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Hague
2010-06-19, 11:04 PM
Okay, a pair of 'em:

If a Soul Knife has a Psychic Strike (say 2d8) charged and ready to go and she performs a Bladewind attack, does the Psychic Strike apply to all creatures targeted by the Bladewind or just one target? The description says that it applies to the "first melee attack" but since the Bladewind applies "a melee attack to all enemies within reach" then which one is the first or are all of them the first attack and therefore benefit from the extra damage? (and possibly Knife to the Soul)

Also, when a Mind Blade is lost, say to being 'dropped' and it dissipates or is destroyed in a sundering attempt (for whatever reason) does that mean that another blade produced is counted as a separate weapon? What I'm getting at is that the Lucky Mind Blade enhancement allows for a reroll on an attack roll with the Mind Blade once per day. However, if the Mind Blade is considered a new weapon, then would it have another use of the reroll? Potentially you could have one reroll every round (since you can only form the blade once per round) by dropping the Mind Blade and forming a new one as a free action (or move action at early levels)

AslanCross
2010-06-19, 11:16 PM
The soulknife is so bad that I'm tempted to say yes to both of your questions, since they don't really break it.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-19, 11:25 PM
Okay, a pair of 'em:

If a Soul Knife has a Psychic Strike (say 2d8) charged and ready to go and she performs a Bladewind attack, does the Psychic Strike apply to all creatures targeted by the Bladewind or just one target? The description says that it applies to the "first melee attack" but since the Bladewind applies "a melee attack to all enemies within reach" then which one is the first or are all of them the first attack and therefore benefit from the extra damage? (and possibly Knife to the Soul)

Also, when a Mind Blade is lost, say to being 'dropped' and it dissipates or is destroyed in a sundering attempt (for whatever reason) does that mean that another blade produced is counted as a separate weapon? What I'm getting at is that the Lucky Mind Blade enhancement allows for a reroll on an attack roll with the Mind Blade once per day. However, if the Mind Blade is considered a new weapon, then would it have another use of the reroll? Potentially you could have one reroll every round (since you can only form the blade once per round) by dropping the Mind Blade and forming a new one as a free action (or move action at early levels)

On the first: Psychic strike is precision damage. Abilities that give you multiple attacks in one roll, like manyshot, only apply precision damage to one of them. Just pick one.
On the second: It'd probably go against the intention of the enhancement to let you "recharge" it by reforming the blade.

So, no to both. And if you want to play a soul knife, a psychic warrior with metaphysical claw is better at that.

tyckspoon
2010-06-19, 11:29 PM
On the first: Psychic strike is precision damage. Abilities that give you multiple attacks in one roll, like manyshot, only apply precision damage to one of them. Just pick one.



(Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)

Whut. :smallconfused:

Bladewind specifies that the mindblade fragments operate as per the normal mindblade. The rules are not specific, but I would read that as meaning that if the normal mindblade is charged with a Psychic Strike and would successfully discharge it on one target, than the Bladewind attack, if charge with a Psychic Strike, will discharge it on all qualifying targets as well.

Hague
2010-06-19, 11:32 PM
No, the Psychic Strike is NOT precision damage. It says clearly that it doesn't require the target to be flanked or denied dex and can be targeted at over 30 ft in range.


Psychic Strike (Su)

As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)

Edit: Ninja'd :P

And we are going by wording, not intent. If we went by intent then wish-loops wouldn't work, would they?

Assuming that it does work, then an Enlarged Soulknife could use Knife to the Soul on a group of Animals with 2d8 of his Psychic Strike damage to turn them into vegetables by targeting intelligence... hrm...

PId6
2010-06-20, 02:09 AM
Also, when a Mind Blade is lost, say to being 'dropped' and it dissipates or is destroyed in a sundering attempt (for whatever reason) does that mean that another blade produced is counted as a separate weapon?
Yes, you're making a completely new mind blade, so things like Lucky would "reset" as well.

That's what makes the Soulbow's Mind Arrows so hilarious.

Hague
2010-06-20, 04:40 AM
Here's another one, what happens if I have the effect of True Strike when I make a Bladewind attack?

PId6
2010-06-20, 04:46 AM
Here's another one, what happens if I have the effect of True Strike when I make a Bladewind attack?
It will affect the first attack you make during that Bladewind. You get to choose what order you attack them, so you choose which one the True Strike will apply to.

Nidogg
2010-06-20, 04:46 AM
True strike only counts on your next attack roll, unless the bladewind uses one attackroll for all opponents then true strike will only aply to one.
EDIt Ninja'd

true_shinken
2010-06-20, 09:51 AM
In my game, I had two soulknife players; only one of them actually got Bladewind. I allowed her to apply psychic strike damage to all attacks.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-20, 09:55 AM
Oopsie ...

Foryn Gilnith
2010-06-20, 09:55 AM
No, the Psychic Strike is NOT precision damage. It says clearly that it doesn't require the target to be flanked or denied dex and can be targeted at over 30 ft in range.
That is not a necessary condition for damage being counted as precision damage (see: Skirmish), nor is it a sufficient condition (see: Hit and Run Fighter ACF from DotU, IIRC).

true_shinken
2010-06-20, 09:57 AM
That is not a necessary condition for damage being counted as precision damage (see: Skirmish), nor is it a sufficient condition (see: Hit and Run Fighter ACF from DotU, IIRC).

I think when the class description says 'this is not precision damage', well, it is probably not precision damage...

Snake-Aes
2010-06-20, 09:58 AM
I think when the class description says 'this is not precision damage', well, it is probably not precision damage...

Yeah but if you want to be pedantic, precision damage is completely separate from the conditions that cause it. Skirmish and Sneak attack are both precision and rely on absolutely different conditions.

true_shinken
2010-06-20, 10:05 AM
Yeah but if you want to be pedantic, precision damage is completely separate from the conditions that cause it. Skirmish and Sneak attack are both precision and rely on absolutely different conditions.
That's pretty obvious. Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, Sneak Attack and Skirmish all have different conditions to trigger.
I only said psychic strike is not precision because it clearly says so in the description.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-20, 10:10 AM
That's pretty obvious. Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, Sneak Attack and Skirmish all have different conditions to trigger.
I only said psychic strike is not precision because it clearly says so in the description.

Look at your previous post. Your wording implies you thought "precision damage" means "flank". Otherwise your reply just doesn't add anything to what you quoted.

true_shinken
2010-06-20, 10:20 AM
Look at your previous post. Your wording implies you thought "precision damage" means "flank". Otherwise your reply just doesn't add anything to what you quoted.
You're just reading what is not there. I simply said it's not precision damage. Anyway, I tire of this.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-20, 10:23 AM
You're just reading what is not there. I simply said it's not precision damage. Anyway, I tire of this.

which has nothing to do with what you quoted when you said that.

But, as you say, we're just being pedantic.

Zombieboots
2010-06-20, 10:24 AM
So when I DM and one of my players wants to play a Soulknife I point them at two things, then let them decide.

First I point at Mind's Eye Expanded Class, pt 1: Which one feature allows you to pick a soulknife feat instead of gaining Psychic strikes.

Second I point them at the two feats Psycarnum Blade, and Psycarnum Infusion both from Magic Incarnum.
(Xd6 Insight Bonus Damage to you're mindblade until the beginning of your next turn.)

Then questions like this don't ever really come up anymore. Aside from "Why is the class a little weak" still, but every little bit helps.

But to directly answer your question. I'm in the Camp that says your Psychic strikes only affect the "First" target you Blood Wind, and yes dropping them "Resets" your mindblade.

Hague
2010-06-20, 10:35 AM
Yeah, I'm the one that posted the original statement about the conditionals of other types of precision damage, incorrectly I might add.

However, Psychic Strike is not precision damage, it is mind-affecting damage like Mind Thrust or Ego Whip. Knife to the Soul, (psychic strike ambush feat it seems) has the ability to KO a high hit dice critter by attacking its Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence. A dinosaur for instance could become brain-dead in one shot from it. Likewise for numerous powerful creatures. If you pick up the Mind Cleave feat you can restore your psychic strike every time you kill something, making you a dangerous character in mop-up situations. I'd consider picking up a few levels in a ToB class to flesh out this class a bit more meanwhile picking up levels in Illumine Soul.

Question: Are there any feats or class features out there that let you affect the minds of things normally immune to mind-affecting things? It'd be nice to be able to psychic strike an ooze.

DragonsAion
2010-06-20, 02:33 PM
From the SRD


Bladewind (Su)
At 9th level, a soulknife gains the ability to momentarily fragment his mind blade into numerous identical blades, each of which strikes at a nearby opponent.

As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack


I guess it comes down to how you define "regular mind blade" 1) A mindblade that has been charged with Psychic Strike is fragmented so each fragment works as a psychic strike mindblade or 2) the mindblade loses the psychic strike and simply acts as a normal mindblade.

the fact that it reads "Each fragment functions identically" seems to suggest that if you allow psychic strike to work on one then you have to allow it to work on them all.

2xMachina
2010-06-20, 02:39 PM
Hmm, the way I read it...

Roll 1 attack roll. Target: Everything in range. I'd say they all take Psychic Strike damage.

erikun
2010-06-20, 02:41 PM
In my game, I had two soulknife players; only one of them actually got Bladewind. I allowed her to apply psychic strike damage to all attacks.
I would keep allowing it. Honestly, that is the only way that any Whirlwind-like attacks will be useable in a fight. You might want to reconsider how Knife to the Soul works, though, to prevent your player from trying to instakill large groups of creatures. (3-4 INT damage to everything in range, every turn, is pretty brutal.)

Or not, if the game is fast-paced and opponents die easily anyways.

2xMachina
2010-06-20, 02:42 PM
Meh, solution to that is don't clump together.

Hague
2010-06-20, 04:45 PM
Well, as far as I can tell, there are no reach weapon Mind Blade feats, so at best you can get 8 guys around you (unless you're large or larger) so really it's not that strong. And as far as Knife to the Soul goes, you have to single-class it for at least 13 levels to get the ability, which by then guarantees that you'll be outpaced for damage output. Also, you can't do it every round since charging Psychic Strike takes a move action (or is free, if you have Mind Cleave and kill an enemy in the process) Since you can't kill anything directly with mental attribute damage, it's hard to dump all the Psychic Strike damage into attribute damage and still gain the benefits of Mind Cleave.

In regards to the mentioned Psycarnum feats, how does that work? If you use Psycarnum Infusion to power Psycarnum Blade, won't you lose the effect after your next round? Or is there some trick that I'm not getting?

Stegyre
2010-06-21, 12:21 PM
From the SRD


Bladewind (Su)
At 9th level, a soulknife gains the ability to momentarily fragment his mind blade into numerous identical blades, each of which strikes at a nearby opponent.

As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack


I guess it comes down to how you define "regular mind blade" 1) A mindblade that has been charged with Psychic Strike is fragmented so each fragment works as a psychic strike mindblade or 2) the mindblade loses the psychic strike and simply acts as a normal mindblade.

the fact that it reads "Each fragment functions identically" seems to suggest that if you allow psychic strike to work on one then you have to allow it to work on them all.
You left out some rather important, extra bolding there. The extra damage from Psychic Strike is a "bonus" (specifically, a damage bonus) granted by an "ability."

I agree with one of the first posters that soulknife is so weak that allowing it would not break anything, but by RAW, I don't see it happening.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-21, 12:25 PM
You forfeit bonus/extra attacks, not bonus modifiers to those.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 12:45 PM
""When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). ""

That just tells me that outside bonuses and feats don't work with the attack but normal class abilities do.

Anyway the soulknife is not a front-line warriorish class. It’s a more if a harassing skirmisher type. I played a fairly good soulknife that out lasted and believe it or not out killed the rest of the party just using the spring attack line of feats. The one level of barbarian helped too.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 12:47 PM
Anyway the soulknife is not a front-line warriorish class. It’s a more if a harassing skirmisher type. I played a fairly good soulknife that out lasted and believe it or not out killed the rest of the party just using the spring attack line of feats. The one level of barbarian helped too.
You didn't have a "good" soul knife (such a thing does not exist), you just had a very under-optimized party.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 12:58 PM
""When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). ""

That just tells me that outside bonuses and feats don't work with the attack but normal class abilities do.Outside bonuses and feats work, you just don't get more attacks.

arguskos
2010-06-21, 01:01 PM
You didn't have a "good" soul knife (such a thing does not exist), you just had a very under-optimized party.
Atavists aren't that bad. Sure, they're not optimized, but a Monk/Soulknife/Atavist can be pretty decent and very very enjoyable, especially if you do the Buddha Palm thing I saw awhile back (make giant unarmed strikes with your Mind Blade through Reshape Mind Blade, combine Monk/Soulknife progressions and mix with Atavist to do some truly silly things; add Throw Mind Blade and you start hurling Gargantuan Unarmed Strike Mind Blades at people).

Chen
2010-06-21, 01:05 PM
""When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). ""

That just tells me that outside bonuses and feats don't work with the attack but normal class abilities do.


You're parsing the sentence wrong. You don't forfeit "any bonus" and "any extra attacks" your forfeit "any (bonus or extra) attacks". Its only free attacks that are lost (presumably to counter the bag of rats type situation that can occur with Whirlwind attack and great cleave).

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-21, 01:50 PM
The psychic strike damage does indeed apply to every attack in a bladewind. It states that each shard is completely identical to the mindblade itself, so if it was charged with psychic strike, your shards are. They also have all the same ehancements, power attack and combat expertise etc. etc. etc.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 02:28 PM
You didn't have a "good" soul knife (such a thing does not exist), you just had a very under-optimized party.

Riight, the party was under-powered. That had to be it and there just can't be another reason. After all, unless you min/max the heck out of a class it's utterly useless. There’s just no other way to play the game is there?

Sorry, my group and I play for fun and enjoyment not to see you who can out kill or damage who or to see how fast we can finish the game.

A harassing skirmisher type is how I played my soulkinfe and it did the job quite well.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 02:34 PM
Riight, the party was under-powered. That had to be it and there just can't be another reason. After all, unless you min/max the heck out of a class it's utterly useless. There’s just no other way to play the game is there?
You know, putting words in others' mouths is pretty rude.

I did not say that. But on an objective scale of the power expected, and possible, of PCs, the Soul Knife does terribly. It offers extremely little, far less than is expected from a class. It is weaker than it is supposed to be, and much weaker than even moderately powerful classes.


Sorry, my group and I play for fun and enjoyment not to see you who can out kill or damage who or to see how fast we can finish the game.

A harassing skirmisher type is how I played my soulkinfe and it did the job quite well.
Congratulations, you had fun. That's all that matters. But for the purposes of this discussion, the fact that you had fun means nothing about the power of the Soul Knife.

arguskos
2010-06-21, 02:56 PM
DW, two things.

1. You ignored the Buddha Palm Atavist. He is :smallfrown:.

2 (and this is really towards a bunch of folks). Soulknife is one word. :smallannoyed: This is a pet peeve, but really folks, it's on the SRD. It's not Soul Knife (that'd be a neato Prestige Class though, so you could play a Soulknife/Soul Knife/Soul Eater or something :smallbiggrin:).

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 03:23 PM
I'm being rude? The only point your post made was to say "the soulknife sucks and your party sucked" and I'm the rude one?

In the interest of not turning this thread into one big argument I'm ending this debate here and now.

My suggestions on playing a soulknife is to take one level of barbarian for fast movement and then take the spring attack line of feats. That way you can jump in, do damage, and jump out or you can go the TWF way for more damage.

On a side note, don't forget that you can still use all simple weapons. So if you want you can focus on using those and use your mindblade as a backup.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 03:29 PM
My suggestions on playing a soulknife is to take one level of barbarian for fast movement and then take the spring attack line of feats. That way you can jump in, do damage, and jump out or you can go the TWF way for more damage.Spring Attack for damage, right. TWF for more damage, right.

:smallamused:

nekomata2
2010-06-21, 03:37 PM
Spring Attack would only give you one attack, so TWF isn't useful there. Granted, there is the two-weapon pounce feat from PHB2 that lets you attack with both on a charge. But if you're dipping barbarian, you can always give up fast movement for Pounce, thanks to CC.

And if you are wielding simple weapons and using the mindblade for backup, why play a soulknife at all? The PsyWar ACF from Mind's Eye allows your call weapon power to function pretty well in that regard.

The soulknife was a PrC in 3.0 though, so to ask a question related to the Soulknife, has anyone remade the prestige class for 3.5, or made something similiar? It would also be interesting the make a soulknife the TOB/Psionics gish class......

Coidzor
2010-06-21, 03:38 PM
DW, two things.

1. You ignored the Buddha Palm Atavist. He is :smallfrown:.

2 (and this is really towards a bunch of folks). Soulknife is one word. :smallannoyed: This is a pet peeve, but really folks, it's on the SRD. It's not Soul Knife (that'd be a neato Prestige Class though, so you could play a Soulknife/Soul Knife/Soul Eater or something :smallbiggrin:).

Now, now pupa-tanks, you shouldn't eat your soul without using your fork too now.

And remember to chew it up good with your soul teeth too, ya.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 03:39 PM
@ arguskos: Sorry. I know nothing about Atavists, and I was following the spelling used in the thread without checking it. :smallfrown: :smallwink:

@ DragonsAion: Again, that is not what I said. I made an objective statement about the Soulknife, and about any group that falls to a Soulknife. As the Soulknife is effectively weaker than its CR would indicate, it is underpowered. If one solo'd an entire group, they must also be underpowered. Since the classes involved were not inherently weak, that means they were not being played at anything like their potential, hence "under-optimized".

This is not a condemnation of you or your group or the fun you had. You are welcome to have your fun wherever you can find it, and a lot of people find that optimizing their games ruins what they like about D&D (see Mike_G's thread on this, for example). There is nothing wrong with that. I meant no insult. I merely was offering a counter to your claim that the Soulknife was not a weak class, by pointing out that your anecdote more likely implies a lack of optimization on your party's part, than any special magic power that the Soulknife has and every optimizer ever has missed.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-21, 03:40 PM
Spring Attack would only give you one attack, so TWF isn't useful there. Granted, there is the two-weapon pounce feat from PHB2 that lets you attack with both on a charge. But if you're dipping barbarian, you can always give up fast movement for Pounce, thanks to CC.

And if you are wielding simple weapons and using the mindblade for backup, why play a soulknife at all? The PsyWar ACF from Mind's Eye allows your call weapon power to function pretty well in that regard.

The soulknife was a PrC in 3.0 though, so to ask a question related to the Soulknife, has anyone remade the prestige class for 3.5, or made something similiar? It would also be interesting the make a soulknife the TOB/Psionics gish class......

Well, there's the soulbow, that shifts your focus to ranged, and if I recall correctly, it's enhancements stack with the sk's and progress separately.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 03:43 PM
Well, there's the soulbow, that shifts your focus to ranged, and if I recall correctly, it's enhancements stack with the sk's and progress separately.Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) is a pretty cool guy. eh shoots arrows and doesnt afraid of anything

arguskos
2010-06-21, 03:51 PM
@ arguskos: Sorry. I know nothing about Atavists, and I was following the spelling used in the thread without checking it. :smallfrown: :smallwink:
...wut I mean like it but seriously wut is this heresy. :smallannoyed:

Atavist is a PrC from Races of Eberron that is a Monk/Soulknife Theurge, for lack of a better descriptor. It advances Monk stuff and Mind Blade at once. Now, if you have an Unarmed Strike Mind Blade (get the Shape Mind Blade feat to do it, don't recall source, sorry), Atavist is like Mind Blade crack. It's actually surprisingly effective. I made an Atavist for an arena once that was character level 8 and he was preeeetty scary (ate everyone he fought, including some War clerics and a Druid+Bear companion; was taken down by an entire adventuring party eventually).

Very much worth checking out. It makes Monk/Soulknife playable! :smallbiggrin:

nekomata2
2010-06-21, 04:03 PM
Atavist is actually from Races of Eberron, so CompPsi is still mostly devoid of fun stuff. :smallamused: As for Unarmed Strike Mind Blade.........thats just weird. Doesn't having a mind blade defeat the whole purpose of unarmed strike and.......ah whatever........ it's not like it would break either one.

As for responses to my query, not Soulbow, never Soulbow! I don't know why, but that prestige class just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, its definitely an improvement......maybe it's because the best way to improve the semi-melee class is to make him stand back....but I just don't like it. Maybe homebrewing such a PrC is something to do this summer......

Edit: Aww, you caught your mistake before I finished my post....

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 04:09 PM
...wut I mean like it but seriously wut is this heresy. :smallannoyed:

Atavist is a PrC from CPsi (not actually as devoid of fun stuff as previously indicated) that is a Monk/Soulknife Theurge, for lack of a better descriptor. It advances Monk stuff and Mind Blade at once. Now, if you have an Unarmed Strike Mind Blade (get the Shape Mind Blade feat to do it, don't recall source, sorry), Atavist is like Mind Blade crack. It's actually surprisingly effective. I made an Atavist for an arena once that was character level 8 and he was preeeetty scary (ate everyone he fought, including some War clerics and a Druid+Bear companion; was taken down by an entire adventuring party eventually).

Very much worth checking out. It makes Monk/Soulknife playable! :smallbiggrin:

Argus, I love ya man, but you're in dire need of some fact checkin' :smallwink:

Atavist is a PrC from Races of Eberron, not CPsi. It is also Kalashtar only, and it is a far cry from being a Soulknife/Monk theurge. It only advances your fist and your mind blade - it does not advance other monk stuff, like the armor bonus, speed or flurry. It also only advances your Mind Blade's enhancement bonus - it does not advance anything else, like Psychic Strike or the size of the blade.

It actually hurts the synergy between Monk and Soulknife. It does not make your blade a monk weapon, so no flurry for you. (Shou Disciple can help there.) So you'll have to basically choose if you want to be a monk or a soulknife, even though the class "benefits" both. But why would you want to combine them? They both fill the "I'm dangerous even if you take my sword away" niche.

This isn't to say it's a bad class - the capstone is phenomenal, letting you expend your focus to get a free standard or move action on your turn. This lets you pull off neat tricks - in addition to the standard move + full attack, you can also infinite loop (by expending your focus to get a move action to regain your focus to expend it and get a move action to...) Though I'm not sure why you'd want to do that, perhaps someone else can find a use for it.

It can also turn your fists/mind blade into reach weapons, gain blindsense and a couple of other minor buffs. But it is not the savior of the monk/soulknife you've been looking for by any means.

If you really want a monk/soulknife, that's what Tashalatora + Soulbound Weapon Psywar is for.

arguskos
2010-06-21, 04:24 PM
Argus, I love ya man, but you're in dire need of some fact checkin' :smallwink:
Never knew we were friendly like. Figure you were my mortal foe (like everyone else is). :smallamused:


Atavist is a PrC from Races of Eberron, not CPsi. It is also Kalashtar only, and it is a far cry from being a Soulknife/Monk theurge. It only advances your fist and your mind blade - it does not advance other monk stuff, like the armor bonus, speed or flurry. It also only advances your Mind Blade's enhancement bonus - it does not advance anything else, like Psychic Strike or the size of the blade.
1. Already fixed that before you posted.

2. The race isn't super relevant, since Kalashatar is a fine race.

3. I said "for lack of anything better to say" about the theurge denomination. It is the only method I know of effectively combining Monk/Soulknife, and thus is technically a "theurge" PrC for those classes.


It actually hurts the synergy between Monk and Soulknife. It does not make your blade a monk weapon, so no flurry for you. (Shou Disciple can help there.) So you'll have to basically choose if you want to be a monk or a soulknife, even though the class "benefits" both. But why would you want to combine them? They both fill the "I'm dangerous even if you take my sword away" niche.
Ah, yes, you missed something else I said: Shape Mind Blade. See, once your Mind Blade is an Unarmed Strike, Atavist changes immensely. Instead of being anti-synergistic as you said (which is true), it suddenly is doubling up, which is always a good thing.


This isn't to say it's a bad class - the capstone is phenomenal, letting you expend your focus to get a free standard or move action on your turn. This lets you pull off neat tricks - in addition to the standard move + full attack, you can also infinite loop (by expending your focus to get a move action to regain your focus to expend it and get a move action to...) Though I'm not sure why you'd want to do that, perhaps someone else can find a use for it.
Perhaps there's an effect that happens when you regain focus? :smallconfused: I dunno.


It can also turn your fists/mind blade into reach weapons, gain blindsense and a couple of other minor buffs. But it is not the savior of the monk/soulknife you've been looking for by any means.
Again, Shape Mind Blade. :smalltongue: Suddenly a lot better.


If you really want a monk/soulknife, that's what Tashalatora + Soulbound Weapon Psywar is for.
You'll note I never debated that. I DID say that Atavist makes Monk/Soulknife playable and enjoyable, not that it makes them Tier 2 or even anything super-amazing. Atavist with some clever usage makes a pair of subpar classes fairly enjoyable to play, and that's all I wanted from it. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-06-21, 04:33 PM
Never knew we were friendly like. Figure you were my mortal foe (like everyone else is). :smallamused::smallamused: (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYay)
Perhaps there's an effect that happens when you regain focus? :smallconfused: I dunno.You can provoke infinite number of Attacks of Opportunity. Oh joy!

[Edit]: Quick look around in the tubes tells me Dragon Mag. #341 has a feat called Reshape Mind Blade. That the one you refer to?

arguskos
2010-06-21, 04:41 PM
:smallamused: (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYay)You can provoke infinite number of Attacks of Opportunity. Oh joy!

[Edit]: Quick look around in the tubes tells me Dragon Mag. #341 has a feat called Reshape Mind Blade. That the one you refer to?
Yes, that one. Sorry, I'm AFB at the moment and am going off of memory.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 05:01 PM
:smallamused: (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYay)You can provoke infinite number of Attacks of Opportunity. Oh joy!
That means someone with infinite AoOs could hit you with infinite attacks from a negative energy weapon, and heal you infinitely because of Tomb Tainted Soul?

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 05:07 PM
The spring attack "line of feats" work well. There are two feats that give you extra attacks. I'm away from my books so I can't look them up right now.

The TWF would give you two mindblades and if you have the right feats you could TWF with a bastard sword. Heck you could even charge both of them with Psychic Strike. Yeah, the build is "set up" heavy but it works.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 05:14 PM
The spring attack "line of feats" work well. There are two feats that give you extra attacks. I'm away from my books so I can't look them up right now.

The TWF would give you two mindblades and if you have the right feats you could TWF with a bastard sword. Heck you could even charge both of them with Psychic Strike. Yeah, the build is "set up" heavy but it works.
You have to pay six feats (TWF, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz) to make that work. Except Rapid Blitz needs 18 BAB - a Soulknife can never take it. So you're eating massive penalties and using so many feats so you could have less attacks with less effective weapons - and then end your turn inside the charge range of whatever you hit. This is, by and large, a terrible tactic, by no means worth the cost you've put into it - especially since Spring Attacking (even with the two feats) obviates TWF completely.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 05:14 PM
The spring attack "line of feats" work well. There are two feats that give you extra attacks. I'm away from my books so I can't look them up right now.Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz. You can use five feats to be able to tickle your enemy thrice. Woot!

The TWF would give you two mindblades and if you have the right feats you could TWF with a bastard sword. Heck you could even charge both of them with Psychic Strike. Yeah, the build is "set up" heavy but it works.TWF with no constant source of extra damage is exceedingly poor. Burning two feats for two average damage per hit is a poor trade.

Soulknife can't even shape two bastard swords, but that's a bonus since an actual weapon you buy is better than your mindblade.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 06:40 PM
2. The race isn't super relevant, since Kalashatar is a fine race.

I never said they weren't... but for Soulknife/Monks there are much better choices. The bonus PP aren't used for anything, the mindlink is primarily RP, and the other abilities are situational at best.


3. I said "for lack of anything better to say" about the theurge denomination. It is the only method I know of effectively combining Monk/Soulknife, and thus is technically a "theurge" PrC for those classes.

I did give you another - Shou Disciple, stick it onto a Soulknife and you can
actually out-monk a monk. 16 BAB + Flurry with your MB.


Ah, yes, you missed something else I said: Shape Mind Blade. See, once your Mind Blade is an Unarmed Strike, Atavist changes immensely. Instead of being anti-synergistic as you said (which is true), it suddenly is doubling up, which is always a good thing.
***
Again, Shape Mind Blade. :smalltongue: Suddenly a lot better.

I don't know the exact wording of that feat so I can't comment on it... It seems counterintuitive to allow you to shape your mind blade into an unarmed strike, but I agree it wouldn't break anything with how weak those classes already are. Even so, many DMs dislike Dragon material.


You'll note I never debated that. I DID say that Atavist makes Monk/Soulknife playable and enjoyable, not that it makes them Tier 2 or even anything super-amazing. Atavist with some clever usage makes a pair of subpar classes fairly enjoyable to play, and that's all I wanted from it. :smalltongue:

Tier 2? Not at all. A Psywar, even with Soulbound Weapon, is still only Tier 3. No reshaping reality here. :smallsmile:

And I do like Atavist, a lot. (Kalashtar also benefit nicely from Illumine Soul - it fits their Path of Light fluff like a glove.) I'm still askance about the whole mind-blade-into-boxing-gloves trick but it does seem an interesting way to use the PrC.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 07:03 PM
Flickerdart that’s two different build ideas.

the point of the spring attack build "is" to jump in, do damage, and jump out so that the only MOBs able to hit you are the archers and casters. nothing a ring of evasion wouldn't help with. Dodge and mobility also help in melee.

---
from the SRD;

At 5th level, a soulknife gains the ability to change the form of his mind blade. As a full round action, he can change his mind blade to replicate a long sword (damage 1d8 for a Medium weapon wielded as a one-handed weapon) or a bastard sword (damage 1d10 for a Medium weapon, but he must wield it as a two-handed weapon unless he knows the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat). If a soulknife shapes his mind blade into the form of a bastard sword and wields it two-handed, he adds 1½ times his Strength bonus to his damage rolls, just like when using any other two-handed weapon.

Alternatively, a soulknife can split his mind blade into two identical short swords, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than the soulknife would otherwise create with a single mind blade.

---

ok, so I was wrong about the two mindblade bastard swords but you could TWF with one mindblade bastard Sword and one real one if you wanted. the penalties are only -4/-4 that way or you can TWF with two short sword mind blades and take only a -2/-2 penalty. don't forget that you can charge both short swords with Psychic Strike.

sorry for slipping into MMO speak here, but the soulkinfe is more of an off-tank/off-damage dealer. Again I stand by my point that it's more of a skirmisher class then anything else.

tyckspoon
2010-06-21, 07:08 PM
Flickerdart that’s two different build ideas.

the point of the spring attack build "is" to jump in, do damage, and jump out so that the only MOBs able to hit you are the archers and casters. nothing a ring of evasion wouldn't help with. Dodge and mobility also help in melee.


And the failure of Spring Attack, aside from quite often doing irrelevant damage, is that you have to either *really really fast* in order to Spring in and out to a safe distance or be near-impossible to detect so your opponents don't know where you've decided to Spring away to. You have not achieved 'archers and casters' are the only ones able to hit you if you're still within a standard Move action of the guy you attacked, let alone a Charge.

arguskos
2010-06-21, 07:08 PM
I never said they weren't... but for Soulknife/Monks there are much better choices. The bonus PP aren't used for anything, the mindlink is primarily RP, and the other abilities are situational at best.
You can do something funny with Kalashatar, like taking Hidden Talent (or is it Wild Talent? The one that gives you a power too) and grabbing something amusing like Expansion. :smallbiggrin:


I did give you another - Shou Disciple, stick it onto a Soulknife and you can actually out-monk a monk. 16 BAB + Flurry with your MB.
Didn't see that. Wouldn't keep up with the Buddha Palm for damage though.


I don't know the exact wording of that feat so I can't comment on it... It seems counterintuitive to allow you to shape your mind blade into an unarmed strike, but I agree it wouldn't break anything with how weak those classes already are. Even so, many DMs dislike Dragon material.
Unarmed Strikes are weapons. Reshape lets you pick a weapon, and turn your mind blade into that weapon. The fluff is fine (you manifest psychic power around your fists, making your hits vastly more dangerous). It IS Dragon Material, but I'm not exactly asking for something good here, just something fun. It's like how folk bring up Serenity or Kung-fu Genius pretty frequently. They're not AMAZING, just fun.


Tier 2? Not at all. A Psywar, even with Soulbound Weapon, is still only Tier 3. No reshaping reality here. :smallsmile:
Couldn't recall exactly. Seriously, AFB makes me stupid.


And I do like Atavist, a lot. (Kalashtar also benefit nicely from Illumine Soul - it fits their Path of Light fluff like a glove.) I'm still askance about the whole mind-blade-into-boxing-gloves trick but it does seem an interesting way to use the PrC.
I feel the Buddha Palm build is really one of the most effective ways to make a Monk/Soulknife viable. And, it happens to be HILARIOUSLY good times, so I call that a win.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 07:10 PM
By the way, I found the answer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070604a) to the OP's question, though probably not the one he wanted to hear.

One Psychic Strike hit per Bladewind :smallfrown:

Greenish
2010-06-21, 07:12 PM
Flickerdart that’s two different build ideas.And neither is what one would call "good". In both cases, your damage is negligible and you aren't contributing to the combat in any other way. Well, you might eat a few hits until enemies noticed you aren't an actual threat.

[Edit]:
By the way, I found the answer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070604a) to the OP's question, though probably not the one he wanted to hear.

One Psychic Strike hit per Bladewind :smallfrown:Do we get a Will save to disbelief sage?

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 07:16 PM
Flickerdart that’s two different build ideas.

the point of the spring attack build "is" to jump in, do damage, and jump out so that the only MOBs able to hit you are the archers and casters. nothing a ring of evasion wouldn't help with. Dodge and mobility also help in melee.
Ok, so only 5 feats. You still suck - low damage, and remaining within retaliation range. Dodge and Mobility "help" the same way your Soulknife helps the party - insignificantly.



ok, so I was wrong about the two mindblade bastard swords but you could TWF with one mindblade bastard Sword and one real one if you wanted. the penalties are only -4/-4 that way or you can TWF with two short sword mind blades and take only a -2/-2 penalty. don't forget that you can charge both short swords with Psychic Strike.
Yeah, except you can only attack with both as a full attack, which you don't get because you spent at least one move action on charging your swords. Soulknives are inherently awful at TWF because they are inherently awful at full attacks.

PId6
2010-06-21, 07:20 PM
[Edit]:Do we get a Will save to disbelief sage?
Only if you interact with him. Further, because he has the Chains of Disbelief ACF, if you try to convince others to disbelieve him on an internet forum, they do not gain the standard +4 bonus to their Will save to disbelieve.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 07:37 PM
@tyckspoon

that’s why I took a lvl in Barbarian in order to get fast movement. fast movement + speed of thought = +20 to your movement speed and rage doesn't hurt.

@Greenish
yeah, 5d8 + 1d6/1d10+ weapon enhancements + STR anytime you feel like it is negligible damage and that’s just one mindblade.

@Flickerdart
only until 5th lvl when it becomes a free action until then use your move action to charge and then your attack action to fire your crossbow. big whoop

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 07:42 PM
@Flickerdart
only until 5th lvl when it becomes a free action until then use your move action to charge and then your attack action to fire your crossbow. big whoop

Actually, the free action at 5th-level is to create your mind blade. It never stops being a move action to charge it with PS.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 07:42 PM
@Flickerdart
only until 5th lvl when it becomes a free action until then use your move action to charge and then your attack action to fire your crossbow. big whoop
Uhm...I was talking about Psychic Strike, your source of bonus damage. Drawing your weapons is never an issue.

Additionally, I'm not sure you understand how a charge works, because what you said makes no sense. On a charge, a creature moved up to twice its speed and then makes a melee attack (or, if it has Pounce, many melee attacks). Since Spring Attack only lets you move your speed, you're well within reach of a charge from what you just attacked.

tyckspoon
2010-06-21, 07:46 PM
@tyckspoon

that’s why I took a lvl in Barbarian in order to get fast movement. fast movement + speed of thought = +20 to your movement speed and rage doesn't hurt.

@Greenish
yeah, 5d8 + 1d6/1d10+ weapon enhancements + STR anytime you feel like it is negligible damage and that’s just one mindblade.

@Flickerdart
only until 5th lvl when it becomes a free action until then use your move action to charge and then your attack action to fire your crossbow. big whoop

In order: 50 foot move speed will not reliably get you 35+feet away from your target, which is what you need for him to not simply move+attack you; 5d8 + whatever *is* negligible at level 19-20 when you actually can Psychic Strike for that much (it'd be good if you could do it on a Full Attack, but you can't!), and Psychic Strike never has its action type reduced by the Soulknife class. You can shape one as a free action, once/round, but that's an entirely unrelated act to charging a Psychic Strike.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 07:47 PM
@Greenish
yeah, 5d8 + 1d6/1d10+ weapon enhancements + STR anytime you feel like it is negligible damage and that’s just one mindblade.Once per turn, taking both your standard actions and your move action (to recharge your mindblade).

So, at level 19 with 30 strength (woot!) 47 points of damage per round, plus whatever you get from the +4's worth of enhancements on your mindblade.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 07:54 PM
@Optimystik
your right and I'm wrong. misread the SRD.

@Flickerdart

I mean charge your mindblade with Psychic Strike as your move action.

combat would look something like this. your fighter takes on the MOB on the front lines. the soulknife hides behind the fighter and uses his move action to charge his mindblade with Psychic Strike and uses his attack action to fire his crossbow. next round the fighter keeps attacking the MOB while the soulknife jumps in, does the damage, and jumps behind the fighter again.

rinse and repeat.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 07:56 PM
combat would look something like this. your fighter takes on the MOB on the front lines. the soulknife hides behind the fighter and uses his move action to charge his mindblade with Psychic Strike and uses his attack action to fire his crossbow. next round the fighter keeps attacking the MOB while the soulknife jumps in, does the damage, and jumps behind the fighter again.Heh, 23 damage per round.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 07:57 PM
So you're only contributing every second turn, making your pathetic damage double pathetic? What good is that, when the average combat lasts 3 rounds?

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 07:59 PM
@Optimystik
your right and I'm wrong. misread the SRD.

@Flickerdart

I mean charge your mindblade with Psychic Strike as your move action.

combat would look something like this. your fighter takes on the MOB on the front lines. the soulknife hides behind the fighter and uses his move action to charge his mindblade with Psychic Strike and uses his attack action to fire his crossbow. next round the fighter keeps attacking the MOB while the soulknife jumps in, does the damage, and jumps behind the fighter again.

rinse and repeat.

You are losing every other move action with the PS recharge during the "repeat" phase and plinking away with your crossbow. Not to mention, you are either dropping and picking up said crossbow between springs, or sheating and drawing it to free your hands for your mind blade(s).

Both routes eat actions, protracting the problem further.

Soulknife isn't bad because it can't deal damage - it's bad because it forces you to choose between damage and mobility. And if you choose damage over mobility, you stand a good chance of getting flattened due to your poor fort save (very bad on the frontlines), and lack of armor/shield proficiencies. Not to mention that you still can't full attack and PS even if you stand still.

It's a skirmisher class... that doesn't have the tools to skirmish properly.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 08:07 PM
@Greenish
did you fail math?

with a STR of 18 that a max of 50 damage plus weapon enhancement first hit and 1d6+STR+weapon enhancement. and Psychic Strike stays into effect until you hit not just until you use your first attack.

a fighter of the same level and STR using a flaming shorts word would be doing 64 points of damage with his 4 attacks.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 08:09 PM
1) Aspiring to equal fighter is not a very good bar for classes to be aiming for.

2) Asking other posters if they "failed math" is not a good way to avoid moderation.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 08:15 PM
@Greenish
sorry for the failling math comment.

@Optimystik
if your using a skirmisher class on the front lines I can't help but think your doing something wrong.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 08:17 PM
@Greenish
did you fail math?

with a STR of 18 that a max of 50 damage plus weapon enhancement first hit and 1d6+STR+weapon enhancement. and Psychic Strike stays into effect until you hit not just until you use your first attack.

a fighter of the same level and STR using a flaming shorts word would be doing 64 points of damage with his 4 attacks.
A Fighter of the same level will have more BAB, more damage (due to using that BAB on PA, and having a better, two-handed sword), more attacks (since he doesn't need to waste his move action), more HP and more feats. And Fighters are pretty bad. Your Soulknife is immeasurably worse. Even a Giamonk can beat it.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 08:18 PM
with a STR of 18 that a max of 50 damage plus weapon enhancement first hit and 1d6+STR+weapon enhancement. and Psychic Strike stays into effect until you hit not just until you use your first attack.I calculated the average, not the maximum. 5d8 is on average 22.5 damage. Bastard Sword is an average of 5.5 damage. Then you get +4 from the enhancement bonus + special abilities. (This is at level 19, when you first get your 5d8 Psychic Strike. Obviously your awesome capstone will increase your damage by 1.)

a fighter of the same level and STR using a flaming shorts word would be doing 64 points of damage with his 4 attacks.Flaming short sword? What have you been smoking? :smallconfused:

No, the fighter is using a keen collision falchion and Power Attack.

Power Attacking for 5 (so his BAB is on your sad level), his average damage (with pathetic 26 strength) will be 27 per hit or 108 for a full attack. (This is before weapon enhancements, note.)


And that's a very poorly made fighter.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 08:19 PM
@Optimystik
if your using a skirmisher class on the front lines I can't help but think your doing something wrong.

I am doing something wrong, that's the point.

But you yourself saw what happened when you tried to turn your Soulknife into a harrier. Either the damage is pathetic, or you try and bring Psychic Strike into it and cripple your mobility - a lose/lose situation.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 08:21 PM
Just using a fighter with the same weapon and STR as the soulknife and yes I added the four attacks the fighter would have.

@Optimystik
Ok, I admit you have a valid point and your also fun to debate with.

tyckspoon
2010-06-21, 08:27 PM
Just using a fighter with the same weapon and STR as the soulknife and yes I added the four attacks the fighter would have.

@Optimystik
Ok, I admit you have a valid point and your also fun to debate with.

So if you're using your entire round to attack an opponent, you can be slightly worse than a very lame fighter doing the same thing. This is not a convincing argument for an effective way to play a Soulknife.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 08:29 PM
just using a fighter with the same weapon and STR as the soulknife and yes I added the four attacks the fighter would have.
Ok, look, let's use some hard math. Assume that both participants have 35STR (18+2 racial+4 levels+6 item+5 inherent).

The Soulknife using the short sword deals 1d6 (base) +5 (enhancement) +12 (STR) + 5d8 (psychic strike). That is an average of 3.5+5+12+22.5=43 damage. We will not consider the potential special abilities because the Fighter can replicate the Soulknife's choices - or do better, because Soulknife choices are terrible.

The Fighter using a Greatsword deals 2d6 (base) +5 (enhancement) + 16 (STR, two-handed) + 10 (two-handed Power Attack for 5, to lower it to your BAB). This is an average of 7+5+16+10=38 damage, only 5 less than yours. The Fighter also has one more point of special ability to put on his weapon.
And then the Fighter has 3 more attacks.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 08:35 PM
Meet Knork:Knork, the prettiest orc barbarian.

Knork is level 10 and using 32 pointbuy got following attributes (racial modifiers included): STR: 18 DEX: 8 CON: 16 INT: 6 WIS: 6 CHA: 16. He has put both of his levelling stat bonuses to strength, bringing it up to 20.

Knork wanted to become a bard, but due to pressure of the orc society he never made it. Poor Knork.

Knork is a simply guy: he likes to drink, flirt, push weaker beings around and most of all smash stuff into pieces. For these ends, his feats are as follow:
1: Power Attack. Knork likes to smash.
3: Imp. Bull Rush. Knork likes to push people around (and laugh).
6: Shock Trooper. Knork likes smashing very much.
9: Leap Attack. Very, very much.

Knork uses his grandfather's Masterwork Greatsword, which he brags about, and his grandmother's loincloth, which he doesn't brag about.

Now, Knork likes smashing so much that when he rages, he gets to smash more often. He has understood that to smash, you have to catch up with the smashee.

Attack sequence with Whirling Frenzy (with MW greatsword): +19/+19/+14
Damage per hit: 2d6 (sword) + 10 (+7 Str x 1.5) + 60 (PA for 10, x2 for two-handing the sword, x3 from Leap Attack)

Average damage per round: 231.


Knork isn't a very optimized character.[Edit]:
@Flickerdart
you invalidate the fighter damage vs. soulknife damage by giving the fighter a great sword.

if your going to compare the two classes, you have to give them the same weapon and stats. only then can you see how they stack up side by side.So only way to compare a wizard and a soulknife is to have both attack an opponent with a short sword? No, you're being silly. There's no reason for a fighter to use a short sword.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 08:36 PM
@Flickerdart
you invalidate the fighter damage vs. soulknife damage by giving the fighter a great sword and adding feats that the soulknife doesn't have. that and I’m only using the soulkinfe class abilities.

if your going to compare the two classes, you have to give them the same weapon, stats, and feats. only then can you see how they stack up side by side in a fair fight

Zaq
2010-06-21, 08:40 PM
@Flickerdart
you invalidate the fighter damage vs. soulknife damage by giving the fighter a great sword.

if your going to compare the two classes, you have to give them the same weapon and stats. only then can you see how they stack up side by side.

Why? In what world does that make sense? The point is that the Fighter, unlike the Soulknife, isn't locked into using a specific (and not very good) weapon. That's the point. Why should the fighter be forced to use the same crappy weapon as the Soulknife?

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 08:43 PM
@Flickerdart
you invalidate the fighter damage vs. soulknife damage by giving the fighter a great sword and adding feats that the soulknife doesn't have. that and I’m only using the soulkinfe class abilities.

if your going to compare the two classes, you have to give them the same weapon, stats, and same feats. only then can you see how they stack up side by side.
Um, what. No. Your Soulknife is using Psychic Strike - a Soulknife class feature. My Fighter is using his Martial Weapon Proficiency - a Fighter class feature. To deny the Fighter his class features is foolish.

However, I will humour you. With a Short Sword (-3.5 average damage) the Fighter take Weapon Focus (Short Sword) to attack, and hence PA, at +1 (+2 average damage) and Weapon Specialization (Short Sword) for +2 to damage. He now has +0.5 to damage over what I had before. And these are by no means optimal feats. Greater Weapon Focus adds +2 more damage from PA, Greater Weapon Spec adds +2 more damage. Now the Fighter is only 0.5 damage behind, and makes 4x as many attacks. And still has most of his feats left.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 08:46 PM
Its called a fair comparison. So how would a rogue work out?

PId6
2010-06-21, 08:48 PM
Its called a fair comparison. So how would a rogue work out?
The rogue gets more damage from Sneak Attack than the soulknife from Psychic Strike, and gets it on every attack. Not even a close comparison.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 08:49 PM
Its called a fair comparison. So how would a rogue work out?
Assuming his SA goes off? Short Sword 1d6 (3.5), SA 10d6 (35), Craven +20. +12 from STR, because you insist on this inanity. +5 from the enhancement bonus. Total, 75.5 on a single attack, and he's got 4 more (he's TWFing, as Rogues are wont to do, with Improved and Greater TWF as well).

Teron
2010-06-21, 08:49 PM
Its called a fair comparison.
No, it isn't. You're using the soulknife's class features while ignoring the fighter's.

sofawall
2010-06-21, 08:50 PM
Its called a fair comparison. So how would a rogue work out?

So soulknife is better than a wizard, because spells are something a soulknife doesn't have access to?

That is the whole point! The soulknife does not have access to better options. That makes it weaker!

Greenish
2010-06-21, 08:50 PM
However, I will humour you. With a Short Sword (-3.5 average damage) the Fighter take Weapon Focus (Short Sword) to attack, and hence PA, at +1 (+2 average damage)Light weapon, no PA.
Its called a fair comparison. So how would a rogue work out?1d6 + 1xStr + 10d6 SA + 20 Craven. Three hits. 58.5 average damage per hit, three hits for a total of 175.5.

[Edit]: The rogue above has a single non-magical short sword and 10 strength. He only deals five times more damage per round than your soulknife.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 08:50 PM
No, it isn't. You're using the soulknife's class features while ignoring the fighter's.
He's still only doing 1/4 of the damage, even with that retarded condition.


Light weapon, no PA.1d6 + 1xStr + 10d6 SA + 20 Craven.
Pretty sure there's some way to either PA with a light weapon or make a weapon considered a category higher (some kind of material, perhaps). Assuming without that, however:
1d6+18+5+4(weapon specs)+2 (weapon mastery)=32.5 average damage. Using the extra +1 special ability on, say, Flaming, that's another 3.5, so 36. I could scrounge up more feats that increase damage but it's already doing so much more than you that there's hardly a point, and these are horribly sub-optimal feats.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 08:58 PM
Pretty sure there's some way to either PA with a light weaponUnarmed Strike and natural attacks count as light and can be used with PA. Not sure about any other ways.
or make a weapon considered a category higher (some kind of material, perhaps).Heavy property, I think. Requires EWP.
Assuming without that, however:
1d6+18+5+4(weapon specs)+2 (weapon mastery)=32.5 average damage. Using the extra +1 special ability on, say, Flaming, that's another 3.5, so 36. I could scrounge up more feats that increase damage but it's already doing so much more than you that there's hardly a point.Hey, I'm not a soulknife. :smallwink:

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 09:00 PM
No, it isn't. You're using the soulknife's class features while ignoring the fighter's.

a fighters class feature is feats. using the same feats given to a soulknife with the same weapon is a fair comparison.

and Optimystik already sold me on the issue, yet I still like my setup for the soulblade.

by the way what's craven?

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 09:02 PM
No, it isn't. You're using the soulknife's class features while ignoring the fighter's.

a fighters class feature is feats. using the same feats given to a soulknife with the same weapon is a fair comparison.

and Optimystik already sold me on the issue, yet I still like my setup for the soulblade.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm


Class Features

All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Zaq
2010-06-21, 09:03 PM
No, it isn't. You're using the soulknife's class features while ignoring the fighter's.

a fighters class feature is feats. using the same feats given to a soulknife with the same weapon is a fair comparison.

and Optimystik already sold me on the issue, yet I still like my setup for the soulblade.

Really? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm)


Class Features

All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats

At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Bold added for emphasis.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 09:03 PM
a fighters class feature is feats. using the same feats given to a soulknife with the same weapon is a fair comparison.A fighter's class features also include martial weapon proficiency (and not being tied to a certain weapon).

Seriously, your "comparison" method is flat-out stupid.

[Edit]: Aww shucks, the swordsages are on the move.

Teron
2010-06-21, 09:10 PM
a fighters class feature is feats. using the same feats given to a soulknife with the same weapon is a fair comparison.
The fighter's relevant class features are: more feats than the soulknife, not being restricted to terrible weapons, and better BAB. You're ignoring all of those.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 09:12 PM
The fighter's relevant class features are: more feats than the soulknife, not being restricted to terrible weapons, and better BAB. You're ignoring all of those.
Not to mention better HP (so he doesn't need as much CON and can have more STR as a result).

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 09:13 PM
"and using the same weapon" I do believe that was part of the comparison I put forth.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 09:15 PM
"and using the same weapon" I do believe that was part of the comparison I put forth.Yes, and that's a stupid method. It doesn't tell you anything relevant.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 09:17 PM
Yes, and that's a stupid method. It doesn't tell you anything relevant.
It tells you that under arbitrary conditions that favour the Soulknife, it still blows monkey chunks.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 09:20 PM
I give up. we're just going around and around in a circle at this point.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 09:26 PM
I give up. we're just going around and around in a circle at this point.Gee, I wonder why. :smallamused:

sofawall
2010-06-21, 09:38 PM
It tells you that under arbitrary conditions that favour the Soulknife, it still blows monkey chunks.

I agree with the above. Even with a fighter using a weapon that he really has no business using, even with a fighter not using his bonus feats, and the soulknife using all the available resources, the fighter still does very close to as much damage per attack, and gets many more attacks.

So in a situation where you deny everything about a fighter except his BAB, and where the soulknife has everything going for him, you still do much, much worse.

And this is doing worse than a fighter. Heck, you'd probably do worse than a monk, and the monk is the 3.5 poster child for weak beatstick.

Mongoose87
2010-06-21, 09:41 PM
I agree with the above. Even with a fighter using a weapon that he really has no business using, even with a fighter not using his bonus feats, and the soulknife using all the available resources, the fighter still does very close to as much damage per attack, and gets many more attacks.

So in a situation where you deny everything about a fighter except his BAB, and where the soulknife has everything going for him, you still do much, much worse.

And this is doing worse than a fighter. Heck, you'd probably do worse than a monk, and the monk is the 3.5 poster child for weak beatstick.

I hope you didn't just take this thread on a sharp turn towards Monksville.

sofawall
2010-06-21, 09:43 PM
I hope you didn't just take this thread on a sharp turn towards Monksville.

Shall we start arguing about UMD now, or later?

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 09:44 PM
Sure, let's do Monk.

Assuming the same STR again (35, so a +12 bonus) a Monk's attack routine looks like this:
4d8 (base damage with Improved Natural Attack or similar, average 18) +5 (Amulet of Natural Attacks) +12 (STR) = 35 average damage per attack. And he gets five thanks to Flurry of Blows.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 09:47 PM
Monk probably does worse than soul knife when forced to attack with a short sword, unless you take a style to make it into a monk weapon.

If the monk is allowed to use Unarmed Strike, there's no competition, the monk does almost double the soulknife's damage.

[Edit]: A damn swordsage posted before me, and used feats and magic items!

PId6
2010-06-21, 09:48 PM
If the monk is allowed to use Unarmed Strike, there's no competition, the monk does almost double the soulknife's damage.
But how's that fair? You have to use the same weapon for both of them!

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 09:50 PM
But how's that fair? You have to use the same weapon for both of them!
Ok, so the Soulknife has to attack with his fists, then (as we are evidently using the worse of the two styles when comparing).

PId6
2010-06-21, 09:56 PM
Ok, so the Soulknife has to attack with his fists, then (as we are evidently using the worse of the two styles when comparing).
Okay, now it's fair. SOULFIST POWAR!!!

Greenish
2010-06-21, 09:59 PM
But how's that fair? You have to use the same weapon for both of them!Hmm, picking a style that has short sword as a speshul monk weapon (I seem to recall that a dragon mag or something had those) and using +5 short sword, 18 strength (this is important, same strength!) monk can average of 62.5 damage in a round.

Now, amusingly, a soulknife (18 strength, short sword!) does an average of 31 damage per round. 3.5 (sword) + 4 (str) + 5 (enhancement on the blade) + 22.5 (5d8 Psychic Strike).

A monk not flurrying with his +5 short sword and with 18 strength does an average of 37 damage per round! (3.5 + 4 + 5)x3.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the rock bottom.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 10:00 PM
Okay, now it's fair. SOULFIST POWAR!!!
1d3+12 (average 14) subdual damage. But guess what?

The Soulknife can now full attack! He deals an average of 42 damage when he does so! Only one point short of your build, DragonsAion. That's right - your idea is so bad that a character with no weapons at all can deal nearly as much damage. An NPC class (expert) deals that much damage. A Warrior (another NPC class) deals more damage than your build using no weapons, feats or class features at all.

Hague
2010-06-22, 02:17 AM
Ugh, okay, here's one for ya: Psychic Warrior 4 / Soulknife 13 / Illumine Soul 3

Using liberal points from Mind's Eye pt. 1:

Wild Talent is upgraded to Hidden talent, granting me a bonus power. I choose Force Screen for a Shield bonus. Now using Dragon #341's advice (with DM approval of course) I remove the Greater Weapon Focus (Mind blade) feat and add Reshape Mind Blade (Spiked Chain)

When I get my psychic warrior levels, I pick up 2 Psionic Feats, and 5 powers: Specifically: Skate, Chameleon, Expansion, and Psionic Lion's Charge (suboptimal, I know, since I could dip Barbarian...) For the two bonus feats from psychic warrior I pick up first Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) and later Practiced Mind Blade (I would've dipped into Pyrokineticist, but evidently you don't actually get proficiency with whips even though it's first class feature is a whip...)

If I pick Human, I take Combat Expertise and then Improved Trip. Later I take Mind Cleave. I can improve to Spring Attack if necessary. However, I think it would be prudent to add a DR defeating element to the blade such as Adamantine Mind Blade or Aligned Mind Blade or perhaps Improved Combat Expertise to increase defense. The obvious choice is probably Combat Reflexes, however. Later I pick up Strategic Reassignment and Tactical Reassignment to allow me greater versatility with my weapon assignments.

Now, when I use Bladewind, I can perform a trip against all enemies I threaten (since Bladewind enables 1 melee attack against each opponent within reach, and a trip is a melee attack) however, I don't get iterative strikes as Bladewind doesn't allow them. Now, when each one of those enemies gets up, I can hit them and apply Psychic Strike damage. I pick and choose wounded foes. When one goes down, Mind Cleave recharges my Psychic Strike, if another enemy provokes, I hit again and apply another set of Psychic Strike damage. I can alternate between types of Knife to the Soul Damage to down low mental stat enemies. My specialty is Wisdom damage, as the Mindcrusher enhancement makes it so I deal 1d2 wisdom damage if an opponent doesn't have any psionic points left. I might pick up the Collision enhancement as well, in order to add +5 damage to each one of my attacks.

By level 20, I have great battlefield control against enemies that can be affected by mind-affecting attacks and a definitely great power against undead enemies. I can charge my psychic strike, gain psionic focus, manifest expansion or skate, readying a standard action to trip a foe. My weapon is a Collision Mindcrusher Undead Bane Mind Chain +5, that deals If that foe falls, my iterative strike deals psychic strike damage, dealing 2d4 (or 2d6 if Large)+10+4d8. 16-50 damage and 6-12 PP damage or 5-6 wisdom damage or 4 int damage and 1d2 wisdom damage and so on. If the enemy "falls" (I'm gonna say, if they are disabled or killed, including comatose from attribute damage) my Psychic Strike is restored, allowing me to deal psychic strike damage on my next attack. If I get surrounded, I can use Bladewind to trip all the enemies around me or simply attack them. If my first attack kills or incapacitates an enemy, my next attack gets psychic strike damage, then the next and so on. On undead enemies, I deal an additional +2 damage and 2d6 points of damage. If I pick up weapon finesse, I can forego improving strength and concentrate on dexterity, replacing Expansion with Compression. If I substitute Hustle for Psionic Lion's Charge, and use the extra move action to charge my psychic strike or get away after using a full-round action to Bladewind Trip or Bladewind Disarm all nearby enemies.

My psychic strike should discharge upon a successful trip attack regardless, since succeeding at a trip attack counts as a hit. With Skate and Speed of Thought, my move speed is 55. (30 base + 15(enhancement <skate>) + 10 (insight <Speed of thought>)