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the humanity
2010-06-19, 11:40 PM
my DM made a sweeping statement about if you want the most powerful stuff, you should always use core. I don't disagree (it does give you the druid, time stop, gate, the wizard, power attack, and other build staples) but I think that his following statement, that outside of core the base classes are weak, the spells are near useless, but some of the feats and prestige classes are nice, is incorrect. to see (for myself) what makes one of us right, I'm gonna ask what the 10 most powerful things are in DnD?

by things- any feat, race, spell, class, or prestige class, in their own right. not compared to each other (swashbuckler would always be better than weapon finesse, its weapon finesse and more) but in comparison to other things of its kind. a build (pun pun, sorcadin, bardzilla, ect) is not really what I want.

I think (in no order)
shadowcraft mage
wizard
shivering touch
druid
time stop
dragonwrought (due to the following shenanigans)dervish beholder mage
dervish incantatrix
planar shephard
mind blank gate
sleep shapechange

edited. these are my own, make your own lists, I might make a big vote based list if I have time looking at everyone elses.
what do you think?

Eurus
2010-06-19, 11:41 PM
Shapechange should definitely be in there. I'd say it's superior even to Time Stop.

Havvy
2010-06-19, 11:42 PM
Ray of Stupidity can take out any creature with low intelligence, and there are a fair number of creatures with low intelligence.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-19, 11:45 PM
Gate is probably the most easily abused spell in the game, and it's core. A better argument isn't to show all the broken things in non-core, but all the wonderful, decently-powered things in non-core, like Dragonfire Adepts.

But if you're just looking for broken non core things, Programmed Amnesia/Mindrape/whatever the BoED one is.

tyckspoon
2010-06-19, 11:46 PM
Incantatrix, for prestige class. Archivist, for base class. Superior Invisibility (you can be detected by.. touchsight, mindsight, lifesense, and True Seeing, basically. You are specifically exempt from detection by See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, and Dust of Disappearance, and by extension any items based on those spells,) Maw of Chaos, Ironguard, and Avasculate are fun Spell Compendium additions.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-19, 11:49 PM
Ray of Stupidity can take out any creature with low intelligence, and there are a fair number of creatures with low intelligence.

Split-Ray Twinned Empowered Ray of Stupidity. (4d6+4 per 2 levels)*1.5 INT damage.

Alternatively: Ocular Twinned Empowered Ray of Stupidity gives you the same effect for twice the spell slots.

EDIT: Oops. Forgot Ray of Stupidity is actually a d6 of INT damage.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-19, 11:53 PM
Split-Ray Twinned Empowered Ray of Stupidity. (4d4+4 per 2 levels)*1.5 INT damage.

Alternatively: Ocular Twinned Empowered Ray of Stupidity gives you the same effect for twice the spell slots.You could also add Split Ray to the Ocular one for more 2x shenanigans. Beware Ray Deflection.

the humanity
2010-06-19, 11:54 PM
I just mean most powerful.

shivering touch rendering most dragons useless at what? 5th level? powerful. is one dragon paralyzed broken? probably not. he usually he has friends. the adventure is not over. vorpal is able to do the same thing (not as well though)

I originally put in dervish because it makes one of the worst ever classes in the game (scout) suddenly pretty useful, but incantatrix does more for the wizard than dervish does for scout.

AslanCross
2010-06-20, 12:14 AM
Artificer. Spells like Streamers. Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Uberchargers using Shock Trooper. Ruby Knight Vindicator and White Raven Tactics.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-20, 12:21 AM
You could also add Split Ray to the Ocular one for more 2x shenanigans. Beware Ray Deflection.

Of course, but that'd be trying. :smalltongue:

Ashram
2010-06-20, 12:22 AM
Spell Compendium's Combust. 10d8 for a 2nd level spell (At 10th level, of course.)

