it resistances (the sorc also has them, but is limited by his spells known while a wizard will have every type of attack available), have persisted buffs that give it better stats, has better skills because of a high INT, and has a limitless base of power, while a sorc merely has a list of spells known that wont even fill up half of a good spell book

EDIT: swordsaged, kinda.

and i still say a druid or a cleric can go toe-to-toe with non-cheesed wizards

Greenish
2010-06-19, 07:02 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most powerful non-homebrew base class in dnd 3.5?I'm going to go with druid. I've heard it's the weakest member of the big five, but then again it's ridiculously easy to break even before higher level spells.

[Edit]: Cursed ninjas!

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 07:02 PM
Why the wizard? A sorcerer is simpler and gets more spells per day.

Because A) the Wizard isn't bogged down by a set number of known spells, and can therefore have a much more expansive list, and B) with Focused Specialist, the Wizard can get just as many spells per day as a Sorc.

Don't get me wrong, the Sorcerer is still plenty powerful, it's just that the Wizard is more so.

Edit: Tier 5 class with Sudden Strike'd.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2010-06-19, 07:03 PM
Spells per day aren't important. Spells known are. Wizards, as someone here once put it, should aspire to be Batman.

Morph Bark
2010-06-19, 07:03 PM
Druid's advantage over the others of the Big 6 is that it's really HARD to screw up a Druid. You can tank with it, make summon-spammer, a buff-bot, or even a blaster with it right out of the box. Take Natural Spell, and you're set.

It's easier to make a sub-par Wizard or StP Erudite than it is to make a sub-par Druid.

And let's not forget a Psionic Artificer! Only hard to screw up if you forget to put your minion homunculus to work on dorjes and the like.

I so want to try a Psionic Artificer//Factotum in a Gestalt game sometime.

gallagher
2010-06-19, 07:04 PM
paladins are actually also powerful if you play them right (pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu)

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 07:05 PM
paladins are actually also powerful if you play them right (pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu)

That's not a Paladin. That's Pun-Pun.

Bayar
2010-06-19, 07:05 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most powerful non-homebrew base class in dnd 3.5?

Out of the big 6, Druid for being newbie friendly. Beginners wont go with a Cleric in melee or realise that a Wizard should not cast fireball every time. And they probably wont pick up something inherently complicated as an Archivist or an Artificier or a StP Erudite.

Mawhrin Skel
2010-06-19, 07:06 PM
What, in your opinion, is the most powerful non-homebrew base class in dnd 3.5?

You may want to read about the (unofficial) tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0).

Knaight
2010-06-19, 07:09 PM
I would say wizard at very high op, otherwise Druid. Druids have a lot of power for obvious reasons, between Wild Shape, Spellcasting, and their animal companion, but the Wizard spells are somewhat better, and as op increases the difference in spell power becomes more and more relevant.

Devmaar
2010-06-19, 07:09 PM
I can't judge power levels. This is a fact. But the ability to turn into a bear and then smite down your enemies with righteous fire must be quite good. Dontcha think?

Bayar
2010-06-19, 07:12 PM
I can't judge power levels. This is a fact. But the ability to turn into a bear and then smite down your enemies with righteous fire must be quite good. Dontcha think?

You forgot to mention that you do that while flying and having your pet T-Rex omnomnom the enemy.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 07:13 PM
I can't judge power levels. This is a fact. But the ability to turn into a bear and then smite down your enemies with righteous fire must be quite good. Dontcha think?

Don't forget that with the Animal Companion a Druid is basically a character and a half.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-19, 07:13 PM
How about at level 1?

I think it is a tie between the Warblade Crusader and swordsage, they have quite powerful abilities (relative to that level ) that can be "spammed" they have great survivality (especially the crusader) good or at leasr decent skill list and skill points.

Myou
2010-06-19, 07:15 PM
That's not a Paladin. That's Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun is a paladin. Level 1 human paladin is the build.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-19, 07:16 PM
How about at level 1?

I think it is a tie between the Warblade Crusader and swordsage, they have quite powerful abilities (relative to that level ) that can be "spammed" they have great survivality (especially the crusader) good or at leasr decent skill list and skill points.Druid, Beguiler, Incarnate and Dragonfire Adept are all up there as well.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 07:16 PM
Pun-Pun is a paladin. Level 1 human paladin is the build.Kobold. Pun-Pun's power doesn't come from her class.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-19, 07:16 PM
I can't judge power levels. This is a fact. But the ability to turn into a bear and then smite down your enemies with righteous fire must be quite good. Dontcha think?

I'm a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm) riding a bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion) that shoots other bears. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm)

Private-Prinny
2010-06-19, 07:19 PM
Pun-Pun is a paladin. Level 1 human paladin is the build.Pun-Pun can also be a level 1 Ardent, as I brought up earlier. It's not the classes inherent abilities that make it powerful.

I'm a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm) riding a bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion) that shoots other bears. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm)

That is awesome. Can I put it in my quotebox?

Curmudgeon
2010-06-19, 07:20 PM
How about at level 1?

I think it is a tie between the Warblade Crusader and swordsage
Nope. It's the Druid, because their animal companion keeps them alive much more effectively than a selection of maneuvers. Two creatures with two full sets of actions each round is just hard to top.

Knaight
2010-06-19, 07:20 PM
Druid, Beguiler, Incarnate and Dragonfire Adept are all up there as well.

Druid particularly. Stupid broken animal companion. And warlocks are decent in a group, partially because of stuff like shatter dealing with petty little obstacles like walls. Though they go down in power quickly after level 1.

Dogmantra
2010-06-19, 07:21 PM
That is awesome. Can I put it in my quotebox?

I wouldn't. It's a bare-faced lie. (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-19, 07:22 PM
Ok after druid, I stand by my point that the three ToB classes are the most powerful at level 1

Myou
2010-06-19, 07:34 PM
Ok after druid, I stand by my point that the three ToB classes are the most powerful at level 1

What about a wizard/sorcerer who pumps up his save DC and uses colour spray? AoE Save or lose, 3+ times a day.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-19, 07:35 PM
Ok after druid, I stand by my point that the three ToB classes are the most powerful at level 1My case for the rest of of my previous list:

Beguiler: Spontaneously casts from fourteen first level spells known, which includes many (if not most) of the typical Batman first level spells. Notable missing spells are Grease, which I must point out lasts for one round at level one, Ray of Enfeeblement, which really only comes into its own at mid levels, and Enlarge Person, which is nice but can cause squeezing problems. Has better HD and armor than a wizard, and generally has more skill points than (and a similar skill list to) a rogue. A first level party of Druid/Beguiler covers all four basic roles - meat shield, healbi..[edit: healbot], skill monkey, and batman - without missing a beat.

Incarnate: At will touch attack for large amounts of acid damage at level one is pretty nifty.

Dragonfire Adept: With Entangling Exhalation, you have an at-will Entangle+AoE damage effect at level 1. Again, very nifty.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-06-19, 08:06 PM
Core only? Wizard, Cleric and Druid. All sources? Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist and Artificer. Nothing can beat the big 5, at least in D&D. Chuck Norris stands a fair chance....ok, a FAR more then fair chance... of beating them, but he has a divine rank so high that not even the other deities let alone mortals can conceive it. In all seriousness, though, the big 5 are just extremely powerful and are high above any other class in the game, bar none. Nothing can compare, really.

Mongoose87
2010-06-19, 08:21 PM
Core only? Wizard, Cleric and Druid. All sources? Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist and Artificer. Nothing can beat the big 5, at least in D&D. Chuck Norris stands a fair chance....ok, a FAR more then fair chance... of beating them, but he has a divine rank so high that not even the other deities let alone mortals can conceive it. In all seriousness, though, the big 5 are just extremely powerful and are high above any other class in the game, bar none. Nothing can compare, really.

