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whoiam
2010-06-20, 06:42 PM
Current Version: 1.0.2 (Release)
Version History:

Version 1.0.2 - Fixed the tables after the forum migration
Version 1.0.1 - Some minor formatting changes
Version 1 - No changes at all! That's why it's version 1:)
Version 0.2.3 - Altered the Enhancement Points progression. Added notes on Kensai, Rapid Shot and Templates to an Errata section.
Version 0.2.2 - Added NecroticPunch's Zoanthrope PrC to the OP
Version 0.2.1 - Replaced the missing limb information
Version 0.2 - Redrafts. Slight cost adjustments. Size increases now give attribute bonuses as normal. Energy Resistance values higher (20HD Tyranid now has Resistance (All) 20 or equivalent). Added free Weapon Finesse for Natural Weapons.
Version 0.1.6 - Added Class Skills
Version 0.1.5 - Added Spore Mines, altered the Stalker upgrade.
Version 0.1.4 - Adjusted LA of regeneration, clarified gender rules.
Version 0.1.3 - Clarification of ability scaling rates.
Version 0.1.2 - Clarified the Tyranid's movement speeds.
Version 0.1.1 - Added Fast Healing, Regeneration and the Stalker upgrade.
Version 0.1 - Initial post




Tyranids
Tyranids are a playable species from Warhammer 40,000, and some of the computer games based upon it. They are intelligent (albeit moreso in large groups) and when found in packs have a tendancy to (try to) devour entire galaxies.

This is my attempt at adapting Tyranids, in all their insectoid splendour, for use in a D&D 3.5e game.

The Basic Tyranid

A Tyranid is a four-limbed, one-tailed insectoid monster with a deep purplish armoured carapace.

Tyranids have the following statistics:
LA+0
Size: Medium
Alignment: Always Lawful (Lawful Neutral when members of a full Hive Mind)
Gender: Playable Tyranids are always (technically) female. Most Tyranids are sterile female drones: However, some (smaller) breeds are capable of asexual egg laying. For all practical intents and purposes, the drones are genderless.
Creature Type: Monstrous Insect

Carapace
A Tyranid's Carapace counts as a piece of Light Armor with no ASF, no ACP, and no weight. It provides a +2 Armor Bonus and a +1 Natural Armor Bonus.

Limbs
A Tyranid starts with four Major Limbs and one Minor Limb (the tail). These are fully customisable using the 'Limbs' rules below.

Power Resistance
All Tyranids have a Power Resistance equal to 5 + Tyranid HD + the modifier of the Tyranid's highest mental stat.

Fast Healing
All Tyranids heal 1HP of damage per HD per hour, instead of 1 per level per day.

Natural Weapon Finesse
All Tyranids may use their Dex bonus or their Str bonus while making Melee Attack rolls with Natural Weapons, whichever is higher.

Advancement
Tyranids can advance by HD or Class Level - rules for advancing by HD are provided in the 'Tyranid HD' section below.


Tyranid Variants

The stock Tyranid represents the weakest, simplest version of a Tyranid. To play a stronger variant of a Tyranid, select the desired alterations from the table below. The LA of the final creature is the sum of the LAs of each modification. Where this number is a fraction, round up to the nearest whole number.

Modifying Tyranids During Play
It is permitted (unless the DM says no) to add features from this table to a Tyranid during a campaign. In such cases, add the new abilities or body parts to your Tyranid at level up instead of a new Class Level or HD. It is not permitted to remove features from a Tyranid. This rule can be used in conjunction with LA Buyback, but only before the first level has been bought back.


LAFeature
0.25Add a Minor Limb
0.5Add a Major Limb
0.5Increase the size of Tyranid HD by two sizes (D4->D8, D8->D12)
0.5Increase Skill Points per HD to 6+Int
1Increase size by one category.
1Double Tyranid Attribute Bonuses
1Double Tyranid Energy Resistance
1Double Tyranid DR
1Add Regeneration (1/HD/Round). Only physical attacks with the Chaotic and Magical descriptors, Energy Attacks using one of the two types against which the Tyranid has the lowest resistance (player's choice if there is a tie for lowest or second lowest resistance - this choice cannot be altered once made unless the Energy Resistance for one of these types increases), or spells or powers with the 'Chaotic' descriptor bypass Regeneration.
1Add the 'Stalker' package. This grants the Tyranid a camoflage exoskeleton (allowing the Tyranid a +20 untyped bonus on Hide checks), the Stalk ability (allowing the Tyranid to a +20 untyped bonus on Move Silent checks if moving at 1/2 its maximum speed or slower), Blindsight 60', Scent, Track, Hide in Plain Sight, Pounce and Flesh Hooks (a ranged touch attack to initiate a grapple at a distance of 30' beyond the reach of the Tyranid's largest natural weapon. It can also be used as a grappling hook at the same distance). This also adds Hide and Move Silently to the Tyranid's Class Skills list.
1Spore Launcher - Allows the launching of up to 1 Spore Mine per day per Tyranid HD. All spores have a range increment of 60', and explode upon contact with an animate organism, outsider or construct. If shot at an empty square, the spore mine will drift towards the nearest valid target within 100' at a rate of 10' a round, and explode upon contact.
2Tyranid HD stack with one Caster, Manifester or Initiator class for purposes of Caster/Manifester/Initiator level and spells/PP/maneuvers per day.
4Tyranid HD stack with two Caster, Manifester or Initiator classes for purposes of Caster/Manifester/Initiator level and spells/PP/maneuvers per day.


Spore Mines

Spore TypeEffect (Target Square)Effect (20' burst)Save
Frag1d6 piercing damage per Tyranid HD1d6 piercing damage per 2 Tyranid HDReflex Save, DC Tyranid HD + Tyranid Dex Bonus to halve
AcidEvery piece of equipment must make a fort save or suffer 1d6 acid damage per 2 Tyranid HDArea counts as atmospheric acid for next 5 roundsFortitude save, DC Tyranid HD + Con Bonus to negate (direct target only)
ToxinDelivers poison or toxin of Tyranid's ChoiceDelivers poison or toxin of Tyranid's choiceReflex Save, DC Tyranid HD + Tyranid Dex bonus to negate

Note: The Tyranid must have encountered and studied a poison or toxin before it can reproduce it in spore mines. All Tyranids have knowledge of Sassone Leaf Residue.


Tyranid HD

Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival, Tumble.
Skill Points: 2+Int or 6+Int
HD: D4, D8 or D12


Tyranid HDBABArmor BonusNatural Armor BonusDeflection BonusResistanceEmpowered StrikeEnhancement LimitDR/Magic and ChaoticEnergy ResistanceBase Speed
11422515
22422111015
33542211515
445421+1222015
555421+1322515
66/16531+1333020
77/26531+1433520
88/36532+2444020
99/47632+2544520
1010/57632+2555020
1111/6/17632+2655525
1212/7/28743+3666025
1313/8/38743+3766525
1414/9/48743+3777025
1515/10/59843+3877525
1616/11/6/19844+4888030
1717/12/7/29844+4988530
1818/13/8/310954+4999030
1919/14/9/410954+41099530
2020/15/10/510955+5101010030

Saves
Tyranid HD grant 1 good save and 2 poor saves. The player chooses the good save.

Resistance Bonus
Applied to all three saves equally, like a Cloak of Resistance.

Empowered Strike
All the Tyranid's natural weapons count as Psionic weapons carrying this level of enchantment. They also count as Lawful, and will count as Good or Evil if the Tyranid in question matches those alignments. Unlike the VoP version, a Tyranid's Empowered Strike applies only to natural weapons and unarmed attacks.

Enhancement Limit
A Tyranid's Enhancement Limit marks the maximum level of special abilities that may be applied to a Tyranid's natural weapons and armor. This is a per-item limit (e.g. a Limit of 4 means +4 special abilities on the Natural Armor and +2 special abilities on all the natural weapons). Adding or altering an enchantment to the Tyranid's natural equipment takes 10 minutes concentration per point spent.

Energy Resistance
As the Tyranid gains points of Energy Resistance, she has to decide which of the five standard energy types it applies to. This decision is made as the Energy Resistance is aquired, and cannot be changed later. No one energy type can contain more than half (rounding up) or the total Energy Resistance. (The standard 75 point allocation is enough for ER15 against all five types, although you may prefer 38/37/0/0/0 or anything inbetween).

Base Speed
The per-limb bipedal movement speed of the Tyranid. Every limb assigned to walking adds this speed to the Tyranid's progress (remember said limbs cannot be used for anything other than movement in the same round). Each limb assigned to 'swim' or 'climb' duty adds one half of this speed to the Tyranid's swim or climb speed, respectively. Each winglet adds this speed to the Tyranid's fly speed, and each wing adds double this speed to the Tyranid's fly speed. A minimum of two limbs are required to use any given method of movement.

A Tyranid's flight starts at Clumsy Maneuverability. Each full wing assigned to flight improves this by one category, as does each pair of winglets.

A Tyranid with less than 2 limbs assigned to movement in a round (even one in which it remains still) counts as flatfooted (losing Dex bonuses to AC). A Tyranid with no limbs assigned to movement in a round counts as being Prone.

Additional Attribute Points
At every level the Tyranid gains 1 point of Racial Attribute Bonus to be spent on any of its attributes. No more than half (round up) of the total allocation may be spent on a single attribute. This is a racial attribute modifier, and stacks with both intrinsic bonuses and enchantment bonuses.

Caster/Manifester/Initiator Level
Tyranid HD stack with one casting/manifesting/initiating class to determine Caster Level and Spells Per Day (or equivalent). This does not apply to Spells/powers/etc known. It does not allow access to higher level spell slots than the Tyranid has earned access to via Class Levels. The only exceptions to this rule are Manifesting classes, which get full PP progression.


Limbs
A Tyranid is limited to 11 limbs, including the original 5.

During a Full Attack, a Tyranid may make an attack with each limb at its full BAB. She may also make up to three iterative attacks as per her BAB, but these can be performed only by a single limb or held weapon of the Tyranid's choice. During a standard attack action, a Tyranid may make a single attack with each limb not used for movement during that round, but takes an attack penalty of -2 on all attacks for each limb or weapon used beyond the first.

Limb Abilities
A Minor Limb can contain up to 2 points of limb abilities. A Major Limb can contain up to 4.

A limb may only posess one natural weapon.

CostUpgradeEffect
1WalkThe limb can be used for walking
1ClimbThe limb can be used for climbing
1SwimThe limb can be used for swimming
1WingletThe limb can be used for flight
2WingThe limb can be used for flight
1ThumbsThe end of the limb posesses an opposing digit which can be used for holding things. If the limb posesses no natural weapon, this allows it to be used as a normal hand.
1Minor Natural WeaponIn Combat, the limb is treated as a single simple light weapon wielded in one hand.
2Natural WeaponIn Combat, the limb is treated as a single simple or martial light or one-handed weapon, wielded in one hand.
3Excellent Natural WeaponIn Combat, the limb is treated as any one-handed, two-handed or double weapon wielded in two hands.
2Ranged Natural WeaponThe Limb is treated as though it were a simple or martial ranged weapon of a size appropriate to the Tyranid. It requires no ammunition.
3Ranged Energy WeaponThe limb is treated as though it provides a ranged touch attack energy ray, of the energy type for which the Tyranid has the highest energy resistance (player's choice in the case of a draw). Damage and range as per a simple or martial ranged weapon of appropriate size for the Tyranid.
1Oversize Natural WeaponThe limb deals damage as though it were one size category [tr]larger than the host. Can only be taken once per limb.
1ReachThe maximum reach of the limb increases by 5'



Errata
The Kensai
A Kensai's imbued weapons a)applies only to a single natural attack and any other limb with an identical natural attack, and b)does not stack with a Tyranid's Enhancement Limit. A Tyranid's natural weapon may be Imbued or Naturally Enhanced, at the Tyranid's discretion.

A Tyranid's Empowered Strike does provide the standard discount on Imbuing Natural Weapons.

Rapid Shot
Raw states Rapid Shot provides one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon, not *per* ranged weapon. Tyranids with multiple ranged attacks and the Rapid Shot feat gain one bonus attack and take the -2 penalty on all attacks in the same round.

Templates
Tyranids with a Tyranid LA of +3 or higher must be purestrain Tyranid (e.g. no Half-Something templates). LA+1 or +2 Tyranids may bear a single half-breed Template. LA+0 Tyranids are unrestricted.

ECL Advancements
With the following exceptions, all level-dependant benefits of being a Tyranid are based on Tyranid HD + Tyranid LA.

