Redesigning the Tarrasque

[TheOverlord]

After playing around with advancing the Tarrasque the other day and looking around at other threads that talked about its failings as a unique and terrifying creature I realized that the Tarrasque had simply not kept up with the evolution of D&D 3.5. Even against a party of moderately optimized characters I am not sure that the Tarrasque would be the fearsome foe it was meant to be.

The Tarrasque is meant to inspire fear and awe and be a unique and amazing challenge for any party. I thought it would be nice to discuss its redesign. I am not just talking about creating a TPK machine but rather a beast that is truly worthy of legend...interesting and unique abilities while still being a killing machine. I am not too worried about the base stats and such (although if something really bugs you about those feel free to speak out) but rather lets focus on special abilities and probably talk through a rework of its feats.

I would look at Pathfinder's version of the Tarrasque(CR25) rather than the 3.5(CR20) one for a good starting point. They do a much better job with feats although I wish it still had some more unique special abilities.

Perhaps when all is said and done I can put together all the good ideas and publish it in the Monster Advancer.

[Draz74]

I would look at Pathfinder's version of the Tarrasque(CR25) rather than the 3.5(CR20) one for a good starting point. They do a much better job with feats although I wish it still had some more unique special abilities.

Then it's extra sad how Eldariel proved he can beat the Pathfinder Tarrasque with a variety of Level 20 Fighters in one-on-one combat :smalltongue:

[the humanity]

infinite hit points, and immune to death effects. make a bizarre combination of attacks and spells stun it for a thousand years.

ex.
spell/spellike that deals damage
full attack
area effect spell/spellike
single sneak attack/sudden strike
any attack/spell/spellike

then give it a stunning blow type ability.

[Mushroom Ninja]

There was a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000) on Re-feating Big T a couple of years ago which might be of use.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... I suppose the first step, really, would be to de-feat the Terrasque...

Edit: and maybe pull his skill points, too...
De-Feated Tarrasque

Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 48d10+576 (840 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 35 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +30 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+81
Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3)
Full Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3) and 2 horns +52 melee (1d10+8) and 2 claws +52 melee (1d12+8) and tail slap +52 melee (3d8+8)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +18
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Listen +10, Search -4, Spot +10, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks): 51 available skill points
Feats: 7 regular, 10 Epic
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 49+ HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons.

The tarrasque cannot speak.
Combat

The tarrasque attacks with its claws, teeth, horns, and tail.

The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Augmented Critical (Ex)

The tarrasque’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.
Frightful Presence (Su)

The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, the tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.
Rush (Ex)

Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet.
Swallow Whole (Ex)

The tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque’s digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The tarrasque’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.
Carapace (Ex)

The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.
Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 850 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 850 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
Skills

The tarrasque has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Let's see... 48 hit dice = 7 regular feats, 10 Epic feats.
Swapping Skills around also makes sense (for pre-requisites, if nothing else).

The next step, I suppose, would be to list Mr. T's big weaknesses:

Slow speed
Lack of a fly speed
Lack of ranged attacks
Inability to teleport
Poor Will save
Ability Drain
Incorporeal Opponents
Illusions
Invisibility

Am I missing anything of note?

The next would be to address them, one at a time, with his 17 available feats, and with re-allocating his skill points....

[Eldariel]

The next step, I suppose, would be to list Mr. T's big weaknesses:

Slow speed
Lack of a fly speed
Lack of ranged attacks
Inability to teleport
Poor Will save
Ability Drain
Incorporeal Opponents
Illusions
Invisibility

Am I missing anything of note?

Planeshifting. If you cast Plane Shift on it, it'll be exploding in Positive Energy Plane. In general, any sort of Save Spam means it'll eventually roll a 1. So that's definitely one. Also, drowning (raise water high enough and it'll just drown away). And like, people with Hide +37 (or higher), Darkstalker and HiPS.

