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Karuth
2010-06-20, 01:04 PM
For a (also homebrew) setting using the Pathfinder Rules, I made a race of Gecko people. I am looking for some input, if the race is balanced/too weak/too strong compared to the other races in Pathfinder. Also I'm sure the wording could be improved to make it clearer and remove redundancies.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Here's link to the finished version: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8776878&postcount=19
EDIT2: I drew a picture now as well. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4129485

___________________________

• Ability adjustment: -2 Str, +2 Dex
• Racial Hit Dice: none (reptile)
• Size: small
• Movement: Land 20ft, Climb 20ft
• Low Light Vision
• Racial Skill Bonus: +8 climb (can always take 10 on climb checks)
• Automatic Languages: Common and reptile
• Favored Class: Ranger
• Special Abilities: Along the walls, Sticky Fingers, Hold it, Can't touch this

Along the Walls(Ex): Geckos need not make climb checks when traversing any surface as long as the Gecko has both hands and feet uncovered (e.g. not wearing shoes or gloves). He can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider.
A Gecko retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against him. He can also use the run action while climbing, providing he moves in a straight line (and all limbs are free and uncovered).
A Gecko isn’t subject to the climb difficulty of a given wall. He treats all kinds of walls (ex. masonry, hewn stone, bark) as a DC10 Climb check. If the wall has special surface modifiers (ex. covered in slick, made of force etc..) he cannot use this ability.
Removing an attached limb from a surface is a voluntary act by the Gecko. Thus an unconscious Gecko does not fall off a wall.

Hold it (Ex): Firmly attached a Gecko can hold twice his Heavy load with one limb. He cannot move with more weight than his heavy load though.

Sticky fingers (Ex): The special effect of their feet and hands grant a general +2 circumstance bonus whenever something is held and not supposed to let go.
Examples include but are not limited to:
+ 2 on Grapple checks to prevent someone from leaving the grapple.
+ 2 against disarm attempts
+ 2 stability bonus against Bull Rush, and similar actions, but must stand on solid ground (sand, gravel and the like negate this)

Can't touch this (Ex): A Gecko's limbs are self cleaning. With the exception of sovereign glue, no substance sticks to a Gecko foot for long. They can move over sticky substances like spider webs and normal glue without problems. Should their feet be covered in dirt, slime, glue, etc., simply moving over solid ground (or wall) will remove it quickly (within one round).

Zombieboots
2010-06-20, 03:21 PM
Nothing to add at the moment, I'd just like to comment on how much I love it. Simple, and flavourful. Straight forward and still leaves some wiggle room.

Excellent Job.

Edit: Ah I will say that most pathfinder races usually allow -2 to one stat and +2 to two other stats.

Now the Geckos abilities as mostly in line with the Basic PF races.
--Climbing (Speed and mobility)
-Situationally usefull carry double load
-- +2 Bonuses to various "Grasping" skills
--Very limited freedom of Movement
-Flavour about things "Sticking"

I think you're short changing you're self a +2 to one stat but the bonus should not be added to Dex again.

sscheib
2010-06-20, 04:06 PM
Yeah, I'd agree with Zombieboots. I'd give it another +2 to a different stat. Which one you choose really depends on the racial fluff. What kind of people are they?

Another_Poet
2010-06-20, 06:46 PM
Here are my comments.



• Ability adjustment: -2 Str, +2 Dex

As others suggested, consider another +2 stat to match most PF races.


• Racial Hit Dice: none (reptile)
1) Add a Type. Small Humanoid? Small Animal? Small Monstrous Humanoid? Something else?

2) You still need to give it racial HD, with the size of the HD determined by the Type (see #1 above). Gecko people who take a class level give up their single racial HD for their class HD just like any other base race with 1 HD.


• Size: small
• Movement: Land 20ft, Climb 20ft
• Low Light Vision


Cool.


• Racial Skill Bonus: +8 climb (can always take 10 on climb checks)

This might need to be reworded. A Climb speed already grants +8 to Climb checks. A racial skill bonus would stack with that, effectively giving the gecko +16 to climb. I assume that you intended for it to just have +8 coming from the Climb speed. I would consider writing it this way:
-Movement: 20'
-Climb Speed: 20'. Climb speed grants a +8 bonus to Climb checks and Gecko people can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks.


• Automatic Languages: Common and reptile

Is reptile a language used widely in your campaign setting? I don't believe it is one of the standard PF languages, is it? If not, it is largely useless in most settings. Or do you mean they can speak with non-intelligent reptiles? If so that is very powerful and should be limited to a small # of times per day like Gnomes' abilities.


Along the Walls(Ex): Geckos need not make climb checks when traversing any surface as long as the Gecko has both hands and feet uncovered (e.g. not wearing shoes or gloves). He can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider.
A Gecko retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against him. He can also use the run action while climbing, providing he moves in a straight line (and all limbs are free and uncovered).
A Gecko isn’t subject to the climb difficulty of a given wall. He treats all kinds of walls (ex. masonry, hewn stone, bark) as a DC10 Climb check. If the wall has special surface modifiers (ex. covered in slick, made of force etc..) he cannot use this ability.
Removing an attached limb from a surface is a voluntary act by the Gecko. Thus an unconscious Gecko does not fall off a wall.

This seems very complex rules-wise and very powerful balance-wise. It largely outdoes and replaces the climb speed. It has so many conditions that it will bog down play and lead to misunderstandings.

I would suggest this ability instead, which is more balanced for a LA+0 race and easier to use:

Along the Walls: A Gecko retains his Dex bonus to AC when climbing. A Gecko is not in danger of falling from a wall from taking hit point damage, and remains stuck to the wall if he falls unconscious. A Gecko has a +2 racial bonus to CMD against attempts to pull or knock him off of a wall.


Hold it (Ex): Firmly attached a Gecko can hold twice his Heavy load with one limb. He cannot move with more weight than his heavy load though.

I don't want to be mean, but this is ridiculous. First of all you can't even lift twice your heavy load, so how you could possibly hold it is beyond me. Secondly, being able to hold it has nothing to do with sticky fingers. Sure the heavy object would be stuck to your hand, but that just means your hand is pinned down to something you can't move. Last, the ability *might* make sense with a high-Str race but Geckoes actually get a strength penalty.

I would remove this ability altogether. Ability to stick to objects does not affect how much weight you can lift/hold. And being able to hold something heavy but not move with it is so rarely going to be useful, it is just wasted text.


Sticky fingers (Ex): The special effect of their feet and hands grant a general +2 circumstance bonus whenever something is held and not supposed to let go.
Examples include but are not limited to:
+ 2 on Grapple checks to prevent someone from leaving the grapple.
+ 2 against disarm attempts
+ 2 stability bonus against Bull Rush, and similar actions, but must stand on solid ground (sand, gravel and the like negate this)

This ability makes perfect sense but it is very strong. This combined with the climb speed and Along the Walls ability make this a LA+1 race. Having a +2 on CMD for almost everything is insanely powerful. Here are three options you might consider:

1) A Gecko has +2 to CMD against attempts to move it or take something out of its hands (Bullrush and Disarm); however, if the attempt succeeds, the Gecko's sticky feet or hands tear. The Gecko takes damage equal to 1d6 per every 2 points by which the CMB roll exceeded its CMD (minimum 1d6). A Gecko can choose not to use Sticky Fingers, but must declare it before the opponent rolls its CMB check.

2) A Gecko has +2 to CMD versus Disarm attempts (only).

3) Drop the ability altogether.


Can't touch this (Ex): A Gecko's limbs are self cleaning. With the exception of sovereign glue, no substance sticks to a Gecko foot for long. They can move over sticky substances like spider webs and normal glue without problems. Should their feet be covered in dirt, slime, glue, etc., simply moving over solid ground (or wall) will remove it quickly (within one round).

This is also powerful, at least at low levels. If a player had this ability I am not sure how I would adjudicate Web spells and Tanglefoot bags. Again, the ability makes perfect sense for the race, but is tricky to deal with and potentially a very strong ability for a race that already has a lot of strong abilities.

I would consider dropping this altogether. If you want to keep it, I would give a specific numeric bonus (e.g. +2 to any check or saving throw to move through sticky surfaces, except Sovereign Glue). If you do keep this ability, I would add a drawback too. For example, "Geckos' special feet leave a sticky trail wherever they go, giving a +4 bonus to anyone attempting to Track them."

However if you look at how actual gecko feet work I do not believe they are coated in any special substance, and putting them in a glue trap or other sticky surface will indeed stop them. I think it might be easiest to just drop this ability.

I do want to say this is an awesome race with a lot of flavour. If I were you I would look at Dwarf, Halfling and Gnome racial packages in PF to get a sense of what a race with a wide selection of unusual abilities is like. They are all weaker than your Gecko race. Tone this down and clean up the rules a little bit and you will have a great race.

ap

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-20, 07:01 PM
Another_Poet, all of those listed abilities are like that because of how a Gecko scales surfaces. They have about a thousand specialized setae on their toes that are theorized to use interplaying Van der waal forces to allow the Gecko to bond to a surface on a molecular level. A Gecko can literally support eight times its own weight with a single toe attached to a smooth surface because they can resist about 10 atmospheres worth of pressure.

Another_Poet
2010-06-20, 07:25 PM
Another_Poet, all of those listed abilities are like that because of how a Gecko scales surfaces. They have about a thousand specialized setae on their toes that are theorized to use interplaying Van der waal forces to allow the Gecko to bond to a surface on a molecular level. A Gecko can literally support eight times its own weight with a single toe attached to a smooth surface because they can resist about 10 atmospheres worth of pressure.

First of all, my catgirls are all deceased. I hold you responsible. :smallwink:

Secondly, there is a difference between being able to hang from a surface with 8x your weight attached, versus being able to "hold" up to twice your maximum load. The latter implies you can pick up and hold an object that weighs twice the maximum amount you are capable of picking up. Aside from the logical fallacy there, there is the fact that this involves extraordinary lifting strength, which has nothing to do with the ability to cling to a surface. "Supporting eight times its own weight with a single toe attached to a smooth surface" will be very helpful in avoiding being pulled off a wall by a strong enemy, which is already covered under a different ability - Sticky Fingers.

Third, if I was wrong in stating that a real-world gecko would be stuck in a real-world glue trap, I apologise. Can they? Are their thousand setae actually self-cleaning and able to escape from sticky surfaces? If so then my suggestion still stands: give a precise numeric bonus against sticky effects.

Last, the main point of my post was to suggest ways of bringing this race into balance with other LA+0 PF races. That is what Karuth asked for in the OP. As written, it is not balanced, and is very strong. Regardless of real-world gecko abilities, you simply cannot give a race...

-Bonus to CMD against nearly every possible CMB (three times the applications of a dwarf's Stability)
-Ability to ignore Climb DCs and treat all surfaces as DC 10, then take 10 for 18 (or 26?) and move freely on every surface;
-Possible +16 to Climb;
-Dex to AC while climbing;
-Ability to Run while climbing;
-Climb on ceilings no problem;
-Ability to lift extraordinary weights effortlessly;
-Ability to ignore many forms of difficult terrain, Web, Tanglefoot, possibly Grease? etc.;


....and still call it LA+0.

So if those abilities are intentional they need to be adjusted down and if they are unintentional (+16 Climb) they need to be reworded. I'm just trying to suggest ways to balance it, as requested, not impune the talents of real-world geckos. Sorry if it came across wrong. :)

DracoDei
2010-06-20, 09:32 PM
I think Hold It was just supposed help to keep people from ripping them off walls by grabbing them and doing a chin-up. It also makes them a great grappling hook in some parties... just tie a rope to them and hand them to someone with the "Throw Ally" feat... or have them climb to where they need to be and skip the throwing.

As for balance, being at -2 stat wise compared to other PF races would probably do a lot to help with that... and I agree that he probably meant +8, not +16.

sigurd
2010-06-20, 11:36 PM
I would settle the racial powers before you worry about stats. Personally, I like the idea of finding a few abilities and not giving the second plus.

I don't think 'Hold it' makes sense. You are effectively saying they can grab onto something and resist falling or being pulled off but its worded as if the ability is about lifting.

I think you have to be very clear on whether the gecko can carry anything in its hands while climbing. The first question about the race is going to be from archers trying to fire from unreachable places.

I don't like "Can't touch this". It seems like fodder for abuse. I'd add some flavour text to the climbing skill that geckos keep their hands and feet scrupulously clean, and leave it at that.

Climbing and sticky fingers really might be enough to balance the class without the extra +2 stat. I think I'd state that a Gecko that pauses in his journey along a forbidding path still must roll standard skill rolls. Its one thing to be able to climb a wall - its another to go half way up and pull out a bow.

If you do go with a changed 3rd stat why not have some types of gecko - frilled gecko +2 charisma, Gray Gecko +2 int or some such.



Sigurd

Karuth
2010-06-21, 12:34 AM
Thanks for all your information. I will try to address your questions. And later update the description (I am in a hurry at the moment ^^)

The language is not decided upon. Maybe they have their own, maybe not. You can ignore this.

They live on rock spires surrounded by water and connected via rope bridges. They are mostly a simple tribe of hunters (which means Ranger is their standard class).

For Along the walls I just used the wording of the Spider climb spell and adjusted it a little. Boots of spiderclimbing should give you similar abilities and you can get it at realitvely low levels (I dunno exactly but wasn't it 5000 gold or something?)

Yes the racial +8 Bonus to climb comes from their climb speed. It's not meant to be doubled.

The bonus is only when the gecko has his feet and limbs free. If he is holding a weapon he has to make a climb check to use it. I will try to word it better.

Hold it was supposed to be something of an emergency ability. Like he could hold his dwarven friend in fullplate and gear who just failed his climb check, even though his weight exceeds his maximum load. He couldn't do anything after that though. He's can only wait or let go (if he waits too long the weight could theoretically rip his arms off <.<).

Can't touch this simply means he can run over things like web. If the web is blocking the whole way or if he is hit with a tanglefoot bag he is stuck like everyone else.
Also a gecko monk should be able to strike a Mimic with his hands without getting stuck (but gets stuck normally when the mimic attacks him).
I found these situations don't really come up often, so I thought it was not much of a bonus.

Sticky fingers:
This is what I would allow as a GM when I read the race's ability. I would find it a bit sad to limit the creativity of the players here with only a few cases. Counting all instances where it might come up, it is a strong ability though. Will the lack of a second stat bonus make up for that?

Another_Poet
2010-06-21, 12:54 AM
Sticky fingers:
This is what I would allow as a GM when I read the race's ability. I would find it a bit sad to limit the creativity of the players here with only a few cases. Counting all instances where it might come up, it is a strong ability though. Will the lack of a second stat bonus make up for that?

I personally don't think so. Others may disagree. If this was the only special racial ability I think it would balance fine.

The thing to remember is that CMD in PF is already hard to hit by default, as it includes Str AND Dex. In this regard it is harder to hit CMD with CMB than it is to hit AC with an attack roll. The odds are already stacked in favour of the defender, and any bonus to CMD is huge. Also the penalty to CMD for being Small is only -1, not -4 like in 3.5. On the other hand the bonuses given to CMB by feats like Improved Grapple are smaller than in 3.5.

In other words any racial ability that boosts CMD is quite significant. Stability only applies to a narrow selection of situations and I would rule the same here.

I do think you should consider the idea of the damage drawback I suggested. I think this would balance it a lot and give it some strong flavour as well. Consider:

DM: The Orc is going to try to bull rush you. Are you using Sticky Fingers?
Gecko: Yep!
DM: OK, you know you'll be damaged if he succeeds, right?
Gecko: I know. I can take it!
DM: Okay, what's your CMD?
Gecko: With Sticky Fingers... 19.
DM *rolls* *pauses* *looks at Gecko player*
Gecko: Well?
DM: You said 19?
Gecko: *sweats bullets*
DM: He misses. You're fine! :smallamused:

Karuth
2010-06-21, 02:48 AM
Geckos are a small reptilians living on steep cliff and rock spires near lakes or the sea. Their skin color ranges from dirty yellow to dark green. Their main source of food comes from the fish in the water and seabirds sharing their habitat. Naturally many of a tribe’s members are hunters and fishers.
They are wary of outsiders, but not unfriendly.
___________________________

• Ability adjustment: -2 Str, +2 Dex
• Racial Hit Dice: 1d8 Small Humanoid
• Size: small
• Movement: Land 20ft, Climb 20f (Gives +8 Racial Climb Bonus)
• Low Light Vision
• Automatic Languages: Common and Reptilian Tongue
• Favored Class: Ranger
• Special Abilities: Along the walls, Sticky Fingers, Hold it, Can't touch this

Along the Walls(Ex):
A Gecko may take 10 on a climb check even when rushed or threatened and retains his Dexterity Bonus to AC when climbing. If a Gecko cannot fully use all 4 of his limbs (hands or feet covered, held items, injured…) he cannot take 10 on a climb check and loses the Dexterity Bonus.
If his hands and feet are completely covered he loses his racial climb speed (and climb bonus) altogether (there are special Gecko made gloves and shoes that leave out toes and fingertips).
He may add his Dexterity modifier to climb checks instead of Strength.
A Gecko may climb even perfectly smooth surfaces with a DC 40 climb check (only force walls cannot be climbed).

Hold it(Ex):
The penalty for climbing with a medium or heavy load is halved.

Sticky fingers (Ex):
The special effect of their hands grant a +2 circumstance bonus on CMD against disarming attempts (or to snatch held items away).

Can't touch this (Ex):
A Gecko's limbs are self cleaning. Should the underside of their feet be covered in dirt, slime, glue, etc., simply moving over solid ground (or wall) will remove it quickly (within one round) and they regain their climbing abilities.
With the exception of sovereign glue, no substance sticks to a Gecko foot for long. They get a +2 Bonus on checks for moving over or voluntarily touching sticky substances. If they get hit by a sticky substance they are subject to it like any other creature.

__________________

I hope I have covered most what was said in the comments.
Hold it might need a new name. Or it can be dropped altogether. Maybe ‘strong digits’?

I could imagine a typical Gecko hunter to stick to a rough wall with his feet and using a bow to shoot birds flying by.

Do you favor strange sounding fantasy names for your homebrew races? Or should I just stick with Gecko as a name?

Another_Poet
2010-06-21, 09:02 AM
"Hold It" seems like an OK name to me. You might find better but I can't think of any.

"Gecko People" or "Gecko Folks": (or even "Gecko Men" :smalltongue: ) might be better than just Gecko, to differentiate from the mundane lizard. Of course you could follow classic fantasy tradition and just spell it funny, e.g. "Ghekko" or put a spin on it like "Geckoen" or something.

Nicely balanced I would say. As written you might even be able to get away with giving them that other +2 stat.

sigurd
2010-06-21, 11:47 AM
Sticky fingers would hurt your dodge though.

If I knew a critter was stuck to the floor or something he's not going to dodge too well.

Another_Poet
2010-06-21, 11:53 AM
They only stick when they want to.

Karuth
2010-06-24, 01:05 AM
Sorry for the late reply.
Thank you for all your input. I have the feeling the race is now much better.


Gecko folk sounds not so bad. And Gecko is written Gecko in most other languages as well <.<

If I could add another +2 I would put them into Wis. Folk living in harmony with nature and have good perception sounds about right.

Another_Poet
2010-06-24, 09:11 AM
If I could add another +2 I would put them into Wis. Folk living in harmony with nature and have good perception sounds about right.

That sounds fitting. Though it could make for some scary druids and clerics :)

Regarding the name, you could also have two versions. Maybe they call themselves something in the Reptile language like Gesshaan or Kerss-taz or some other made up word. But the humans and other races just call them Gecko Folk or Geckoes because they look like geckoes and Reptile is hard to pronounce.

ap

Karuth
2010-06-24, 01:00 PM
That sounds fitting. Though it could make for some scary druids and clerics :)

Regarding the name, you could also have two versions. Maybe they call themselves something in the Reptile language like Gesshaan or Kerss-taz or some other made up word. But the humans and other races just call them Gecko Folk or Geckoes because they look like geckoes and Reptile is hard to pronounce.
ap

I like that idea. The other calling them Geckoes and they themselves something with a lot of "s"

I don't think it would matter where I put the last stat.
Int -> Good Wizard
Cha -> Good Sorcerer
Con -> Always good ^^

Another_Poet
2010-06-24, 01:03 PM
I don't think it would matter where I put the last stat.
Int -> Good Wizard
Cha -> Good Sorcerer
Con -> Always good ^^

Good point.

Karuth
2010-06-24, 04:38 PM
Seems like we're finished here. I just reformatted the racial description so it looks closer to the description in the Pathfinder Books, added the Wis Bonus as well as a little bit more fluff (just in case someone wants to use this in his or her own campain ^^)

Thanks to everyone who helped with the balancing. I definately will be playing this race in our next new adventure. I'll make it a Dexterity based Fighter :smallamused:

________________________________________________


Gesshaan, or Gecko Folk as they are known to outsiders, are small reptilians living on steep cliffs and rock spires near lakes or the sea, where they can take advantage of their climbing abilities and find protection from dangers.
Their skin color ranges from dirty yellow to dark green. They have 4 fingers on each hand as well as 4 toes on each foot. Each digit is covered in fine lamellae, which is the source of their climbing prowess. There is hardly any surface Gecko Folk can’t climb.
Their main source of food are fish and seabirds sharing their habitat. So it is not surprising that many members of a tribe are hunters or fishers.
They prefer to evade conflicts when possible, but will stand up to defend their homes if necessary. The greatest danger for them are usually flying creatures, as they can easily reach their vulnerable villages. They are wary of outsiders, but not unfriendly.

GECKO RACIAL TRAITS:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength: Gecko Folk are canny, but physically weak.
NG Small Humanoid (Reptilian). No Racial Hitdice. Advance by Class Level
Small: As small creatures Gecko Folk gain a +1 size Bonus to AC and attack rolls, as well as an -1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense. They also gain a +4 size bonus to Stealth.
Speed: Land 20 ft, Climb 20 ft (Gives +8 Racial Climb Bonus)
Low Light Vision: Gecko Folk can see twice as far in conditions of dim light.
Special Abilities: Along the walls, Sticky Fingers, Hold it, Can't touch this
Languages: Gecko Folk speak their own reptilian tongue that is distantly related to the draconic language.
Geckoes with high Intelligence can choose from the following list of languages: Common, Draconic, Gnome, Aquan, Auran

Along the Walls(Ex):
A Gecko may take 10 on a climb check even when rushed or threatened and retains his Dexterity Bonus to AC when climbing. If a Gecko cannot fully use all 4 of his limbs (hands or feet covered, held items, injured…) he cannot take 10 on a climb check and loses the Dexterity Bonus.
If his hands and feet are completely covered he loses his racial climb speed (and racial climb bonus) altogether. Gecko Folk make special gloves and shoes that leave out toes and fingertips.
He may add his Dexterity modifier to climb checks instead of Strength.
A Gecko may climb even perfectly smooth surfaces with a DC 40 climb check (only force walls cannot be climbed).

Hold it(Ex):
A Gecko’s toes have a lot of tolerance for weight. The penalty for climbing with a medium or heavy load is halved.

Sticky fingers (Ex):
The special effect of their digits grants a +2 circumstance bonus on CMD against disarming attempts (or to snatch held items away).

Can't touch this (Ex):
A Gecko's limbs are self cleaning. Should the underside of their feet be covered in dirt, slime, glue, etc. simply moving over solid ground (or wall) will remove it quickly (after one round) and they regain their full climbing abilities.
With the exception of sovereign glue, no substance sticks to a Gecko foot for long. They get a +2 Bonus on checks for moving over or voluntarily touching sticky substances. If they get hit by such a substance or attack they are subject to it like any other creature.

Another_Poet
2010-06-25, 12:47 PM
Awesome. Might want to link it in the first post so it's easy for others to find.