[3.5] Iaijutsu Focus seems overpowered

[Myou]

It does +1d6 if you roll a 10, and another 1d6 for every further 5 points. By starting with 20 cha my favoured soul (we let all classes take skills freely) has +9 to the check. So he can't fail to get an extra 1d6 against anyone flatfooted, and on average he'll get 2-3 d6, with the possibility of getting 4d6.

This is all at level 1. Won't this make any combat where I can win initiative totally onesided?

[The Glyphstone]

It's 3.0 material, but yes. If you can get IF as a class skill (say, Factotum), it's incredibly powerful.

Now, get a Gnomish Quickrazor (sheath as a free action) and Quick Draw (draw as a free action), plus that ability that makes opponents flat-footed against attacks right after you draw a weapon. Profit, no need for ???.

[Greenish]

Now, get a Gnomish Quickrazor (sheath as a free action) and Quick Draw (draw as a free action)Quickrazor is a free action to draw and sheathe without Quick Draw.

plus that ability that makes opponents flat-footed against attacks right after you draw a weapon. Profit, no need for ???.The skill trick only works once per combat and requires a hidden weapon (move action to draw with the skill trick), or so I seem to recall.


As for Iaijutsu Focus in general: the drawing weapon and getting the target flat-footed are the hoops to jump through to get it. Given those, a few d6's of damage isn't anything major.

[Hendel]

It is a powerful skill but I think the limitation of the opponent must be flat-footed , not just denied their dexterity, makes its usefulness limited. Yes, you will do a lot of damage in a surprise round or in the first round of combat if you win initiative, but a rogue will tend to do more damage over the course of a combat if they can get sneak attack.

The iajitsu focus is just front end loaded and if you put it with the iajitsu master, then you can do some awesome damage at the start of a battle. If you pick up Flick of the Wrist from the CW, you can use it more often with a light weapon.

My iajitsu master uses his katana in the beginning and then uses his wakizashi with the Flick of the Wrist feat for more damage with iajitsu focus.

[Talon Sky]

It's 3.0 material, but yes. If you can get IF as a class skill (say, Factotum), it's incredibly powerful.

Now, get a Gnomish Quickrazor (sheath as a free action) and Quick Draw (draw as a free action), plus that ability that makes opponents flat-footed against attacks right after you draw a weapon. Profit, no need for ???.

Do NOT let the combat players in my group read that....lol.

[Myou]

It's 3.0 material, but yes. If you can get IF as a class skill (say, Factotum), it's incredibly powerful.

Now, get a Gnomish Quickrazor (sheath as a free action) and Quick Draw (draw as a free action), plus that ability that makes opponents flat-footed against attacks right after you draw a weapon. Profit, no need for ???.

I'm TWF-ing with quickrazors. xD


As for Iaijutsu Focus in general: the drawing weapon and getting the target flat-footed are the hoops to jump through to get it. Given those, a few d6's of damage isn't anything major.

If I roll high I'll do an extra 4d6, and if both attacks hit, that's 8d6. At level 1! Isn't that pretty heavy damage?
I mean, a rogue gets an average of 3.5 bonus damage, I think my average will be about 10 (not that I ran the numbers).


It is a powerful skill but I think the limitation of the opponent must be flat-footed , not just denied their dexterity, makes its usefulness limited. Yes, you will do a lot of damage in a surprise round or in the first round of combat if you win initiative, but a rogue will tend to do more damage over the course of a combat if they can get sneak attack.

The iajitsu focus is just front end loaded and if you put it with the iajitsu master, then you can do some awesome damage at the start of a battle. If you pick up Flick of the Wrist from the CW, you can use it more often with a light weapon.

My iajitsu master uses his katana in the beginning and then uses his wakizashi with the Flick of the Wrist feat for more damage with iajitsu focus.

Well, that is true. I'm just worried about demolishing solo foes.

[Hendel]

It's 3.0 material, but yes. If you can get IF as a class skill (say, Factotum), it's incredibly powerful.

We also went ahead and gave it to the Samurai as a class skill in the 3.5 CW version as they had it in the 3.0 version of OA.

[Greenish]

If I roll high I'll do an extra 4d6, and if both attacks hit, that's 8d6. At level 1! Isn't that pretty heavy damage?If, if, if. If the raging barbarian (20 Str before Rage) crits with her greataxe she can slap the enemy for the average of 55 damage. If you win initiative, and if your both attacks hit, and if you roll high with Iaijutsu Focus both times you'll do an average of 35 damage (with two d6 weapons) + 1.5xStr.

[Edit]: Oh, and if you don't start the combat adjacent to the enemy, you only get one hit.

[Myou]

If, if, if. If the raging barbarian (20 Str before Rage) crits with his greataxe she can slap the enemy for the average of 55 damage. If you win initiative, and if your both attacks hit, and if you roll high with Iaijutsu Focus both times you'll do an average of 35 damage (with two d6 weapons) + 1.5xStr.

That is a very good point. XD
Ok, you're right, I shouldn't worry so much about this.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

[balistafreak]

We also went ahead and gave it to the Samurai as a class skill in the 3.5 CW version as they had it in the 3.0 version of OA.

It's still not enough. No, my friend, 'tis like a band-aid on the Mariana Trench. :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

That is a very good point. XD
Ok, you're right, I shouldn't worry so much about this.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

And of course, let's not forget a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (with 22 Str native thanks to Orchood; Str is the cheapest stat to boost) in Frenzy (of which he has 3 with Extra Rage) with Pounce doing consistent 2d4+12*2, or average 34 points of damage with a reach weapon without factoring in criticals at +7/+7 or +9/+9 (on charge) to hit, from up to 60' away. Greatsword would go up to 38 damage, Falchion would give very high crit chances, anyways. So...yeah. As Greenish said, don't worry.

[Morph Bark]

We also went ahead and gave it to the Samurai as a class skill in the 3.5 CW version as they had it in the 3.0 version of OA.

CW Samurai gestalted with the OA Samurai would be just crawling up a Tier-and-a-half. It still wouldn't be as good as it should be, but definitely better.

CW Samurai + OA Samurai w/ Zhentarim Fighter and Dungeoncrasher Fighter stuff in place of some of the OA Samurai's bonus feats?

[Greenish]

And of course, let's not forget a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (with 22 Str native thanks to Orchood; Str is the cheapest stat to boost)Yeah, I went with plain core barbarian because I wasn't sure of OP's optimization level, and with 20 Strength since that's equal to the relevant stat OP was using.

[Lycanthromancer]

A pouncing raging whirling frenzy-ing mounted spirit lion totem orc barbarian 1 with two flaws, a 26 Strength (while raging, of course), Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited charge (and a lance) can deal 3d8+36 damage per hit, with two attacks on a charge. That's 6d8+72 if both hit, at a sky-high attack bonus. Grab Power Attack at level 3, and Shock Trooper when you qualify.

Yeah, it's pretty much all your resources at level 1, but the barbarian's schtick is to deal damage, and this is pretty good at that.

[Hendel]

It's still not enough. No, my friend, 'tis like a band-aid on the Mariana Trench. :smallfrown:

I totally agree! I just needed to dip into it to get enough class levels of iajitsu focus to get into iajitsu master earlier than say 15th level. This way, I got into it by 6th level.

[PId6]

Iaijutsu Focus leads to some awesome builds, especially when combined with Iaijustu Master and Mercurial Strike in a very Cha-heavy build. How does Cha to AC x2, Cha to Saves, Cha to Initiative, Cha to Cha checks, and Cha to damage x9 sound?

[Greenish]

Cha to Cha checksThe others very pretty balanced, but that's insane!

[Os1ris09]

Iaijutsu Focus leads to some awesome builds, especially when combined with Iaijustu Master and Mercurial Strike in a very Cha-heavy build. How does Cha to AC x2, Cha to Saves, Cha to Initiative, Cha to Cha checks, and Cha to damage x9 sound?

Cheesy...... Like cheddar or American cheese. :smallbiggrin:

[JaronK]

IF is basically just like sneak attack. Yes it can be optimized, but it's hardly overpowered.

JaronK

[PId6]

The others very pretty balanced, but that's insane!
Probably should have specified again.

[The-Mage-King]

Gentlemen, you are forgetting a simple combination that can abuse this one skill to ungodly levels.

Step 1: Play a Human. Make your first level be in Human Paragon. Max Cha and make Iaijutsu Focus your permanant class skill.

Step 2: Then take a level in Warlock.

Step 3: Then finish off Human Paragon.

Step 4: Add another level or two of Warlock- only until you can get Walk Unseen.

Step 5: Take level in Rogue. Just keep leveling in it.

Step 6: Kill almost everything that can't see invisiblity in one hit.

Step 7: Laugh as your DM realizes how broken your build is.

To recap: Make Iaijutsu Focus your best skill by maxing Cha and letting yourself take ranks in it anytime, then take levels of Warlock until you have at will invisibility. Then add levels of Rogue.

[Flickerdart]

How are you getting CHAx9 to damage?

[Greenish]

How are you getting CHAx9 to damage?Iaijutsu Master adds Cha mod to each IF dice.

[Edit]:
Gentlemen, you are forgetting a simple combination that can abuse this one skill to ungodly levels.

Step 1: Play a Human. Make your first level be in Human Paragon. Max Cha and make Iaijutsu Focus your permanant class skill.

Step 2: Then take a level in Warlock.

Step 3: Then finish off Human Paragon.

Step 4: Add another level or two of Warlock- only until you can get Walk Unseen.

Step 5: Take level in Rogue. Just keep leveling in it.

Step 6: Kill almost everything that can't see invisiblity in one hit.

Step 7: Laugh as your DM realizes how broken your build is.

To recap: Make Iaijutsu Focus your best skill by maxing Cha and letting yourself take ranks in it anytime, then take levels of Warlock until you have at will invisibility. Then add levels of Rogue.So, uhm, you get Iaijutsu Focus and a few SA on a single hit. That's not so much damage.

[JaronK]

Step 6: Kill almost everything that can't see invisiblity in one hit.

Invisibility does not cause flat footedness. So, not very broken at all. Also, your damage isn't that high at all.

A better version of this would be Warlock 3/Factotum 8/Iajuitsu Master 5. Or just forget about Warlock entirely and go Factotum 8/Iajuitsu Master 10. Factotum hiding abilities are plenty with Darkstalker, and while invisibility doesn't cause flatfootedness Grease and winning initiative/surprise rounds do.

JaronK

[PId6]

Iaijutsu Master adds Cha mod to each IF dice.
Yep, and IF caps at 9d6. It's not too hard to max out IF, even without custom items/item familiar. A single level dip in Exemplar is pretty easy to do (Iaijutsu Master gets Skill Focus: IF as a bonus) and lets you take 10 in it as well as grants +4 competence.

[The-Mage-King]

Hm... Point.

[sofawall]

Something very important to note. Iaijutsu needs Flat-Footed, and while Flat-Footed may deny dex bonus to AC, denying Dex to AC does not cause Flat-Footed.

[Raiki]

The trick to causing flat-footedness is a feat from either RoS or RotW (I forget which). Underfoot combat. Only works for creatures 2 size categories smaller than their opponants, but when you play a web-enhancement kobold and count as tiny, that's not much of a problem.

~r~

[Zaq]

The trick to causing flat-footedness is a feat from either RoS or RotW (I forget which). Underfoot combat. Only works for creatures 2 size categories smaller than their opponants, but when you play a web-enhancement kobold and count as tiny, that's not much of a problem.

~r~

The problem with that feat is that it's not available until a relatively high level. This is fine if you're starting at level 12, but it's not like IF is so powerful that we can't let level 3 characters use it too, as far as I'm concerned.

[Mongoose87]

Why not take Warlock 1 before Human Paragon 2, so the Human Paragon advances your invocations?

[The Glyphstone]

This is another reason why Factotums are awesome, especially after Cunning Surge. Who cares if flat-footed only works in the first round of combat...that's the round when you have 8 standard actions to Iajatsu Focus them into a gooey smear across the floor. :)

[erikun]

Gentlemen, you are forgetting a simple combination that can abuse this one skill to ungodly levels.
This sounds like it would be much better on a Bard. Sneak/ Diplomancy/ sing/ spell someone into a lull, then quickdraw the rapier into their throat. You even get a use for having CHA that high, and can use it in any other Bard builds you can think of.

[Coidzor]

Why not take Warlock 1 before Human Paragon 2, so the Human Paragon advances your invocations?

I think Human Paragon 1 and Warlock 1 are practically interchangable in what order you take 'em, yeah, but I think he only specified taking one level in human paragon, then taking warlock 1, and then finishing human paragon. So that'd be a Human Paragon 3/Warlock 1 that has invocations as a Warlock 3, agree with you there, I'm not sure if he took that into account or not, which would potentially cut out those two levels of Warlock out of the build... unless Warlock 5 invocations are needed to get invisibility at will.

*shrug*

[2xMachina]

This is another reason why Factotums are awesome, especially after Cunning Surge. Who cares if flat-footed only works in the first round of combat...that's the round when you have 8 standard actions to Iajatsu Focus them into a gooey smear across the floor. :)

Surge takes 3 IP, and a lvl 20factotum only gets 10 (without feat).

I'd say you can surge 3 or 4 times at most in 1 fight (with feat). No feat, at ~lvl 10, 2 surges max.

[Heliomance]

Easiest way to make someone flatfooted is to use Grease or marbles.

[Hendel]

This is another reason why Factotums are awesome, especially after Cunning Surge. Who cares if flat-footed only works in the first round of combat...that's the round when you have 8 standard actions to Iajatsu Focus them into a gooey smear across the floor. :)

I know it does not say so directly, but to me Iajitsu Focus seems to imply that it works on the attack and only the attack that comes immediately after drawing the weapon.

It says "if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon you can deal extra damage."

Once more I could see that as ONLY the attack that comes first after drawing the weapon (sort of like sneak attack only applying to the first arrow of a normal multi-shot). I could also see that as meaning all of the attacks in the round that the weapon is drawn. If I were the DM I would interpret it as the first and give you the damage on a single attack, unless as was mentioned earlier, you could draw and sheath your weapon(s) multiple times while your opponent is flat-footed.

[2xMachina]

^ Yes. It only works with Quickrazors, which draw/sheathes on every attack.

[Hendel]

^ Yes. It only works with Quickrazors, which draw/sheathes on every attack.

That is a very potent attack!

[PId6]

^ Yes. It only works with Quickrazors, which draw/sheathes on every attack.
Quick Draw + a Quiver of Ehlonna full of katanas also works. Works better with Iaijutsu Master too, because of the katana-specific abilities it gets.

[Hendel]

Quick Draw + a Quiver of Ehlonna full of katanas also works. Works better with Iaijutsu Master too, because of the katana-specific abilities it gets.

That could work but the battlefield could get messy with several katanas laying around on the ground.

[PId6]

That could work but the battlefield could get messy with several katanas laying around on the ground.
Better watch your step then! :smallbiggrin:

[Boci]

That is a very potent attack!

True, but against a target who is not flatfooted you have spent a feat on EWP to wield a dagger that has a -2 to attack rolls on AoO.

[Rothen]

That could work but the battlefield could get messy with several katanas laying around on the ground.

Nevermind IF. The ongoing damage from stepping on katanas is just broken.

[Teron]

Nevermind IF. The ongoing damage from stepping on katanas is just broken.
That's it. I'm sick of all this "masterwork caltrops" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now...

[Lycanthromancer]

Nevermind IF. The ongoing damage from stepping on katanas is just broken.That's only if you're the party tank.

'Cuz katanas can cut right through them, y'know.

[Irreverent Fool]

Gentlemen, you are forgetting a simple combination that can abuse this one skill to ungodly levels.

Step 1: Play a Human. Make your first level be in Human Paragon. Max Cha and make Iaijutsu Focus your permanant class skill.

Step 2: Then take a level in Warlock.

Step 3: Then finish off Human Paragon.

Step 4: Add another level or two of Warlock- only until you can get Walk Unseen.

Step 5: Take level in Rogue. Just keep leveling in it.

Step 6: Kill almost everything that can't see invisiblity in one hit.

Step 7: Laugh as your DM realizes how broken your build is.

To recap: Make Iaijutsu Focus your best skill by maxing Cha and letting yourself take ranks in it anytime, then take levels of Warlock until you have at will invisibility. Then add levels of Rogue.

Step 8: Cry as your DM nerfs your build, calling it overpowered, but still lets wizards get spells above level 3.

[Rothen]

That's only if you're the party tank.

'Cuz katanas can cut right through them, y'know.

Badum-dish. (http://instantrimshot.com/)

[Grifthin]

Iaijutsu Focus leads to some awesome builds, especially when combined with Iaijustu Master and Mercurial Strike in a very Cha-heavy build. How does Cha to AC x2, Cha to Saves, Cha to Initiative, Cha to Cha checks, and Cha to damage x9 sound?

Please tell me how you aquire all those goodies - what feats and toyz you took. What skills and classes. Teach us master :smallbiggrin:

[Grumman]

That could work but the battlefield could get messy with several katanas laying around on the ground.
That's why you use Fleshgrinding katanas.

It's like that magic trick where the magician stabs a whole lot of swords into someone in a box, without the box.

[2xMachina]

True, but against a target who is not flatfooted you have spent a feat on EWP to wield a dagger that has a -2 to attack rolls on AoO.