And the fact that it can't touch Force-effects; it's fully possible to just cage somewhere (not with Forcecage but liberal application of Walls of Force) if you don't feel like killing it on the spot. Obviously it can't really deal with Ethereals. And...well, it's touch AC is "rather poor" put mildly. So is its real AC, for that matter.

[Stevielash]

I think the best way to cover its lack of fly ability is to steal 4th editions earthbinding aura ability which brings flyers within its attack reach. Tail spines are usualy suggested for a ranged attack for big T but some kind of breath weapon would also fit.

[Eldariel]

I think the best way to cover its lack of fly ability is to steal 4th editions earthbinding aura ability which brings flyers within its attack reach. Tail spines are usualy suggested for a ranged attack for big T but some kind of breath weapon would also fit.

Breath Weapon would make it too...Draconic, IMHO. Spines would give it a much more awesome (http://terry.kovax.org/250px-Lavos_shell.jpg).

[Stevielash]

Breath Weapon would make it too...Draconic, IMHO. Spines would give it a much more awesome (http://terry.kovax.org/250px-Lavos_shell.jpg).

I do prefer spines myself but to be honest but breaths another option, its not like you have to be a dragon to have a breath weapon, or do you? :S, are their breath weapons owned by non dragons anyway in core?.

[Draz74]

Big T flying is powerful, but wrecks the flavor for me. As does a breath weapon. I think the best anti-flying tactic to give him is awesome ranged attacks, whether it's spines or (even better IMO) hurled boulders.

[For Valor]

heh... Mr.T... put him on the A-Team and I'm sure he'll do fine.

In other news:

•Slow speed
•Lack of a fly speed
•Lack of ranged attacks
•Inability to teleport
•Poor Will save
•Ability Drain
•Incorporeal Opponents
•Illusions
•Invisibility

Classically, you could just give him a ****-ton of immunities, and then some gravitational and earth-related powers (teleporters teleport to him regardless of where they're going, flyers are grounded, walking away from him counts as difficult terrain). Then give him the ability to fire some of his spines at opponents (and they can grow back immediately, because he's awesome). Bump his Will save to good too, and he should have a couple moves like "Spell failure on everything within 1 mile", which gives every spell a 30% chance to fail (as though by ASF--but for everybody. Powers and Invocations included, but not Soulmeds or Maneuvers).

Then give him a passive burst of energy every once in a while, the ability to make full attacks as a standard action, and a higher land speed (he's a freaking giant monster for Ao's sake. I'm sure he can move 100 ft in a round or something).

If you want to go down the gravity-based path, he could maybe hit the ground and deal force/non-typed damage to everybody except himself in some AoE range (I like a 1 mile radius... it's just a cool idea.)

[Eldariel]

I do prefer spines myself but to be honest but breaths another option, its not like you have to be a dragon to have a breath weapon, or do you? :S, are their breath weapons owned by non dragons anyway in core?.

Pyro/Cryohydras have Breath Weapons. But they still have a very distinctly Draconic feel which is why I try to steer clear of them when dealing with non-Dragons.


Big T flying is powerful, but wrecks the flavor for me. As does a breath weapon. I think the best anti-flying tactic to give him is awesome ranged attacks, whether it's spines or (even better IMO) hurled boulders.

The 4e version isn't that bad really; an aura that pulls flying creatures down or simply just some "reinforced gravity"-area could work. It's an unique being from the beginning of time, after all - it can kinda return things to basics, screwing with magic and all that with its mere presence.

[Draz74]

The 4e version isn't that bad really; an aura that pulls flying creatures down or simply just some "reinforced gravity"-area could work. It's an unique being from the beginning of time, after all - it can kinda return things to basics, screwing with magic and all that with its mere presence.

Feels terribly meta-gamey to me. "Oh yeah, we're just going to make up a new ability for him that just happens to cover his biggest weakness, and makes little physical sense ..."

[Eldariel]

Feels terribly meta-gamey to me. "Oh yeah, we're just going to make up a new ability for him that just happens to cover his biggest weakness, and makes little physical sense ..."