Chuck Norris is an Artificer//Unarmed Swordsage in a world of non-gestalted people.

Frog Dragon
2010-06-19, 08:27 PM
Chuck Norris is an Artificer//Unarmed Swordsage in a world of non-gestalted people.
I had a warforged Artificer//Unarmed Swordsage as a character on these boards once. It was awesome.:smallbiggrin:

Myou
2010-06-19, 08:29 PM
Chuck Norris is an Artificer//Unarmed Swordsage in a world of non-gestalted people.

Pfft, he's a level 3 monk.

Zeta Kai
2010-06-19, 09:25 PM
I'm going to be a blasphemous heretic & say that the strongest base class at level 20 is the Truenamer. Say what you will about that that broken little class, but it has one ace in the hole: at-will gate. Bring it on.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-19, 09:29 PM
I'm going to be a blasphemous heretic & say that the strongest base class at level 20 is the Truenamer. Say what you will about that that broken little class, but it has one ace in the hole: at-will gate. Bring it on.

Well, technically not at-will, if only in the sense that the Law of Repetition (or whatever it's called) will eventually build up to the point where it'll be impossible for you to make the Truespeak check. That could be a long time, though, and thus a lot of gates....:smallannoyed:


EDIT: Oh, and as noted, the Law of Sequence, keeping you at 1 gate at a time. The wizard gets as many as he has 9th level slots to spend on them.

Flickerdart
2010-06-19, 09:30 PM
I'm going to be a blasphemous heretic & say that the strongest base class at level 20 is the Truenamer. Say what you will about that that broken little class, but it has one ace in the hole: at-will gate. Bring it on.
Law of Sequence means you only get one Gate. The Wizard gets 20 Gates, and that wasn't even the Wizard but a Simulacrum of his Astral Projected clone's Astral Projected clone.

PId6
2010-06-19, 09:34 PM
Law of Sequence means you only get one Gate. The Wizard gets 20 Gates, and that wasn't even the Wizard but a Simulacrum of his Astral Projected clone's Astral Projected clone.
Gate, when used for calling, has instantaneous duration, despite the 1 round/caster level term of service. As such, a Truenamer should be able to spam Gate as much as Law of Resistance allows.

Zeta Kai
2010-06-19, 10:10 PM
Gate, when used for calling, has instantaneous duration, despite the 1 round/caster level term of service. As such, a Truenamer should be able to spam Gate as much as Law of Resistance allows.

Hence teh brokenz. :smallsigh:

nolispe
2010-06-23, 05:07 AM
I would argue an artificer. An artificer, properly optimised, can basically be every single other tier one class.

Fortuna
2010-06-23, 05:18 AM
I would argue an artificer. An artificer, properly optimised, can basically be every single other tier one class.

Oh, it's always fun when you bring up things we've discussed IRL on the forums later...

I agree with nolispe on the condition that custom magic items, priced by the DMG guidelines or similar, are permitted. Otherwise, my money is on either Wizard or Archivist (probably Archivist).

Kurald Galain
2010-06-23, 05:49 AM
That is awesome. Can I put it in my quotebox?

I can't bear this thread any more...

Dogmantra
2010-06-23, 06:14 AM
I can't bear this thread any more...

I call shenanigans! I made a bear-based pun several posts earlier than yours!

Kurald Galain
2010-06-23, 06:53 AM
I call shenanigans! I made a bear-based pun several posts earlier than yours!

...and it was grisly.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-23, 07:32 AM
Vow of Poverty Druid. No DM will allow it, but they're nasty. VoP is normally underpowered, but a Wildshaped druid can cover all its weaknesses and can't use magic items anyway. The free boost to AC alone is worth it.

Gnaeus
2010-06-23, 07:46 AM
Vow of Poverty Druid. No DM will allow it, but they're nasty. VoP is normally underpowered, but a Wildshaped druid can cover all its weaknesses and can't use magic items anyway. The free boost to AC alone is worth it.