Curmudgeon
2010-06-20, 12:33 AM
Spell Compendium's Combust. 10d8 for a 2nd level spell (At 10th level, of course.)
Not so much, really. It's a touch attack, so you've got to get next to them. And if they (and their attended objects) weigh 251+ lbs. (at 10th level), nothing happens.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-20, 12:43 AM
*looks at list*

*doesn't see Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant*

Those two could certainly use some mention. They are not classes, they are pure evil given paper form.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-06-20, 01:29 AM
*doesn't see Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant*bah. Try tainted sorcerer or Planar shepard if you want to have things worth the list. Even by conservative interpretations, they are nuts.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-20, 01:45 AM
1. Spell-Casting when used intelligently
2. (Su) or (Sp) monster effects that duplicate casting
3. doubly so if it duplicates stuff with an xp component (looking at you Genies/Titans/Solars...)
4. Synergistic building, power attack is not broken, neither is Orb of Fire, both can become so with a little effort
5. Metamagic reducers, kiss goodbye to limitations
6. Timebending effects, initiative/turn order/action economy abuse results in a broken game
7. Calling effects, they use some combination of the above to ludicrous extent with little time or thought, in fact most of them seem to have been written with that in MIND for cryin out loud.
8. Polymorph and it's line, I know casting's up there but this one deserves special mention.

Deca
2010-06-20, 02:38 AM
Pun-Pun is non-core. That is all anyone should need.

JeminiZero
2010-06-20, 03:16 AM
bah. Try tainted sorcerer or Planar shepard if you want to have things worth the list. Even by conservative interpretations, they are nuts.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dweomerkeeper yet.

Epic Magic is of course also entirely broken if used correctly.

sofawall
2010-06-20, 03:18 AM
Spell Compendium's Combust. 10d8 for a 2nd level spell (At 10th level, of course.)

I'll bet that isn't even top 100. Pretty key to Combust is the need to be close to an enemy. This is something a good wizard avoids, if possible.

Also, I don't care what optimization level you are running at, Beholder Mage is still really powerful. Tainted Scholar? Cool. Planar Shepherd? Awesome. I'd put Beholder Mage as at least as powerful as Planar Shepherd, and possibly better than Tainted Scholar (but really, it comes down to initiative, for those two especially).

Illithid Savant is good, but only as good as your DM allows. You basically need to Gate in things you want to eat.

Set
2010-06-20, 03:52 AM
Anything that allows a PC to have access to 'monster powers' like the ability to gate up an Efreeti and demand wishes, or Command a Shadow and have it create a thousand spawn that you control by proxy, or turn into a Shambling Mound and Call Lightning yourself up to 100+ Con, or become a Barghest and use Feed to gain +X HD, Str, Con, NA, Sarrukh nonsense, 'age like a dragon and gain Epic feats,' etc.

That's pretty much why Gate, Planar Shepherd, Shapechange, etc. find their way onto this list, because monsters have ridiculous infinite loop powers that nobody would dream of giving to a PC.

Heliomance
2010-06-20, 03:53 AM
Dweomerkeeper (Wish as a (Su)? Yes please)
The Celerity chain from the PHBII.

Runestar
2010-06-20, 04:25 AM
Gate is just broken, no 2 ways around it. Why bother spending 5000xp on wish when you can just spend 1000xp to bring in a solar to cast it for you? Oh yeah, and draconomicon has pyroclastic dragons, basically great wyrm red dragons without spellcasting and the extraplanar subtype. Its almost as thought the designers thought "You know, I don't think there are nearly enough broken monsters to gate in..." :smallfurious:

I would say polymorph, PAO as well. While weaker than shapechange, you can cast them on other players. A raging barb transformed into a treant is a very scary thing. You know you are doing something right when you break the game, and the other players spring to your defense when the DM protests because they are having so much fun as well! :smallamused:

However, when we talk about power, what exactly are we referring to? For example, dragonwrought is perfectly balanced on its own benefits, its only when you start combining stuff like loredrake, playing venerable kobolds and arguing that you be allowed to take epic feats at 1st lv that issues start to crop up.

Thespianus
2010-06-20, 04:33 AM
Not so much, really. It's a touch attack, so you've got to get next to them. And if they (and their attended objects) weigh 251+ lbs. (at 10th level), nothing happens.

That is an evil interpretation of the "or" in the Target description. :smallwink:

I suspect the weight limit was intended as a limit to the weight of the object that could be set ablaze with the spell. I can see how "No, you can't set the entire castle / world on fire with a 2nd level spell" would cause them to put that line in. However, I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

But, yes, your interpretation is RAW. WOTC should use parenthesis more often in their texts. :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2010-06-20, 05:06 AM
I suspect the weight limit was intended as a limit to the weight of the object that could be set ablaze with the spell. I can see how "No, you can't set the entire castle / world on fire with a 2nd level spell" would cause them to put that line in. However, I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.
I don't see it as "too fat" but rather that a set amount of fire is going to be spread too thin over a large creature to actually burn it. 30 seconds in the microwave is enough to heat up a slice of cold pizza. Put a whole chicken in for the same time and you're not going to notice any significant change in temperature.

Telonius
2010-06-20, 06:04 AM
Most powerful things in D&D
1. The DM
2. Pun-Pun (and other world-breaking theoretical optimization builds)*
3. Wizard
4. Natural Spell
5. Divine Metamagic
6. Polymorph
7. Gate and related items (candle of invocation etc)
8. Archivist*
9. Artificer*
10. Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans*

* = non-core.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-20, 06:15 AM
no Cleric as a class?

Thespianus
2010-06-20, 06:44 AM
I don't see it as "too fat" but rather that a set amount of fire is going to be spread too thin over a large creature to actually burn it.
Isn't that what we have hit points for? A larger creature usually have a lot of hitpoints, so he will survive the blast, while a smaller creature (with less HP) might die.


30 seconds in the microwave is enough to heat up a slice of cold pizza. Put a whole chicken in for the same time and you're not going to notice any significant change in temperature.

Put the chicken in the microwave for 10 x 30 seconds, and it will get warm.

The 251lbs monster won't even notice the heat from an infinite amount of Combust spells, at least not until he needs to pee, and loses a pound of weight that way. ;)

Anyway, there's no real need to argue this. Your reading of RAW has merits, I just think that the intention of the writers differ from that reading, and I leave it in the hands of every DM to rule it their way.

Alleran
2010-06-20, 07:57 AM
The Black Elfstone (artifact; Dragon #286) is fairly dangerous to ever give to power-minded PCs.

Bayar
2010-06-20, 08:13 AM
Aww, no Cancer Mage ? Infinite STR with no drawbacks from disease ?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-20, 09:29 AM
Based on actual play experience, I would not put the Artificer on such a list. Their power is largely theoretical. In the vast majority of games, they rarely have the time or money to become the monstrously powerful characters they potentially could be.

I would agree that the Beholder Mage is a contender, and most definitely non-core. Spontaneous casting from a potentially unlimited list, in 10 levels, with each spell level cast as a free action. I've never had the guts to even attempt to sick one on actual players before.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-20, 11:28 AM
It's not quite up in the Top 10 with things like planar binding, gate, beholder mage, and undead tainted scholars flying around (literally, in the case of the beholder mage), but shrink item can be insanely powerful. I had an argument with my roommate about the fact that given a small amount of time, I could destroy an adamantine golem with a low-level wizard with it. He didn't believe it until I showed him how I could pull off 300d6 with a single successful attack roll with a 10 cu ft chunk of granite and a simple alter self spell to fly 200 ft above it and deliver Death From Above via Dumbo Drop, both doable by level 5.

He looked like a mix between someone who'd just had his favorite puppy kicked repeatedly and one of those dogs that look at you in utter confusion.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 11:52 AM
no Cleric as a class?

ya know, I always felt the Druid was more scary. and flavorful. comparing the two, it's all about the druid in my book.

and Runestar, you're quite right, it's mostly going overly literal that lets people abuse the hell out of it, no right minded DM is letting anyone abuse Dragonwrought unless everyone else gets shenanigans.

and given you have to be a beholder to qualify for beholder mage, it's got some steep requirements. really steep requirements.

CockroachTeaParty, I agree.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-20, 12:00 PM
I'd probably add the Leadership feat to the list of Top 10 Most Powerful. So many abuses...

sofawall
2010-06-20, 12:31 PM
ya know, I always felt the Druid was more scary. and flavorful. comparing the two, it's all about the druid in my book.

But Clerics have the better spell list.


and given you have to be a beholder to qualify for beholder mage, it's got some steep requirements. really steep requirements.

That... isn't really a hard requirement.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 12:35 PM
But Clerics have the better spell list.



