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Marriclay
2010-06-20, 05:35 PM
I've seen it a few times mentioned in threads, but I'm not really sure what it is. All I know is that it's... something to swap around feats

Can anybody tell me what Chaos Shuffle is and where it's from?

Greenish
2010-06-20, 05:37 PM
Two spells from Fiend Folio II (I think).

Embrace the Dark Chaos: swap your feats for Abyssal Heritor feats.
Shun the Dark Chaos: swap Abyssal Heritor feats for normal feats.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-20, 05:40 PM
Two spells from Fiend Folio II (I think).

Fiendish Codex I is the one about demons.

Marriclay
2010-06-20, 05:41 PM
Two spells from Fiend Folio II (I think).

Embrace the Dark Chaos: swap your feats for Abyssal Heritor feats.
Shun the Dark Chaos: swap Abyssal Heritor feats for normal feats.

YE GODS

That's insane!

Weezer
2010-06-20, 05:47 PM
YE GODS

That's insane!

Tell me about it.

Works best with races that get a lot of proficiencies (but not all martial), such as elf. With elf you can turn their 4 proficiencies (rapier, longsword, longbow and shortbow) into any 4 feats.

It's quite absurd.

Coidzor
2010-06-20, 05:51 PM
Has a bit of a GP cost for doing so(IIRC, something like 4900 per feat, so nothing to sneeze at for the full kit and kaboodle.... I think...), but, yeah, it's pretty sweet for those who'll make use of it.

I believe the leg up it has on Psychic Reformation is that it can trade away Weapon Proficiency and other bonus feats that normally can't be exchanged for something nifty. So, yeah, what Weezer said.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-20, 05:57 PM
Has a bit of a GP cost for doing so(IIRC, something like 4900 per feat, so nothing to sneeze at for the full kit and kaboodle.... I think...), but, yeah, it's pretty sweet for those who'll make use of it.

I believe the leg up it has on Psychic Reformation is that it can trade away Weapon Proficiency and other bonus feats that normally can't be exchanged for something nifty. So, yeah, what Weezer said.
More along the lines of: It lets you swap an arbitrary feat (class bonus, racial bonus, whatever), for any feat you qualify for now. So if you're 15th level, you can trade out that 3rd level feat for something that requires six other feats to qualify for ... because you have those now.

Morph Bark
2010-06-20, 06:02 PM
Now imagine the Chaos Shuffle being used by a munchkin.

Now imagine that munchkin having a character with Vow of Poverty.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-20, 06:05 PM
Honestly, even with the VoP feats not being Exalted-only, it's still not really worth it unless they're a Druid or Totemist, most likely.

Critical
2010-06-20, 06:05 PM
Now imagine the Chaos Shuffle being used by a munchkin.

Now imagine that munchkin having a character with Vow of Poverty.

Now imagine a DM full-attacking with the DMG.

gbprime
2010-06-20, 10:12 PM
works best if you've taken levels in dweomerkeeper (complete divine web enhance). then you get to cast them for no XP cost. along with any wishes you make. and don't forget to keep visiting the otugh hole!

Gametime
2010-06-20, 11:51 PM
Honestly, even with the VoP feats not being Exalted-only, it's still not really worth it unless they're a Druid or Totemist, most likely.

It might be if you reason that, having already traded away the Exalted feats from the VoP, you keep the Chaos Shuffle'd feats after you violate your Vow.

It'd only really work with a high level build, but take Vow of Poverty at first level, trade away all your feats at 20th level, violate Vow, buy magic items, profit! You've traded in one feat (and a lot of gold and a not negligible amount of experience) for a lot of feats!

(Of course, this relies on the character creation process allowing a nebulous view of time and space, since you need to get to 20th level while still Exalted, perform the shuffle, violate your Vow, and then gain access to the 20 levels of WBL you're owed. Don't think about it too hard.)

Private-Prinny
2010-06-20, 11:59 PM
It might be if you reason that, having already traded away the Exalted feats from the VoP, you keep the Chaos Shuffle'd feats after you violate your Vow.

It'd only really work with a high level build, but take Vow of Poverty at first level, trade away all your feats at 20th level, violate Vow, buy magic items, profit! You've traded in one feat (and a lot of gold and a not negligible amount of experience) for a lot of feats!

(Of course, this relies on the character creation process allowing a nebulous view of time and space, since you need to get to 20th level while still Exalted, perform the shuffle, violate your Vow, and then gain access to the 20 levels of WBL you're owed. Don't think about it too hard.)

It gets even better. You can still trade away the Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty after you're done with them. People have already brought up how to bypass the XP cost, and as for the WBL, you could simply give your stuff to your allies and then reclaim it when the time is right.

Gametime
2010-06-21, 12:20 AM
It gets even better. You can still trade away the Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty after you're done with them. People have already brought up how to bypass the XP cost, and as for the WBL, you could simply give your stuff to your allies and then reclaim it when the time is right.

True about trading away those feats. I don't think the WBL thing works, though. The Voluntary Poverty section pretty explicitly says you're supposed to receive your fair share of WBL and donate it to charity.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-21, 12:26 AM
True about trading away those feats. I don't think the WBL thing works, though. The Voluntary Poverty section pretty explicitly says you're supposed to receive your fair share of WBL and donate it to charity.

It explicitly suggests it at the very least. However, nothing says that you lose the abilities granted by the feat if you just leave your treasure with the party, so it should work unless your DM feels like sticking to how the feat was actually meant to go.