When a being is strong enough, its presence enforcing the rules it lives under actually does feel somewhat sensible to me; especially when talking about a building block of the universe, so to speak (which is what I like to view Big T as).

[Ernir]

Feels terribly meta-gamey to me. "Oh yeah, we're just going to make up a new ability for him that just happens to cover his biggest weakness, and makes little physical sense ..."

It wouldn't be the first such immunity it gets. Its immunity to dying barring the intervention of deities or reality revisions would qualify as one, I think. :smalltongue:

[JGoldenberg]

Pyro/Cryohydras have Breath Weapons. But they still have a very distinctly Draconic feel which is why I try to steer clear of them when dealing with non-Dragons.


Looking through my Pathfinder Bestiary I can list the following non-draconic with breath weapons:

Ankheg (It's a spit but the crunch is basically acid breath.)
Gorgon
Mephits

While a small number The Draconic influenced monsters with breath Weapons are:
Linnorms
Dragons
Chimeras
Cyro/Pyrohydras


So out of the 7 groups of monsters with breath weapons, 3/7 are decidedly not draconic in heritage or even appearance.

So praytell, how is Breath Weapons poor flavour with Tarrasques?
Not that I'm wanting Terry the Tarrasque to have breath weapons, but it seems silly to say they're too draconic when almost half the monsters in the bestiary with it aren't draconic.

[Kaiyanwang]

You missed Behir.

Barring this, I see Tarrasque as a fantasy Godzilla*.. so a breath weapon does match! Moreover, you can have bot breath weapon and the no-fly zone. Die players, die!


*without DMM intervention

[TheOverlord]

Pathfinder Tarrasque.Tarrasque
CR 25 XP 1,638,400
N Colossal magical beast
Init +7; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +43
Aura frightful presence (300 ft., DC 27)
DEFENSE
AC 40, touch 5, flat-footed 37 (+3 Dex, +35 natural, –8 size)
hp 525 (30d10+360); regeneration 40
Fort +31, Ref +22, Will +12
DR 15/epic; Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph; SR 36
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +37 (4d8+15/15–20/×3 plus grab), 2 claws +37 (1d12+15), 2 gores +37 (1d10+15), tail slap +32 (3d8+7) Ranged 6 spines +25 (2d10+15/×3)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 30 ft. (60 ft. with tail slap)
Special Attacks rush, spines, swallow whole (6d6+22 plus 6d6 acid, AC 27, hp 52)
STATISTICS
Str 41, Dex 16, Con 34, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 14
Base Atk +30; CMB +53 (+57 grapple); CMD 66
Feats Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Bleeding Critical, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Critical
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+43 when jumping), Perception +43; Racial Modifiers +8 Perception
Languages Aklo (cannot speak)
SQ carapace, powerful leaper
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Carapace (Su)

The tarrasque's scales deflect cones, lines, rays, and magic missile spells, rendering the tarrasque immune to such effects. There is a 30% chance a deflected effect reflects back in full force at the caster; otherwise it is simply negated.
Powerful Leaper (Ex)

The tarrasque uses its Strength to modify Acrobatics checks made to jump, and has a +24 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.
Rush (Ex)

Once per minute for 1 round, the tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet. This increases its Acrobatics bonus on checks made to jump to +87.
Spines (Ex)

The tarrasque can loose a volley of six spear-like spines from its body as a standard action with a toss of its head or a lash of its tail. Make an attack roll for each spine—all targets must be within 30 feet of each other. The spines have a range increment of 120 ft.

The PF Tarrasque doesn't really make use of Epic feats like some suggested which is a reasonable idea. For game use it almost makes sense to have 2 versions...one that uses Epic and one that doesn't as far as feats go. PF did a reasonable job picking non-epic feats that work and also added Spines to provide some decent ranged attacks.


Big T flying is powerful, but wrecks the flavor for me. As does a breath weapon. I think the best anti-flying tactic to give him is awesome ranged attacks, whether it's spines or (even better IMO) hurled boulders.