You are way, way, way, way, wrong. A WS druid can easily take off his items and have a companion put them on after he changes forms. The more sophisticated approach involves Wildling Clasps, the items in CChamp and MIC that specifically state that they function while in wildshape, and armor with the wild property. A wildshaped druid, like anyone else, is better with WBL than Vow of Poverty.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-23, 08:00 AM
You are way, way, way, way, wrong. A WS druid can easily take off his items and have a companion put them on after he changes forms. The more sophisticated approach involves Wildling Clasps, the items in CChamp and MIC that specifically state that they function while in wildshape, and armor with the wild property. A wildshaped druid, like anyone else, is better with WBL than Vow of Poverty.

On the other hand, a Druid with VoP beats out any other class with VoP.

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 08:39 AM
On the other hand, a Druid with VoP beats out any other class with VoP.

I still give Spell-to-Power Erudites the edge with VoP, especially at later levels. Erudites can revise reality as well as any Wizard or Psion, and can do it all without material components. They also have a much easier time with action abuse than Druids do - Synchronicity, Foresight, Contingency, Anticipatory Strike, Inconstant Location, Time Regression, Forced Dream etc. The Druid may have his animal companion and summons, but they can't do much inside spammable forcecages that don't need material components, for instance.

Gnaeus
2010-06-23, 08:44 AM
On the other hand, a Druid with VoP beats out any other class with VoP.

It isn't as big a trap as it otherwise would be, I agree. It is a passable option in a game with no wildling clasps or way below WBL. But it certainly doesn't make Druid any stronger.

Akal Saris
2010-06-23, 12:18 PM
I'd say a properly optimized cleric is the strongest base class overall from 1-20. The wizard's spell list is better for a lot of things, but with the right domains and feats a cleric can have most of the best wizard spells while having a superior chassis with better HD, saves, and whatnot.

That said, my favorite of the big 5 is easily the druid. Simple, effective, strong from 1-20. Probably the strongest level 1 class too in my opinion.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 12:22 PM
Recent experiences have driven me to revise my already high opinion of the wizard skyward.

Telonius
2010-06-23, 12:24 PM
...and it was grisly.

Oh come on, why must you be his polar opposite in the argument? It's not like you need to pander to the crowd.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 12:26 PM
Thanks for another kodiak moment.

Thrawn183
2010-06-23, 12:33 PM
I gotta jump on the druid bandwagon. HP, armor, animal companion, wild shape... all these things make me think campaign worlds should have way more druids than other PC classes because they're the most likely to survive low level.

Ingus
2010-06-23, 12:39 PM
My absolute favourite is Artificer. There's that feeling of doing something... wrong... changing ability bonuses, for example, or adding special powers to weapons and armors, not to mention crafting magic items with no hit on XP.
Also, homebrew magic items, crafted with DMG, page 282 and followings, can be utterly broken.

But this is just an opinion.

And besides, Wizard + Initiate of Sevenfold Veils and Incantatrix can be... yes, funny. :smallbiggrin:

Ruinix
2010-06-23, 12:46 PM
caster ====> druid. very adaptable for almost every need.

full bab ====> ranger. have 2 paths, can cast, have animal companion.

skill monkey ====> factotum. can emulate any caster, and is for far the best skill monkey for social and dungeoning.

Greenish
2010-06-23, 12:48 PM
I gotta jump on the druid bandwagon. HP, armor, animal companion, wild shape... all these things make me think campaign worlds should have way more druids than other PC classes because they're the most likely to survive low level.Alas, the nearly irresistible temptation of teaching druidic to non-druids keeps their numbers low.

[Edit]:
full bab ====> ranger. have 2 paths, can cast, have animal companion.You, sir, are sorely mistaken.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 12:51 PM
full bab ====> ranger. have 2 paths, can cast, have animal companion.


Of the two paths, I'll agree that Archery is good. TWF...well, it's lackluster. Their casting helps the Archery be good, but I don't think it's mentionable on it's own. Not since they're a half-caster, at any rate. And the animal companion's pretty much a joke, since it's based on 1/2 one's ranger level.

tiercel
2010-06-23, 12:52 PM
You may want to read about the (unofficial) tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0).

Does anyone really think this is still "unofficial"? The tier system is generally treated with more established respect and agreement on these boards than the core rules or indeed pretty much any other set of statements or rules about 3.5 D&D.

My own personal experience in campaigns has mostly been at low-to-mid levels, and while I'm not saying the tier system is *wrong*, the difference between tiers is much less at level 5 or 7 than it is at level 16.

I actually think that D&D ...mostly... works not too horribly from levels 1-12 or so. After/around this point, more spellcasting is just increasingly so much better than more of virtually anything else that little-or-no-spellcasting classes begin to drop more and more not only to "support" but "redundant" status. (I know many people disagree and would argue that this takes place at level 7 or 5 or less, I am only speaking from experience in campaigns I have played in.)

Really, though, the tier system is mostly a fancy way of saying that "the higher level you go in D&D, the more spellcasting wins."

This should not be particularly surprising since spellcasting (or manifesting, or whatever) mechanic is a more flexible one than non-spellcasting combat mechanics. In particular, the more you allow literalistic RAW readings of core rules and the more you allow cherry-picking of additional spells on top of core, the more it tends to benefit the already more-flexible spellcaster over his less-flexible brethren.

This isn't to argue "if you can fix it, it isn't broken," this is to say "the more complex and flexible a mechanic is, the more important it is to have an actual DM to referee it."

Greenish
2010-06-23, 12:59 PM
In particular, the more you allow literalistic RAW readings of core rules and the more you allow cherry-picking of additional spells on top of core, the more it tends to benefit the already more-flexible spellcaster over his less-flexible brethren.

This isn't to argue "if you can fix it, it isn't broken," this is to say "the more complex and flexible a mechanic is, the more important it is to have an actual DM to referee it."I don't know, you don't need hugely literalistic reading to make Gate or Planar Binding make the non-casters redundant.

Also, tier system is nice for avoiding huge power disparities.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-23, 02:57 PM
I'm going to have to go with the Spell to Power Erudite. In terms of versatility you have a degree of sponteneity while maintaining a level of versatility that, if taken to it's extreme can encompass every spell and power in the game.

That, and I'm a sucker for anything that lets a Warforged store his Psycrystal in his body and create an Affinity Field->Synchronicity Loop with his psi-crystal. To me it's more elegant than the arcane equivalent of looping Celerities.

Frosty
2010-06-23, 03:06 PM
any more bear puns, and there will be pandamonium.

tiercel
2010-06-23, 03:07 PM
I don't know, you don't need hugely literalistic reading to make Gate or Planar Binding make the non-casters redundant.

Also, tier system is nice for avoiding huge power disparities.

Well, I'm not going to try and even argue with gate, because it's gate and also because there's almost nothing a nonspellcaster can do at level 17-18 that is anywhere near as awesomely destructive as many 9th level spells.

As for planar binding... well... if a player can just have his character bind and order around critters at will, without anything ever going wrong (escape or any kind of subversion or ill-will coming back to haunt them) then it's kind of a matter of the DM not living up to the genre. People who bind creatures against their will willy-nilly are *itching* for karmic retribution of some kind and the DM is in charge of karma.

(And if we are talking about the old planar binding for wishes thing, if such a thing were possible in a campaign world, someone would have done it before the PCs.)

I'm not saying the tier thing is useless, I'm just saying that a lot of people look at building characters from a 20-level standpoint, when a lot of actual campaigns take place much of their time well down in the single-digit levels. Wizards don't render half of all other characters obsolete instantly just by being rolled up at level 1, and clerics (while undoubtedly strong) aren't unavoidably and instantly ClericZilla (especially without DMM: Persist + nightsticks).

Yes, you have to be careful even at low-to-mid levels about mixing pure spellcasting and less/no-spellcasting characters in the same party, but that's a function of spellcasters simply having more specific tricks available which are either abusable or broken. It just comes back to "the higher the level, the more spellcasting wins."

Tavar
2010-06-23, 03:17 PM
If they do so, it's their failing, not the tier system. If one actually reads it, the creator mentions how this is mainly looking at more mid-game levels. I forget the exact range, but I believe he says from around 3rd to 10th. Of course, that's still a large portion of the range you're talking about.




(And if we are talking about the old planar binding for wishes thing, if such a thing were possible in a campaign world, someone would have done it before the PCs.)
Before ~1903 man wasn't able to do powered flight. Obviously, that still holds true today....

Theodoxus
2010-06-23, 03:36 PM
Really? You just compared spellcasting to powered flight?

I want to play in your game, where I am the first wizard evar!

Btw, strongest is really broad. I mean, straight up combat? I'd take druid. But for social? A nice diplomancer will go much farther. For a skulking game, rogue at lower levels and factotum at higher - though beguiler works really well if you're facing humanoids. (I'd prefer factotum if it's a pure dungeon crawl where you're facing mindless undead and oozes and such.)

So, less generalities and more specifics.

Oh, and usually a level 1 charging fighter with power attack and a greatsword will win against any tier 1 class - guaranteed if they win initiative. So level matters when comparing these in a pvp fashion.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 03:37 PM
any more bear puns, and there will be pandamonium.

Yes- to minimise groans, puns need to be of good koalaty.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 03:44 PM
Really? You just compared spellcasting to powered flight?

I want to play in your game, where I am the first wizard evar!
Strawman in 3, 2, 1...

I'm not saying that. Merely arguing against using "if it were possible someone else would have done it" as a justification.


Oh, and usually a level 1 charging fighter with power attack and a greatsword will win against any tier 1 class - guaranteed if they win initiative. So level matters when comparing these in a pvp fashion.
Unless they miss. ON the other hand, if the Tier 1 class wins Init and throws, say, color spray, then the Fighter has a very good change of dieing. Level 1 and to an extent level 2 are rocket tag, plain and simple.

Lans
2010-06-23, 04:43 PM
Well, technically not at-will, if only in the sense that the Law of Repetition (or whatever it's called) will eventually build up to the point where it'll be impossible for you to make the Truespeak check. That could be a long time, though, and thus a lot of gates....:smallannoyed:


EDIT: Oh, and as noted, the Law of Sequence, keeping you at 1 gate at a time. The wizard gets as many as he has 9th level slots to spend on them.
Actually, a truenamer can heighten its spells to get around that. It also diverts law of resistance in that it goes at 0,+2,+4,+4,+6,+6,+8,+8,+8

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 05:02 PM
Actually, a truenamer can heighten its spells to get around that. It also diverts law of resistance in that it goes at 0,+2,+4,+4,+6,+6,+8,+8,+8
According to an extremely suspect ruling that I'm not sure anyone honestly believes is RAI. Not that the Truenamer couldn't use it; he can use anything he can get. But seriously, you really think a heightened Utterance doesn't count as the same Utterance for the sake of the Law of Resistance?

Lans
2010-06-23, 06:14 PM
According to an extremely suspect ruling that I'm not sure anyone honestly believes is RAI. Not that the Truenamer couldn't use it; he can use anything he can get. But seriously, you really think a heightened Utterance doesn't count as the same Utterance for the sake of the Law of Resistance?

I would say that the wording is quite clear.

Il_Vec
2010-06-23, 09:45 PM
I would say that the wording is quite clear.

Only if you also consider Enervation and Heightened Enervation different spells. But, I did not expect to see Truenamer in a most powerful class discussion.

Lans
2010-06-23, 09:58 PM
Only if you also consider Enervation and Heightened Enervation different spells. But, I did not expect to see Truenamer in a most powerful class discussion.
Is their a quote that says this is the case? Because with utterances their is a passage that says exactly that.