That... isn't really a hard requirement.
true, but druids have cooler abilities, and can still pull the same shenanigans, with less trying.

it is if you're a PC. even if you can convince a DM to let you do it, you will be attacked whenever you go in a city.

sofawall
2010-06-20, 01:00 PM
it is if you're a PC. even if you can convince a DM to let you do it, you will be attacked whenever you go in a city.

Illusions are somewhat handy for disguising your form. Also, PaO for qualifying.

Beorn080
2010-06-20, 01:01 PM
and given you have to be a beholder to qualify for beholder mage, it's got some steep requirements. really steep requirements.

I'm not sure if being a Beholder is all that steep of a requirement. Heck, I'd jump at the chance to play a Beholder, would be interesting.

Hmm, as for most powerful? Divination's. Sure, everything else listed will kill everything before they are even aware they are under attack, but ya still have to find the guy, and with spells like Legend Lore, Discern Location, and Greater Prying Eyes, you'll find anything you need to kill real quick.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 01:07 PM
Illusions are somewhat handy for disguising your form. Also, PaO for qualifying.

they won't work where the big eye is. you could cover it up, but I'd think a large amount of concentration is needed to make the illusion not look tacked on to this random piece of cloth or armor.

unless the beholder mage can cast it's spells into an antimagic field. which is kinda scary all by itself. I don't think it can, but I can double check.

regardless, like i said in OP, what do you guys think the 10 most powerful things are? make your own list, and put beholder mage on it.

Beorn080
2010-06-20, 01:11 PM
they won't work where the big eye is. you could cover it up, but I'd think a large amount of concentration is needed to make the illusion not look tacked on to this random piece of cloth or armor.

unless the beholder mage can cast it's spells into an antimagic field. which is kinda scary all by itself. I don't think it can, but I can double check.

regardless, like i said in OP, what do you guys think the 10 most powerful things are? make your own list, and put beholder mage on it.

If you haven't hit the final level in beholder mage, I believe you still have little eyes left, and so can close the big eye to prevent antimagic. If you have hit the final level, well, I'm sure there are spells that let you shut your big eye and still see, so you can still use illusions.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-20, 01:11 PM
they won't work where the big eye is. you could cover it up, but I'd think a large amount of concentration is needed to make the illusion not look tacked on to this random piece of cloth or armor.

unless the beholder mage can cast it's spells into an antimagic field. which is kinda scary all by itself. I don't think it can, but I can double check.

regardless, like i said in OP, what do you guys think the 10 most powerful things are? make your own list, and put beholder mage on it.

IIRC one of the requirements for Beholder Mage is putting out the Antimagic Field eye. Besides which you can use a Polymorph Any Object for going through town and dismiss/dispel it later. Hell of a surprise to anyone trying to dispel your magical protections in that case.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-20, 01:12 PM
they won't work where the big eye is. you could cover it up, but I'd think a large amount of concentration is needed to make the illusion not look tacked on to this random piece of cloth or armor.

unless the beholder mage can cast it's spells into an antimagic field. which is kinda scary all by itself. I don't think it can, but I can double check.

regardless, like i said in OP, what do you guys think the 10 most powerful things are? make your own list, and put beholder mage on it.You have to destroy that antimagic eye to become a beholder mage, although you can always polymorph into a beholder (yes, into another one just like you, but with that eye intact) and take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get it back.

You may or may not lose your class features for the duration of the polymorph, though.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 01:21 PM
ah, see I missed that.

well regardless, I am about as liable to see a beholder mage in game as Pun Pun, so I still hold to my list.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-20, 01:25 PM
ah, see I missed that.

well regardless, I am about as liable to see a beholder mage in game as Pun Pun, so I still hold to my list.You want the most powerful and broken things in D&D, and you're refusing to write them in due to being too powerful? :smallsigh:

the humanity
2010-06-20, 01:28 PM
You want the most powerful and broken things in D&D, and you're refusing to write them in due to being too powerful? :smallsigh:

I see your point. you win this time Lycanthromancer. :smallfurious: THIS TIME!!!!
:smalltongue:

(though, as far as details go, it was because I don't think I'll ever see it in game)

Gnaeus
2010-06-20, 01:30 PM
it is if you're a PC. even if you can convince a DM to let you do it, you will be attacked whenever you go in a city.