I agree on flavor issues and flavor with Big T is key. It could make sense to focus on feats/abilities that provide a sort of super-heightened natural predatory senses. To me this could equate to a couple abilities that stem from its stature as the universe's greatest predator and very basic natural senses. (Some could behave similar to luck feats) These can all be mixed with a bit of flavor to fit with a the greatest natural predator of all time and you would have something closer to what the Tarrasque needs.

Perfection of Senses(Ex): Due to the Tarrasque's extraordinary senses it can quickly lash out to stop fleeing prey. 3/day as an immediate action the Tarrasque can make a single attack against any creature attempting to withdraw, or escape by way of teleportation magic that is in its threatened range. If the teleportation or escape is triggered by another creature the Tarrasque cannot detect it. The only way to prevent the Tarrasque's use of this ability is to deprive it of its ability to see, hear and smell.

Predatory Luck(Ex): The Tarrasque has ties to the very essence of nature which allows it avoid failure in critical situations. 2/day as an immediate action when the Tarrasque rolls a natural 1, it may re-roll and take that result instead.

Natural Selection(Ex): Some would say that the universe conspires against them. For the Tarrasque the opposite is true, as if the universe itself favors the Tarrasque. 1/day as an immediate action if the Tarrasque rolls a natural 1 it may instead treat the roll as a natural 20.

[lsfreak]

Perfection of Senses(Ex): Due to the Tarrasque's extraordinary senses it can quickly lash out to stop fleeing prey. 3/day as an immediate action the Tarrasque can make a single attack against any creature attempting to withdraw, or escape by way of teleportation magic that is in its threatened range. If the teleportation or escape is triggered by another creature the Tarrasque cannot detect it. The only way to prevent the Tarrasque's use of this ability is to deprive it of its ability to see, hear and smell.
The Mage Slayer feat does this, pretty much. Withdraw only prevents your first square from provoking, so unless someone is on the very edge of T's threatened area, he gets the AoO anywho.


Predatory Luck(Ex): The Tarrasque has ties to the very essence of nature which allows it avoid failure in critical situations. 2/day as an immediate action when the Tarrasque rolls a natural 1, it may re-roll and take that result instead.
Maybe just make it so that natural 1's for T are never auto-failures? They may fail, but not automatically. And one/round as an immediate action, may treat his next d20 roll as a 10.

[TheOverlord]

The Mage Slayer feat does this, pretty much. Withdraw only prevents your first square from provoking, so unless someone is on the very edge of T's threatened area, he gets the AoO anywho.


Maybe just make it so that natural 1's for T are never auto-failures? They may fail, but not automatically. And one/round as an immediate action, may treat his next d20 roll as a 10.

Good call on the Mage Slayer feat that wouldn't be a bad one to have. As far as the no-auto failure I don't mind that...it could definitely work. My examples are just reworked luck feats with very similar mechanics.

My other thought I forgot to mention was some sort of ability for a temporary or reactionary scintillating scales type effect to help with the low touch AC once in a while. However, after consideration I am not sure it matters. In general, carapace covers most of that as all ray spells already automatically fail...so a caster is going to have to be deep in melee range to get anything useful off already.

[Nero24200]

Just plain remove it, or design it for a lower CR. Non-magical, unintellegent creatures can't stand against a high level party. Even with the DM fiat aspect of the PF tarrasque, a party can still beat it easily.

Make it a creature for fighting parties of around 11th level and tone it back a little. At least they'll be more of a threat to parties of those levels. Theres a reason every other high-CR creature has things like flight and spell-like abilities.

[Eldariel]

So praytell, how is Breath Weapons poor flavour with Tarrasques?
Not that I'm wanting Terry the Tarrasque to have breath weapons, but it seems silly to say they're too draconic when almost half the monsters in the bestiary with it aren't draconic.

Eh, there's about a 100 True Dragons in the MM; those form the majority of creatures with a Breath Weapon, y'know :smallconfused: Besides, what creatures in fairy tales breath fire besides Dragons and maybe Hellhounds?

It's an ability that's iconic for Dragons and as such, giving it to an epically tough non-Dragon would reduce its uniqueness and iconic status.

Of course Godzilla's Mouth Lazer Beams work but I for above reasons, I'd personally steer clear of that.


Good call on the Mage Slayer feat that wouldn't be a bad one to have. As far as the no-auto failure I don't mind that...it could definitely work. My examples are just reworked luck feats with very similar mechanics.

Pride-domain's granted power can be given to it via Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment. Though that of course makes no sense, but it can be done anyways. And maybe it's ancient and omnipresent enough to have been there and absorbed the knowledge. Or...refluff.

[Prime32]

Eh, there's about a 100 True Dragons in the MM; those form the majority of creatures with a Breath Weapon, y'know :smallconfused: Besides, what creatures in fairy tales breath fire besides Dragons and maybe Hellhounds?Some fairies.


Slow speedIf you pick up a fly speed, Air Heritage will increase it by 30ft.

Lack of a fly speed

Lack of ranged attacks
blood wind?

Inability to teleport
The only feat I know of which grants this is from the Tome of Fiends (which also has a feat to grant wings, btw).

Poor Will save
Steadfast Determination boosts its Will save and stops it from auto-failing Fort saves on a natural 1.

The Otherworldly feat changes its type to Outsider, which reduces its HD to a d8 but gives it good Will saves and 8+Int skill points per level.

Ability Drain
Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest)

Incorporeal OpponentsThere's a soulmeld (crystal helm?) which grants your attacks the Force subtype when bound to the right chakra.

Illusions

Invisibility
I think there are soulmelds which help with these two. Or you could take a soulmeld which grants telepathy, then take Mindsight.

[Morph Bark]

The next step, I suppose, would be to list Mr. T's big weaknesses:

Slow speed
Lack of a fly speed
Lack of ranged attacks
Inability to teleport
Poor Will save
Ability Drain
Incorporeal Opponents
Illusions
Invisibility

Am I missing anything of note?

The next would be to address them, one at a time, with his 17 available feats, and with re-allocating his skill points....

Slow speed needs definite upping to at least 70 ft, a beast like that should move at least his own height twice.

Lack of flight speed would be compensated for that earthbinding thing that 4E has on him too. That would fit Big T better than granting it flight anyway.

Poor Will? ...wait. Why would Big T have a Magical Beast type anyway? Big T should be of a type no other creature has, with all the strengths of the other types (but not subtypes) and none of their weaknesses. This would also cover Energy Drain and stuff.

Incorporeal opponents: make all his natural attacks pierce DR/epic and thus DR/magic, but have this be a non-magical quality.

For illusions and invisibility, grant him True Seeing, except as an Ex quality. Big T can see into the infrared and ultraviolet spectrums and beyond. He can see the words you speak and hear you standing perfectly still in front of him without making any sound. +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot. Tremorsense and Blindsense up to a certain distance.

Big T should be the Collosal variant of an incredibly boosted Velociraptor that succeeded in screwing Tiamat into submission, making her give birth to a one-headed child that was then thrown into a wormhole to a dying universe where it was remade into something completely different.

Making those spikes on his back useful for something would be grand too. And maybe make his bite poisonous or give a disease from all the rotting food stuck in there. Perhaps multiple poisons and diseases. And maybe when you wound it, it turns out its blood is made of liquid fire and acid that tries to eat your face and the rest of your body.

[Glimbur]

You can also get short-range teleports via Incarnum and a fly speed. It'll cost a lot of feats and make big T look pretty blue and glowy, but you can cover for many of his weaknesses with enough incarnum feats. Two feats = true seeing via truthseeker goggles bound to soul; two feats is pegasus cloak bound to shoulders for flight, a feat for the blink shirt is short-range teleporting, frost helm bound to crown can give cold lasers (range is pretty poor iirc though), enigma helm on head with essentia helps the will save a touch (needs double chakra), double chakra to bind strongheart vest to heart to deal with ability drain.... that's 13 feats, three or four of which are epic.

[Kobold-Bard]

I give it a Hyper Beam (Pokemon-esque) type breath weapon. Thou spines are badass too.

Though I also have the guy in the spoiler punch it's way out of it's back once you defeat the first one:
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt310/Kobold-Bard/BigSpikyBastard.jpg?t=1277076339
:smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

Planeshifting. If you cast Plane Shift on it, it'll be exploding in Positive Energy Plane. In general, any sort of Save Spam means it'll eventually roll a 1.
Okay - so we need to a way to deal with a Wizard who's standing at fairly close range for ten or twenty rounds. AKA, give the beast enough of an offense that it's not a viable option for the wizard to spam spells (and, of course, raise it's saves a bit). Pierce Magical Concealment + Mage Slayer + Steadfast Determination? With requirements (Blind-Fight, Endurance), that's five non-epic feats needed... although the Spellcraft requirement will either reduce the amount of Spot Mr. T can have, or require a feat spent on Open-Minded or some such.

So that's definitely one. Also, drowning (raise water high enough and it'll just drown away).
Teleportation and Flight will both usually resolve those. Plus, you know, with it's Constitution score of 35, and it's Strength score of 45, Mr. T has an untrained Swim check of +16 (never going under, as it can't fail the highest swim DC ("Stormy Water", 20) by more than 3... and you have to fail by 5 to go under), and it can hold it's breath for 70 rounds (if it's not doing anything strenuous - 35 rounds if it is), drowning isn't really much of a problem.

And like, people with Hide +37 (or higher), Darkstalker and HiPS.
Okay, so we need to re-allocate skill points to Spot. It's got 51 ranks to burn (and Spot is about the most important skill it can have) a +8 racial bonus to Spot, and 14 Wisdom. Is a Spot modifier of +61 sufficient, or do we need to blow a feat on Epic Skill Focus (Spot) (which would it another +10, and thus a better than 50% chance to "Pierce Illusion" DC 80?)


And the fact that it can't touch Force-effects; it's fully possible to just cage somewhere (not with Forcecage but liberal application of Walls of Force) if you don't feel like killing it on the spot.
Solving the lack of Teleportation solves this as well.

Obviously it can't really deal with Ethereals.
Ahh... it's a very rare Ethereal critter that can harm a material critter. Are you thinking Incorporeals, that I mentioned, and you quoted me mentioning?

And...well, it's touch AC is "rather poor" put mildly. So is its real AC, for that matter.
Eh, that's not so much of a big deal. Many ranged effects simply bounce back, and well, it does need to be defeatable.

... so re-allocate all base skill points into Spot, and pick some feats:

1: Blindfight
3: Open Minded (for a few extra skill ranks to dump into Spellcraft)
6: Endurance
9: Steadfast Determination
12: Mage Slayer
15: Pierce Magical Concealment
18: Shape Soulmeld (Frost Helm)
21: Shape Soulmeld (Apparition Ribbon)
24: Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt)
27: Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment (Pride))
30: Open X Chakra (Heart)
33: Open X Chakra (Throat)
36: Open X Chakra (Crown)
39: Shape Soulmeld (Pegasus Cloak)
42: Open X Chakra (Sholders)
45: CERULEAN FORTITUDE
48: CERULEAN REFLEXES

It probably needs work... but how is that as a start?

[Eldariel]

Okay - so we need to a way to deal with a Wizard who's standing at fairly close range for ten or twenty rounds. AKA, give the beast enough of an offense that it's not a viable option for the wizard to spam spells (and, of course, raise it's saves a bit). Pierce Magical Concealment + Mage Slayer + Steadfast Determination? With requirements (Blind-Fight, Endurance), that's five non-epic feats needed... although the Spellcraft requirement will either reduce the amount of Spot Mr. T can have, or require a feat spent on Open-Minded or some such.

Instead of Teleportation, you could just enable it to...rip holes in the planes with its existence; in other words, give it some Plane Shift-like ability. There are ways to coy it to planes that kill it (like Elemental Plane of Water or Positive Energy Plane) so it should be able to get out of there...and it'll be much more of a universal terror if it can go everywhere.

Well, the ranges are rather long; it needs means past obvious Wizard-defenses like Force-effects, Invisibility and such. More than that though, I don't think it should die (or become very easy to kill) to a simple Finger of Death; too anti-climatic.


Teleportation and Flight will both usually resolve those. Plus, you know, with it's Constitution score of 35, and it's Strength score of 45, Mr. T has an untrained Swim check of +16 (never going under, as it can't fail the highest swim DC ("Stormy Water", 20) by more than 3... and you have to fail by 5 to go under), and it can hold it's breath for 70 rounds (if it's not doing anything strenuous - 35 rounds if it is), drowning isn't really much of a problem.

When you're immersed in water, that doesn't matter much. That's what I'm talking about; it's not undoable to generate enough water that it's just under it from the start, or just Gating the Elemental Plane of Water and immersing it in a place with nothing but water.


Okay, so we need to re-allocate skill points to Spot. It's got 51 ranks to burn (and Spot is about the most important skill it can have) a +8 racial bonus to Spot, and 14 Wisdom. Is a Spot modifier of +61 sufficient, or do we need to blow a feat on Epic Skill Focus (Spot) (which would it another +10, and thus a better than 50% chance to "Pierce Illusion" DC 80?)

Something like that. Keeneye Lenses soulmeld helps.


Ahh... it's a very rare Ethereal critter that can harm a material critter. Are you thinking Incorporeals, that I mentioned, and you quoted me mentioning?

No, there are few Ethereals; Ghosts are most apparent though they need to manifest. Breach Obelisk enables some shenanigans and so on. It's not out of question to simply give it Force attacks and True Seeing-like sight so it can see through dimensions (naturally) and attack Ethereals.


Eh, that's not so much of a big deal. Many ranged effects simply bounce back, and well, it does need to be defeatable.

Not so easily though. I like the idea of a momentary deflection capability here.


1: Blindfight
3: Open Minded (for a few extra skill ranks to dump into Spellcraft)
6: Endurance
9: Steadfast Determination
12: Mage Slayer
15: Pierce Magical Concealment
18: Shape Soulmeld (Frost Helm)
21: Shape Soulmeld (Apparition Ribbon)
24: Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt)
27: Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment (Pride))
30: Open X Chakra (Heart)
33: Open X Chakra (Throat)
36: Open X Chakra (Crown)
39: Shape Soulmeld (Pegasus Cloak)
42: Open X Chakra (Sholders)
45: CERULEAN FORTITUDE
48: CERULEAN REFLEXES

It probably needs work... but how is that as a start?

Needs Power Attack to be a credible melee threat. Also, I like just maxing Spot so it doesn't need Open-Minded > Mage Slayer > all that. Spellcasting Harrier should be better anyways. Dire Charge is interesting. That's a start but it needs more.

[Seffbasilisk]

I think a crucial part in redesigning the Tarrasque is simply stating what he SHOULD be.


I see the Big T, as something that awakens, in the natural turn of the world, to from time to time, roam the planet like some bio-bulldozer. Basically unstoppable, he doesn't move too quickly, fly, or teleport at all. He's bound to this plane, and cannot be Shifted away from it. Unchecked, he'll raze all buildings, level forests, reshape the terrain, and basically set most civilizations back to the start. Intelligent or swift creatures survive by simply avoiding him. Fliers have the easiest time of that.

Basically, he's the comet that killed the dinosaurs. Gives new creatures a chance to flourish, and the efficient old ones can linger on. Dragons and the like can simply gather up their hoards and planeshift away for a bit, or take to the air.

[Khellendross]

Slapping the Paragon*epic* template on it would make it pretty tough.

[tyckspoon]

I see the Big T, as something that awakens, in the natural turn of the world, to from time to time, roam the planet like some bio-bulldozer. Basically unstoppable, he doesn't move too quickly, fly, or teleport at all. He's bound to this plane, and cannot be Shifted away from it. Unchecked, he'll raze all buildings, level forests, reshape the terrain, and basically set most civilizations back to the start. Intelligent or swift creatures survive by simply avoiding him. Fliers have the easiest time of that.

Basically, he's the comet that killed the dinosaurs. Gives new creatures a chance to flourish, and the efficient old ones can linger on. Dragons and the like can simply gather up their hoards and planeshift away for a bit, or take to the air.

Of course, at that kind of activity it's relatively trivial for an intelligent caster to detain, distract, or point him at a different target.. but then I suppose any civilization that spawns level 10+ casters capable of doing that can be considered to have earned their right to survival, at least until they get wiped out by other high-end civilizations. So in your conception it wouldn't really be a problem that he has the weaknesses he does, because it all it means is that he doesn't clear away people and groups that seem to have a pretty good idea about things.

[Protecar]

Of course, at that kind of activity it's relatively trivial for an intelligent caster to detain, distract, or point him at a different target.. but then I suppose any civilization that spawns level 10+ casters capable of doing that can be considered to have earned their right to survival, at least until they get wiped out by other high-end civilizations. So in your conception it wouldn't really be a problem that he has the weaknesses he does, because it all it means is that he doesn't clear away people and groups that seem to have a pretty good idea about things.

I think his real point(and if it isn't it's at least my idea)--is that he should be a credible threat without being twinked and decorated like an unflavorful Christmas tree. No lie, I like the ideas tossed about here--but for my idea of a revamped Tarrasque, it just seems...off to give it Soulmelds and wings and such. I like the idea of giving it some Supernatural abilities that give it equivocal power though(like the earth binding for fly-ers, the "no" to involuntary plane-shifting/teleporting). I especially like the idea of him never failing on a nat 1(or rerolling), and the other ideas that the universe favors him. It seems very fitting for Terry.

Also, I think the pathfinder Tarrasque is a better base. It actually has a (moreso) sensible land speed and some decent, non-bland abilities.

What about a roar attack? I think Terry would have a formidable roar--maybe something like:

Indomitable Roar
The Tarrasque's roar is deafening. For three rounds after the roar, all within 100ft must make a fort save 30 or be deafened for those rounds. May be used 1/10 rounds. Also, all must make a will save 30 or be panicked for one round.

Save numbers I just pulled out of thin air. But something like that?(and I'm not especially familiar with the Tarrasque so if he has a roar, my apologies).

[Runestar]

It does have a frightful presence, so another fear ability would be redundant. Plus, players will likely be immune to fear at this stage courtesy of heroes' feast anyways.

Any ideas we can steal from 4e? Say the ability to charge and consume/attack everything in its path?

[Runestar]

Flipped through my copy of elder evils today, and what did I see? A creature which I believe complete puts the tarrasque to shame.

Zargon.

This critter is insane! 14 attacks/round (12 tentacles, 1 bite, 1 gore), easily hitting you for 300+ damage/round. Less hp, regen50! (but can be more easily overcome), has some swift action attacks to round out its arsenal (assuming you swap out one of its feats for quicken SLA), all at a very reasonable cr16.

Has anyone faced Zargon? How did he stack up?:smallsmile:

[Marriclay]

Zargon was Friggin hard. By no means was my party optimized to the max, but we were no slouches, and we fought him at level 16. We won, but two of us died, a third was stable at negative hit points, and the only ones left were the Warblade and the Dread Necromancer, and they only managed it through self healing abilities.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Tack on some abilities to sense anything living. That should take care of invisibility and illusions. Maybe some sort of Planar Pursuit that lets it follow anyone using any form of Teleportation or Planar Travel.

Example: They Teleport away...the Tarrasque is Teleported as well. They Plane Shift the Tarrasque to the Positive Energy Plane, they're there, too...with the Tarrasque.

[Morph Bark]

Say, how about we make the Tarrasque a Gestalt Tarrasque//Fighter? That shouldn't make its CR go up that much. :smallamused: