PDA

View Full Version : Most Pathetic 3.x dnd class



Ilmryn
2010-06-20, 10:34 AM
To go along with my "pathetic monster" thread, what 3.x dnd base class is the most pathetic ever?

Critical
2010-06-20, 10:35 AM
Commoner?..

mikej
2010-06-20, 10:38 AM
Aside from NPC classes.

CW Samurai. Without extreme optimization of the skill "Intimidate."

Edit: Since it's bond to happen. The Monk.

Morph Bark
2010-06-20, 10:38 AM
It doesn't get more common knowledge than the Commoner being the most pathetic class.

For NPC classes, there's the Samurai. Either version.

For "casters" there's the Truenamer. Or the Healer.

mikej
2010-06-20, 10:44 AM
It doesn't get more common knowledge than the Commoner being the most pathetic class.

Commoners do get access to "Chicken Infested" though. You can do a lot with all those chickens. I'm joking.

Ilmryn
2010-06-20, 10:49 AM
It doesn't get more common knowledge than the Commoner being the most pathetic class.

Well, i did mean PC classes... Of course the commoner is pathetic, but it was made to be so.

Talon Sky
2010-06-20, 10:57 AM
It doesn't get more common knowledge than the Commoner being the most pathetic class.

For NPC classes, there's the Samurai. Either version.

I dunno if I completely agree with that assessment. The OA Samurai can kick some major tail if built right. ^_^

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the qualifier 'NPC classes' there.

I would say....the paladin, in my opinion. It's a great class at lower levels, but I've yet to see a high level paladin who is much better then your average fighter with a good amount of magical items. Perks can be great, but they come early on. After a few levels, they just don't get much.

Gnaeus
2010-06-20, 11:03 AM
I would say....the paladin, in my opinion. It's a great class at lower levels, but I've yet to see a high level paladin who is much better then your average fighter with a good amount of magical items. Perks can be great, but they come early on. After a few levels, they just don't get much.

1. An average fighter + a good amount of magical items is still way better than many tier 5 classes.

2. That is just core. Add in Complete Champion and SPC, and the paladin can lose all his magic items and operate at a level of functionality that completely eludes a poorly equipped fighter. He can make his sword into a +5 holy weapon as a swift action (Holy Sword, Battle Blessing), take a free move across the battlefield (Travel Devotion powered by his turn attempts), and full attack in the same round. He can cast a spell on his mount and soar into the air to engage flying opponents. With splat support, paladin lives at the top of tier 5, if not tier 4.

Ilmryn
2010-06-20, 11:04 AM
Well, if 3.0 is included, definitely the most pathetic class is the 3.0 psion. As a caster, its worse than the Truenamer. Now the 3.5 psion, that one's okay.

Rothen
2010-06-20, 11:17 AM
Well, if 3.0 is included, definitely the most pathetic class is the 3.0 psion. As a caster, its worse than the Truenamer.

Nah, still not even close. The 3.0 class lacked a lot of PP, that's true. But they could still manifest their powers without ridiculous amounts of optimization.

We're talking about the Truenamer here.

nekomata2
2010-06-20, 11:22 AM
For "casters" there's the Truenamer. Or the Healer.

Healers get Gate. Takes a long time getting there, but they get something. Besides, they are full casters and there are ways to expand the list.

I do vote truenamer though, considering it relies on a broken mechanic to work, and while it can work with some optimization, it's hardly worth the effort.

Ilmryn
2010-06-20, 11:22 AM
Nah, still not even close. The 3.0 class lacked a lot of PP, that's true. But they could still manifest their powers without ridiculous amounts of optimization.

We're talking about the Truenamer here.

The truenamer can actually deal damage. It dosen't require ridiculous optimization, just ridiculous skill-boost items...
The main issue with the 3.0 psion is not the lack of PP, its the mediocre blasting powers(a cleric can blast better), and the worst case of Multiple Attribute Dependency in dnd history.

houlio
2010-06-20, 11:28 AM
Not to cause any quibbles, but in my experience the most pathetic class is the CA Ninja. It was most likely the build my friend was doing, but I just felt so bad for him.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 11:33 AM
CAdv Ninja is awful, it's true. I think the CWar Samurai is worse, though.

Truenamer, I can't argue with, it's ridiculously bad.

Honorable mention to the Paladin for being the class I hate the most.

Stompy
2010-06-20, 11:33 AM
I'm going to have to go with the CW samurai on this one*, as several other posters have mentioned. The main reason being that it combines some of the worst mechanics from 3.5 into the class (TWF without auxillary damage, forced weaponry, intimidate tricks that require cheese to get them to work, forced feats), yet is still "awesome" and simple enough for a newer-to-the-game audience to play it. I just hate giving the talk about quadratic wizards, linear fighters, and why TWF is horrible without bonus damage.

*I would say monk, but they are gestaltable, and I find them fun until 7th level, the fabled level were traditional melee sucks too much.

Rothen
2010-06-20, 11:38 AM
The truenamer can actually deal damage. It dosen't require ridiculous optimization, just ridiculous skill-boost items...


Different names for the same thing. You can't give a truenamer over 60% success rate at level 10 to affect a CR-appropriate encounter without custom magic items - and that's before taking into account the increased DC for every succesful utterance.

The law of resistance is without doubt the most ridiculous bit about truenamers.

Shpadoinkle
2010-06-20, 11:42 AM
Barring NPC classes, I'd definitely vote for CW samurai. They get pathetic abilites. They COULD be playable if they got thier abilities ten levels earlier and had better abilites for levels 11-20, but as is they're just... It's like WotC was saying to players "Do you stupid *******s get it yet? We HATE warriors, play a damn caster!"

Ilmryn
2010-06-20, 11:46 AM
Different names for the same thing. You can't give a truenamer over 60% success rate at level 10 to affect a CR-appropriate encounter without custom magic items - and that's before taking into account the increased DC for every succesful utterance.

The law of resistance is without doubt the most ridiculous bit about truenamers.

A custom skill item is surprisingly cheap, and it stacks with the amulet desribed in ToM. Althought the skill boosting i have been doing is spellcraft for epic casting and not truespeak, the principle is the same.
Well, the 3.0 psion is does damage equivalent to a 1st level spell with a third level power.
Although both the truenamer and the 3.0 psion have one thing in common. They both needed a fix. The truenamer didn't get it.

Stompy
2010-06-20, 12:08 PM
A custom skill item is surprisingly cheap, and it stacks with the amulet desribed in ToM. Althought the skill boosting i have been doing is spellcraft for epic casting and not truespeak, the principle is the same.
Well, the 3.0 psion is does damage equivalent to a 1st level spell with a third level power.
Although both the truenamer and the 3.0 psion have one thing in common. They both needed a fix. The truenamer didn't get it.

Most games (in my experience) don't allow custom items though. EDIT: I would have honestly picked this class, but I haven't met many people who know this class exists and don't participate on gaming boards like these.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 12:10 PM
Honestly, until 20th level, the Truenamer doesn't really get any effects that are all that impressive, even if he can regularly hit the DC.

Sliver
2010-06-20, 12:17 PM
Isn't CW Samurai just a poorly prebuilt fighter?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 12:24 PM
Isn't CW Samurai just a poorly prebuilt fighter?
Yup, pretty much.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-06-20, 12:30 PM
CAdv Ninja is awful, it's true.

That said, with liberal use of Dragon Magazine variants, you can swap out some of your crappy invisibility stuff for access to some nice solid-fog effects, improving the class immensely.

Draz74
2010-06-20, 12:49 PM
Honestly, until 20th level, the Truenamer doesn't really get any effects that are all that impressive, even if he can regularly hit the DC.

Frankly, this is a much bigger problem with the Truenamer class than any of the problems with its actual casting mechanic. The Utterances, even if they go off successfully, range from "Kind of nifty, not bad really, but lacking serious punch," to "Ugh, terrible." With a greater number in the "terrible" category than in the "nifty" category.

Heh. Kind of makes me want to try out a very simple Wizard nerf: "Replace all arcane spells with all Utterances."


Isn't CW Samurai just a poorly prebuilt fighter?

Except for a couple class skills, and the one Intimidate-based ability that is the basis of Shneekey's Samurai build ... yes.

Lans
2010-06-20, 01:53 PM
Different names for the same thing. You can't give a truenamer over 60% success rate at level 10 to affect a CR-appropriate encounter without custom magic items - and that's before taking into account the increased DC for every succesful utterance.

The law of resistance is without doubt the most ridiculous bit about truenamers.

Actually you can pretty easily

DC for a CR 10 is 35
10 for the Amulet of Silver tongue, 10 for being part of the paragnostic apostles, 13 for skill points, and 3 for skill focus, so thats 36 with out taking into account intellegence, item familiars, various skill boosts, marshal, etc

And next level they will be all like, "I pull out my scroll of gate and activate it" Next round, I fix my scroll of Gate... precious

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 01:56 PM
Being a member of the Paragnostic Assembly is hardly a minor or small thing, though. That's a ton of fluff, that's not likely to be found in most settings, and doesn't fit most characters.

Lans
2010-06-20, 01:59 PM
Don't really care, he said you couldn't with out custom items and I pointed out how you could.
An intelligence of 16, being an illumian, and a level dip into marshal would also have worked.

erikun
2010-06-20, 02:00 PM
Healers get Gate. Takes a long time getting there, but they get something. Besides, they are full casters and there are ways to expand the list.
Don't Truenamers get Gate as well at higher levels? Although they still have the problem of trying to succeed at their own casting. Healers can do their job, just not as well as many others. Truenamers just have trouble doing their job.


Well, if 3.0 is included, definitely the most pathetic class is the 3.0 psion. As a caster, its worse than the Truenamer. Now the 3.5 psion, that one's okay.
A CON-psion was the most SAD character you could create. Thankfully, 3.5e fixed pretty much all the problems with the psion, on both sides of the fence.

For Valor
2010-06-20, 02:01 PM
CW Samurai is definitely the worst. It's the only tier 6 PC class in existance. Concerning PrCs, I'd have to say the Arcane Archer, Talon of Tiamat, Eye of Lolth, Acolyte of the Skin, and Witchborn Binder.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 02:13 PM
For PrCs, the Green Star Adept has to be mentioned.

RandomLunatic
2010-06-20, 03:58 PM
And Duelist.

Rothen
2010-06-20, 04:02 PM
Actually you can pretty easily

DC for a CR 10 is 35
10 for the Amulet of Silver tongue, 10 for being part of the paragnostic apostles, 13 for skill points, and 3 for skill focus, so thats 36 with out taking into account intellegence, item familiars, various skill boosts, marshal, etc

And next level they will be all like, "I pull out my scroll of gate and activate it" Next round, I fix my scroll of Gate... precious

I can make my CWar Samurai contirubte too, if I get DM fiat while the rest of the party doesn't.

I've read Zaq's thread about his experiences too, but it's really sad what kind of things his DM had to allow to be even sort of effective.

The fact that this is necessary to make the class effective, pretty much says it all.

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-20, 04:20 PM
I'd have to say either Healer, or Fighter

Healer, couse it tries to step on the cleric's shoes and fails at it.

Fighter, couse it never got updated from edition to edition while everything got new shinnies.

Ya know what, Tack Samurai onto that list. For the same reason as Healer.

Frosty
2010-06-20, 04:20 PM
Isnt this just a rehash of the Tier lit and the PrC tier list?

Kurald Galain
2010-06-20, 04:30 PM
Isnt this just a rehash of the Tier lit and the PrC tier list?

That depends. Is the "most pathetic" class the weakest class, or the one that tries hardest at a particular task while still failing at it, or the one that seems best on paper but Is A Trap in actual gameplay?

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-20, 04:31 PM
the one that tries hardest at a particular task while still failing at it,

I'd have to say this one :smallsmile:

9mm
2010-06-20, 06:29 PM
I can make my CWar Samurai contirubte too, if I get DM fiat while the rest of the party doesn't.

I've read Zaq's thread about his experiences too, but it's really sad what kind of things his DM had to allow to be even sort of effective.

The fact that this is necessary to make the class effective, pretty much says it all.

you don't need DM fiat to contribute; imperious comand outside of reach as a loopable move action is a potential encounter ender.

Lans
2010-06-20, 08:27 PM
I can make my CWar Samurai contirubte too, if I get DM fiat while the rest of the party doesn't.

\
What DM Fiat are you refering to exactly?

Zaq
2010-06-20, 08:39 PM
Different names for the same thing. You can't give a truenamer over 60% success rate at level 10 to affect a CR-appropriate encounter without custom magic items - and that's before taking into account the increased DC for every succesful utterance.

The law of resistance is without doubt the most ridiculous bit about truenamers.

You misspelled "sequence."

Anyway, I nominate the Divine Mind. It has pretty much NOTHING it can do well. I once ran one as an NPC and got bored with him before he left the picture... and he was a mook used in a single combat! It has nothing unique, useful, or synergistic.

Merk
2010-06-20, 09:14 PM
Gonna cast my vote for Soulknife. I've never seen an instance with a pure soulknife able to contribute. Soulbow helps, but it's their only real workaround; monks and paladins are at least viable dips for 2 levels (and paladin gets much better splat support, monks have tashalatora, etc.)

Scorpions__
2010-06-20, 09:57 PM
*Stands up in circle* I am Flynn Ringrose, and I like Truenamers.





DM[F]R

Chrono22
2010-06-20, 10:01 PM
The Fighter.

At least the monk has non-ac defenses.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 10:22 PM
Woah... there's a lot of hating on the monk here...
Sandals of Tiger's leap, Flying kick, Mantis leap, Dire charge, etc. etc. etc.
Just imagine, with all the feats that add/multiply damage on an unarmed charge, using the monk BAB from the Oriental adventures as well as a few other feats, you can make a full attack with 10 attacks at x4 damage at least, with power attack for silliness.

The monk can do anything a fighter can without having to even look at a sword or don a piece of armor, complete kick-assedry, and more.
I loooooove monks, there's so much awesome stuff you can do with them if you really take the time.

Not to mention the ridiculousness of Vow of poverty. You could really break a game with that build (I did, one-shotting boss monsters for almost 100 damage at like level 5)

But, what you believe is up to you. I love monks, their so fun to play.

Now, for the worst class in the game? Hmmm... I'd have to go with... Bard. I mean, he tries to do a lot and ends up only being useful if there are OTHER people in the party.

Now, including every class in every book? That's a really hard decision... But, spellthief. It really does suck at just about everything. It is completely reliant on the fact that you face enemies with magic abilities and isn't even that good in most of those situations, compared to other classes.

Prestige class? Illithid Slayer (or whatever it's called). It's also completely reliant on something: Illithids. And even if there are illithids, what's to be done when you beat them? Nothing, you're now useless.

Zaq
2010-06-20, 10:23 PM
Woah... there's a lot of hating on the monk here...
Sandals of Tiger's leap, Flying kick, Mantis leap, Dire charge, etc. etc. etc.
Just imagine, with all the feats that add/multiply damage on an unarmed charge, using the monk BAB from the Oriental adventures as well as a few other feats, you can make a full attack with 10 attacks at x4 damage at least, with power attack for silliness.

The monk can do anything a fighter can without having to even look at a sword or don a piece of armor, complete kick-assedry, and more.
I loooooove monks, there's so much awesome stuff you can do with them if you really take the time.

Not to mention the ridiculousness of Vow of poverty. You could really break a game with that build (I did, one-shotting boss monsters for almost 100 damage at like level 5)

But, what you believe is up to you. I love monks, their so fun to play.

Now, for the worst class in the game? Hmmm... I'd have to go with... Bard. I mean, he tries to do a lot and ends up only being useful if there are OTHER people in the party.

Now, including every class in every book? That's a really hard decision... But, spellthief. It really does suck at just about everything. It is completely reliant on the fact that you face enemies with magic abilities and isn't even that good in most of those situations, compared to other classes.

Prestige class? Illithid Slayer (or whatever it's called). It's also completely reliant on something: Illithids. And even if there are illithids, what's to be done when you beat them? Nothing, you're now useless.

...Popcorn, anyone?

Greenish
2010-06-20, 10:34 PM
...Popcorn, anyone?Why, yes please.

mrcarter11
2010-06-20, 10:43 PM
Pass me some?

Wonton
2010-06-20, 10:45 PM
Why, yes please.

I'll have some of that Jalapeno kind.

Edit: Jalapeño.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 10:46 PM
Hey, I know it was a long post, but hating on the monk is a low blow to me. xP

Gorgondantess
2010-06-20, 10:47 PM
Prestige class? Illithid Slayer (or whatever it's called). It's also completely reliant on something: Illithids. And even if there are illithids, what's to be done when you beat them? Nothing, you're now useless.

Actually, the illithid slayer is quite superb, even without an illithid to slay. 9/10 manifesting, full BAB, and resistance to mind affecting culminating at a permanent mind blank at level 9. I'd say it's an excellent PrC for any psychic warrior or otherwise gishy manifester.
Of course, it's been updated to be less illithid-y (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm), so yeah, the illithid slayer is bad because there's something flat out better out there.


Back on topic, the most pathetic class is hands down the soulknife. A samurai or monk or paladin or truenamer can all be at least pretty good at level 20, if well cheesed. The soulknife is just flat out useless without the soulbow, though- well, unless you do something like UMD abuse, but any class can do that with the help of able learner.

nekomata2
2010-06-20, 10:54 PM
Woah... there's a lot of hating on the monk here...
Sandals of Tiger's leap, Flying kick, Mantis leap, Dire charge, etc. etc. etc.
Just imagine, with all the feats that add/multiply damage on an unarmed charge, using the monk BAB from the Oriental adventures as well as a few other feats, you can make a full attack with 10 attacks at x4 damage at least, with power attack for silliness.

The monk can do anything a fighter can without having to even look at a sword or don a piece of armor, complete kick-assedry, and more.
I loooooove monks, there's so much awesome stuff you can do with them if you really take the time.

Not to mention the ridiculousness of Vow of poverty. You could really break a game with that build (I did, one-shotting boss monsters for almost 100 damage at like level 5)

But, what you believe is up to you. I love monks, their so fun to play.

Now, for the worst class in the game? Hmmm... I'd have to go with... Bard. I mean, he tries to do a lot and ends up only being useful if there are OTHER people in the party.

Now, including every class in every book? That's a really hard decision... But, spellthief. It really does suck at just about everything. It is completely reliant on the fact that you face enemies with magic abilities and isn't even that good in most of those situations, compared to other classes.

Prestige class? Illithid Slayer (or whatever it's called). It's also completely reliant on something: Illithids. And even if there are illithids, what's to be done when you beat them? Nothing, you're now useless.

So no one is really gonna touch this?

OK, as for the monk, you mention feats and magic items, but with enough of those you have the ubercharger, or chain tripper....and those classes do it better. Only flurry there is monk. And unless I'm forgetting something, PA with unarmed strike isn't doing nearly as much as the greatsword PA.

As for Vow of Poverty......did you ever fight a flying enemy? VoP is a trap....

I mean, if you have fun with the monk, more power to you, they just aren't a strong class.

Oh, and Bards are amazing, even straight bard. They are a full caster with unique spells. But pullin DFI, or Snowflake Wardance, or Sublime Chord, and bards get even more amazing.

mrcarter11
2010-06-20, 10:59 PM
Ok.. My vote is for truenamer.. samurai and ninja are close seconds though.. If we are going by what class fails at what it is supposed to do.. How bout the fighter.. If we just mean core.. Well, fighter, paladin, or bard.. I would never play any of the three..

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 11:00 PM
Whoa, Bard hate.

Bards in Core are kinda meh. Bards with splatbook support are amazing, incredible, and wonderful. They're an excellent class once you start taking Bardic Music feats and upping their spellcasting with Prestige Classes.

Eldariel
2010-06-20, 11:01 PM
Hey, I know it was a long post, but hating on the monk is a low blow to me. xP

There has...been a lot of discussion on that front. Let me direct you here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4869.0) [Warning: Cross-forum link] for starters, though; specifically the considerations regarding to Monk (it's there in a spoiler-block). It's a somewhat concise exploration into the problems of the class design. There's, of course, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143750) if you're more interested on the subject. Beware though, it's locked, 23 pages, and mostly trash; but at least every single argument ever should have been brought up there somewhere so if you truly wish to know why people say what they say about the class, happy reading.

Consensus is that Monk-abilities are fine...when tacked on a Psychic Warrior, a Swordsage or a Cleric. The Monk-class itself doesn't really progress efficiently that far; the first two levels give some decent returns but beyond that the class features die down, much like with Fighter after 9 levels (if you apply Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher). And Vow of Poverty is fine as long as you don't, y'know, have to fly or teleport or take extra actions or win initiative or...well, yeah.


As for Bards, well, core Bard isn't amazing (but it still has fine low-level Wizard casting - about on the same level as Adept - and few decent songs along with the exceedingly handy Inspire Greatness), but they make natural Diplomancers and Diplomacy tends to be extremely strong in Core, and overall gain a lot of power from their skillmonkey/magic/music combination on that front, and have some decent proficiencies and yeah, the whole "caster"-thing.

Out-of-Core, Bards make almost Sorcerer-level casters with a great repertoire of songs and extreme combat boosts making them able to beat most Core-level martialists of equivalent level by themselves.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 11:05 PM
So no one is really gonna touch this?

OK, as for the monk, you mention feats and magic items, but with enough of those you have the ubercharger, or chain tripper....and those classes do it better. Only flurry there is monk. And unless I'm forgetting something, PA with unarmed strike isn't doing nearly as much as the greatsword PA.

As for Vow of Poverty......did you ever fight a flying enemy? VoP is a trap....

I mean, if you have fun with the monk, more power to you, they just aren't a strong class.

Oh, and Bards are amazing, even straight bard. They are a full caster with unique spells. But pullin DFI, or Snowflake Wardance, or Sublime Chord, and bards get even more amazing.

Ah, well I guess I was just always good at building a monk that was really powerful. I always thought it one of the more powerful classes.
It has the ok BAB, the good saves, a good AC, it can dole out a lot of damage, and it also has some really interesting abilities. I would place it above fighter, paladin, bard, rangers, and psions.

And yes, there are feats that improve power attack damage on a charge with unarmed strike I believe, so essentially you can end up multiplying damage (which is like insta-crits) up to a maximum of x5 or x6, I believe, adding like 5 times power attack damage, with a really high unarmed strike damage.

But really, it's all about opinion. I would really say that spell thief can go rot in a pit, because it's a circumstantial type of character. xD

erikun
2010-06-20, 11:19 PM
Back on topic, the most pathetic class is hands down the soulknife. A samurai or monk or paladin or truenamer can all be at least pretty good at level 20, if well cheesed. The soulknife is just flat out useless without the soulbow, though- well, unless you do something like UMD abuse, but any class can do that with the help of able learner.
I would say Divine Mind, because Soulknife can at least use their abilities to an effect (albeit a weak one). They at least have a use in a low-magic/null magic heavy campaign.


Whoa, Bard hate.
There is Bard hate? Bards are at least halfway decent casters, halfway decent buffers, and get two of the best skills in the game (Diplomancy, Use Magic Device) as class skills keyed of their primary ability score. And, as you pointed out, they get a lot better with non-core feats, prestige classes, or multiclassing in Tome of Battle.

Eldariel
2010-06-20, 11:24 PM
Ah, well I guess I was just always good at building a monk that was really powerful. I always thought it one of the more powerful classes.
It has the ok BAB, the good saves, a good AC, it can dole out a lot of damage, and it also has some really interesting abilities. I would place it above fighter, paladin, bard, rangers, and psions.

Psions and Bards...should not be on that list. I'm...not sure if you have ever seen what an optimized Psion in mid-levels can do, but they can generate an extra action each turn (Schism), take Immediate Action actions (Anticipatory Strike), generate extras off-turn (Synchronity + Linked Power for example) and have a wonderful array of offensive options like Ego Whips, Crystal Shards and normal energy effects, along with Astral Construct.

I...would not underestimate a Psion; the system is more fair than arcane casting comparatively due to the lack of the ridiculousness that is Polymorph Any Object, Gate, Simulacrum, Genesis and the other completely busted spells, and due to Shapechange being a school-specific power on level 9 only available to one specialist as opposed to everyone - but arcane casting is the most broken system in 3.5 so being more fair than it doesn't mean you cannot be incredibly strong. Powers are still incredibly potent even when not flexing their muscle. They're definitely right up there with Sorcerers in terms of capability.

As for Bards...well, if you add +12d6 to damage for yourself along with +12 / +12, and then use Charisma for your base To Hit twice and add Charisma to damage while TWFing, you'll be pretty scary alone. That's achievable...oh, I don't know, on level 8? And then you get Sublime Chord spells on 11 including wonderful stuff like Polymorph that allows you to break combat wide open.


And yes, there are feats that improve power attack damage on a charge with unarmed strike I believe, so essentially you can end up multiplying damage (which is like insta-crits) up to a maximum of x5 or x6, I believe, adding like 5 times power attack damage, with a really high unarmed strike damage.

But really, it's all about opinion. I would really say that spell thief can go rot in a pit, because it's a circumstantial type of character. xD

It's...well, Power Attack multipliers work on all melee, but characters with two-handed weapons do much better with them as they get twice the benefits; your 5x or 6x would be 10x or 12x on Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin...and they can add extra multipliers by going mounted with Lance, for example.

Sufficient to say, number of attacks (Monk ties that with Whirling Frenzy Barbarian), ability to attack multiple times on a Charge (you really want to be a Barbarian for that) and two-handers are the key to dealing a lot of damage; your base damage isn't really relevant when you add ~100 points to each hit. And, of course, full BAB types tend to hit better.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-20, 11:25 PM
Ah, well I guess I was just always good at building a monk that was really powerful. I always thought it one of the more powerful classes.
It has the ok BAB, the good saves, a good AC, it can dole out a lot of damage, and it also has some really interesting abilities. I would place it above fighter, paladin, bard, rangers, and psions.

The BAB is jank for large number of attacks and the Flurry of Blows penalty at low levels. Outside of high PB or insane rolls, the AC bonus only manages to match medium magical armors. Damage requires either the same insane stats as AC or feats spent to get Dex to damage. Plus, you'll be missing out on the most of power attack with only 3/4 BAB and the inability to get the basic 2:1 return from a two-handed weapon. As for the interesting abilities: they are not necessarily good. Slow fall is worse than a first level spell. Poison immunity is useful, but largely meh with a good fort save or simply being undead.

A good monk could go two-to-two with a good fighter and/or non Swift-Hunter ranger, but a decent Paladin will be quick casting everything for free while charging for fun and profit.

And yes, there are feats that improve power attack damage on a charge with unarmed strike I believe, so essentially you can end up multiplying damage (which is like insta-crits) up to a maximum of x5 or x6, I believe, adding like 5 times power attack damage, with a really high unarmed strike damage. Bards rock out so hard that every ally that hears them, self included, has their weapons burst into fire/cold/electricity/acid/sonic. They also have spells to cover defense and simply fly away. Psions are on par with full casters, who generally have a large enough bag of tricks to simply say "no." In particular, Ego Whip leads to quick matches with low CHA peeps.

Hyooz
2010-06-20, 11:30 PM
Ah, well I guess I was just always good at building a monk that was really powerful. I always thought it one of the more powerful classes.
It has the ok BAB, the good saves, a good AC, it can dole out a lot of damage, and it also has some really interesting abilities. I would place it above fighter, paladin, bard, rangers, and psions.


Yes, sir. You beat the entire internet in grand symposia over almost a decade to building a monk that isn't bad.

People have been at this a long, long time. Trying all kinds of combinations and conditions. The monk falls way, way short. Especially compared to any kind of full casters, like, for example, the psion.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 11:36 PM
There has...been a lot of discussion on that front. Let me direct you here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4869.0) [Warning: Cross-forum link] for starters, though; specifically the considerations regarding to Monk (it's there in a spoiler-block). It's a somewhat concise exploration into the problems of the class design. There's, of course, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143750) if you're more interested on the subject. Beware though, it's locked, 23 pages, and mostly trash; but at least every single argument ever should have been brought up there somewhere so if you truly wish to know why people say what they say about the class, happy reading.

Consensus is that Monk-abilities are fine...when tacked on a Psychic Warrior, a Swordsage or a Cleric. The Monk-class itself doesn't really progress efficiently that far; the first two levels give some decent returns but beyond that the class features die down, much like with Fighter after 9 levels (if you apply Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher). And Vow of Poverty is fine as long as you don't, y'know, have to fly or teleport or take extra actions or win initiative or...well, yeah.


As for Bards, well, core Bard isn't amazing (but it still has fine low-level Wizard casting - about on the same level as Adept - and few decent songs along with the exceedingly handy Inspire Greatness), but they make natural Diplomancers and Diplomacy tends to be extremely strong in Core, and overall gain a lot of power from their skillmonkey/magic/music combination on that front, and have some decent proficiencies and yeah, the whole "caster"-thing.

Out-of-Core, Bards make almost Sorcerer-level casters with a great repertoire of songs and extreme combat boosts making them able to beat most Core-level martialists of equivalent level by themselves.

Ok, well I can see where the monk-hate is coming from. I guess I just know how to make the monk work. I know that sounds like a really arrogant or ignorant thing to say, but for some reason when I make a monk and actually put thought into it, it ends up being decently powerful.

And Vow of Poverty is really nice, and it may leave you at a disandvantage in some situations, but it's also really good in a monk build. I mean, giving up weapons and stuff like that? That's essentially a monk already. Oh, and empty body-ing can help a lot with that flying monsters, or insane jump checks (which isn't hard with that high speed)

And it may have to do with the fact that I was playing in a Dark Sun campaign. I had to assume the role of "Party tank", so I looked into some more combat-oriented monk builds, using books like Sword and fist, and I came up with some builds that can make a monk splat a lot of monsters.

Hyooz
2010-06-20, 11:41 PM
Ok, well I can see where the monk-hate is coming from. I guess I just know how to make the monk work. I know that sounds like a really arrogant or ignorant thing to say, but for some reason when I make a monk and actually put thought into it, it ends up being decently powerful.

And it may have to do with the fact that I was playing in a Dark Sun campaign. I had to assume the role of "Party tank", so I looked into some more combat-oriented monk builds, using books like Sword and fist, and I came up with some builds that can make a monk splat a lot of monsters.

You can't punch things while ethereal, so one flying enemy ruins the monk. Sword and Fist is outdated, it's a 3.0 book. Vow of Poverty doesn't fix the Monk... it kills it faster. The Monk NEEDS magical items to participate, especially in the high level play you seem to play in. With an HD like the monk has, you have to be investing very heavily in Con to do anything like party tanking, which is going to kill one of your other necessary scores (Str, Dex, Wis) making the monk even less effective.

I'm confused.

mrcarter11
2010-06-20, 11:42 PM
Ok.. I have only ever seen a single bard played.. And it was terrible.. Beyond terrible.. I mean, I think most fighters could of beaten it.. So that is all I had to base my opinion on.. And I have never seen a psion played before.. So I have no clue on that one..

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-20, 11:43 PM
Ok, well I can see where the monk-hate is coming from. I guess I just know how to make the monk work. I know that sounds like a really arrogant or ignorant thing to say, but for some reason when I make a monk and actually put thought into it, it ends up being decently powerful.

Tell us how you deal with traps, flying enemies, multiple enemies, and spells as a monk.


And Vow of Poverty is really nice, and it may leave you at a disandvantage in some situations, but it's also really good in a monk build. I mean, giving up weapons and stuff like that? That's essentially a monk already. Oh, and empty body-ing can help a lot with that flying monsters, or insane jump checks (which isn't hard with that high speed)

Against level appropriate monsters, monks actually need gear to have a decent AC and to-hit, assuming you just didn't start with something like straight 18s. The second a flying enemy comes into play, a VoP monk either runs or dies, as jump checks generally can't reach 100 feet vertical without gear.


And it may have to do with the fact that I was playing in a Dark Sun campaign. I had to assume the role of "Party tank", so I looked into some more combat-oriented monk builds, using books like Sword and fist, and I came up with some builds that can make a monk splat a lot of monsters.

List said builds then, please. Sword and Fist's material was largely reprinted in Complete Warrior. Hint: Most of it tends to be poor.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 11:51 PM
You can't punch things while ethereal, so one flying enemy ruins the monk. Sword and Fist is outdated, it's a 3.0 book. Vow of Poverty doesn't fix the Monk... it kills it faster. The Monk NEEDS magical items to participate, especially in the high level play you seem to play in. With an HD like the monk has, you have to be investing very heavily in Con to do anything like party tanking, which is going to kill one of your other necessary scores (Str, Dex, Wis) making the monk even less effective.

I'm confused.

No, but you go ethereal, get above the enemy, and five bomb the **** out of them, then make a simple tumble check.
Indeed it is, but this is on the most pathetic 3.x class, so 3.0 is in here.
No, a monk doesn't really need magic items, vow of poverty gives it a lot of bonuses that are up to par on magic items to their level, in addition to free feats! (Have you seen some of the sanctified feats? Use wis instead of strength to hit? Touch of golden ice?)
So yes, it's Dark Sun. No metal, hard to get money, etc. etc.
I have a high AC due to the high wis and dex, as well as a decent strength and constitution. Fighter types start out strong and peter out, wizard types start weak and then bloom later on, roguely-types are pretty decent all around and monks start powerful and remain powerful, that's what dark sun is like.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-20, 11:57 PM
No, but you go ethereal, get above the enemy, and five bomb the **** out of them, then make a simple tumble check.

This works once/day, at most. Don't miss.


Indeed it is, but this is on the most pathetic 3.x class, so 3.0 is in here.
No, a monk doesn't really need magic items, vow of poverty gives it a lot of bonuses that are up to par on magic items to their level, in addition to free feats! (Have you seen some of the sanctified feats? Use wis instead of strength to hit? Touch of golden ice?)

List a level and I'll start listing core monsters, their AC, and probable monk to-hit rates without items. Then I'll do the same with a fighter with items. And, because I'm nice, I'll use the same monk, but with items.

As for the free feats, most of them tend to be "meh." Nymph's Kiss is nice for moar skill points. Touch of Golden Ice is good to start, but the DC is static, so it becomes less and less useful. Wisdom to-hit is nice, but it means nothing unless you have damage to back it up. In DND, you either have +yes amounts of strength and power attack for damage, or you spam attacks with bonus damage like sneak attack to kill things.



So yes, it's Dark Sun. No metal, hard to get money, etc. etc.
I have a high AC due to the high wis and dex, as well as a decent strength and constitution. Fighter types start out strong and peter out, wizard types start weak and then bloom later on, roguely-types are pretty decent all around and monks start powerful and remain powerful, that's what dark sun is like.

See previous statements.

erikun
2010-06-21, 12:01 AM
The Monk is useful in a rather limited aspect. In a low-magic or low-treasure setting, the "free" bonuses from Monk + Vow of Poverty can really add up quickly. In a low optimization game, especially one with a party treasury, the Monk can hold up rather well with other frontline meleers.

On the other hand, there isn't that much to recommend the Monk over... pretty much anything else. A Fighter can take Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting, getting more attacks at a higher value than the Monk. They can even take all the feats you mentioned for the Monk, and at earlier levels to boot. They get to wear armor (ignoring Vow) and, while the Monk has better numbers without magic, the Fighter finds it cheaper to increase his AC than the Monk.

About the only thing the Monk still has is his skills - Stealth, Perception, and Tumble specifically - and fast movement. And you give up your impressive attacks when using the latter.

This ignores the Druid, who basically gets a Warrior as a class ability and generally ends up overshadowing other characters just for being in the group. I'm assuming that we're ignoring full casters in this discussion, although perhaps not.

Hyooz
2010-06-21, 12:04 AM
No, but you go ethereal, get above the enemy, and five bomb the **** out of them, then make a simple tumble check.
Indeed it is, but this is on the most pathetic 3.x class, so 3.0 is in here.
No, a monk doesn't really need magic items, vow of poverty gives it a lot of bonuses that are up to par on magic items to their level, in addition to free feats! (Have you seen some of the sanctified feats? Use wis instead of strength to hit? Touch of golden ice?)
So yes, it's Dark Sun. No metal, hard to get money, etc. etc.
I have a high AC due to the high wis and dex, as well as a decent strength and constitution. Fighter types start out strong and peter out, wizard types start weak and then bloom later on, roguely-types are pretty decent all around and monks start powerful and remain powerful, that's what dark sun is like.

Sounds more like Druids are always awesome, wizards/clerics/psions rule the day even moreso, fighter-types get an even bigger kick in the pants, and monk stays about the same.

I have to wonder what your stats look like. What's 'decent' Con and Str after having high Wis and Dex? I can see a monk having a decent AC in this setting vs. other melee classes, but you're talking about Empty Body, so you're at the point where AC is basically meaningless.

Thing is with the 3.0 Sword and Fist classes... most of them were improved in CWar.

I guess if falling is your big plan for flying enemies... more power to you? One attack that requires me to use rounds of my incredibly limited flight abilities to get off is... terrible. Too bad if you run into an eagle around level 3 though. You can't do that until level 19.

And yeah, Monks still need magic items more than most other classes in the game, and Vow of Poverty doesn't make up for that enough. There's lots of VoP discussion in separate threads, so I won't go too into that. It's not a worthy substitute.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-21, 12:05 AM
Tell us how you deal with traps, flying enemies, multiple enemies, and spells as a monk.
I'd like to see any class other than those design to take down traps deal with a trap. O.o
High reflex save, high AC.
Flying enemies? Empty Body. If non VoP, magic items.
Multiple enemies? Spring attack w/ Flurry. Or, Ring the golden bell feat to use unarmed strike as a ranged attack.
Spells? Exceptional Deflection, spell resistance, high saves.




Against level appropriate monsters, monks actually need gear to have a decent AC and to-hit, assuming you just didn't start with something like straight 18s. The second a flying enemy comes into play, a VoP monk either runs or dies, as jump checks generally can't reach 100 feet vertical without gear.

VoP gives you natural armor and many other AC bonuses that put it up the wazoo. If not that, then a high wisdom and the miscellaneous bonus you get is enough. Plus the ranks of tumble give you better AC bonuses when going into defensive stances.




List said builds then, please. Sword and Fist's material was largely reprinted in Complete Warrior. Hint: Most of it tends to be poor.

Ok, Insightful Strike. Mantis Leap. Sandals of Tiger's Leap. Fists of Iron. Flying Kick. Power Lunge. Dire Charge. Spring Attack. Improved Natural Attack (and all the other feats/items that increase unarmed strike damage). Slashing Fury. Powerful Charge/Greater Powerful Charge. Lightning Fists. Use the Monk BAB bonus from the OO, and you're looking at the following:

Charge in, do 10 attacks with ridiculously multiplied damage (along with a high unarmed strike base damage), plus a really high bonus from power attack.

Forever Curious
2010-06-21, 12:18 AM
I'd like to see any class other than those design to take down traps deal with a trap. O.o


A CHALLENGER APPEARS:

Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid/Psion(?): Summon/create meat puppets and send them in. Plus I think there are a few spells to detect and break traps, but don't quote me on it.

Barbarian/Fighter: There are a few ACF for making them able to wade through traps (Dungeonscape, I believe), plus Barbarian get's Trap Sense.

Bard: Able Learner w/ skill points.

Can't speak for Ranger (never tried to play one)

...so yeah.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-21, 12:22 AM
I'd like to see any class other than those design to take down traps deal with a trap. O.o
High reflex save, high AC.
Flying enemies? Empty Body. If non VoP, magic items.
Multiple enemies? Spring attack w/ Flurry. Or, Ring the golden bell feat to use unarmed strike as a ranged attack.
Spells? Exceptional Deflection, spell resistance, high saves.

To deal with traps, you either: A) Have +yes amounts of HP/AC, B) Have Trapfinding, and/or C) Summon Dead Celestial Monkey.

Magic items work, but Empty Body does not, as it takes a standard action to disengage the etherealness, as it is as the spell, leaving your enemy with a round to move out of the way. Plus, it only works at 19th+ level. PCs can fly from 1st level if done right, 3rd level easily, and 5th level consistently.

Flurry cannot be done on a standard action. Therefore, it does nothing with Spring Attack. The Ring of Golden Bell feat could be useful, but it's limited uses per day and mimics a 1st level spell.

As for your defense against spells, one looks to be an epic feat, which would mean casters have already won by the Epic Spellcasting rules. SR is a joke to Conjuration, as they don't care, and saves can be ignored via judicious use of no-save spells like summons.





VoP gives you natural armor and many other AC bonuses that put it up the wazoo. If not that, then a high wisdom and the miscellaneous bonus you get is enough. Plus the ranks of tumble give you better AC bonuses when going into defensive stances.

Standard WBL tends to do better than what VoP offers. Sure, in an extremely low WBL/magic setting, it may be useful, but that doesn't necessarily make it good. If you're fighting defensively, then your to-hit suffers. In DND, your best defense tends to be a strong offense. There is a reason why chargers take Shock Trooper to tank their AC for Power attack, after all. There's also the fact that tumble is not a monk class feature, so it is not theirs alone.



Ok, Insightful Strike. Mantis Leap. Sandals of Tiger's Leap. Fists of Iron. Flying Kick. Power Lunge. Dire Charge. Spring Attack. Improved Natural Attack (and all the other feats/items that increase unarmed strike damage). Slashing Fury. Powerful Charge/Greater Powerful Charge. Lightning Fists. Use the Monk BAB bonus from the OO, and you're looking at the following:

Charge in, do 10 attacks with ridiculously multiplied damage (along with a high unarmed strike base damage), plus a really high bonus from power attack.

INA is a valid choice, so I can give you that. The rest of the list I am unfamiliar with, but some appear to be epic feats.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-21, 12:22 AM
A CHALLENGER APPEARS:

Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid/Psion(?): Summon/create meat puppets and send them in. Plus I think there are a few spells to detect and break traps, but don't quote me on it.

Barbarian/Fighter: There are a few ACF for making them able to wade through traps (Dungeonscape, I believe), plus Barbarian get's Trap Sense.

Bard: Able Learner w/ skill points.

Can't speak for Ranger (never tried to play one)

...so yeah.

I was assuming he meant in disarming them. But yes, other classes can certainly deal with them, as can a monk. Of course, tying the corpse of the party rogue to a 10 foot pole and prodding the ground with it helps. :P

Lhurgyof
2010-06-21, 12:31 AM
To deal with traps, you either: A) Have +yes amounts of HP/AC, B) Have Trapfinding, and/or C) Summon Dead Celestial Monkey.

Magic items work, but Empty Body does not, as it takes a standard action to disengage the etherealness, as it is as the spell, leaving your enemy with a round to move out of the way. Plus, it only works at 19th+ level. PCs can fly from 1st level if done right, 3rd level easily, and 5th level consistently.

Flurry cannot be done on a standard action. Therefore, it does nothing with Spring Attack. The Ring of Golden Bell feat could be useful, but it's limited uses per day and mimics a 1st level spell.

As for your defense against spells, one looks to be an epic feat, which would mean casters have already won by the Epic Spellcasting rules. SR is a joke to Conjuration, as they don't care, and saves can be ignored via judicious use of no-save spells like summons.






Standard WBL tends to do better than what VoP offers. Sure, in an extremely low WBL/magic setting, it may be useful, but that doesn't necessarily make it good. If you're fighting defensively, then your to-hit suffers. In DND, your best defense tends to be a strong offense. There is a reason why chargers take Shock Trooper to tank their AC for Power attack, after all. There's also the fact that tumble is not a monk class feature, so it is not theirs alone.




INA is a valid choice, so I can give you that. The rest of the list I am unfamiliar with, but some appear to be epic feats.

Okedoke, so the empty body thing isn't quite the best thing ever, with much effort it could work. Hold your movement action to follow your opponent, then use the standard action to flop down onto them. Ok, so flying enemies are out, unless you use Ring the Golden Bell.

Yeah, exceptional deflection is an epic feat, and conjurers? Hmm... tumble through 'em and beat the **** outta the caster.

And yeah, I agree that VoP is good in a low magic campaign, so that's what I used it in.

And the only epic feat there was Dire Charge. The build could be done without it, but you'd be split between either charging in for the ridiculous damage or the 10 attacks.

Now, I can see where you're saying that the monk isn't good. But I like how they can be built, as well as the feel to them. I know that arcane spellcasters, clerics, and druids can become better, I'm simply arguing that it is not the most pathetic.

Gametime
2010-06-21, 12:32 AM
INA is a valid choice, so I can give you that. The rest of the list I am unfamiliar with, but some appear to be epic feats.

Most of them, if I remember correctly, are things from Sword and Fist, as he said. Mantis Leap lets you make a jumping charge, and doubles the damage. Lightning Fists lets you make extra attacks with a full attack action. Tiger Sandals doubles your damage on a charge. I think Flying Kick did the same thing, though I can't find it now.

Some of the feats are actually pretty decent, if you're already building a monk, but they lack a way to gain pounce while making the monk heavily reliant on charges. No full attacks is no fun. Also, they make the monk better at dealing damage, which is honestly the least of a monk's concerns.

Randalor
2010-06-21, 12:37 AM
Is monk a bad class? Usually. Is it the most pathetic? Not by a longshot. Why did this turn into a page and a half of monk debates?

To get this topic back on track: I think wizards are the most pathetic classes, followed shortly by Sorcerers. Why? Well look at the average wizard. Skinny, gangly, wears a dress, has to carry a book everywhere with him otherwise he's helpless. I know what you're thinking, "Yeah, yeah, this guy has no idea what he's talking about. Wizards are one of the most powerful classes out there" but only if they survive long enough to get there. And let's face it, to thoses of us who growing up were the nerds, what's more likely? That the big, strong musclebound jocks would protect us? Or that they would beat us up and take our lunch money? Sounds pretty pathetic to me.

Plus they and sorcerers wear dresses. Nuff said.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-21, 12:38 AM
Okedoke, so the empty body thing isn't quite the best thing ever, with much effort it could work. Hold your movement action to follow your opponent, then use the standard action to flop down onto them. Ok, so flying enemies are out, unless you use Ring the Golden Bell.

Yeah, exceptional deflection is an epic feat, and conjurers? Hmm... tumble through 'em and beat the **** outta the caster.

Thing is, conjurers have no reason not to fly at that point in the game.


And yeah, I agree that VoP is good in a low magic campaign, so that's what I used it in.

Fair enough, but that does not necessarily mean that the strength lies in the monk class.


And the only epic feat there was Dire Charge. The build could be done without it, but you'd be split between either charging in for the ridiculous damage or the 10 attacks.

Ridiculous damage can be achieved much sooner, such as 100+ by 6th level with a charging fighter. That doesn't mean much. If you can't charge, odds are you can't do much else. It's honestly a problem with most melee classes: you have one schtick.


Now, I can see where you're saying that the monk isn't good. But I like how they can be built, as well as the feel to them. I know that arcane spellcasters, clerics, and druids can become better, I'm simply arguing that it is not the most pathetic.

It's better than the CW Samurai, at least.

PId6
2010-06-21, 12:46 AM
Plus they and sorcerers wear dresses. Nuff said.
My sorcerers do not wear dresses! :smallfurious:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3558/3797171464_ab6659157a.jpg

Randalor
2010-06-21, 12:48 AM
Maybe I should change it to "Male wizards and sorcerers wear dresses, female wizards and sorcerers wear pants"? No, better not, someone would try to contradict that statement as well.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 12:51 AM
Is the Monk the most pathetic class in the game? No, the Truenamer's pretty definitely more so. Possibly the CW Samurai. But uh... you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. There really is not much out there more pathetic than the Monk.

If you like the 'feel' of the Monk, I suggest you try a Swordsage from Tome of Battle. They're very similar in feel and flavor to a Monk, but they actually work, unlike the Monk.

Gametime
2010-06-21, 12:52 AM
Maybe I should change it to "Male wizards and sorcerers wear dresses, female wizards and sorcerers wear pants"? No, better not, someone would try to contradict that statement as well.

Male sorcerers wear belts, if the illustration of Hennet is any indication. (Maybe Tetsuyo Nomura (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooManyBelts) is a sorcerer!)

Coidzor
2010-06-21, 12:55 AM
Randalor: Wizards r magikarp, lol.

Stompy
2010-06-21, 12:58 AM
Plus they and sorcerers wear dresses. Nuff said.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/ErjadTCS/Marisa_by_Vixen9.jpg
original DeviantART link (http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=master%20spark&order=9&offset=24#/d11vbcj)

How's that for power level? :smallbiggrin:

Sliver
2010-06-21, 03:45 AM
I just want to observe that most of the "monks are powerful" camp comes from a low optimization group where casters are direct damage dealers most of the time, or perhaps in a setting where it's easier to make them more powerful compared to the rest (no magical weapons/items makes people think monks are more powerful because they seem to not need the magical weapons) and possibly where the encounters aren't varied enough so you face mostly creatures that you can do something with. Sometimes "my monks are powerful" comes with a "with the homebrewed free templates and abilities my DM gave me" which is always amusing.

Rothen
2010-06-21, 04:23 AM
I love how this discussion happens every single week. Someone needs to write a book about this, so we can refer to it.

Sliver
2010-06-21, 04:28 AM
What's wrong with the Giamonk handbook?

Kantolin
2010-06-21, 04:37 AM
Personally, I'd like to give most pathetic class to the Risen Martyr.

I know it's a prestige class, but it's one that gives you a poor BAB (Bad for fighter-types), 2+Int skill points (bad for skill monkeys), no spellcasting improvement (Bad for spellcaster types), and in exchange you get some extremely minor abilities (and admittedly a pretty useful one at level 2 for some people).

But well... Risen Martyr makes you really bad at your previous job unless you're like a commoner. That's pretty awful. And too bad too, as it has wonderful flavor.

PId6
2010-06-21, 04:52 AM
I know it's a prestige class, but it's one that gives you a poor BAB (Bad for fighter-types), 2+Int skill points (bad for skill monkeys), no spellcasting improvement (Bad for spellcaster types), and in exchange you get some extremely minor abilities (and admittedly a pretty useful one at level 2 for some people).
Don't forget the capstone: you die. And you can't multiclass out of it either. So it's a one-way 10-level street to permadeath.

Kantolin
2010-06-21, 04:58 AM
Ai, I got so wrapped up in its other qualities that I actually forgot about its capstone. :P

It also drops your constitution stat, although it then admittedly raises your HD to d12s, so that might be a gain if you had low HD... which you may or may not as there's no logical entry. :P

Evil clerics also make you pop, as an added 'benifit'.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-21, 05:06 AM
Whoa, Bard hate.

Bards in Core are kinda meh. Bards with splatbook support are amazing, incredible, and wonderful. They're an excellent class once you start taking Bardic Music feats and upping their spellcasting with Prestige Classes.

:elan: Play, play, play, play the cool bard class!

Killer Angel
2010-06-21, 06:19 AM
I was assuming he meant in disarming them. But yes, other classes can certainly deal with them, as can a monk. Of course, tying the corpse of the party rogue to a 10 foot pole and prodding the ground with it helps. :P

I would like to see your "optimized" monk, try to do such a thing to a simply decent rogue...
BTW, if you really think your monks can prevale on melee classes (not talking 'bout casters, here), you can try the Test of Spite.


BTW, back on topic. The worst ones are gone, so I had to pick something unusual.
What about the Master Inquisitive (Eberron)?

Greenish
2010-06-21, 09:10 AM
The monk feats Lhurgyof mentioned explained:
Ok, Insightful Strike.First, you set your to-hit dependent on different stat than your damage.

Mantis Leap.You do normal damage + strength mod x2.

Sandals of Tiger's Leap.Double unarmed strike damage when you Unarmed Strike in the end of a charge. Not bad, though it only applies to that last hit.

Fists of Iron.Burn Stunning Fist use for 1d6 damage on that attack. Sad.

Flying Kick.+1d12 damage on a charge.
Power Lunge.x2 str for a hit after a charge.

Dire Charge.Pounce for the first round of combat only. Epic feat. :smallbiggrin: (Oh, and doesn't allow flurry, naturally.)

Spring Attack.One attack during a move action. I don't know what this has to do with the rest of those.

Improved Natural Attack (and all the other feats/items that increase unarmed strike damage).Yeah, increasing the base damage. Not very effective strategy in general.

Slashing Fury.I only found Slashing Flurry from PHBII, but that's not what you meant, I assume.

Powerful Charge/Greater Powerful Charge.Two feats for +2d6 damage on one attack in a charge. Peanuts.

Lightning Fists.Two extra attacks with full attack, -5 to all attacks.Now, if I can piece this together, you get to charge on the first round for (2d10+2xStr+2xStr+1d6+2d6) +3x(2d10+Str) +2x(2d10+Str+1d12).

Your attack sequence (by BAB) is 10/5/0/-5/-5.

Your level is 21 and you have spent 14 feats (unless I forgot some prerequisites). Assuming a generous figure of 30 Strength (to which your to-hit is no longer keyed to), and your average damage on a charge works out to be 179.5 damage, assuming you hit with all of your five attacks with BAB 15 and -5 penalty to all of them.

So, yeah…

[Edit]: Oh, Imp. Natural Attack isn't factored in yet. Maybe I'll add it later.

Ilmryn
2010-06-21, 09:22 AM
Isnt this just a rehash of the Tier lit and the PrC tier list?

I'm pretty new to the forum, so i haven't seen the tier list. I have read several posts talking about tiers for classes. Could someone post the link to the tier list?

Rannil
2010-06-21, 09:27 AM
I'm pretty new to the forum, so i haven't seen the tier list. I have read several posts talking about tiers for classes. Could someone post the link to the tier list?

Tier System For Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0)

Also:
Topic: Why each class is in it's tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.msg175154)

Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)


Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5093.0)

Have fun reading. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 09:35 AM
Healers get Gate.

So do Truenamers.

What makes Healers less pathetic than Truenamers is Spell Compendium, which expands their sorry list considerably. In particular "providing protections" can be interpreted quite broadly to provide some offensive ability, e.g. Glyph and Symbol spells.


Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)


This one needs a lot of work, imo. Is Gray Guard really a +1? Zerth Cenobite might be, but only for monks, definitely not for Archivists. I don't see Exalted Arcanist as a -1 either - it provides comparable benefits to Sandshaper for less investment and that is a +1.

nekomata2
2010-06-21, 09:41 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0

There it is.

Edit: Wow, I got beat out......I'm watching you Swordsages.....

Gnaeus
2010-06-21, 09:45 AM
So do Truenamers.

What makes Healers less pathetic than Truenamers is Spell Compendium, which expands their sorry list considerably. In particular "providing protections" can be interpreted quite broadly to provide some offensive ability, e.g. Glyph and Symbol spells.

The suggestion that healers might get additional spells providing protections does nothing for them by RAW. There is no spell that is not on the healer list that you can point to and say "Healers get this". Exception below.

What makes healers less pathetic than Truenamers is BoED. They can clearly use Sanctified spells, many of which don't suck. Then they can immediately heal the resulting stat damage.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 09:50 AM
The suggestion that healers might get additional spells providing protections does nothing for them by RAW. There is no spell that is not on the healer list that you can point to and say "Healers get this". Exception below.

It may be subject to DM approval (a death-knell in CharOp, I know), it's still more love than Truenamers get, which was my point.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 11:29 AM
Now, if I can piece this together, you get to charge on the first round for (2d10+2xStr+2xStr+1d6+2d6) +3x(2d10+Str) +2x(2d10+Str+1d12).

Assuming a generous figure of 30 Strength (to which your to-hit is no longer keyed to), and your average damage on a charge works out to be 179.5 damage, assuming you hit with all of your five attacks with BAB 15 and -5 penalty to all of them.

So, yeah…

[Edit]: Oh, Imp. Natural Attack isn't factored in yet. Maybe I'll add it later.I'm not actually sure what's the next step after 2d10, but with 3d8 you'd do a grand total of 15 more damage when you hit with all five attacks.

So, Awesome McMonk at level 21 does 194.5 average damage with his charge once per combat.

Knork the humble orc barbarian does 231 average damage with his every charge. Poor Knork is only level 10 though.


Obviously, that's before magic items and buffs (other than frenzy).

Gametime
2010-06-21, 11:44 AM
The suggestion that healers might get additional spells providing protections does nothing for them by RAW. There is no spell that is not on the healer list that you can point to and say "Healers get this". Exception below.

What makes healers less pathetic than Truenamers is BoED. They can clearly use Sanctified spells, many of which don't suck. Then they can immediately heal the resulting stat damage.

That's debatable. The section on expanding non-core class spell lists is described as "advice," but (for the healer, at least) it is unequivocally commanding. It lacks the caution added to the other class's advice sections and just straight up tells you what sort of spells to add. By RAW, the Healer has to get more spells from the Spell Compendium, although you're right that which ones it gets are subject to debate.

I think the point was that having printed material that might be accessible is better than having nothing in any book to help you, which is all the Truenamer gets. (Well, except Item Familiars and the Paragnostic Assembly.)

Aharon
2010-06-21, 11:49 AM
Nitpick:
Truenamers also get support from the Dragon Magazine. :smallbiggrin:
In one of the last issues to be made, there's a section that gives Truenamers some recitations that might be more useful than the normal ones. They require the personal truename of the target, though - you have to pay money to use your feat to help your companions :smallyuk:

sonofzeal
2010-06-21, 12:00 PM
This one needs a lot of work, imo. Is Gray Guard really a +1? Zerth Cenobite might be, but only for monks, definitely not for Archivists. I don't see Exalted Arcanist as a -1 either - it provides comparable benefits to Sandshaper for less investment and that is a +1.
Grey Guard is an improvement over the logical entry (Paladin), and is hence +1. The advantage is primarily in the oath, which is the major weakness for traditional Paladins. It could be shifted down to +0, but the new flexibility is enough to make it worth strongly considering.

Zerth Cenobite is an improvement over the logical entry (Monk with a bit of Psi, possibly from feats or race), and is hence +1. Archivists can qualify, but it's obviously not who the class was intended for and I wouldn't call that a "logical" entry.

Exalted Arcanist does not provide the same bonus as Sand Shaper. Sand Shaper actually gives you Spells Known, Exalted Arcanist merely adds them to your class spell list. The difference may seem subtle, but it completely destroys the entire point for a Sorcerer.



On the whole, the PrC Tier list is never final. At this point there's usually reasons for where things are, but many PrCs are unusual and can be shifted up or down accordingly. Void Disciple for example is one that depends heavily on how you interpret its abilities, and thus is often the topic of debate.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 01:24 PM
Grey Guard is an improvement over the logical entry (Paladin), and is hence +1.

No, it really isn't. You give up 5 caster levels for fluff. (And yes, Paladin spells are actually worth it, if you have Spell Compendium.) That puts you at CL 5 at 20.

If you're playing with a DM that is set on making you fall, no amount of Gray Guard will matter anyway.


Zerth Cenobite is an improvement over the logical entry (Monk with a bit of Psi, possibly from feats or race), and is hence +1.

The "logical entry" is not always obvious to an inexperienced player, and tier systems are aimed at such players. Therefore, it is defeating its own purpose.

More to the point, Psionic Fist is also a +1 PrC on that list. Just going by that ranking, a new player would have no idea that Psionic Fist beats up Zerth Cenobite and takes his lunch money, because the Tier System considers them equals.


Exalted Arcanist does not provide the same bonus as Sand Shaper. Sand Shaper actually gives you Spells Known, Exalted Arcanist merely adds them to your class spell list. The difference may seem subtle, but it completely destroys the entire point for a Sorcerer.

I like Sandshaper too, but you're not correct. Not only does EA give you two free bonus spells known when you enter, every Exalted spell ever is added to your spells known as an EA. Also, it removes the cost of two very useful metamagic feats for a good party.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-21, 01:38 PM
Worst Prestige class? I changed my mind, I nominate the Survivor out of Savage Species.

Frosty
2010-06-21, 01:46 PM
Maybe I should change it to "Male wizards and sorcerers wear dresses, female wizards and sorcerers wear pants"? No, better not, someone would try to contradict that statement as well.
Actually, sorceresses dress in lingerie-robes by the consensus of most fantasy art :smallbiggrin:

Example: http://mysticalrenderings.com/wp-content/gallery/fantasy-art-miscellaneous/themagichour.jpg

Greenish
2010-06-21, 01:51 PM
Actually, sorceresses dress in lingerie-robes by the consensus of most fantasy art :smallbiggrin:I don't see your picture and raise you an eberron caster: http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm230/Optimiron/motivator7876e2ed518acb9987a0b7135f.jpg

Frosty
2010-06-21, 01:58 PM
I'm sorry, but Harry Dresden called. He wants his coat back.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 02:07 PM
I'm sorry, but Harry Dresden called. He wants his coat back.He can have it. We still have pants: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Stuff/Pants.jpg

sonofzeal
2010-06-21, 02:16 PM
No, it really isn't. You give up 5 caster levels for fluff. (And yes, Paladin spells are actually worth it, if you have Spell Compendium.) That puts you at CL 5 at 20.

If you're playing with a DM that is set on making you fall, no amount of Gray Guard will matter anyway.
A fair argument. You can post in the thread and see if they'll lower it. Nothing is ever final, and things do occasionally change around. Personally though, I think the ability to cooperate with evil characters and occasionally lie is a big enough boost to deserve recognition, but that's just me. I do recognize that the Paladin spellcasting is a nice thing.


The "logical entry" is not always obvious to an inexperienced player, and tier systems are aimed at such players. Therefore, it is defeating its own purpose.

More to the point, Psionic Fist is also a +1 PrC on that list. Just going by that ranking, a new player would have no idea that Psionic Fist beats up Zerth Cenobite and takes his lunch money, because the Tier System considers them equals.
Please don't tell me who my tier system is aimed at. The base class list is aimed at newbies, because there's few enough base classes that any pro probably has a good idea what's good and what's bad already. I don't need his list to tell me Warblades are better than Fighters, or that Wizards are better than Sorcerers.

However, the number of PrCs out there is ridiculous, and most come up far less often, so even a pro might not really know anything about the effectiveness of Scorpion Heritor, or Scarlet Corsair, or Sentinel of Bharrai, or Solar Channeler. I've found myself using it often when a friend mentions some PrC they plan on taking, or I want a vigilante bounty hunter but don't know whether to look into Bloodhounds or Justicars or Vigilantes. It obviously won't give a total answer either way, but I can see there that Bloodhound is probably the most promising overall and deserves special attention, and that I shouldn't be suckered in by Vigilante merely because it gives some spells. In short, it helps make more informed decisions on the fly without having to read through everything the class offers and figure out the implications of it all. It also lets me recommend my friends away from stuff that'll nerf their weaker characters too badly, or that'll break the campaign on their stronger characters.

And yes, there are granularity issues. Any time you organize things into categories like this, there's going to be things on the lower and upper ends of the categories. In JaronK's base class system, there can be a substantial difference between things that share the same tier. That's something you just have to live with.

Also, if you can look at Zerth Cenobite and not immediately realize it's a Monk PrC, there's something seriously wrong going on.


I like Sandshaper too, but you're not correct. Not only does EA give you two free bonus spells known when you enter, every Exalted spell ever is added to your spells known as an EA. Also, it removes the cost of two very useful metamagic feats for a good party.
See, I've got the book open right in front of me, and I'm not seeing that at all. Actually, it pretty much outright says the opposite: "Exalted Arcanists choose their spells from the following lists or from their normal spell lists". Unless it's Sanctified Spells you're referring to, but pretty much everyone besides Sorcs already got all those for free anyway, and I've honestly never been too impressed. It's nice, but you gain far less spells, and far worse spells, than Sand Shaper gives you. It's also harder to get into.

Also, it doesn't remove the cost of the metamagic. It removes the casting time increase, but the spell level increase is not mentioned.

On the whole though, you might be able to justify an "Even" ranking. Again, post in the threads and see what people say.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 02:40 PM
A fair argument. You can post in the thread and see if they'll lower it. Nothing is ever final, and things do occasionally change around. Personally though, I think the ability to cooperate with evil characters and occasionally lie is a big enough boost to deserve recognition, but that's just me. I do recognize that the Paladin spellcasting is a nice thing.

Actually, you can already "occasionally lie" as a base paladin - so long as you don't make a habit of it.
You have a fair point with cooperating with evil characters, but that seems a nebulous advantage for such a hefty cost.


However, the number of PrCs out there is ridiculous, and most come up far less often, so even a pro might not really know anything about the effectiveness of Scorpion Heritor, or Scarlet Corsair, or Sentinel of Bharrai, or Solar Channeler. I've found myself using it often when a friend mentions some PrC they plan on taking, or I want a vigilante bounty hunter but don't know whether to look into Bloodhounds or Justicars or Vigilantes. It obviously won't give a total answer either way, but I can see there that Bloodhound is probably the most promising overall and deserves special attention, and that I shouldn't be suckered in by Vigilante merely because it gives some spells. In short, it helps make more informed decisions on the fly without having to read through everything the class offers and figure out the implications of it all. It also lets me recommend my friends away from stuff that'll nerf their weaker characters too badly, or that'll break the campaign on their stronger characters.

Perhaps I came across poorly - I didn't mean to imply that the whole system should be scrapped. Believe me, I am all for a Tier System for PrCs as a tool for simplifying the PrC choice process. But from theos' post, you can see how some of the rankings might be confusing. I was merely informing him that, rather than enter your thread and wrangle about which ones were misclassified and what they should be, that the rankings as a whole required a critical eye and a grain of salt, and should not be taken as gospel.


See, I've got the book open right in front of me, and I'm not seeing that at all. Actually, it pretty much outright says the opposite: "Exalted Arcanists choose their spells from the following lists or from their normal spell lists". Unless it's Sanctified Spells you're referring to, but pretty much everyone besides Sorcs already got all those for free anyway, and I've honestly never been too impressed. It's nice, but you gain far less spells, and far worse spells, than Sand Shaper gives you. It's also harder to get into.

The fact that Sorcs don't get them - period - is exactly why EA is a nice choice.

Are they the best spells around? No, but neither are the Sandshaper's spells. And I'm sure that among the 30 Sanctified Spells the class gives you, you can find something useful.

The list expansion should also not be discounted. For instance, EA is an easy way for a sorcerer to enter Thaumaturgist and be a summoner.

I don't think EA is harder to enter, either. EA requires one cross-class skill to Sand Shaper's two, and while it requires two feats instead of one, at least they aren't dead feats. On the contrary, EA's feats are excellent choices even if you don't want the PrC. Turn half of *all* my damage untyped, and do zero damage to my good-aligned allies + extra damage to evil? Yes please.


Also, it doesn't remove the cost of the metamagic. It removes the casting time increase, but the spell level increase is not mentioned.

Even so, they're both +1 metamagics - it's hardly going to break the bank even at the level you acquire them.


On the whole though, you might be able to justify an "Even" ranking. Again, post in the threads and see what people say.

I don't post on BG much (the time I do find to post is usually here) but again, my goal was more to advise theos that Tier systems are inherently flawed (due to the granularity issue you mentioned) than any attempt to bash your system. I do love what it represents - an attempt to simplify character creation - and when I find the time, I'll gladly help with the implementation.

hamishspence
2010-06-21, 02:42 PM
You have a fair point with cooperating with evil characters, but that seems a nebulous advantage for such a hefty cost.

There's some splatbook precedent for a standard paladin cooperating with evil characters as well- on a short term basis against a greater threat- Defenders of the Faith, and BoED, both suggest it's permissible.

Coidzor
2010-06-21, 03:02 PM
Actually, sorceresses dress in lingerie-robes by the consensus of most fantasy art :smallbiggrin:

Example: http://mysticalrenderings.com/wp-content/gallery/fantasy-art-miscellaneous/themagichour.jpg

I think that might just be Sune. Diaphonous gown, redhead, superficially beautiful and not much else going on... checkaroonie.

Gametime
2010-06-21, 04:42 PM
He can have it. We still have pants: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Stuff/Pants.jpg

I think the fluffy pirate shirt is way cooler than the fairly unremarkable pants.

Frosty
2010-06-21, 05:00 PM
I think that might just be Sune. Diaphonous gown, redhead, superficially beautiful and not much else going on... checkaroonie.
I don't know much about Sune except that she sponsors a paladin order.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 05:03 PM
I think the fluffy pirate shirt is way cooler than the fairly unremarkable pants.Indeed, but the point is that he isn't dressed in a gown.