Casting levels
BAB
Saves
Skill Points


Zoanthrope PrC - thanks to NecroticPunch

Zoanthrope

http://th05.deviantart.net/fs24/PRE/f/2007/338/4/e/Blue_Zoantroph_by_tyrantwache.jpg

"... Prepare to die, mortal!"

- A Tyranid Zoanthrope Adept

A general description of whatever the class is!

BECOMING A Zoanthrope
How you would normally become a member of this prestige class.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Must be a Tyranid
Must have at least 5 HD levels as a Tyranid
Must have a ranged energy weapon

Class Skills
The Zoanthrope's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....Autohypnosis, Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge( Psionics ), Listen, Psicraft, Search, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Psionic Device
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: Same as Tyranid HD


[td]LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial
1st
+1
+0
+0
+2Psionics, Warp Blast 1d6, Decay
2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3Warp Blast 2d8, +2 Intelligence
3rd
+2
+1
+1
+3Psyker Apprentice
4th
+3
+1
+1
+4Psionic Advancement, Warp Blast 3d10, Levitate, Psionic
5th
+3
+1
+1
+4Psyker Lord
6th
+4
+2
+2
+5Warp Blast 4d12, +2 Intelligence, Telepathy
7th
+5
+2
+2
+5Psyker King, Psionic Advancement
8th
+5
+2
+2
+6Warp Blast 5d12, Psionic Treatise
9th
+6
+3
+3
+6+2 Intelligence, Psionic Advancement
10th
+7
+3
+3
+7Lord of All Psykers, Warp Blast 6d12, Psionic Treatise, Psionic Tyranid


Weapon Proficiencies: A Zoanthrope gains no new Weapon or Armor Proficiencies.

Psionics: A Zoanthrope gains power points per day, and powers known, at a rate equal to a Psion, of one level less than a Zoanthrope's level. Levels as a Zoanthrope are added to any levels as a Tyranid, and these combined, with a single level taken off, give you the Power Points per Day, Bonus Power Points, and Powers Known. ( Note: you do not need to take any level advancement to have Psionic Power. For example, an ECL 6, Tyranid 5/Zoanthrope 1, would Manifest as a Psion 5. )

Warp Blast: Warp Blast is a ranged energy touch attack, which replaces a Tyranid's standard ranged energy weapon. A warp blast deals force damage, and can be used 3 times per day, increasing by 2 at every class level past first. The standard damage for a Warp Blast is 1d6, at first level, which increases to 2d8 at second level, 3d10 at third level, and 4d12 at sixth level. Past sixth level, it increases the amount of dice rolled at eighth and tenth level.

Decay: At first level, a Zoanthrope's body starts to decay, causing all natural weapons to go down in damage, for example, a weapon that would deal 1d8 damage would be reduced to 1d6, and at every level, they get worse and worse. At fourth level, a Zoanthrope no longer has limbs, and it's only means of movement is levitating it's body forwards and backwards; up and down. At sixth level, a Zoanthrope's face falls off, and they become, essentially, a brain surrounded by a torso, and a chitinous shell.

Ability Enhancement: At second, sixth, and ninth level, a Zoanthrope's intelligence increases by 2.

Psyker Apprentice: At third level, a Psyker can choose a discipline to specialize in, out of the list given to a Psion at level one.

Psionic Advancement: At fourth, seventh, and ninth levels, a Zoanthrope gains power points equal to his Intelligence multiplied by half of his Intelligence Modifier.

Levitate, Psionic: At fourth level, a Zoanthrope gains a perpetual levitate effect on itself, which can be dispelled, but if it is dispelled, it will automatically reactivate in 5 turns. A Zoanthrope's levitation speed is equal to his Base Land speed.

Psyker Lord: At fifth level, a Zoanthrope's effective Manifester Level increases by one, but he does not gain power points or powers known due to this increase in Manifester Level.

Telepathy: At sixth level, a Zoanthrope gains the ability of Telepathy, which works in a way similar to how Mind Flayers communicate.

Psyker King: At seventh level, a Zoanthrope gains power points and powers known that would make him equal in those aspects when compared to a Psion of an equivalent Manifester Level. Or, in a simpler wording, it is as if a Zoanthrope leveled up twice on this level, and is now on par with other full progression manifesters.

Psionic Treatise: At eighth and tenth level, a Zoanthrope can create any DM-approved Power that he would like, without paying any sort of expense.

Lord of All Psykers: At tenth level, a Zoanthrope's effective Manifester Level increases by one, and makes it so that he is effectively one lever higher in the Zoanthrope class, for the interest of determining Power Points for day, Bonus Power Points per day, and Powers Known. This stacks with Psyker King.

Psionic Tyranid: At tenth level, a Zoanthrope learns how to change his body structure, and due to this, a Zoanthrope can, one per month, repick
all of his Tyranid abilities.

PLAYING A CLASS NAME
Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
Combat: A Zoanthrope has a myriad of different combat abilities, as well as utility powers and ways to shape the battle field, to call upon, which allows it to easily occupy many different positions in an army, or adventuring group.
Advancement: As they advance in power, a Tyranid might decide to go down the path of a Psion, to further increase his Psionic Powers, or he might decide to further his Tyranid abilities.
Resources: About as much as the Hive Mind allow him.

Zoanthrope IN THE WORLD
Those bugs... they ain't the kind that you smash with your boot. If'in you make 'em angry, you ain't gonna live m'ch longer.

Most Zoanthrope live in secret; they occupy little burrows under ground, following the orders of the Hive Mind. However, you can sometimes encounter a Zoanthrope wandering above ground, most likely doing some work for the Hive Mind.
Daily Life: On a normal day, a Zoanthrope will go about and do anything that the Hive Mind commands it to do, with little to no resistance. It can be said, however, that Zoanthropes do, in fact, make an attempt to be more powerful than his peers, so that he can become more powerful than all other ' Psykers ', their name for Psions.
Notables: Ura'lid is the only true notable of the Zoanthrope, due to her extreme power, rivaling even some of the great psions in their control over the power of the mind. In fact, Ura'lid has been known to be able to take out an entire army, with only a small squadran of troops to assist her.
Organizations: The Zoanthrope are members of the Hive Mind, and that is all they are members of.

NPC Reaction
Most people are afraid of Zoanthropes, because of their immense power, and, in some countries, Zoanthrope are considered threats, and are actively hunted. However, Zoanthrope have no care for these reactions, because they know that they can easily defeat those who would hunt them, and the people who could defeat them are too careful to hunt a powerful " Psyker. "

Zoanthrope IN THE GAME
Zoanthrope can fit the same role as a blaster, and as a off-caster.
Adaptation: All you would really need to do is introduce the Tyranid, which would be easy if you read their history.
Encounters: They would simply see them going about their own business, though sometimes this business could be illegal and seemingly evil, which might lead to encounters with a Zoanthrope.


The basic, LA+0 version of this beast is mechanically based on Drolyt's VOP Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428).

Still to come: Lots of arguing over balance, and some fluff. Or lots of fluff and some arguing. One or the other.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-20, 06:45 PM
So are you aiming for Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, Gargoyles, Carnifexes, etc.?

whoiam
2010-06-20, 06:48 PM
So are you aiming for Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, Gargoyles, Carnifexes, etc.?

Actually, the flexibility to hit as many of those as possible. I haven't added rules for adding Manifesting yet, so no Zoanthrope. I'll get around to that, though. Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Gargoyles and Carnifexes should be more-or-less possible as is.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-20, 06:52 PM
Actually, the flexibility to hit as many of those as possible. I haven't added rules for adding Manifesting yet, so no Zoanthrope. I'll get around to that, though. Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Gargoyles and Carnifexes should be more-or-less possible as is.

Well, apparently the uniqueness of Old One Eye was added into the main stock for Carnifexes from 3rd to 4th edition, so you'll have to add in a Regen option (don't remember seeing one). And I say Regen instead of Fast Healing since Carnifexes have survived Exterminatus and Old One Eye survived a plasma bolt through the skull.

hamishspence
2010-06-21, 02:50 AM
In 5th ed he became unique again- through having better regeneration than a normal carnifex can have, as well as minor leadership capabilities.

5th ed has quite a few unique tyranids.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-21, 04:14 AM
...this is highly awesome. Kudos.

Personally, i'd accept a +1 LA, have four wings, two ranged fiery touch attacks and two excellent quality scything talons. I like.

How exactly does 'Contributes to Flight Speed at normal pace' work? If I have one wing, does that mean I get my full base speed? So, four wings means triple speed?

Also, what's the background for tyranids in this world?

whoiam
2010-06-21, 04:22 AM
Okay, added fast healing (it was in my notes, just forgot to type it up) and an option to switch it for regeneration.

whoiam
2010-06-21, 04:33 AM
...this is highly awesome. Kudos.

Personally, i'd accept a +1 LA, have four wings, two ranged fiery touch attacks and two excellent quality scything talons. I like.

How exactly does 'Contributes to Flight Speed at normal pace' work? If I have one wing, does that mean I get my full base speed? So, four wings means triple speed?

Also, what's the background for tyranids in this world?

I'll point out that the LA penalties are cumulative - if you take four +1LA adjustments, you end up with an LA of +4. Just so noone gets the bright idea of taking all the +1 LA adjustments to double the HD-based progressions and only paying LA+1 for them;)

The background's really up to the Tyranid Player and/or DM of the game you use this in to work out. Different for each world, after all;)

As a couple of stock background, I'd offer either last survivor (the world fought off a Tyranid attack, and the PC is one of the surviving Tyranids) or advance scout (the world *will* be fighting off a Tyranid attack... just not yet). But, again, that part's up to you;)

As to the movement speeds, an explanation's going into the OP.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-21, 08:22 AM
Ahk, makes sense now. I shall consider using this, when and if I get a chance. XD

radmelon
2010-06-21, 10:41 AM
Is this part of a 40k campaign setting I should look at? This rocks!
<edit> The LA seems a bit low for the abilities though. +1 LA for regeneration? +2 would be better. Also, you may want o explain exactly how the LA buying works. Same with the limbs, I'm stumped. :smallconfused:

whoiam
2010-06-21, 10:45 AM
Uhh, no, it's not part of a campaign setting - although if someone is doing a 3.5 40K setting and wants to use my make-a-tyranid kit, they're welcome to.

It's more intended to allow a lone Tyranid or three to be played in standard D&D games. Or to show up as monsters.

Oslecamo
2010-06-21, 11:26 AM
Uhh, no, it's not part of a campaign setting - although if someone is doing a 3.5 40K setting and wants to use my make-a-tyranid kit, they're welcome to.


Ah this does brings back memories. My first homebrew here was actualy a space marine class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110149). I planned to do the orks and other 40K stuff next but wich since my space marine didn't atract much atention I lost motivation for that.

Anyway busy with studying to give a proper full review but couldn't resist commenting some stuff.


and when found in packs have a tendancy to devour entire galaxies.

Nitpick, but as far as we know they may have devoured one galaxy, and it took all their combined numbers. May have. The fluff also states that they could as well be fleeing from some really terrifying enemy.:smalltongue:



The basic, LA+0 version of this beast is mechanically based on Drolyt's VOP Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428).

So, they get full VoP fix benefits, and none of the drawbacks? What's stoping the tyranid player from buying equipment? Sure he has no great use for armor and he gets his own weapons but there's plenty of other expensive items that he could benefit from. Or did I miss some clause stating he can't use equipment?:smallconfused:

whoiam
2010-06-21, 11:33 AM
First up, they don't get full benefits (there's no bonus feats here, and no automatic fly speed).

Secondly, most of their bonuses don't stack with equipment (the Energy Resistance, say, or the Armor Bonus). The most obvious one that does is the attribute bonuses, which come in as racial and not enchantment.

The third being that, unlike VoP, a Tyranid's equipment isn't improved by being used by the Tyranid - all those bonuses apply only to the Tyranid's natural weapons and carapace.

But the greatest of the drawbacks is that VoP costs you equipment and a feat. Being a Tyranid costs you class levels - that table full of scaling bonuses only applies to Tyranid HD, not to class levels. If you start levelling up as a Wizard than you don't get improved armor and energy resistance, etc.

Which I think is ultimately a greater drawback than VoP gives you. Enough so that I'm tempted to put the bonus feats back in...

Edit: On rereading the OP, I notice that I haven't actually stated this in the writeup. Oh, well. It'll be there after dinner.:smalleek:

whoiam
2010-06-21, 12:06 PM
Is this part of a 40k campaign setting I should look at? This rocks!
<edit> The LA seems a bit low for the abilities though. +1 LA for regeneration? +2 would be better. Also, you may want o explain exactly how the LA buying works. Same with the limbs, I'm stumped. :smallconfused:

Add up the LA for each ability/limb/etc you want your Tyranid to have. Round up if you've got a fraction. That's your Tyranid's LA.

For the limbs:
A Minor Limb (+0.25 LA) gets 2 points to spend on the table of limb abilities.
A Major Limb (+0.5 LA) gets 4 points to spend on the table of limb abilities.
You get four limbs for free, and those four are all major.

You may have a point about the regeneration. I'll think about that.

Primal Fury
2010-06-21, 12:55 PM
Gender: Unlike most PC species, all playable Tyranids are sterile female drones (a la worker ants or bee drones). As playable Tyranids lack obvious sexual characteristics, this makes little practical difference to gameplay.

Why? You could just say that they're genderless, at least until they evolve into a queen-like thing... if that's even possible.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-21, 12:59 PM
SS does say that Regeneration is generally worth a +2 LA

Lix Lorn
2010-06-21, 01:00 PM
+1 LA
(+0.5 for two minor lumbs, +0.5 for a hit die boost)

d8 hit die
Reflex save
Main Resistance Fire

Limbs: Four major, two minor+ tail
Two minor, each with a wing.
Two major, each with a winglet and an excellent natural weapon
Two major, each with an oversized Ranged Energy attack.
Tail has a ranged weapon, treated as a heavy crossbow

Giving a base speed of Fly 90 (three steps above clumsy)
I will play that at some time.

whoiam
2010-06-21, 01:01 PM
Why? You could just say that they're genderless, at least until they evolve into a queen-like thing... if that's even possible.

As I said... because that's how actual colony insects do it. The non-breeding castes do technically have a gender - female - but they do not posess fully functional reproductive systems.

If I remember the fluff correctly, the fertile Tyranids are actually their spaceships, so I didn't think it necessary to include the rules to become one of those.


SS does say that Regeneration is generally worth a +2 LA

You make a convincing argument, and I am amending the list now.

Primal Fury
2010-06-21, 01:19 PM
As I said... because that's how actual colony insects do it. The non-breeding castes do technically have a gender - female - but they do not posess fully functional reproductive systems.
Seems a bit odd to apply real world logic to science fiction aliens from beyond the know universe... I think God just killed a kitten. :smalltongue:


If I remember the fluff correctly, the fertile Tyranids are actually their spaceships, so I didn't think it necessary to include the rules to become one of those.

Norn queens too. And apparently Tervigons as well, since they create swarms and swarms of Termagants. Sounds like a nice mutation for summoning stuff.

Fable Wright
2010-06-21, 02:17 PM
hmm... is it possible to make a power to hurl spore bombs? Creating(summoning) creatures several times per day/at will? That would be fun.

whoiam
2010-06-21, 04:50 PM
Right, then - let's see what you all think about my take on Spore Mines.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-21, 05:37 PM
I like them.
Interesting trivia: Hormagaunts, in the old fluff, reproduced sexually.

hamishspence
2010-06-21, 05:41 PM
5E tyranid codex-

"Furthermore, unlike most other tyranid bioforms, Hormagaunts are able to reproduce independently, and lay hundreds of eggs just below the surface of a planet before their short, hyperactive life is over. No sooner has one wave of the creatures been exterminated than a fresh swarm has hatched and grown to maturity, ready to ravage the planet in the previous generation's stead."

So- they kept it.

radmelon
2010-06-21, 05:47 PM
+1 LA
(+0.5 for two minor lumbs, +0.5 for a hit die boost)

d8 hit die
Reflex save
Main Resistance Fire

Limbs: Four major, two minor
Two minor, each with a wing.
Two major, each with a winglet and an excellent natural weapon
Two major, each with an oversized Ranged Energy attack.

Giving a base speed of Fly 90 (three steps above clumsy)
I will play that at some time.

Shouldn't some of the limbs be geared towards feet? You know, so you can walk?

whoiam
2010-06-21, 05:50 PM
Yes... that one I remember.

Not necessarily sexual reproduction, though. Those could be unfertilised eggs growing clones of the generation that laid them...;)

Also, to Radmelon: You know, she may not be planning to ever land...:smallcool:

jiriku
2010-06-21, 05:56 PM
SS does say that Regeneration is generally worth a +2 LA

SS says a lot of goofy things about level adjustment. You'll notice that most creatures in the MM have a lower LA than the formulas in SS would give them, and that most of the examples for estimating LA use a fighter or unoptimized barbarian as a baseline.


Regeneration with three bypass methods is worth +1.
+1 level for a size increase easily justifies applying the ability bonuses and penalties associated with a size increase. However, you should control that by requiring minimum HD totals before a tyranid can purchase huge, gargantuan, or colossal size (perhaps 8, 13, and 18).

whoiam
2010-06-21, 06:03 PM
Actually, the reason I cut the size bonuses to stats out of the size upgrades is because the Tyranid already gets a fairly generous bunch of stat bonuses. I didn't really think they needed more. If people think they should be added back in, though, I'm not too fussed either way.

As to the regeneration... Well, it can be bypassed by a magic/psionic and chaos-aligned weapon, by chaos-aligned magic, or by either of two types of energy. That is more loopholes than regeration usually has, I'll admit. That's another point I'm kinda wavering on.

jiriku
2010-06-21, 09:28 PM
I would put a better range on the spore launcher. Biovores could launch those things a heck of a long way. Perhaps add some sort of scatter mechanic too, are require the tyranid to target squares rather than creatures. I like how you allow the tyranid to assimilate poisons found in the environment to make new types of spore pods.

Some options to deal acid and/or poison with melee attacks would be thematically appropriate.

Needs some kind of rending claw that bypasses DR/adamantine and/or makes melee touch attacks (flavored as slicing effortlessly through armor, shield, and hide).

whoiam
2010-06-22, 03:47 AM
I should point out that a high enough HD Tyranid can always put 'Metalline' on their claws...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-22, 03:49 AM
Also bear in mind that it's a boost from Fast Healing to Regeneration, so that's not as big a jump as nothing to Regen.

And no, I didn't plan to land. (Grin)

whoiam
2010-06-22, 03:52 AM
On the other points: I was basing the spore launcher on Spore Cysts rather than full-size Biovores. Possibly I should add a more expensive Biovore mod that gives you more... and greater range?

I'll think about the melee acid and poison.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-22, 04:46 AM
On the other points: I was basing the spore launcher on Spore Cysts rather than full-size Biovores. Possibly I should add a more expensive Biovore mod that gives you more... and greater range?

I'll think about the melee acid and poison.

Nice work, whoiam, though one thing: Psionics. How do Tyranids use psionics, at their HD level or do they get bonus PP. I would love to play a Genestealer psyker... :smallbiggrin:

Dante

whoiam
2010-06-22, 04:50 AM
Now people start to see the reason my version numbering started at 0.1. I haven't addressed psionics and/or magic yet, and I *will*.

Just as soon as I've worked out how I'm going to handle it...

Cadian 9th
2010-06-22, 04:54 AM
Now people start to see the reason my version numbering started at 0.1. I haven't addressed psionics and/or magic yet, and I *will*.

Just as soon as I've worked out how I'm going to handle it...

Yeah, I Figured. Let me know, I'd love to help out!

Dante

whoiam
2010-06-23, 08:01 AM
Okay, let's see how this grabs you all:

Taking a Tyranid HD counts towards any one Casting, Manifesting, Initiating, Truenaming etc class of your choice for the purposes of caster/manifester/initiator etc level and spells, power points, maneuvers etc per day - but not for spells/maneuvers/etc known, nor to determine the highest level spell/power/whatever that can be learned or cast/manifested/whatever.

For the low, low cost of +1 LA, Tyranid HD will instead count as full progression for one caster/manifester/etc class.

For a further +2 LA, Tyranid HD will allow dual progression in two caster/manifester/whatever classes.

So to have your Tyranid HD acting as a superior form of Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge etc costs +3 LA, but to have it acting as a full advancement prestige class for a single casting class costs only +1.

What do you think?

Oslecamo
2010-06-23, 08:33 AM
What do you think?

Overpowered if not plainly broken.

Cleric 1/tyranid 19? Yes please. Clerics automatically know all the spells on their list so you just need one dip and get some monstruosity with full cleric casting and pretty much all of the nid goodies(including+9 to wis). Ditto for begiller and any other caster class that automatically knows all their spell list. Oh and you don't need to spend money on armor and defensive items, so go wild in metamagic rods, pearls of power and extra scrolls.

Wizards don't automatically know all spells on their list, but since they don't need to bother about buying rings of protection and cloacks of resistance anymore they can spend that money on scrolls to learn spells and still come ahead with +9 int, full Bab and everything else the nid class offers.

Really, the only limitation is that if you're taking nid levels you're not taking hax prc levels, but even then, caster1/nid4/hax prc 15 would still be an automatic choice, using the two nid levels for full BAB and an extra +2 to your casting stat and +2 to Con.

May I sugest the inverse method like I use in my class monsters, where monster levels count towards the highest spell level you can cast and caster level, but not for actual spell slots?

whoiam
2010-06-23, 08:45 AM
Well, technically that would be Cleric 1/Tyranid 18. If you took Cleric 1/Tyranid 19, then you'd have access to as many 0th and 1st level spells as a Cleric 20, and cast them at an effective caster level of 20, but you would have nothing from levels 2-9.

Now, the LA+1 cost of having full advancement in one xxx class means you'd spend half your advancement casting spells a level beneath those of your colleagues.

Whearas the LA+3 requirement of having dual advancement means for most of the run you'd be either one or two spell levels behind your colleagues.


Now, I'm not saying those aren't cheap - there's a reason I haven't added this to the OP yet (namely being that it just came off the top of my head and even I don't think it's ready yet) - but they're not quite free, either.

Oslecamo
2010-06-23, 09:26 AM
Well, technically that would be Cleric 1/Tyranid 18. If you took Cleric 1/Tyranid 19, then you'd have access to as many 0th and 1st level spells as a Cleric 20, and cast them at an effective caster level of 20, but you would have nothing from levels 2-9.

You're confusing magic with psionics. As a vancian caster all you need is a spell slot and a spell known of the apropriate level. If you have both you can cast the spell.

By your wording right now, I do get spell slots of level 2-9 as well whitout taking any LA at all. Then cleric gives me all spell known of the cleric list with a single level. In practise I get fullspelcasting whitout need of the LA.

If your intention is as you said, then you'll have to get a better wording on that, as right now it only stops abuse from the classes that learn new spells every level like the sorceror and psion.

jiriku
2010-06-23, 09:38 AM
I like them.
Interesting trivia: Hormagaunts, in the old fluff, reproduced sexually.

Which means you can ship them!

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 09:51 AM
Which means you can ship them!
You don't understand shipping, do you?

You think I didn't before?

whoiam
2010-06-23, 10:00 AM
You're confusing magic with psionics. As a vancian caster all you need is a spell slot and a spell known of the apropriate level. If you have both you can cast the spell.

By your wording right now, I do get spell slots of level 2-9 as well whitout taking any LA at all. Then cleric gives me all spell known of the cleric list with a single level. In practise I get fullspelcasting whitout need of the LA.

If your intention is as you said, then you'll have to get a better wording on that, as right now it only stops abuse from the classes that learn new spells every level like the sorceror and psion.

Now, technically *my* wording did hint in that direction ('nor to determine the highest level spell that can be learned or cast'), but it would not hurt to make this more explicite.


Taking a Tyranid HD counts towards any one Casting, Manifesting, Initiating, Truenaming etc class of your choice for the purposes of caster/manifester/initiator etc level and spells, power points, maneuvers etc per day - but not for spells/maneuvers/etc known, nor to determine the highest level spell/power/whatever that can be learned or cast/manifested/whatever.

Tyranid HD do not grant spell slots of a higher spell level than the highest the Tyranid qualifies for due to class levels, unless one of the LA options below are employed.

For the low, low cost of +1 LA, Tyranid HD will instead count as full progression for one caster/manifester/etc class.

For a further +2 LA, Tyranid HD will allow dual progression in two caster/manifester/whatever classes.

Volthawk
2010-06-23, 10:43 AM
Question: What are the class skills for the Tyranid?

whoiam
2010-06-23, 01:34 PM
Yup, I forgot those!

Okay... Autohypnosis, Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival, Tumble.

If you add the 'stalker' package, you can add Hide and Move Silently to that list.

If you pay LA to add a casting, manifesting etc class to the Tyranid advancement, then you can add the relevant Knowledge skill (Religion, Arcana, etc) and the relevant 'Craft' skill (Spellcraft, Psicraft, etc). If the class in question lacks one or both of these skills, you go without. If it has more than one skill in the equivalent roles, you can only take one of each (player's choice which).

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 03:04 PM
You should probably put them in the OP.
Also, just to mention, I really like the fluff on the character 'trix.

Draconi Redfir
2010-06-23, 03:10 PM
just a little stupid here, is this a PC race or a monster encounter? XD

whoiam
2010-06-23, 03:25 PM
You should probably put them in the OP.
Also, just to mention, I really like the fluff on the character 'trix.

When I get back to my own computer so I can update the master copy they will be.


just a little stupid here, is this a PC race or a monster encounter? XD

Intended as a PC race, but it'd work as both.

Considering the flexibility of the race, you could conceivably have an entire campaign based on fighting varieties of Tyranids;) Although that may get a touch boring unless done really well.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-23, 04:01 PM
How long until you come up with a way to make us able to play as Zoanthropes T.T

whoiam
2010-06-23, 04:13 PM
I think Zoanthropes are just a touch too specialised for me to add to the rules here, seeing as how they are effectively a floating brain with a little bit of body hanging off the bottom.

Maybe you'd care to come up with a Zoanthrope Prestige Class for any Tyranid that manifests psychic powers? Or maybe I'll do it myself when this lot's done.

Either way, it's not exactly at the top of my priorities list.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-23, 04:27 PM
I suppose that I could give it a shot :/

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 05:23 PM
How long until you come up with a way to make us able to play as Zoanthropes T.T
Take the manifesting option, take wings that Count As Floating tails, and homebrew a feat to turn your ranged touch attack into a force attack. And boom.
You have a Warp Blast.

Creative 'counts as' makes things easy.

Wait, is Force the fifth standard energy type?

whoiam
2010-06-23, 05:30 PM
Nope. Acid, Fire, Lightning, Cold, and Sonic.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 05:57 PM
Sonic! Yes. Thank you.
Would a feat to allow you to use Force as a resistance/energy ray be viable?

whoiam
2010-06-23, 07:12 PM
Okay, then. I've got two outstanding questions I'd like you to address before I move on to version 0.2:

First up, who thinks the 'regeneration' option should be LA +1, and who thinks +2?

Second up, the prices of having full progression for one or two casting classes - currently set at LA+1 and LA+3. Too low, Too High, or Just Right?

Lix Lorn
2010-06-24, 04:01 AM
I think +1 for regeneration, considering how many weaknesses, and that they also have fast healing-but question. If you're dealt lethal damage, can you still use Fast Healing to heal it? Or does Reneration replace Fast Healing?

Too low, I think.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-24, 04:36 AM
I think +1 for regeneration, considering how many weaknesses, and that they also have fast healing-but question. If you're dealt lethal damage, can you still use Fast Healing to heal it? Or does Reneration replace Fast Healing?

Too low, I think.

Regeneration makes all damage dealt to you non-lethal damage, then heals damage. That can be seriously awsome. /Dante

Lix Lorn
2010-06-24, 04:42 AM
Only Chaotic and magical attacks, attacks using one of the two energy types against which the Tyranid has the lowest resistance (player's choice if there is a draw, this choice cannot be altered once made) or spells or powers with the 'chaotic' descriptor bypass Regeneration
That's a LOT of weaknesses. Especially magic.

Also, I'm concerned about the energy rays. It doesn't seem right that you should be able to do damage with them through High Strength.

whoiam
2010-06-24, 04:55 AM
Remember, the listed Fast Healing speed for Tyranids gives them HD hp per hour, so it's no good for healing during battle.

So, then, how about +2 (Always one spell level behind) and +4 (always two spell levels behind)?

Anyway, let's make this easy. Here's my original proposed prices for each feature:

{table=head]Person|Regeneration|One Class Progression|Two Class Progression
whoiam|+1|+1|+3
[/table]

Just quote the table and add your own line. I'll take the average once I've got a few responses.

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 06:47 AM
Seems to me that at least the standard Tyranid is quite ready.

I mean this creature can own a lot in Gestalt. If you ever need a playtester count me in :smallbiggrin:.

If you put it this way you could have with 1 LA

A Tyranid with 3 minor limbs, 4 major limbs, D8 HD

Where you use two of the minor limbs to get flying. 2 major limbs will be weapons (In my case I would say Excellent Natural weapon+ Oversized) the tail for swimming and just for the fun opposable thumbs.
Two major limbs off course with walking, combined with natural weapon and Oversized.

I would like to play something like this.

whoiam
2010-06-24, 08:57 AM
I think my 'prototype' Tyranid, 'trix, would come out as...

Base Tyranid (LA+0)
2 Major Limbs (LA+1)
4 Minor Limbs (LA+1)
Stalker (LA+1)

With the limbs breaking down as:
Upper Arms and Legs (Major Limbs 1, 2, 3 and 4) - Walking (1 point), Climbing (1 point), Thumbs (1 point) and Minor Natural Weapon (1 point)
Lower Arms (Minor Limbs 1 and 2) - Walking (1 point), Thumbs (1 point)
Tail (Minor Limb 3) - Natural Weapon (2 points)
Scythe-blade Claws (Major Limbs 5 and 6) - Excellent Natural Weapon (3 points), Oversize Natural Weapon (1 point)
Mandibles (Minor Limbs 4 and 5) - Natural Weapon (2 points)

So she's maxxed out on Limbs, but nowhere near as powerful as a Tyranid *could* be. Which is appropriate, because she's supposed to be most closely related to Lictors.

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 09:11 AM
I think my 'prototype' Tyranid, 'trix, would come out as...

Base Tyranid (LA+0)
2 Major Limbs (LA+1)
4 Minor Limbs (LA+1)
Stalker (LA+1)

With the limbs breaking down as:
Upper Arms and Legs (Major Limbs 1, 2, 3 and 4) - Walking (1 point), Climbing (1 point), Thumbs (1 point) and Minor Natural Weapon (1 point)
Lower Arms (Minor Limbs 1 and 2) - Walking (1 point), Thumbs (1 point)
Tail (Minor Limb 3) - Natural Weapon (2 points)
Scythe-blade Claws (Major Limbs 5 and 6) - Excellent Natural Weapon (3 points), Oversize Natural Weapon (1 point)
Mandibles (Minor Limbs 4 and 5) - Natural Weapon (2 points)

So she's maxxed out on Limbs, but nowhere near as powerful as a Tyranid *could* be. Which is appropriate, because she's supposed to be most closely related to Lictors.

Still if we would be both ECL 5 who would win of us :smallbiggrin:.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 09:19 AM
Zoanthrope

http://th05.deviantart.net/fs24/PRE/f/2007/338/4/e/Blue_Zoantroph_by_tyrantwache.jpg

"... Prepare to die, mortal!"

- A Tyranid Zoanthrope Adept

A general description of whatever the class is!

BECOMING A Zoanthrope
How you would normally become a member of this prestige class.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Must be a Tyranid
Must have at least 5 HD levels as a Tyranid
Must have a ranged energy weapon

Class Skills
The Zoanthrope's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....Autohypnosis, Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge( Psionics ), Listen, Psicraft, Search, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Psionic Device
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: Same as Tyranid HD

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Psionics, Warp Blast 1d6, Decay

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Warp Blast 2d8, +2 Intelligence

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Psyker Apprentice

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Psionic Advancement, Warp Blast 3d10, Levitate, Psionic

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Psyker Lord

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Warp Blast 4d12, +2 Intelligence, Telepathy

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Psyker King, Psionic Advancement

8th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+6|Warp Blast 5d12, Psionic Treatise

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+6|+2 Intelligence, Psionic Advancement

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+7|Lord of All Psykers, Warp Blast 6d12, Psionic Treatise, Psionic Tyranid[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: A Zoanthrope gains no new Weapon or Armor Proficiencies.

Psionics: A Zoanthrope gains power points per day, and powers known, at a rate equal to a Psion, of one level less than a Zoanthrope's level. Levels as a Zoanthrope are added to any levels as a Tyranid, and these combined, with a single level taken off, give you the Power Points per Day, Bonus Power Points, and Powers Known. ( Note: you do not need to take any level advancement to have Psionic Power. For example, an ECL 6, Tyranid 5/Zoanthrope 1, would Manifest as a Psion 5. )

Warp Blast: Warp Blast is a ranged energy touch attack, which replaces a Tyranid's standard ranged energy weapon. A warp blast deals force damage, and can be used 3 times per day, increasing by 2 at every class level past first. The standard damage for a Warp Blast is 1d6, at first level, which increases to 2d8 at second level, 3d10 at third level, and 4d12 at sixth level. Past sixth level, it increases the amount of dice rolled at eighth and tenth level.

Decay: At first level, a Zoanthrope's body starts to decay, causing all natural weapons to go down in damage, for example, a weapon that would deal 1d8 damage would be reduced to 1d6, and at every level, they get worse and worse. At fourth level, a Zoanthrope no longer has limbs, and it's only means of movement is levitating it's body forwards and backwards; up and down. At sixth level, a Zoanthrope's face falls off, and they become, essentially, a brain surrounded by a torso, and a chitinous shell.

Ability Enhancement: At second, sixth, and ninth level, a Zoanthrope's intelligence increases by 2.

Psyker Apprentice: At third level, a Psyker can choose a discipline to specialize in, out of the list given to a Psion at level one.

Psionic Advancement: At fourth, seventh, and ninth levels, a Zoanthrope gains power points equal to his Intelligence multiplied by half of his Intelligence Modifier.

Levitate, Psionic: At fourth level, a Zoanthrope gains a perpetual levitate effect on itself, which can be dispelled, but if it is dispelled, it will automatically reactivate in 5 turns. A Zoanthrope's levitation speed is equal to his Base Land speed.

Psyker Lord: At fifth level, a Zoanthrope's effective Manifester Level increases by one, but he does not gain power points or powers known due to this increase in Manifester Level.

Telepathy: At sixth level, a Zoanthrope gains the ability of Telepathy, which works in a way similar to how Mind Flayers communicate.

Psyker King: At seventh level, a Zoanthrope gains power points and powers known that would make him equal in those aspects when compared to a Psion of an equivalent Manifester Level. Or, in a simpler wording, it is as if a Zoanthrope leveled up twice on this level, and is now on par with other full progression manifesters.

Psionic Treatise: At eighth and tenth level, a Zoanthrope can create any DM-approved Power that he would like, without paying any sort of expense.

Lord of All Psykers: At tenth level, a Zoanthrope's effective Manifester Level increases by one, and makes it so that he is effectively one lever higher in the Zoanthrope class, for the interest of determining Power Points for day, Bonus Power Points per day, and Powers Known. This stacks with Psyker King.

Psionic Tyranid: At tenth level, a Zoanthrope learns how to change his body structure, and due to this, a Zoanthrope can, one per month, repick
all of his Tyranid abilities.

PLAYING A CLASS NAME
Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
Combat: A Zoanthrope has a myriad of different combat abilities, as well as utility powers and ways to shape the battle field, to call upon, which allows it to easily occupy many different positions in an army, or adventuring group.
Advancement: As they advance in power, a Tyranid might decide to go down the path of a Psion, to further increase his Psionic Powers, or he might decide to further his Tyranid abilities.
Resources: About as much as the Hive Mind allow him.

Zoanthrope IN THE WORLD
Those bugs... they ain't the kind that you smash with your boot. If'in you make 'em angry, you ain't gonna live m'ch longer.

Most Zoanthrope live in secret; they occupy little burrows under ground, following the orders of the Hive Mind. However, you can sometimes encounter a Zoanthrope wandering above ground, most likely doing some work for the Hive Mind.
Daily Life: On a normal day, a Zoanthrope will go about and do anything that the Hive Mind commands it to do, with little to no resistance. It can be said, however, that Zoanthropes do, in fact, make an attempt to be more powerful than his peers, so that he can become more powerful than all other ' Psykers ', their name for Psions.
Notables: Ura'lid is the only true notable of the Zoanthrope, due to her extreme power, rivaling even some of the great psions in their control over the power of the mind. In fact, Ura'lid has been known to be able to take out an entire army, with only a small squadran of troops to assist her.
Organizations: The Zoanthrope are members of the Hive Mind, and that is all they are members of.

NPC Reaction
Most people are afraid of Zoanthropes, because of their immense power, and, in some countries, Zoanthrope are considered threats, and are actively hunted. However, Zoanthrope have no care for these reactions, because they know that they can easily defeat those who would hunt them, and the people who could defeat them are too careful to hunt a powerful " Psyker. "

Zoanthrope IN THE GAME
Zoanthrope can fit the same role as a blaster, and as a off-caster.
Adaptation: All you would really need to do is introduce the Tyranid, which would be easy if you read their history.
Encounters: They would simply see them going about their own business, though sometimes this business could be illegal and seemingly evil, which might lead to encounters with a Zoanthrope.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 09:23 AM
Sorry for double post but...

Eek, this is gonna take me a while to finish :/

Lix Lorn
2010-06-24, 10:15 AM
{table=head]Person|Regeneration|One Class Progression|Two Class Progression
whoiam|+1|+1|+3
Lix Lorn|+1|+2|+4
[/table]
I've been doing a character sheet for an ECL 10 tyranid. I may have ignored the lawful restriction, but I gave a reason and everything, so whoop.
Just finishing appearance and I'll give a link.

Edit:...and I totally forgot I'd just posted.
What I said was: Format Error: press Enter before skill points. :smallwink:
Oh, and, Knowledge (psionics)?

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 10:19 AM
Anybody else wanna help me out with this XD I'm not that good at describing what the abilities do...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-24, 11:12 AM
Finished ECL10 Character Sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=218391)!

Hmm. Not sure. Why don't you try, and then we can fix it?

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 11:35 AM
By the way, you know that natural weapons only get one attack?

whoiam
2010-06-24, 11:45 AM
From the limbs section on the first page:


During a Full Attack, a Tyranid may make an attack with each limb at its full BAB, plus up to three reduced BAB iterative attacks with a limb (or weapon held in a limb) of the Tyranid's choice. During a standard attack action, a Tyranid may make a single attack with each limb not used for movement during that round, but takes an attack penalty of -1 on all attacks for each limb used beyond the first.

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 11:46 AM
That creates off course some more possibilities. Sorry for the former comment in that case.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-24, 12:32 PM
Does anyone know how much money an ECL of 10 gets you?

Volthawk
2010-06-24, 12:33 PM
Does anyone know how much money an ECL of 10 gets you?

49 thousand.

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 12:33 PM
Does anyone know how much money an ECL of 10 gets you?

WBL is stated in DMG page 135. That's all I know.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 12:55 PM
Alright, I added class abilities, I am now requesting, PEACH.

whoiam
2010-06-24, 12:58 PM
Alright, I added class abilities, I am now requesting, PEACH.

This being my first public homebrew and all... mind telling me what PEACH actually stands for?

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 01:00 PM
This is my first homebrew ever XD. But it stands for Please Evaluate and Critique Honestly

whoiam
2010-06-24, 01:20 PM
Well, while I wait for tonight's sport to finish before I settle down to the serious reading, two things:

Firstly Necrotic and Duskranger need to vote on the LA costs;)

Secondly, Lix - why NG? I would have used an almost identical line to justify the jump from the typical LN up to LG. I honestly don't see why a commitment to put Lirian's friends above any implied or extant 'Laws of Combat' counts as a non-lawful act. Lawful alignments don't have to blindly obey everything just because it's convention or dictated by authority...

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 01:24 PM
{table=head]Person|Regeneration|One Class Progression|Two Class Progression
whoiam|+1|+1|+3
Lix Lorn|+1|+2|+3
Duskranger|+1|+3|+5
[/table]

The reason for the high LA is the fact that any other way you can bump up the casting. And casting is overpowered. The regeneration on the other hand has multiple weaknesses and therefore is justified with 'only' la +1

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 01:26 PM
I give my stamp of approval on this.


Y
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Lix Lorn
2010-06-24, 01:38 PM
Secondly, Lix - why NG? I would have used an almost identical line to justify the jump from the typical LN up to LG. I honestly don't see why a commitment to put Lirian's friends above any implied or extant 'Laws of Combat' counts as a non-lawful act. Lawful alignments don't have to blindly obey everything just because it's convention or dictated by authority...
Essentially? I don't like playing Lawful characters. Also, I didn;t put it in, but the bit about acting in the m

Also, Thanks Volthawk!

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 01:47 PM
No one has reviewed the PrC I just made. I'm so very sad now.

whoiam
2010-06-24, 01:51 PM
No one has reviewed the PrC I just made. I'm so very sad now.

It's coming. I'm waiting for the Vuvuzela noise from downstairs to die down before I do any heavy reading...

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 02:21 PM
Go Holland. 1-0 for us :smallbiggrin:.

Sorry for being sidetracked. The PrC seems okay, but since I am totally unknowledgable about psionics I can only say that some abilities seem to be a little at the strong side.

I do enjoy the Psionic Tyranid ability though, but to make it a capstone ability. Not as much.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 02:25 PM
I couldn't really come up with anything, and Lord of all Psyker is the cap stone ability - it makes it so that you are always better than a Psion of the same level.

Duskranger
2010-06-24, 02:26 PM
As far as I know psionics are almost as powerfull as magic so it seems to me it's a bit too much. For the same reason I put the LA for a full caster at minimum +5

whoiam
2010-06-24, 02:50 PM
Actually, you won't always be superior to a Psion - you'll be carrying either some LA or some Tyranid HD that don't advance Psion Powers Known.

For the Psionic Tyranid ability, remember to state that the new selection of Tyranid Features should hold the same LA as the original set did. An ability that lets you change LA monthly would be... complicated.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 02:58 PM
Read the end of psionics - it stacks with Tyranid for the purpose of determining stuff. And yeah, I sould go do that. And I would like everyone to wait it like this, and then put your critique.

Flavor /20

Balance /20

Impressiveness /20

Chance to win against a wizard /20

Awesomeness /20

whoiam
2010-06-24, 03:23 PM
The point was that a LA+0 Tyranid will advance power points, but not powers known or highest level powers known. A LA+1/2 Tyranid can, but holds a LA. So one way or another you're going to be behind.

If you meant that that ability duplicates something a Tyranid would normally be paying LA for without costing LA... then I'd say you may want to think again about that one. If the species is being balanced by LA, then it's not a great idea to start providing loopholes to avoid the LA.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 03:25 PM
I wanted to make it that way because it is one of the major reasons to even go through the class.

whoiam
2010-06-24, 04:12 PM
Flavor -/20
The 'General Description of the class' is still missing.
I'd also suggest removing references to Kerrigan from the class fluff. For two reasons: A)People may recognise she's from Starcraft instead of Warhammer 40K, and B)Referring to specific individuals does tend to tie a class to a specific setting that includes said individual. It's like the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC from CDiv. It has to include footnotes reminding people it doesn't have to be used for worshippers of Pelor;)

Balance 16/20
I was going to savage the class on this point, but then I remembered that the more powerful abilities require you to sacrifice 10 Tyranid HD to get it - that's half the potential thickness of the carapace, half the energy resistance, half the resistance bonus on saves, half the enchantment bonus on the limbs... Plus you technically get greater ability bonuses by sticking with Tyranid HD (+10 against +6, but only half of the ten can go into Int).

I'm not sure how well I'd balance it against WoTC Material in general, but it's not so terribly overpowered compared to the 'stock' Tyranid.

Impressiveness 10/20
I'm not entirely sure what you want me to rate in here. I'm giving it moderate marks - it has some nice mechanical effects, but the way it's written, a Zoanthrope will typically be indistinguishable from a regular Tyranid (save for the limited uses Force attack).

Personally, I'd find a closer clone of the 3rd/4th ed Zoanthrope more impressive - where the limbs slowly wither as you advance through the class, but your Force attack improves and you gain an eerie, silent float speed and some form of permanent conversational telepathy. You know... something that really *feels* unique compared to the other Tyranids, even if you aren't looking at the numbers on the character sheet.

Chance to win against a wizard 9/20
As I recall, the 'official' rating is that a Psion's two great weaknesses versus a Wizard are in the fact that they don't cast spells (most suppliments bring cool new arcane spells, but few add extra powers), and the inflexibility caused by their limited powers list. I don't really see this PrC doing anything to redress those limits - except for the two free researched powers the Zoanthrope gets. With the Int bonus from the class and the Tyranid HD required to qualify for it, I would say you will probably go into such a fight with the higher Int (and correspondingly, the higher DCs and the most spellcasting stamina), but it's probably still not enough to give the Psion victory more than 50% of the time.

Awesomeness 7/20
Not sure where Awesomeness, Chance to win against a Wizard and Impressiveness are actually different from one another... Anyway, I suppose the one part that's fairly awsome is if you were playing a LA+3 or LA+4 Tyranid, and every month or so you could emerge an entirely new being...

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 04:30 PM
Thank you. I'll get to work on changing stuff around, and have Fluff up in a few days. I'm also working on the way that the limbs are effected, and stuff like that. I'll say when It's done.

Edit: And my god, man, you DON'T need to spend level adjustment to get this. I specifically worded it so that you would understand. I'll work on making it easier to read right now.

whoiam
2010-06-24, 04:38 PM
I didn't say you would - this time. Just pointed out that it means 10 levels of Tyranid that you can't take because you're taking Zoanthrope instead.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 04:53 PM
Updated ~~~~

Oslecamo
2010-06-24, 05:00 PM
Updated ~~~~

You still have the Kerrigan reference in there, wich is particularly out of place as Kerrigan is the queen of blades. When she was zergified she didn't just gain enanched pshychic powers, she got big claws to tear apart things in melee.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 05:02 PM
Fixed n' stuff ~~~

Duskranger
2010-06-25, 03:57 AM
The Warp Blast is a bit too much according to me. I would say make the increase in lvls: 1-3-6-9 instead of what you have now.

And put down the speed they can float in the list. Or put down if it's the same speed as in the Tyranid speed list.

That's my comment. And that's just how my cookie crumbles :smallbiggrin:

Cadian 9th
2010-06-25, 04:15 AM
That's my comment. And that's just how my cookie crumbles :smallbiggrin:

Woah, Dusk, you know 40k as well?

Anyway, congrats on the zoanthrope. I really like this system, though I vote

Flavor 17/20

Balance 14/20

Impressiveness 16/20

Chance to win against a wizard 12/20

Awesomeness 16/20

Dante

Duskranger
2010-06-25, 04:18 AM
Woah, Dusk, you know 40k as well?

Anyway, congrats on the zoanthrope. I really like this system, though I vote

Flavor 17/20

Balance 14/20

Impressiveness 16/20

Chance to win against a wizard 12/20

Awesomeness 16/20

Dante

Only the things that are available with the pc-games of DoW. I really enjoy the spacemarines though. I think the balance in this PrC is still a little bit wonky though.

I would give it an overall 12/20

Flavor 17/20

Balance 5/20

Impressiveness 8/20

Chance to win against a wizard 10/20

Awesomeness 10/20

Cadian 9th
2010-06-25, 04:34 AM
@Dusk, cool. Space Marines, tsk. Chaos does everything they do but is better in combat :smallbiggrin: But guard are the best.

Now that I take another look, I have to say the Power Point bonuses and manifester level bonuses should be simplified to +1 level of existing psion class etc.

Dante

Lix Lorn
2010-06-25, 04:38 AM
The thing that makes this seem a bit overpowered is that you are, in your own words 'a better manifester than a psion'. Bearing in mind, you also get various cool abilities.

What I'd do, is don't make all Tyranid levels count towards power points/powers known etc. Make all FUTURE levels.
So, Tyranid 5/Zoanthrope 10 is an eleventh level manifester, with a manifester level of 16 (because of the Tyranid HD rules). if you then take five more levels of Tyranid, you are a sixteenth level manifester with a manifeter level of 21.

whoiam
2010-06-25, 08:29 AM
Okay, updated the OP to 0.2.

Using LA+1 for Regeneration, +2 for HD advancing a single caster class, +4 for HD advancing two caster classes.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-25, 08:49 AM
For the record: This means nids with dual progression cannot get 9th levels before epic levels.
Unless there's LA buyoff...

whoiam
2010-06-25, 09:05 AM
I don't see why you're complaining - you voted for the +4LA on that feature!:p

NecroticPunch
2010-06-25, 10:46 AM
Alright, I put a speed down on the Zoanthrope. But I am going to keep the warp blast as is; though I might lower it from d12s to d10s

Lix Lorn
2010-06-25, 12:21 PM
I wasn't complaining, just pointing it out so people knew.

Also, for the Zoanthrope:

Decay: At first level, a Zoanthrope's body starts to decay, causing all natural weapons to go down in damage, for example, a weapon that would deal 1d8 damage would be reduced to 1d6, and at every level, they get worse and worse. At fourth level, a Zoanthrope no longer has limbs, and it's only means of movement is levitating it's body forwards and backwards; up and down. At sixth level, a Zoanthrope's face falls off, and they become, essentially, a brain surrounded by a torso, and a chitinous shell.