I think you simply can't take AoO, because it's sheathed while not attacking. If you keep it ready in hand, you're taking -2 attack rolls to ALL your attacks

[Greenish]

I think you simply can't take AoO, because it's sheathed while not attacking. If you keep it ready in hand, you're taking -2 attack rolls to ALL your attacksYou can have spiked gauntlets, spiked armour or even a main weapon in your hand(s). That way you threaten, get AoO, and can still use the quickrazor to cut flatfooted opponents down.

[Person_Man]

The return on investment is good, but not amazing. You need a method to make your enemy Flat Footed, Gnomish Quickrazor (exotic weapon) or a similar trick (Quickdraw or Soulknife's free draw), and a large Skill investment (and often class abilities needed to pump the Skill). In return, you get a maximum of 9d6 (average 31.5) bonus damage per attack. For a similar investment in the Power Attack tree, you can easily get a 40+ point bonus to damage, which can be multiplied (unlike Iaijutsu Focus). And there are a wide variety of spells which have a higher chance of success, but require minimal resources.

Iaijutsu Focus is far better then Precision Damage, but it's not better then 80% of the other stuff in 3.X D&D.

[Choco]

Yes, Iaijutsu is awesome.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276

The dagger version, while not as "flavorful", would allow 32 attacks per round at lvl 20 with the right equipment and spells cast, each of them touch attacks. The trick is going first, but there are spells for that :smallbiggrin:

[Escheton]

It is made too get the whole "stoic warrior not drawing his weapon untill the last moment and not needing any more strikes then just that one hit"
It is't made for the normal hittrading combat situations.
And as such it shouldn't really be used in normal play. Unless perhaps you are also a truenamer.

[Salbazier]

How about Saphire Nightmare Blade? It makes the target flat-footed for an attack

[2xMachina]

A single attack only though. I'd say a full attack would match the damage (provided you've good base damage already)

[Boci]

It is made too get the whole "stoic warrior not drawing his weapon untill the last moment and not needing any more strikes then just that one hit"

The problem is it doesn't work like that. Creatures have so many HP that its more "stoic warrior not drawing his weapon untill the last moment and does a bit of extra damage" if you're only using it for the first attack.



And as such it shouldn't really be used in normal play. Unless perhaps you are also a truenamer.

Can you explain why you think a mess-of-mechanics-that-is-called-a-class and an interesting and powerful option for extra damage are mutually inclusive?


I think you simply can't take AoO, because it's sheathed while not attacking. If you keep it ready in hand, you're taking -2 attack rolls to ALL your attacks

I thought that penalty to attack disappeared as soon as you sheathed and drew it again.


You can have spiked gauntlets, spiked armour or even a main weapon in your hand(s). That way you threaten, get AoO, and can still use the quickrazor to cut flatfooted opponents down.

But a single weapon can be better enchanted, so there are still disadvantages.

[DrGonzo]

In what books are Ijatsu Focus/Mastery, and the gnomisch quickrazor?

[hamishspence]

Oriental Adventures for Iaijutsu Focus, Races of Stone for Gnomish Quickrazor.

[Boci]

In what books are Ijatsu Focus/Mastery,

Oriental adventures.


and the gnomisch quickrazor?

Races of Stone.

Edit: Iaijutsu-ed by a swordsage.

[Optimystik]

We also went ahead and gave it to the Samurai as a class skill in the 3.5 CW version as they had it in the 3.0 version of OA.

A couple of other classes get it too, like the Noble from Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Salbazier]

A couple of other classes get it too, like the Noble from Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

Iaijutsu in Dragonlance? Weird.

[Optimystik]

Iaijutsu in Dragonlance? Weird.

Nobles have an ability that lets them pick any cross-class skill at first level and make it a class skill :smallwink:

They are basically a PC version of the Aristocrat.

[hamishspence]

Isn't that more a case of "all skills are class skills" for the Noble- hence, if you choose to add the Iaijutsu Focus skill to your dragonlance game, the Noble automatically gets it?

EDIT: Ninjaed- apparently its "one skill of any, can be a class skill"

[2xMachina]

I thought that penalty to attack disappeared as soon as you sheathed and drew it again.


Hmm, I guess... If you sheathed it, yeah, it'll work ok.

[Greenish]

But a single weapon can be better enchanted, so there are still disadvantages.You don't have to enchant a spiked gauntlet to threaten people with it, though now that I think of it I'm not sure you get to whip out your quickrazor to make AoO with it.