Central Eye concerns aside, if you are a guard, or even a squad of guards, making about 1 SP per day, and you see a beholder floating through town, minding its own business, chatting with its humanoid friends, you say you are going to attack it???

Run away? Likely.
Ignore it unless it breaks the law? Possible.
Send some private in to very politely ask it what it is doing in your town and would it please leave soon because it is scaring everyone? Maybe

But attack it?

the humanity
2010-06-20, 01:35 PM
Central Eye concerns aside, if you are a guard, or even a squad of guards, making about 1 SP per day, and you see a beholder floating through town, minding its own business, chatting with its humanoid friends, you say you are going to attack it???

Run away? Likely.
Ignore it unless it breaks the law? Possible.
Send some private in to very politely ask it what it is doing in your town and would it please leave soon because it is scaring everyone? Maybe

But attack it?

all the cities with really good stuff to sell tend to have a pretty good quality guard system. I don't think the Lady of Pain would mind though tbh...

look can we leave the beholder discussion? I'm sorry I don't think playing a floating, paranoid head with killer dreads would be fun.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-20, 01:44 PM
all the cities with really good stuff to sell tend to have a pretty good quality guard system. I don't think the Lady of Pain would mind though tbh...

look can we leave the beholder discussion? I'm sorry I don't think playing a floating, paranoid head with killer dreads would be fun.A half-beholder would also qualify. Imagine a normal person but with a small beholder for a head, and chitinous armor plates all over his body.

Now, who wants to speculate on just HOW you get a half-beholder?

I know I don't.

erikun
2010-06-20, 01:44 PM
Right off hand, the most broken things I can think of in 3.5e D&D:

Tainted Scholar/Taint
Beholder Mage
Epic spellcasting
Gate
Shapechange
Manipulate Form (Sarrukh ability)
Shadow Miracles (Shadowcraft Mage PrC interpretation)
Wish SLA (Runecaster PrC, I believe)
Psionic Artificer (craft anything interpretation)
Spell-to-Power Erudite

Not everything on that list needs to be abused, but pretty much anything there will break or define a campaign if someone starts pushing its limits. Metamagic abuse through Incantrix just doesn't seem as bad as being able to craft anything for free, or cast any spell in existance at will, or casting nine spells a round, or free wishes.

Zeta Kai
2010-06-20, 01:46 PM
I have yet to meet a DM who would let a player be a beholder (except for some wacky one-session games), much less one who would allow one to put out their AM eye. How do you put out your eye using RAW? The rules don't cover maiming or mutilation anywhere, & blindness/deafness can't be permanency'd, even on yourself.

The Beholder Mage is an obvious NPC class, & any player trying to use it for themselves is blatantly munchkinizing. IMO, it doesn't qualify as a PrC as we commonly understand it, IE a class that players can aspire to take.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-20, 01:47 PM
Simulacrum can get you infinite free wishes by level 1.

See: Precocious Apprentice (summon mirror mephit).

Summon the mephit, have it make you a simulacrum of an efreeti, then wish for more simulacrums. Voila.

For Valor
2010-06-20, 01:51 PM
The Omniscificer, Twice-Betrayer of Shar, Pun-pun, 1d2 Crusader, and the DM... to start things off...

SurlySeraph
2010-06-20, 02:04 PM
Open-ended Polymorph effects, including Manipulate Form. They give us Pun-Pun, easy qualification for Beholder Mage, rogues and fighters turned into 12-headed cryohydras and firbolgs for more attacks and more strength, wizards turned into gold dragons for extra Int, Warshapers who have spent their last few hundred move actions turning themselves into a ball of Colossal tentacles, and so much more.


I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

Sigged.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-20, 02:07 PM
In no particular order:

-Taint

-Tainted Scholar

-Subverted Psion

-Unfettered Heroism

-Planar Shepard

-Dweomer Keeper

-Spell To Power Erudite

-Wizard

-Cleric

-Druid

-Archivist

-Humans

OracleofWuffing
2010-06-20, 02:27 PM
Diplomacy? I mean, sure, it's not exactly chain-gating, but there are a few deities that I wouldn't mind having on my side and being directly helpful to me.

erikun
2010-06-20, 02:32 PM
I can't believe I forgot Leadership! Of course, getting a 2nd PC of nearly the same level will be a powerful benefit. I also forgot about the Celerity feat as well; I guess I just wasn't thinking of feats at the time.

Then again, Leadership is only as bad (or as good) as the classes you have access to.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 02:32 PM
Diplomacy? I mean, sure, it's not exactly chain-gating, but there are a few deities that I wouldn't mind having on my side and being directly helpful to me.

skills are useful, but everybody has the ability to use them... consider skills included in classes, for example you could justify beguiler being scary because they get diplomacy as a class skill and enough skill points to use it.

Shinizak
2010-06-20, 02:58 PM
I think number one on the list should be common sense followed closely by clever ingenuity.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-20, 03:05 PM
I think number one on the list should be common sense followed closely by clever ingenuity.The first is Wis and the second is Int, but it's mostly just fluff-text.

Shinizak
2010-06-20, 03:11 PM
Nope, I don't mean wis and int. a clever player with his choice of 5 levels could probably take out a powerful (10+ cr) enemy given the right time and terrain.

=D

Eurus
2010-06-20, 03:14 PM
In no particular order:

-Taint

-Tainted Scholar

-Subverted Psion

-Unfettered Heroism

-Planar Shepard

-Dweomer Keeper

-Spell To Power Erudite

-Wizard

-Cleric

-Druid

-Archivist

-Humans

I actually don't get how Taint itself is supposed to be broken without the obscene PrCs that base casting off of it (which are on the list separately).

Flickerdart
2010-06-20, 03:20 PM
I actually don't get how Taint itself is supposed to be broken without the obscene PrCs that base casting off of it (which are on the list separately).
't ain't.

:smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2010-06-20, 03:24 PM
skills are useful, but everybody has the ability to use them... consider skills included in classes, for example you could justify beguiler being scary because they get diplomacy as a class skill and enough skill points to use it.

Diplomacy-by-RAW still deserves a special mention, I think. With other skills you can pump your check all you like and it's generally fine- you can jump really high, or hear somebody casting a Silenced spell, or make the finest silverware anybody has ever known, and that generally won't break the game. But with a Diplomacy check you can have a brief chat with any being at all that understands speech and make them your devoted friend. Obstructive town guard? Diplomacy. Merchant not giving you a good price? Diplomacy. Bandits want your GP or your HP? Diplomacy. Demon fundamentally and inherently opposed to absolutely everything you stand for and wanting to drag your soul to the lower planes to be reforged into an abominable war machine? Diplomacy.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 03:42 PM
Diplomacy-by-RAW still deserves a special mention, I think. With other skills you can pump your check all you like and it's generally fine- you can jump really high, or hear somebody casting a Silenced spell, or make the finest silverware anybody has ever known, and that generally won't break the game. But with a Diplomacy check you can have a brief chat with any being at all that understands speech and make them your devoted friend. Obstructive town guard? Diplomacy. Merchant not giving you a good price? Diplomacy. Bandits want your GP or your HP? Diplomacy. Demon fundamentally and inherently opposed to absolutely everything you stand for and wanting to drag your soul to the lower planes to be reforged into an abominable war machine? Diplomacy.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned or considered. I'm saying it's a class ability, like sneak attack or wild shape.

tyckspoon
2010-06-20, 03:49 PM
I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned or considered. I'm saying it's a class ability, like sneak attack or wild shape.

But it's not, really. The nature of the skill system ensures that; classes with Diplomacy as a class skill have an edge, certainly, but anybody who wants to invest their resources in it can Diplomance. There are enough Diplomacy and/or Cha-skill-check boosters around to pull it off on a cross-class base.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 04:43 PM
But it's not, really. The nature of the skill system ensures that; classes with Diplomacy as a class skill have an edge, certainly, but anybody who wants to invest their resources in it can Diplomance. There are enough Diplomacy and/or Cha-skill-check boosters around to pull it off on a cross-class base.

if you really want to, you can put it in your list.

since everybody can do it though, it's not particularly broken or powerful. it just is, like using a figure and a grid, or rolling a dice for hit points.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-20, 04:53 PM
I actually don't get how Taint itself is supposed to be broken without the obscene PrCs that base casting off of it (which are on the list separately).

It's not the most broken thing around but high taint scores yield two free general feats to a character which to me is essentially a something for nothing.

Sliver
2010-06-20, 04:53 PM
if you really want to, you can put it in your list.

since everybody can do it though, it's not particularly broken or powerful. it just is, like using a figure and a grid, or rolling a dice for hit points.

How making your nemesis into a dude that doesn't care about you (or worse, your friend?) in a single round isn't broken? Making it available to everybody doesn't make it less powerful.

"Well, X isn't dangerous because everybody can have it" doesn't really work that well.

ericgrau
2010-06-20, 04:56 PM
Shivering touch and belt of battle probably top my list.

Orb of X is a biggy for abusive non-core power, but it might not make the top 10 overall.

The thing about shapechange/polymorph/etc. is that it is a core thing but it mostly becomes abusive when you add in non-core forms with low HD and high CR. Or, in core only, obscure tricks like custom dire tiger barding. Otherwise you basically get the ability to transform into something with CR = 1/2 your level. Sure it's a highly versatile array of amazing tricks, but the amount of raw power is highly lacking.

Gate/wish chaining is largely theoretical; I don't think it ever appears in real games. Likewise pun-pun isn't much of a non-core example. I think the list of what could theoretically be abused is endless for both. Heck, you can find a hundred practical things too. To say core is the only place for abuse is the extremely silly result of someone who's spent too long trying to win internet arguments.

Zeta Kai
2010-06-20, 05:18 PM
if you really want to, you can put it in your list.

since everybody can do it though, it's not particularly broken or powerful. it just is, like using a figure and a grid, or rolling a dice for hit points.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong there.

Yes, everyone can have as high a Diplomancy rank as they need. But Diplomacy explicitly doesn't work on PCs. The DM, & all the NPCs that s/he commands, cannot affect a PC with their Diplomacy attempts. PCs are immune, & therefore there is an inherent imbalance of power at work here.

the humanity
2010-06-20, 05:38 PM
I'm not going to argue every point of what I say.

you are all right, I'm wrong. I'm no big expert anyways. I just have an opinion.

Magikeeper
2010-10-13, 09:06 PM
Hey, it’s your list. We just want to explain where we are coming from. In your defense, I do find that telling people that they are wrong puts them in a bad mood though. I think it is better to just explain your reasoning.

Hmm... dust of sneezing and choking is a beast. Not as strong as the current 10 though.

I’m not sure I would allow beholder mage, but I would probably let a PC be a beholder if they wanted too. Depends a little on the party.

Diplomacy is right out, though. It is one of the few things I have simply removed as it just isn’t worth fixing. I know some people are bad at speaking in-character, but I’d have people summarize how they imagine their pc speaking before I used that crazy rule. The DC has no relation to the target! “Yes, my level ~5ish PC can make any entity in the universe that can understand what I say into my bestest friend![/i]” And that’s without serious optimization. You can churn out PC builds that even hit mindless undead, and do it in a single round to boot. No-save mind control, basically.

Heck, a level 5 core-only half elf bard can have a +25 with ranks, synergy, skill focus, a masterwork tool, and an 18 cha. That’s enough to eat the -10 and make a 1-round diplomacy check with a 75% chance of rendering hostile enemies unfriendly. 50% chance of rendering them indifferent.

Diplomacy is one of the strongest attacks in D&D. It tends to sink below the radar because most DMs do not use it as written.

true_shinken
2010-10-13, 09:12 PM
Thought Bottle and Emancipated Spawn spring to mind.

Eldariel
2010-10-13, 09:32 PM
Hm, well, off the top of my head, it's a matter of whether you want things that are too cheap or simply too powerful to exist. And it's hard to categorize items with classes. Obvious Tier 0 classes would be something like:
Illithid Savant
Tainted Scholar
Dweomerkeeper
Planar Shepherd

Those just break the game so bad it can't really exist. Well, Tainted Scholar a bit less than the other two, but we're still talking about having infinite casting stat and such. Illithid Savant is basically Pun-Pun Jr. and Dweomerkeeper has the wonderful ability of turning every spell component-free, uncounterable and all that. Which among other things means free Wishes & Gods under your control which people often equate to winning D&D. Planar Shepherd is a weird case since its Time Stop is only about 3 times more powerful than the real thing and a Su-ability, but its Super Shapechange giving it more or less every spell in the game as an SLA is actually really close to Dweomerkeeper so it kinda belongs here.

Next up we'd probably have the "merely insanely busted" stuff:
Beholder Mage
Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/etc.
Cancer Mage
Hulking Hurler

They aren't nearly as "broken" as the earlier classes in that they merely screw everything up instead of basically causing Divide by 0-error. Beholder Mage casts like 10 spells a turn, Incantatrix persists every spell in existence and then some (and some more stuff, of course), but yeah... Cancer Mage just has infinite stats 'cause of few stupid diseases that exist. Hulking Hurler is the least impressive of the lot but it can still destroy a planet or two in a standard action so it should kinda count.


Note that much of this is hard to list; Incantatrix, Beholder Mage, Dweomerkeeper & Tainted Scholar are only truly busted because spellcasting exists. They're the best abusers of the spellcasting but if this game contained no spells, they just wouldn't be that crazy. It's particularly the existence of like Ice Assassin, Simulacrum, Wish, Miracle, Gate and the like that truly breaks Dweomerkeeper/Planar Shepherd; insanely powerful spells with troublesome components.

Incantatrix is mostly broken because of the existence of metamagic (what with it being a metamagic-focused PrC) and Tainted Scholar is...well, a poorly thought-out mechanic giving 'em infinite casting stats and free metamagic and such. I could also be naming Spelldancer, Halruaan Elder, Hathran and crap like that here but they're broken really for the same reason Incantatrix is. Forgotten Realms... :smallfurious:

But yeah, spellcasting breaks some of the classes, specific spells break few of them, specific diseases break Cancer Mage and generic mechanics of carrying capacity converted into damage breaks Hulking Hurler (lolmultipliedbysize&every10Str).


Also, while none of that stuff is Core, the reasons they are broken are mostly Core. Though it's hard to imagine a world where being able to turn into basically every creature and gaining their SLAs wouldn't be busted, still, the core that breaks that stuff is from Core. Monster Manual in particular breaks more stuff than anything which is, coincidentally, why most of the brokenness is stuff that calls things and compels them to service giving you cheap access to spells (see how many different things combine to break them? You have the class/spell itself; then the creature that channels you something; then the channeled thing itself - the way costs are mitigated due to this channeling and the ease of access and the power of channeled thing when unfettered by costs tends to totally break things; or the power of the channeled thing, period.), or allows you to turn into stuff gaining their abilities.

There are also other enablers on similar level (which do you call "broken", Divine Metamagic or the easy means of getting lots of turn attempts á la Nightsticks, Reliquary Holy Symbol, etc.?) and the broken items (á la Candle of Invocation & co.) and spells (Gate, Shapechange, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, bla bla bla - these have already been named enough times) making pinpointing the core of the issue hard. Of course you could also name Diplomacy & co. but who cares at this point?

Obviously though, if things were to be designed in a non-broken manner:
- Spell costs must either be somehow paid for regardless of what uses the spells, or spells must be fair even without the cost. (Lots and lots of stuff falls under this; Planar Shepherd, Shapechange, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Gate, etc.)
- It mustn't be easy to gain abilities of creatures. Yet, as long as it's possible, the costs of spells must be such that they aren't broken when used through proxies since otherwise that limits what abilities monsters can be given, which simply isn't good for the game. (Gate, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, etc. I'm looking at you!)
- Obviating costs in general shouldn't be easy (Whole Friggin' Forgotten Realms, WHYYYYY?).
- Making a class that gains power through X limitlessly and creating immunity to X isn't a good idea, mmmkay? (Cancer Mage, Tainted Scholar, I'm looking at you).
- Gaining power from a score that increases exponentially is probably bad (Hulking Hurler says hi). As a corollary, exponentially increasing anything is probably bad.
- If you have Round/level spells with insane power, making it easy to make them last 24 hours probably isn't a good idea.

Zeb The Troll
2010-10-14, 01:38 AM
Troll Patrol: Thread locked for necromancy. Please don't post in threads that have been inactive for more than six weeks.