Psionic Tyranid: At tenth level, a Zoanthrope learns how to change his body structure, and due to this, a Zoanthrope can, one per month, repick
all of his Tyranid abilities.
...? How do they work together?

Volthawk
2010-06-25, 02:08 PM
The natural weapons say that they are treated as whatever weapon you pick. Does that extend to item abilities like tripping, if you pick a halberd or something like that?

whoiam
2010-06-25, 02:17 PM
Tripping, yes, dropping the weapon to prevent a counter-trip, no.

Reach is also a no. If you want it, you pay for it.

Volthawk
2010-06-25, 02:18 PM
Tripping, yes, dropping the weapon to prevent a counter-trip, no.

Reach is also a no. If you want it, you pay for it.

Alright. For ranged weapons, what about Composite bows Str to damage?

Just seeing what exactly is allowed.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-25, 07:35 PM
Hm... I suppose that the decay will cause you to lose your limbs in... 3 days. So, basically you get alot better, then you're the same. I'll go add it tomorrow.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 02:43 AM
Exotic weapon?

Say, Elver Courtblade for the high crit + damage.

whoiam
2010-06-26, 03:16 AM
Composite Bows Str to Damage is a yes.

Elven Courtblade is also a yes, assuming whichever splatbook it's from is permitted in your game of choice.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 04:04 AM
But not for the material right? So, no adamantine-esque natural weapons to bypass DR/hardness.

Maybe you can add a Limb abilities to include that.

EDIT: BTW, you ARE proficient with your natural attacks, even if they emulate a weapon you don't have proficiency for, right?

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 04:38 AM
I know that you "start with" 4 major limbs and and 1 minor limb, but I can't find anything in the OP that explains the mechanical difference between a major and minor limb. Also, how many points per limb do you get to spend on the "limb" table?

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 04:39 AM
I know that you "start with" 4 major limbs and and 1 minor limb, but I can't find anything in the OP that explains the mechanical difference between a major and minor limb. Also, how many points per limb do you get to spend on the "limb" table?

Down a little




For the limbs:
A Minor Limb (+0.25 LA) gets 2 points to spend on the table of limb abilities.
A Major Limb (+0.5 LA) gets 4 points to spend on the table of limb abilities.
You get four limbs for free, and those four are all major.

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 04:39 AM
I know that you "start with" 4 major limbs and and 1 minor limb, but I can't find anything in the OP that explains the mechanical difference between a major and minor limb. Also, how many points per limb do you get to spend on the "limb" table?

Well, it was there before, but it used to say 4 points for Major Limbs, 2 for Minor Limbs.

whoiam
2010-06-26, 04:59 AM
That information was in the OP before - it's back in there now. Thanks for the reminder!

So, to confirm - the only difference between Major and Minor limbs is the number of points you can spend on the Limb Abilities table - 4 for major, 2 for minor.

Duskranger
2010-06-26, 05:07 AM
I do agree with that. I like the way this class is shaping up. It makes for a lot of different creatures while still using the same class.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 05:14 AM
But not for the material right? So, no adamantine-esque natural weapons to bypass DR/hardness.

Maybe you can add a Limb abilities to include that.

EDIT: BTW, you ARE proficient with your natural attacks, even if they emulate a weapon you don't have proficiency for, right?

Reasking since, it seems to be missed.

Also, how does treated as double weapon wield in 2 hands? You attack twice with the single limb? (Double weapons in 2 hands does this)

whoiam
2010-06-26, 05:17 AM
Once you get to a high enough level, you can add the 'metalline' property to your natural weapons. I may made that one something you can add early for limb points instead... But currently, wait and add the enchantment.


{table]3|Excellent Natural Weapon|In Combat, the limb is treated as any one-handed, two-handed or double weapon wielded in two hands.[/table]

Seems simple enough, yes?

Duskranger
2010-06-26, 05:27 AM
One strange thing you write about the carapace, which is +2 AC and +1 NA. But in the list there's standing that a lvl 1 Tyranid gets +4 armor, +2 deflection and +2 NA?

What do you count in. In my eyes I would say delete the NA+ Armor out of that and maybe keep the deflection. But let the Carapace keep stronger according to the same armor+NA growing that is allready in the table.

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 05:30 AM
One strange thing you write about the carapace, which is +2 AC and +1 NA. But in the list there's standing that a lvl 1 Tyranid gets +4 armor, +2 deflection and +2 NA?

What do you count in. In my eyes I would say delete the NA+ Armor out of that and maybe keep the deflection. But let the Carapace keep stronger according to the same armor+NA growing that is allready in the table.

I think it works like this:

If you are a Tyranid, but don't take any Tyranid HD, and go to another class straight away, you get the base carapace.

If you do take Tryanid HD, you get armour by the table.

whoiam
2010-06-26, 05:30 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at.

There's a Carapace entry in the base, LA+0, RHD 0 Tyranid entry. If you make a Tyranid with nothing but class levels, that's what you get.

If you advance the Tyranid by HD (or partially by HD), then you get the relevent values from the advancement by HD table.

Edit: Volthawk, you Ninja! You win this time!

Duskranger
2010-06-26, 05:38 AM
Thanks for the explanation. And now I get it. I still ask myself what would happen if I would Gestalt the tyranid with another class, taking the VoP. With as Gestalt class I am than thinking about Totemist. Or at least something that gives you a lot of attacks. Spirit Lion barbarian could also be taken (or at least one level for pounce).

I mean this class is allready good for almost everything and something like that makes is not only better, but you could do it and not spend LA on getting a bigger HD:smallbiggrin:

whoiam
2010-06-26, 05:46 AM
Well, lots of the Tyranid HD/VoP stuff overlaps instead of stacking, so it's not as awesome a combo as you may think.

Of course, there are good gestalt builds for Tyranid - pay the LA to double the stat advancement, for instance, and put some kind of full caster up the other side;) Or, as I'm doing in the test game, jack up the natural weapons count and get yourself some sneak attack.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 05:57 AM
I'm planning a nearly similiar build. Lots of Natural attacks through +limb LA, but focus on Str and just whack stuff. Totemist to buff the natural weapons.

BTW, I'm actually not very sure of the Nat. Weapons... Is it selected on creation of limb, and you can't change the weapon right?

whoiam
2010-06-26, 05:59 AM
This is correct.

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 06:00 AM
The Energy Weapon says that if your resistances are equal, you choose. Does that mean every time you can choose, so if you resist all 5 energy types equally, you can have an attack for every energy type?

whoiam
2010-06-26, 06:03 AM
If you have five energy weapon attacks, yes. My build actually has four, so Cold missed out:(

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 06:06 AM
If you have five energy weapon attacks, yes. My build actually has four, so Cold missed out:(

My guy is basically limbed like this:

10 Major Limbs
1 Minor Limb

Minor Limb: Reach, Thumbs
4 Major Limbs: Wing, Walk, Swim
5 Major Limbs: Energy Weapon, Oversized Weapon
1 Major Limb: Reach, Excellent Natural Weapon

whoiam
2010-06-26, 06:08 AM
Well, mine minors in skillmonkey so I had to save a few limb points for thumbs.

Duskranger
2010-06-26, 06:19 AM
I take the VoP not for the armor and so. So I will take it for the Stat-Enhancements and stuff. And actually since the VoP-fix goes about ECL not HD you do get more bonuses even if you have LA. The only thing you miss is your HD, but with enough Con no one notices that.

I think my build would have a maximum of 2 LA though. Two extra minor limbs with wings LA+ 0,5), one increasement of the HD(+0,5 LA) and 1 times the double attribute (+1 LA)

Four major Limbs with excellent natural weapons, and walk off course.

The tail I do not know about though.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 08:33 AM
If I was to Gestalt, I think my character would be a rogue. Or possibly a Bard. Probably Rogue.

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 08:59 AM
For Improved Natural Attack, do the energy weapons count as the same natural form, even if they have different elements?

Dead_Jester
2010-06-26, 09:02 AM
If I was to Gestalt, I think my character would be a rogue. Or possibly a Bard. Probably Rogue.

How about a Phrenic/Magic in the Blood/Whatever template you like that gives Sla's on the other side for a Psychic Tyranid (go go 2nd ed Zoanthrope)? Actually, that sounds like a good idea ...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 09:38 AM
How about a Phrenic/Magic in the Blood/Whatever template you like that gives Sla's on the other side for a Psychic Tyranid (go go 2nd ed Zoanthrope)? Actually, that sounds like a good idea ...
I... don't think I understood a single word of that. XD

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 09:40 AM
I... don't think I understood a single word of that. XD

On the other side, apply a template that lets you use SLAs. Like Phrenic, which fits with Psionics.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 10:08 AM
Oooh.
I think my lack of any sourcebooks other than RotD is shining through...

Volthawk
2010-06-26, 10:10 AM
Oooh.
I think my lack of any sourcebooks other than RotD is shining through...

Phrenic is part of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm):smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 10:32 AM
...
I knew that. (Shifty eyes)

Dead_Jester
2010-06-26, 10:35 AM
I just proposed that because in Gestalt, it would be both a very flavorfull and resonably powerfull combo. Like volthawk said, Phrenic is in the SRD, and Magic in the Blood essentially let's you use your Sla's more often and improves them.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 10:45 AM
Problem is, that gives me MORE LA. +3, total.
It'd be easier to just taken levels in Wilder on the other side. Would give me more skill points too, allowing me to drop the Int down...

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 10:52 AM
Hm... I think that I'm gonna do some weird crap. If I made a character it would look like this.

10 major limbs from a ton of LA


All of them on ranged energy attacks ^.^

2 of everything. Artillery god.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 11:19 AM
Hm... I think that I'm gonna do some weird crap. If I made a character it would look like this.

10 major limbs from a ton of LA


All of them on ranged energy attacks ^.^

2 of everything. Artillery god.
Lol. And walk on your tail?

whoiam
2010-06-26, 11:30 AM
Pfft, no. That's an artillery piece. All it has to do is have a servant hired to drag it around;)

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 11:39 AM
Heh. Awesome. So, ten oversized energy composite bows... Take rapid shot at first chance... put your bonuses alternately into Strength and Dexterity... two Winglets on your tail for a slow, clumsy flight... (Grin)

whoiam
2010-06-26, 11:47 AM
I should point out that that would just mean your tail was a regular wing...

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 11:49 AM
Rawrzars?!

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 11:50 AM
I should point out that that would just mean your tail was a regular wing...
But you need two wings to fly.
Or two winglets.
I think.

Nope, two limbs. Loophole closed, good work. XD

whoiam
2010-06-26, 11:57 AM
You need two limbs assigned to a mode of movement in order to use it. One limb allows you to hold position, but you count as being flatfooted. You try fighting while balanced on one leg;) No limbs and you're just lying about prone. Or you're a Zoanthrope floating.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 11:59 AM
In that case, make the tail a Spear for last resort, and give two of the guns winglets, but make them not oversized. The sonic ones, cause sonic is always weaker. XD

Or the fire ones, cause fire is so commonly resisted, and thus less useful...

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 12:01 PM
I just found a way to become uber epic as a Zoanthrope. If you are a level 10 Zoanthrope with 5 LA for epicacious energy weapons, you can spend it all on ranged energy weapons, and be dealing, like, friggin' 20d6

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 01:12 PM
BTW, about reach...

I'm assuming you meant it to be different than normal reach weapons? Cause, reach weapons double your range, but can't be used against adjacent foes.

How I read this here... is that you get a spiked-chain type reach, but if you're large, you only get 15' reach rather than 20' that you get with normal reach weapons.

whoiam
2010-06-26, 01:50 PM
Literally, as per my writing in the OP:


The maximum reach of the limb increases by 5'

No increase in the minimum reach. That's unusual for weapons, but is, I believe, the typical ruling for larger or reachier natural weapons.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 02:21 PM
How do limbs interact with the Pounce ability (normally gained through Lion Totem Barbarian Shenanigans)? Could one charge (by land or air) and full-attack with limbs used to move during the charge, but not being used to stabilize (hold them up) at the end of the charge?

Example:
Class A: 2 Major Limbs (Excellent Natural Weapon, Oversized)
Class B: 2 Major Limbs (Walk, Winglet, Natural Weapon)
Class C: 2 Minor Limbs (Walk, Winglet)

$NAME swoops down, using class B+C limbs for movement during the charge. At the end of the charge, can $NAME declare themselves to be landing on their class C limbs and use both class A and B limbs for attacking, or only class A?

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 03:26 PM
If you have pounce, you land on the enemy-I'd say you treat ALL limbs as free.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 03:36 PM
Does it not count as already used? IDK

Anyway, IMO, the HD is a little low for a full BAB. (Do you want d4's while melee'ing? Else, you're stuck with 1 LA)

whoiam
2010-06-26, 03:39 PM
You know... the SRD version of the pounce ability just states that you can make a full attack at the end of the charge, so... you can make a full attack at the end of a charge. Limbs used for movement in that round were still used for movement in that round.

What you gain from Pounce is no attack penalties for multiple limbs in a regular attack, and you gain your Iterative attacks as normal.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 03:54 PM
Actually, in the rules for a Tyranid full attack, it doesn't say anything about not using limbs used for movement. By RAW, a full attack-pounce allows you to attack with movey limbs.
Which makes sense. If you pounce on someone, you can attack with the legs you charged with...

whoiam
2010-06-26, 04:00 PM
Actually, in the rules for a Tyranid full attack, it doesn't say anything about not using limbs used for movement. By RAW, a full attack-pounce allows you to attack with movey limbs.
Which makes sense. If you pounce on someone, you can attack with the legs you charged with...

You actually caught me out with rules I'd written myself!:O

But you're correct. I need to clarify the point that you need a standing leg or two to avoid just falling prone. Other than that, you can use all of them.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 04:01 PM
It does have to be clarified.

But as whoiam is the one who made the homebrew... what he says is what he intends it to be.

Also, I noticed it has the effect of Multiattack, even without the feat. (2ndary only takes -2 attacks.) Might want to say they get the bonus feat of Multiattack to make it clearer.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 04:04 PM
Also, I noticed it has the effect of Multiattack, even without the feat. (2ndary only takes -2 attacks.) Might want to say they get the bonus feat of Multiattack to make it clearer.

Penalties only apply to "secondary natural attacks". If all your natural attacks are "primary natural attacks" there is no penalty, and you can have multiple primary attacks...

whoiam
2010-06-26, 04:06 PM
Actually, the mechanics are slightly different from Multiattack, which is why I didn't simply say 'Tyranids have the Multiattack feat'.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 04:11 PM
You actually caught me out with rules I'd written myself!:O

But you're correct. I need to clarify the point that you need a standing leg or two to avoid just falling prone. Other than that, you can use all of them.
I try.

But in all seriousness, why? For example, my character has two talons, two hands with weapons, a tailspike rapier, and two frostbolts. If I pounce on someone, I will be standing on their face. With spikes. (Shrug)
Admittedly, I don't have pounce, and I have some unweaponed limbs anyway. But nonetheless.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 04:13 PM
.... I misread again.

So, did I get it correct this time?

Say, 20 BAB
Held Weapon and 3 Natural Weapons
Held Weapon: 20/15/10
Natural Weapon: 20/20/20

EDIT:

I try.

But in all seriousness, why? For example, my character has two talons, two hands with weapons, a tailspike rapier, and two frostbolts. If I pounce on someone, I will be standing on their face. With spikes. (Shrug)
Admittedly, I don't have pounce, and I have some unweaponed limbs anyway. But nonetheless.

But if you've a clawed wing? After flapping around to move to pounce, can you still use the wing to claw them? I'd say not, since it has done it's job of flapping this round.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 04:17 PM
If you have pounce, then yes. For the last few feet, you hurl themself at them, wrapping your wings around them and clawing seven kinds of hell from them as you bite and tear and burn and kill and maim.

Also, no. You get one attack at your full BAB with each weapon in a full attack, plus iteratives with one.

Sword: 20
Bite: 20
Claw 1: 20
Claw 2: 20/15/10/5

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 04:23 PM
Technically, we're about the same. To paraphrase

Mine is:
Say, 20 BAB
Held Weapon and 3 Natural Weapons
Held Weapon: 20/15/10
Claw 1: 20
Claw 2: 20
Claw 3: 20

So, it's similiar. The difference is... The held weapon is missing a /5, since I read up to 3 iterative attacks to be 3 attacks max.
I'm probably wrong on the wording's meaning though, since it's a damn odd/unique rule if I'm right.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 04:24 PM
I can see someone grabbing a ton of weak natural weapons, say, 50-60 and just wailing away at somebody. And only a LA of +12 It would only be +6. You could double that and get 120d6 damage... at ECL 13. :smallcool:

That would be breaking the first thing in the entire limb part. Which I forgot to read.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 04:27 PM
I can see someone grabbing a ton of weak natural weapons, say, 50-60 and just wailing away at somebody. And only a LA of +12 It would only be +6. You could double that and get 120d6 damage... at ECL 13. :smallcool:

That would be breaking the first thing in the entire limb part. Which I forgot to read.

There's a limit of 11 limbs... But that's basically the build I'm going for in your game. Get some flat damage bonuses that apply to each natural attack, get some defensive measures, and I'm golden :smallcool: .

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 04:30 PM
Check out the shifter class I posted up a few minutes ago - you could probably grab Pounce, and later on grab Superior Invisibility at will... Awesomesauce in a jar.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 04:35 PM
Check out the shifter class I posted up a few minutes ago - you could probably grab Pounce, and later on grab Superior Invisibility at will... Awesomesauce in a jar.

If I were to get Pounce from the shifter class you posted, I'd need 7 levels in it to qualify for Moderate abilities... Might as well take a 1 level dip in Barbarian, and take a bunch of LA on one side instead. =P

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 04:36 PM
Oh, you're good. But... the Hunt ability is friggin' epic.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 04:52 PM
Technically, we're about the same. To paraphrase

Mine is:
Say, 20 BAB
Held Weapon and 3 Natural Weapons
Held Weapon: 20/15/10
Claw 1: 20
Claw 2: 20
Claw 3: 20

So, it's similiar. The difference is... The held weapon is missing a /5, since I read up to 3 iterative attacks to be 3 attacks max.
I'm probably wrong on the wording's meaning though, since it's a damn odd/unique rule if I'm right.
Oh, I thought that was per claw. In that case yes, we mean the same. XD

whoiam
2010-06-26, 04:57 PM
*shrug* If all your limbs are embedded in a target's body and the target jumps, how can you hold yourself steady?

You can use as many limbs as you like in a full attack, but if you do not leave enough out to maintain some form of balance or control of your own motion, you fall prone at the end of the turn.

As per the OP, one limb allows you to maintain your balance/position, but you lose your dex bonus to AC and any related bonuses (dodge bonus, for instance). Two or more limbs allows you to continue acting as normal.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 05:24 PM
Ah, but how do they jump while a large tyranid is embedded in their body? XD

It's irrelevant for me. I have no pounce, and two move-only limbs.

whoiam
2010-06-26, 05:27 PM
Ah, but how do they jump while a large tyranid is embedded in their body? XD

'Badly'.

All they need is a reflex 'jump' ending in a stumble and a fall and the Tyranid goes over as well...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-26, 05:52 PM
Yes, fair point. XD
It's just, there are monsters with hind leg rakes they use when Pouncing. (Shrug) Ohwell. Your class. And I'm in NO way affected anyway. XD

Dead_Jester
2010-06-26, 08:03 PM
Yes, fair point. XD
It's just, there are monsters with hind leg rakes they use when Pouncing. (Shrug) Ohwell. Your class. And I'm in NO way affected anyway. XD

The only monster I can think of right now with those is the Fleshraker, and that isn't a good example of a balanced monster (even if it would look good as a Tyranid).

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 08:49 PM
The only monster I can think of right now with those is the Fleshraker, and that isn't a good example of a balanced monster (even if it would look good as a Tyranid).

There's also the Tiger :smallwink: .

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 09:35 PM
I want someone to make a character who has 4 claws, 3 bites, and 2 pincers. And make them all really good. Now that I think about it... I'm gonna see how many attacks I can stack onto a character.

I'll spend .5 LA to pick up 4 Natural Sickles. With one Major Limb.
I'll spend 4 LA to pick up 32 Natural Sickles. With 8 Major Limbs.
I'll spend 4.5 LA to pick up 36 Natural Sickles. With 9 Major Limbs.

There you go. At ECL 5, you can get 36d6 damage. Unless I got this wrong.

And, then you take 15 levels of Fighter. You know get +15/+15 on each of them. For 72d6. I think I did the math correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And then you grab a Belt of Battle, and a few other ways to get more attacks per round. I think you could, at the end, pick up something like 150-200d6 damage.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-26, 09:57 PM
I want someone to make a character who has 4 claws, 3 bites, and 2 pincers. And make them all really good. Now that I think about it... I'm gonna see how many attacks I can stack onto a character.

I'll spend .5 LA to pick up 4 Natural Sickles. With one Major Limb.
I'll spend 4 LA to pick up 32 Natural Sickles. With 8 Major Limbs.
I'll spend 4.5 LA to pick up 36 Natural Sickles. With 9 Major Limbs.

There you go. At ECL 5, you can get 36d6 damage. Unless I got this wrong.

And, then you take 15 levels of Fighter. You know get +15/+15 on each of them. For 72d6. I think I did the math correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And then you grab a Belt of Battle, and a few other ways to get more attacks per round. I think you could, at the end, pick up something like 150-200d6 damage.

You did get it wrong. Each limb can only have one natural weapon on it. :smalltongue:

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 10:14 PM
Shoot! Foiled again. :( If only it wasn't... and you could have as many limbs as you wanted...

whoiam
2010-06-27, 02:00 AM
It was either that, or a sliding expenses scale for the more abuseable features...

Dead_Jester
2010-06-27, 06:08 AM
Shoot! Foiled again. :( If only it wasn't... and you could have as many limbs as you wanted...

We really need to make a system to make Chaos Spawns, they don't care about such puny things as physics and maximum amount of limbs ...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-27, 06:24 AM
We need to start going through all the different Nids and stat them up.

Dead_Jester
2010-06-27, 06:31 AM
We need to start going through all the different Nids and stat them up.

Before we do that, we need to decide on which edition. There have been Nids in every single edition of WH40k, including the first one, and their stats change every time.

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 06:39 AM
I see 1 abuse lol.

Kensai.

All my natural weapons are now enchanted with +1 +9 enhancements.

Duskranger
2010-06-27, 08:12 AM
That's no abuse since the Tyranid also gets enhancement points which can be spended for that.

By the way can you take the double the ability point enhancement (of 1 LA) multiple times or only once and if you can take it twice does it double the points or only give you the starting number tripled. If it doubles it gives you:

1LA = 2/lvl
2LA = 4/lvl
3LA = 8/lvl
4LA = 16/lvl

In that case who needs that amount of levels you will get every levekl 16 points to divide on to your stats.

I would say put in the list a thing that says that those kind of enhancements can only be taken once. Because like you see I can make a ECL 10 monster this way with 6 levels that has gotten to divide: 16*6 =96 points in his abilityscores.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 08:18 AM
Standard doubling rules for 3.5 apply - two doublings is a tripling, three is a quadrupling, etc.

Duskranger
2010-06-27, 08:24 AM
Oke, but still it's not written and therefore abusable. I know you can't delete every bit thats abusable out of it. But some things can be caught away by this sort questions. Lucky us :smallbiggrin:

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 08:26 AM
The way I read it, each Natural Weapon needs a separate enhancement point.

Kensai enhances ALL of them. But yes, with say, 8 limbs, it costs you 100%+10% per limb xp. Which is a lot.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 09:31 AM
That could get... annoying.

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 11:43 AM
What is? The Kensai? The separate enhancements?

(Personally, I feel the separate enhancements suffer from the TWF problem. Costs too dang much to enchant all your weapons to ECL appropriate levels)

whoiam
2010-06-27, 11:44 AM
What is? The Kensai? The separate enhancements?

(Personally, I feel the separate enhancements suffer from the TWF problem. Costs too dang much to enchant all your weapons to ECL appropriate levels)

*grin* I was thinking much the same myself. Actually, I was thinking about switching it to a 'all natural weapons can be enchanted up to level X' system, and then slowing the progression down to match...

Kredine
2010-06-27, 11:59 AM
Hey there, any chance you could elaborate on damage dealt by limbs etc, I'd love to use these but I are mildly confused. :)

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 12:01 PM
It's the same as the weapon you are emulating.

Kredine
2010-06-27, 12:05 PM
But what if you haven't taken the natural weapon thing? It says an attack can be made with each limb not used for movement, what damage would they do?

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 12:08 PM
If they aren't being used for movement, they are a weapon. A ( natural ) weapon.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 12:14 PM
If you haven't taken a natural weapon on that limb, then they count as part of your unarmed attack, as per any other character's hands and legs.

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 12:14 PM
... I don't think you can use non-Natural weapon limbs as Natural weapon.

Think of it as you hands. You deal unarmed damage by punching them without your claws. In this, no natural weapon = unarmed attack.

EDIT: Ninja

Kredine
2010-06-27, 12:15 PM
Thank you whoiam that was what I was after. :) Thanks alot. Great work you've done here, it's fantastic :)

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 12:19 PM
Ok, we should totally get some stuff to decrease/increase sizes.

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 12:21 PM
There is the +1LA for size increase.

Me? I prefer to tack in Half Minotaur. Or Half Orge.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 12:28 PM
If there wasn't already evidence in canon that Tyranids *did* steal traits from encountered species, I'd have put in a rule that said every Tyranid has to be a pure strain Tyranid:p

At least my other current homebrew (D&D treatment for Terminators (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157807):D) gets to have a rule like that.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 12:30 PM
There should be rules for the Tyranid who are far more powerful than other ie: Hive Tyrants.

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 12:38 PM
Yeah, some templates are pretty powerful.

Dark/Shadow is great for sneaks.
Half-ogre/minotaur/Goristro is great for melee
Feral is good for Fast Healing (and with RHD, Imp. Grab/Pounce/Rake/Rend)

Lord Badguy
2010-06-27, 02:17 PM
*grin* I was thinking much the same myself. Actually, I was thinking about switching it to a 'all natural weapons can be enchanted up to level X' system, and then slowing the progression down to match...

I would prefer this very much. :smallbiggrin:

Also, if you take a 3-point natural attack emulating a Double-Weapon, can that limb make two attacks during a full-attack, and would you need the Two/Multi Weapon Fighting feats to do so without enormous penalties?

whoiam
2010-06-27, 02:27 PM
Yes and yes. It is treated in every respect as though it was a double weapon being held in two hands. You can use one end two-handed, or make a single attack with each end with the standard penalties.

TWF penalties only apply to the limb that's TWFing, though.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 02:41 PM
:( I was ignored.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-27, 02:46 PM
A Hive Tyrant is just a higher level Tyranid. XD

What happens if you take Reach and Thumbs on one limb? Or, if you take Thumbs on one limb twice, can you count it as two hands for the purposes of holding big weapons?

whoiam
2010-06-27, 02:49 PM
'Reach' and 'Thumbs' gives you an arm with really long range.

Taking 'thumbs' twice gives you two opposable digits on the end of your limb instead of one. It's still one hand, it just has two thumbs on it.

2xMachina
2010-06-27, 02:55 PM
What does it do? Makes it look weird?

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 02:56 PM
It should give you a bonus to attack, since it lets you control your weapon better.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 02:57 PM
Not really, no. In much the same way that the difference between having four fingers and three fingers makes no difference to the rules - the difference between one thumb and two gives you no actual bonus.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-27, 02:58 PM
Well, that means I can make full use of my four starting major limbs. :elan:

Edit: This was in response to whoiam's clarification on double-weapon limbs.

Edit2: New question; Would a single limb with a winglet allow you to hold your position in the air, or just "featherfall"/glide down safely? I would think that with a poor maneuverability you could not "hold position" because with poor maneuverability you need to move to stay aloft...

Volthawk
2010-06-27, 03:17 PM
For Improved Natural Attack, do the energy weapons count as the same natural form, even if they have different elements?

Could I get an answer for this? It'll make the difference between large artillery and huge artillery...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-27, 03:17 PM
I think it should count as two hands, so you can use 1.5 str on a Two handed weapon.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 03:23 PM
Lix: "In Combat, the limb is treated as any one-handed, two-handed or double weapon wielded in two hands." -- The text for an Excellent Natural Weapon.

Volt: I'll have to think about that one. I'll get back to you when I finish working on my Terminators.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-27, 03:44 PM
Ohwell. XD

Lord Badguy
2010-06-27, 03:55 PM
How would one go about stating this tail (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m730141a_99120106019_TyranidTrygonMawloc1_873x627. jpg)? Could use my starting minor limb and take "walk" two times to get regullar movement with it, or would the "two limbs" rule still apply?

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 04:47 PM
You wanna be a Trygon?

Lord Badguy
2010-06-27, 05:28 PM
It's more because of how much it reminds me of Hydralisks (Which IIRC, the zerg were based on the tyranid, so that makes sense). :smalltongue:

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 06:06 PM
Tyranid are friggin' awesome. And I'd say that yes, you can have a tail that functions as a walking tool, but looks like a tail. You'll be like a snake :smallcool:

whoiam
2010-06-28, 11:42 AM
Alright. Single walking tail: If you want. You can pay for two limbs and for the fluff say they're both fused into a single tail.

Improved Natural Weapon: It applies based on type of damage dealt. So any one energy type can be improved, or slashing, piercing or bludgeoning can. It applies to all natural weapons of the given type.

You can take it multiple times - each time it applies to a different natural weapon type.

It does stack with the size increase limb property.

Duskranger
2010-06-28, 02:16 PM
One word is all I need to say about the INA rule: Nice

Cadian 9th
2010-06-29, 04:55 AM
It's more because of how much it reminds me of Hydralisks (Which IIRC, the zerg were based on the tyranid, so that makes sense). :smalltongue:

Yes! Someone who says Zerg look like Tyranids! Not the other way round! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, lovely work. I'll be testing these in a campaign I've got in the works.

Dante

Duskranger
2010-06-29, 05:30 AM
Maybe a little late for that, but maybe you could also give for a moderate LA price another good save to the Tyranid (say LA+1 or maybe LA+0,5) So that they have than two good saves instead of 1.

Oslecamo
2010-06-29, 05:40 AM
Yes! Someone who says Zerg look like Tyranids! Not the other way round! :smallbiggrin:


Actualy, they both look like the Starship trooper bugs, the original hivemind aliens. Zerg being inspired by the tyranids is a common misconception. They were both inspired by the same older work of fiction. 40K has actualy very little original content on it.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-29, 09:10 AM
starship troopers bugs are nothing like Tyranids. The only real similarity is the hivemind; and even there, there entire forms for doing anything are different.

And Zergs look like Tyranids. Tyranids do not look like Bugs.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-29, 09:18 AM
Tyranids are inspired by bugs though, they just don't look like them. XD

NecroticPunch
2010-06-29, 09:21 AM
I will never accept that! Tyranids are too awesome!

Lix Lorn
2010-06-29, 09:24 AM
You have clearly never heard of the bombardier beetle.

Oslecamo
2010-06-29, 09:51 AM
starship troopers bugs are nothing like Tyranids. The only real similarity is the hivemind; and even there, there entire forms for doing anything are different.

Read the Starship Troopers book (the movie is quite diferent). Say they're nothing alike then.



And Zergs look like Tyranids. Tyranids do not look like Bugs.

Well not all of them. The first genestealers were literally carbon copies of the Aliens. You can still see Alien-like design in a lot of nids nowadays.:smallamused:

Alien-like space bugs that however Starcraft doesn't have at all.:smallwink:

NecroticPunch
2010-06-29, 10:00 AM
But alot of Zergs look like Tyranids. I WILL NEVER BELIEVE YOU!!!!!

Oslecamo
2010-06-29, 10:06 AM
But alot of Zergs look like Tyranids. I WILL NEVER BELIEVE YOU!!!!!

No, they both look like the starship troopers book space bugs. Resistance is futile. What's next? You're gonna say that any star wars stormtroopers rip off imperial stormtroopers for using armor and energy based weapons? That any space warrior with power armor rips off space marines? That Tolkien ripped off 40K by creating a race of war-thirsty extra strong but stupid creatures that emerge from the earth?:smalltongue:

NecroticPunch
2010-06-29, 10:20 AM
No, not really. I'm only obsessed with the Tyranids :P But still, you could claim that anything is based off of another thing, when we don't even know if they are. It might've just been a coincidence that the Tyranids are similar to other Space Bugs; same thing goes with the Zerg.

Dead_Jester
2010-06-29, 10:27 AM
No, not really. I'm only obsessed with the Tyranids :P But still, you could claim that anything is based off of another thing, when we don't even know if they are. It might've just been a coincidence that the Tyranids are similar to other Space Bugs; same thing goes with the Zerg.

Actually, as far as Zergs are concerned, the inspiration really was Tyranids and the Bugs in both the Starship trooper (horrible) movie and book. I can't say for sure about the Tyranids, but the idea of the Genestealers (especially in the original Space Hulk), if not the models, was heavily inspired by the Aliens.

2xMachina
2010-06-29, 10:50 AM
Potential Combo Abuses:

1)
Kensai
8 Composite Longbow + Rapidshot = 16 attacks.
Tack on Splitting (+3) from Kensai for 32 shots

2)
Size abuse.
Half Minotaur/Half Ogre (+1)
Half Goristro (+4)
Size change (+1)
Gargantuan size.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-29, 10:50 AM
I'll accept that. But the Trygon are awesome, and so are Carnifex :)

whoiam
2010-06-29, 01:21 PM
Well, first up, there's a line to go into the OP: Any Tyranid that's not a purestrain Tyranid pays double for all its species upgrades.

Then there's a second line which I hope any DM would get without me having to type it:

"If it's Half Minotaur and Half Goristo, then it's a Minotaur/Goristo hybrid and not a Tyranid."

I really will have to look up the Kensai one of these days*-)

Lix Lorn
2010-06-29, 02:05 PM
"If it's Half Minotaur and Half Goristo, then it's a Minotaur/Goristo hybrid and not a Tyranid."

I'd assume that would count as a quarter each of them.

2xMachina
2010-06-29, 03:03 PM
Kensai is great for natural weapons. Otherwise... not so much.

Duskranger
2010-06-30, 02:38 AM
And sadly according to me you can only use one bow. Unless you're an arrowdemon, but he has a feat to do something like that. There's too much coordination needed for firing 2 bows simultaneously.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-30, 02:43 AM
I will never accept that! Tyranids are too awesome!

As Lord Dante of the Cadian 9th, I'd have to agree with you. I Particularly like the look of them when they have been ripped apart by ordinance.

Dante

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 03:52 AM
And sadly according to me you can only use one bow. Unless you're an arrowdemon, but he has a feat to do something like that. There's too much coordination needed for firing 2 bows simultaneously.

But it's a natural weapon acting like a bow. Your limbs are basically bows. That don't need arrows.

Unless it is ruled otherwise of course.

BTW, do you know that the Tyranid has no sight? Better add a line on vision...

NecroticPunch
2010-07-02, 08:45 PM
Would you like me to create any more PrCs?

InfiniteNothing
2010-07-02, 11:54 PM
Please do. I'm really enjoying what I'm seeing so far.

whoiam
2010-07-07, 02:05 PM
0.2.3 posted - the Enhancement Points have been changed to a maximum enhancement limit, and I've added Errata addressing Tyranids and Kensai, Tyranids and Rapid Shot, and Tyranids and Templates.

2xMachina
2010-07-07, 03:13 PM
The Kensai change... might contradict the Kensai class. It is said to be able to enhance all your natural weapons (at +10% cost for each weapon. 4 natural weapons mean you pay 140%.) (The example given as a claw/claw/bite and... tail I think)

Naturally, it does not stack with other enhancement bonuses (so a Tynarid 10/Kensai 10 only has a maximum of +10 weapon no matter what.)

whoiam
2010-07-07, 03:24 PM
Actually, it states that specific types of natural weapon have to be imbued seperately. If you're only allowed one imbued weapon, and one type of natural attack counts as one (slightly more expensive) weapon for a Kensai, then you can only imbue one type of natural weapon.

I just clarified that to 'an identical set', since Tyranids can technically have several different sets of claws.

NecroticPunch
2010-07-07, 03:26 PM
Whoiam, which PrC should I do next?

2xMachina
2010-07-07, 03:30 PM
Actually, it states that specific types of natural weapon have to be imbued seperately. If you're only allowed one imbued weapon, and one type of natural attack counts as one (slightly more expensive) weapon for a Kensai, then you can only imbue one type of natural weapon.

I just clarified that to 'an identical set', since Tyranids can technically have several different sets of claws.

Huh, I don't know how I misread the Kensai... I went through it a few times, and I was wrong.

NecroticPunch
2010-07-07, 03:33 PM
For the purpose of Natural/Armor Bonus/Deflection does Natural Armor stack with what you acquire from other classes? And if a class says that you don't gain your bonus if you have armor on, would you lose your natural armor bonus from the class?