[2xMachina]

You've to take the AoO with the weapon you threaten with.

[Greenish]

You've to take the AoO with the weapon you threaten with.Are you sure? :smallconfused:

[2xMachina]

Huh, there is no mention of it RAW, but IMO, it only makes sense.

I'm holding a spiked chain and a bow. I shoot you with my bow for provoking an AoO from my chain.

[Ingus]

Iaijutsu Focus is a pretty good skill, but it is backstory related. You cannot take it if you're not trained in the fine art of mental duels, like a great samurai.
So, even if you go Factotum, I'll not make you use it, as DM, unless you're trained by a kensei (literal meaning: swordmaster, not the class) or a great samurai or else (as a Factotum) you should at least had seen this kind of fight.

So, if you barely want to fake a far resemblance of credibility in your backstory, you should drop it or play OA

[DragoonWraith]

Iaijutsu Focus is a pretty good skill, but it is backstory related. You cannot take it if you're not trained in the fine art of mental duels, like a great samurai.
So, even if you go Factotum, I'll not make you use it, as DM, unless you're trained by a kensei (literal meaning: swordmaster, not the class) or a great samurai or else (as a Factotum) you should at least had seen this kind of fight.

So, if you barely want to fake a far resemblance of credibility in your backstory, you should drop it or play OA
The entire point of the Factotum is that they can do anything, and they can do it without the usual training. Your claims of fluff restrictions flies directly in the face of the Factotum's fluff.

[Akal Saris]

You could carry a second (or many more) hidden quickrazor or dagger and use the flat-footed AOO skill trick with the second one while full attacking with the attached normal one. If that makes sense.

Personally, I think Iajutsu Focus is a little cheesy for non-OA games, but not game-breaking. Much like autohypnosis in non-psionic games.

Some good classes with IF:
Rogue, scout, ninja: Just to add a little more dmg for melee builds in R1
Factotum: nuff said already in this thread
Swordsage: Can make ppl FF easily enough, has skills to spare and meshes well with tactics
Warblade: Gets quick draw as a bonus feat, can make foes flat-footed and doesn't need many skills anyhow
Cloistered Cleric: Meh, you have the skills to spare and a decent Cha, might as well put a few CC ranks in here.

[Greenish]

I'm holding a spiked chain and a bow. I shoot you with my bow for provoking an AoO from my chain.That's a silly example. Both the chain and the bow require two hands to wield, and in any case AoO have to be melee attacks (unless you have spells or class features allowing you to use ranged weapons for them).

Now, if you threaten an area with your IUS or spiked gauntlet (or both), why wouldn't it make sense to be able to attack with the quickrazor?

[Akal Saris]

Iaijutsu Focus is a pretty good skill, but it is backstory related. You cannot take it if you're not trained in the fine art of mental duels, like a great samurai.
So, even if you go Factotum, I'll not make you use it, as DM, unless you're trained by a kensei (literal meaning: swordmaster, not the class) or a great samurai or else (as a Factotum) you should at least had seen this kind of fight.

So, if you barely want to fake a far resemblance of credibility in your backstory, you should drop it or play OA

This is why I fluffed my last factotum as a "ninja" and IF as her "surprise attack."

[jiriku]

That's a silly example. Both the chain and the bow require two hands to wield, and in any case AoO have to be melee attacks (unless you have spells or class features allowing you to use ranged weapons for them).

Now, if you threaten an area with your IUS or spiked gauntlet (or both), why wouldn't it make sense to be able to attack with the quickrazor?

I'll see your chain and bow silliness and raise you a thri-kreen archer-tripmonkey.

[Greenish]

I'll see your chain and bow silliness and raise you a thri-kreen archer-tripmonkey.I add an at-will item of Arrow Mind and shake carefully.

[The Glyphstone]

Personally, I think Iajutsu Focus is a little cheesy for non-OA games, but not game-breaking. Much like autohypnosis in non-psionic games.
.

Not to derail the topic, but what's really that cheesy about Autohypnosis? Aside from the fact that none of its functions are actually psionic, it can:
-Save your cleric a cantrip slot by stabilizing you when you're dying.
-Let you take an action while at 0 HP exactly without dropping to -1.
-Let you make a skill check instead of a save against Fear or Poison.
-Memorize large amounts of written information.

The only really useful part of that is getting the secondary save vs. Fear or Poisons. Good, but I don't know if it's that cheesy.

[Sliver]

This is why I fluffed my last factotum as a "ninja" and IF as her "surprise attack."

LIES!

I watched Naruto and I know that it's not honorable for a ninja to strike an unsuspecting foe like that.

It's not the ninja way.

[Akal Saris]

Not to derail the topic, but what's really that cheesy about Autohypnosis? Aside from the fact that none of its functions are actually psionic, it can:
-Save your cleric a cantrip slot by stabilizing you when you're dying.
-Let you take an action while at 0 HP exactly without dropping to -1.
-Let you make a skill check instead of a save against Fear or Poison.
-Memorize large amounts of written information.

The only really useful part of that is getting the secondary save vs. Fear or Poisons. Good, but I don't know if it's that cheesy.

It's cheesy in that you're using a skill that is never included on the lists for non-psionic classes, especially if the game isn't using anything else from the XPH. Much like how Ingus doesn't like non-samurai taking IF, I generally don't take autohypnosis on non-psionic characters. The skill itself isn't that cheesy, though it's better than many skills when it comes to combat-heavy games.

[balistafreak]

The only really useful part of that is getting the secondary save vs. Fear or Poisons. Good, but I don't know if it's that cheesy.

Hey, I'd say memorizing large quantities of information is really good too.

(Unfortunately, it seems to have nothing to do with Knowledge checks, soooo... yeah. :smallannoyed:)

[2xMachina]

If it's on your class skill list, it ain't cheesy to use it. That said... Factotum gets all class skills.

[Greenish]

If it's on your class skill list, it ain't cheesy to use it. That said... Factotum gets all class skills.Human paragons get to pick theirs, as do experts and nobles.

[Boci]

Now, if you threaten an area with your IUS or spiked gauntlet (or both), why wouldn't it make sense to be able to attack with the quickrazor?

It does make sense, but you cannot make free actions when it is not your turn without the skill trick, so you cannot draw the quick razor by RAW.

[Greenish]

It does make sense, but you cannot make free actions when it is not your turn without the skill trick, so you cannot draw the quick razor by RAW.Ah, that's what I feared. I'm not certain it's worth burning feats for Mercurial Strike, either.

[The Glyphstone]

It's cheesy in that you're using a skill that is never included on the lists for non-psionic classes, especially if the game isn't using anything else from the XPH. Much like how Ingus doesn't like non-samurai taking IF, I generally don't take autohypnosis on non-psionic characters. The skill itself isn't that cheesy, though it's better than many skills when it comes to combat-heavy games.

Okay, that makes more sense with the analogy.

[Coidzor]

It does make sense, but you cannot make free actions when it is not your turn without the skill trick, so you cannot draw the quick razor by RAW.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure they allow talking (a free action) when it isn't one's turn. What skill trick are you referring to anyway?

[sofawall]

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure they allow talking (a free action) when it isn't one's turn. What skill trick are you referring to anyway?

Free actions can only be taken during your turn. I'm not sure if talking is an exception or not, but people always rule it as such anyway.

[Rothen]

Talking is an exception to the Free Action rules.


In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn.

[sofawall]

Well there you go.

[PId6]

Please tell me how you aquire all those goodies - what feats and toyz you took. What skills and classes. Teach us master :smallbiggrin:
It's just massive dipping for Cha-based class features. I haven't looked at the build in a while, so it can probably be optimized further, but it's something like this:

Stalwart Sorcerer 1/Battle Dancer 1/Sleeping Tiger Monk 1/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Factotum 1/Sleeping Tiger Monk +1/Marshal 1/Warblade 1/Iaijutsu Master 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1

Take Able Learner and Precocious Apprentice at 1st level, take Ascetic Mage at 3rd, and use the rest of your feats for the ridiculous amount of prereqs, Mercurial Strike, and Robilar's Gambit.

Cha to AC is from Battle Dancer and Monk (with Ascetic Mage). Cha to saves is from Paladin. Cha to Cha checks (again) from Marshal 1. Cha to init from Iaijutsu Master 2. Cha to damage applies to each Iaijutsu Focus dice thanks to Iaijutsu Master 5 (which caps at 9d6). It's an incredibly late-game build because of all the things needed to make the combo work, but it's fun once you actually get there.

[The Cat Goddess]

One problem...

Just like Monk & Swordsage don't stack for +Wis-to-AC, BattleDancer & Ascetic Mage/Monk won't stack for +Cha-to-AC.

[DragoonWraith]

BattleDancer & Ascetic Mage/Monk won't stack for +Cha-to-AC.
Do they specifically say so? Swordsage does. Otherwise, they do.

[hamishspence]

It doesn't specifically mention it- maybe because the Battledancer is Any Chaotic and the Monk Any Lawful.

It doesn't have an "ex-battledancers" section either- explaining if you keep al your class features, or only some of them.

[The Cat Goddess]

Do they specifically say so? Swordsage does. Otherwise, they do.

Actually, under the description of Swordsage, it does not say so. The Rules say "Bonuses from the same source do not stack".

The ruling is, since the Bonus is named the same in both cases, it does not stack. The AC Bonus for BattleDancer is named the same as the AC Bonus for Monk.

However, this clearly flies in the face of the Fist of the Forest PrC... which gives Con-to-AC and is named the same as the Monk AC Bonus, yet the example character gets Dex, Wis & Con to AC.

What that seems to indicate is that a Swordsage (Wis-to-AC) could get a level of BattleDancer (Cha-to-AC), then get a level of Monk w/ Kung-Fu Genius (Int-to-AC) and then move into the Fist of the Forest (Con-to-AC) without any problem. Then, if he's really crazy, he could go Duelist (Int-to-Dodge-AC)... but that caps at your current Duelist level.

Technically, a Dwarf could get the PrC that gives Con-to-AC in place of Dex-to-AC and that would stack... because it's clearly named differently. There's also an old Dragon Magazine PrC called (I think) Arcane Duelist that gives (Cha-to-Dodge-AC) in a similar fashion to the regular Duelist PrC.

But getting the same stat to AC twice? Not from Monk-Like Class Features.

Edit: To get around the "Monk must be Lawful" problem, use the Chaos Monk (from Dragon Magazine) & Paladin of Freedom or Crusader (or even Hexblade) for Saves. I like Hexblade because of Mettle.

[PId6]

Just like Monk & Swordsage don't stack for +Wis-to-AC, BattleDancer & Ascetic Mage/Monk won't stack for +Cha-to-AC.
The reason that Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses do not stack is because Monk's only work while unarmored, while Swordsage's only works while wearing light armor. The idea that their abilities are named the same and thus do not stack is not RAW; it's an incorrect ruling by the Sage (IIRC). The AC bonuses clearly do not come from the same source, since they are different class features from different classes.

I forgot Battle Dancer requires chaotic. Still, you don't actually lose anything from "falling" besides not being able to take the class again, so just switch alignment before taking Monk.

[The Cat Goddess]

The reason that Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses do not stack is because Monk's only work while unarmored, while Swordsage's only works while wearing light armor. The idea that their abilities are named the same and thus do not stack is not RAW; it's an incorrect ruling by the Sage (IIRC). The AC bonuses clearly do not come from the same source, since they are different class features from different classes.

I forgot Battle Dancer requires chaotic. Still, you don't actually lose anything from "falling" besides not being able to take the class again, so just switch alignment before taking Monk.

So I could (by what you're saying) take a level of Chaos Monk (Wis-to-AC), then a level of [Simple Variant Druid (Wis-to-AC) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid), then change to LN and take a level of Monk (Wis-to-AC) and get Wis-x3-to-AC?

[PId6]

So I could (by what you're saying) take a level of Chaos Monk (Wis-to-AC), then a level of [Simple Variant Druid (Wis-to-AC) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid), then change to LN and take a level of Monk (Wis-to-AC) and get Wis-x3-to-AC?
I'm not familiar with Chaos Monk, but if it's a Monk variant, than you can't use it alongside the normal class.

But yes, you can get 2x Wis to AC using Monk + Swift Hunter Druid.

[Optimystik]

The ruling is, since the Bonus is named the same in both cases, it does not stack. The AC Bonus for BattleDancer is named the same as the AC Bonus for Monk.

However, this clearly flies in the face of the Fist of the Forest PrC... which gives Con-to-AC and is named the same as the Monk AC Bonus, yet the example character gets Dex, Wis & Con to AC.


I am loathe to rely on WotC sample characters for any sort of rules veracity.

[The Cat Goddess]

I am loathe to rely on WotC sample characters for any sort of rules veracity.

Accepted... but the PrC is woefully worthless without allowing them to stack.

[PId6]

Accepted... but the PrC is woefully worthless without allowing them to stack.
Except they do by RAW, so I don't really see the problem.

[Greenish]

Accepted... but the PrC is woefully worthless without allowing them to stack.You enter as a barbarian on your way to bear warrior, so the matter is moot. :smallcool: