Poet's Final Fantasy 8 Foray (was: FF8 battle help)

[Another_Poet]

This thread was originally requesting help understanding the junction system of FF8. From there it went through awesome discussion of characters, plot, optimization, card strategy, and more. Now it is a place for me to babble about my latest exploits as I traverse the game world, and for all of you to comment, critique, impune, wax ecstatic, or anecdotify about your own FF8 love/hate.

Hi everyone,

To celebrate summer and the awesomeness of life, I've been considering replaying some of my old favourite video games from my youth. The Final Fantasy series is right up there. I remember that I never finished Final Fantasy 8, and am considering starting a new game as a summer project. But then I also remembered why I never finished it...

I sucked at it.

All I can say is that yes, I did the tutorial on Junctioning, and would junction GFs to my characters' stats; yes, I understood Draw points and would try to stay stocked on the best spells; but somehow, I would always do crappy damage, take heavy damage, and often see fights drag on for ridiculously long times before I could whittle the enemies down and win. It was, as I recall, excruciating.

As a 28 year old I am willing to accept that my 18 year old self may have been doing something wrong or didn't get something about the system. But I don't know what it is. I went to GameFAQs and looked at their walkthroughs and guides, but couldn't find much that was useful. The combat system guide talked more about the mathematics and programming of the abilities than how to optimise them.

If anyone out there can give any tips on making strong FFVIII characters or making combat a breeze, I would love it. I can't handle 10 minute battles if there is a random encounter every 15 steps.

I will say that I did not enjoy going on quests to get spoils to build new weapons, so I had a limited selection of upgraded weapons. If that is a major problem let me know. I also avoided the card game when possible, but I don't think that would affect my combat abilities?

edit: I gave up around the time that flying cube thing (Pandora I think it was called?) was attacking the city. Fighting the coeurl things on my way through the city was ridiculous.

TLDR: Help me be a god of war in FF8.

ap

[Mirrinus]

I also avoided the card game when possible, but I don't think that would affect my combat abilities?

This may be your biggest mistake of all.

The card game can make you into an overpowered god of war before your second boss fight of the game. Observe what I have done before:

1. Play cards in Balamb, try to get good level 6-ish cards.
2. Once you get a decent deck of 5 cards, go target players who carry Abyss Worm, Blitz, Snow Lion, and other specific targets.
3. Using Card Mod, refine these into Windmills, Dynamos, and North Winds.
4. Using Quez and Shiva's Mag Refine abilities, turn these into Tornados, Thundagas, and Blizzagas.
5. There. You now have some insane spells to junction to your stats, and you still haven't even fought Ifrit yet!

There's a lot more you can do like this. For example, winning Tiamat cards off of Dr. Kadokawa in the infirmiary and turning them into Flare stones, which Ifrit can turn into Flare spells. How's that for ridiculous junctioning potential?

The easiest way to play the game is to try to level up as little as possible, as enemies level up with your party. Instead, keep your levels low (use the Card ability to "kill" enemies without gaining exp, and also getting more cards) and rely on junctioning for your stats. In the very beginning of the game, you can get good stuff like Regen (for HP junction), Flare (elemental defense or any other stat), Tornado (attack or magic), Meltdown (vitality), etc., just by playing and winning cards (Mesmerize, Tiamat, Abyss Worm, Gayla, respectively). This will skyrocket your stats while keeping your enemies weak.

[Another_Poet]

Mirrinus, this is very interesting advice! Can you tell me more?

Specifically, first off, how many hours am I going to have to spend playing the stupid card game at Balamb in the beginning to get the awesomeness you describe?

Second, if I go around using Card on enemies and then refine them into stuff to Junction, can I avoid further playing of the card game or am I going to have to be playing it through the whole game?

Last, do you know of any site or guide that will explain in simple terms how to win at the card game? I am not even sure what the numbers and things on the cards mean, let alone have I built any strategy around winning.

Thank you...

[tyckspoon]

The card game is a major source of power, so that might actually be part of your problem- Card Refine can be used to get a lot of rare items and spells much more easily than you can without it. For example, you can turn Armadodo and T-Rexaur cards into Dino Bones, which refine into a largish quantity of Quakes, which are an excellent early-game Strength junction. Blitz cards can be turned into Dynamo Stones which make a large number of Thundagas, Tonberrys make Chef Knives which make Death, which is game-breakingly good as a Status Attack junction.. all of those cards are played semi-regularly by people in the Garden and Balamb. Card playing and modification is also important to getting Quistis's Limit Break abilities, although one of the best is actually available from the starter set; Card Mod the Gesper for the Black Hole, use it to teach Quistis Degenerator, abuse the hell out of it. Degenerator will 100% one-hit kill any non-boss enemy.

New weapons have a relatively small effect on battle performance, so I wouldn't worry about it too much; probably the largest thing they do is unlock Squall's higher Limit Break finishers. And you can get 255% accuracy (never miss, even while blinded) from Selphie's ultimate weapon.

Efficient use of Limit Breaks is an important part; it helps to know exactly how each one works (for example, you get the best damage from Zell by cycling through a couple of his basic attacks over and over instead of going for his finisher moves. And Meteor Drive does gravity-based damage [ie, percentage of target's HP], so you can get a lot more damage out of it if you get it into the rotation against something like a Ruby Dragon.) You get a chance to Limit Break every time a character's turn comes up. This includes when you simply pass or cycle their turns by hitting Triangle.. so, if you are in critical health or under the Aura status and don't get a Limit Break, you can just whack Triangle a few times until you do get the chance. One of the many game-breaking fighting tactics in the game involves leaving your characters at low health, junctioning Haste or Triple to their Speed, and just throwing out like a dozen limit breaks before the enemy ever gets to act.

Also, it's handy to know that your stats don't increase all that much as you level, unless you're using one of the Stat UP junction abilities from your GF. Ifrit is the first one to have one of these, so if you really want to have somebody do good damage, try to restrain your leveling until he knows that ability (Carding an enemy grants GF points without XP, and if you're feeling really patient you can let Seifer solo farm the Dollet mission to train the GFs you have at that point.) Once you know it, set it on Squall and never take it off- I usually have Squall doing ~5000 damage with a normal strike end-game.

[Celesyne]

Once you can get to Status-Atk-Junction get your person with it 100 pain spells and junction it to the status atk. This means every physical attack they make will inflict blind, poison, and silence. 100 Ultimas in Elemental Defense will give you 100% absorb for lightning,fire and Ice. I'll think of more later.

[Mirrinus]

Specifically, first off, how many hours am I going to have to spend playing the stupid card game at Balamb in the beginning to get the awesomeness you describe?

As much as you're willing to devote. I have a high tolerance for such things, but winning just a dozen games or so (they go by quick) can be enough to net you some great items for refining. In the early game, I'd prioritize Abyss Worm, Tiamat, and Krysta cards first (the latter 2 are fairly rare and only used by good players), followed by level 3 magic item related cards like Snow Lion and Dynamo, and maybe the T-Rexaur.


Second, if I go around using Card on enemies and then refine them into stuff to Junction, can I avoid further playing of the card game or am I going to have to be playing it through the whole game?

The problem is that most common enemies in the early game don't give you very worthwhile things. Off the top of my head, the exceptions are Mesmerize (Mesemerize Blade > 20 Regen), Gayla (Mystery Fluid > 10 Meltdown), T-Rexaur (Dino Bone > 20 Quake), and Abyss Worm (Windmill > 20 Tornado). In the very early game, stuff that gives tier 2 magic (Bombs, Blizzard Eyes) are worthwhile too. I still recommend using Card, just don't expect to get the best spells off of only that. Remember that you'll still need to weaken a target before casting Card on it.


Last, do you know of any site or guide that will explain in simple terms how to win at the card game? I am not even sure what the numbers and things on the cards mean, let alone have I built any strategy around winning.

You should be able to find a guide for it on GameFAQs or something, but the game's fairly simple. When a card is placed down, any card that borders it with a lower number than your card's number on that side gets captured. Whoever owns the most cards at the end of the round is the winner. There are more complicated rules in later regions (curse you, Plus rule!), but you can win most of the good basic spells in Balamb anyway, where the rules are at their easiest.

[Another_Poet]

When a card is placed down, any card that borders it with a lower number than your card's number on that side gets captured.

But aren't there cards with letters too? How do those interact with #'s? (Or am I thinking of FFIX?)

[tyckspoon]

Just 'A', and all it means is 10. IX was the one with really inscrutable cards.

[Mirrinus]

What he said. A beats all other numbers. Only really rare cards (typically level 8+ cards) have A's anyway, so you know they're good.

[NecroRebel]

The card game isn't needed, the card system is invaluable. Having played through FF8 again just 2 weeks ago, I currently know the system fairly well, so here's what I would recommend doing from the start of the game.

tl;dr: Minimize level gain, draw full stock of magic whenever possible, and refine cards into items, items into magic, and magic into better magic as soon as possible. Refinement abilities are by far and away the most valuable GF abilities!

First, try to play a low-level game. Avoid leveling up whenever possible; this, unlike most RPGs, makes the game much easier because enemies' power is based off of your party's average level, while your party's power is based off of drawn magic. The best way to avoid leveling is to get Quezacotl's Card ability ASAP and use it on every enemy in every random encounter; this prevents xp gain, but not AP gain, so your GFs still learn abilities while your people don't level up.

Second, on occasion, just sit in a single battle and draw like crazy. Kill every enemy but one, nullify that enemy's attack power if possible via Blind or Silence attacks, and then just rubberband your controller/put a stack of pennies on your keyboard to make your people just draw and stock magic continuously until everybody's got 100 of everything that monster has. Occasional 20-minute draw sessions really make the game faster overall if they're cutting 20-hit kills to 2-hit kills.

Third, the most important junction ability is Str-J, followed by Stat Att-J and Elem Def-J (and its x2 and x4 variants). Your Strength, on every character, should always be as high as possible, with the strongest available magic junctioned to it. This means that if a character doesn't have Str-J available, that GF ability should be near the top of your list for learning. If you do this, generally you can deal as much damage with a physical attack as with a GF, so you can just not bother summoning, ever, which also really speeds up battles.

Fourth, forcing GFs to learn new abilities in a different order than they would naturally is essential. The top of the list, at the very beginning of the game, should be Card for Quezacotl, followed by Card-Ref and T-mag Ref, while for Shiva it should go I-mag Ref followed by Str-J and Elem Att-J. Card, as mentioned above, nullifies experience gain, while I-mag Ref lets you hunt Fastificalon-Fs on the beach near Balamb, get Fish Fins, and refine them into 20 Waters apiece. Waters are better for Str-J than Fira and other mid-level magics, and you can get them before the Fire Cavern. For other GFs as you get them, priority should go to refinement abilities, Junction abilities that one of your main 3 are missing, and then other stuff. The exception is Diablos, who should immediately go for Enc-Half and Enc-None so you can (yet further!) limit experience growth.

Let's see... What else... Ah yes, you can gain quite a bit of power early if you do play the card game a lot, though it isn't necessary. Win a card, use Card-Ref on it to get items from it, then use whatever mag-Ref abilities you might have to get whatever magic you can. Learn Quezacotl's Mid-mag Ref ability early and use it to get stronger spells early (or at all, if you've been minimizing level gain) and Alexander's High-mag Ref as soon as you can (that's... disk 3 I think). Also, once you get Siren, learn L-mag Ref, buy a bunch of Tents, and refine them into Curagas. On disk 1. Right after Dollet. It's something of a game breaker to have those available for Vigor or HP junction that early. Basically, though, just use mainly physical attacks, draw and refine oodles of magic, and minimize level growth, and you'll be fine and happy.

[Domochevsky]

Eh, you can also entirely ignore the card game and get massively overpowered anyway.

The key is, as with the others, the Card Mod ability, which lets you transform items into spells, (which you then assign to your stats with the other coresponding abilities). Pretty much all items can be transformed, with cards being the most powerful (although cards need to be transformed into items first). But you can find a good bunch of the really good ones without playing a single card game.

To get enough items you can do the exams to receive loads of cash with your regular paycheck.

The weird thing about FF8 is that actually casting spells is detrimental to your abilities. You don't want to do that since you want to attach 100 of each to your stats. And summoning GFs takes for-friggin-ever, so just wailing on things physically is the best option.

Also: Aura. Bestest spell ever. :smallcool:

[Eldariel]

I always found the T-rexaur a great Draw-source; available at the very start, and easily Sleepable (I recall I used Quistis's Sleep Whip?). Then just keep Drawing until you have full Level 2 elementals. Though, of course, card does it better. But yeah, the game is different in that it isn't about your level (in fact, levels don't really matter in the game), it's about having 99 of a good junction for each stat you have J open for.

Or spamming Sephie's The End Limit if you don't mind sitting at the Slots for a while; it even beats Omega Weapon IIRC (well, in general, once you get Aura-spell, or play carefully at low HP, spamming Limits is a good way to run through the game; obviously you need all the weapon advancements which generally requires cardgames to do efficiently; you can get Squall's Leonhart (best weapon) on disk 1 if you play enough).


But yeah, the game is a grinder's game. The reason I really dislike it compared to the earlier FFs (and which made me stop playing the newer parts of the series altogether; yes, FF8 is the last FF I've finished).

[Another_Poet]

Wow guys. This is the best advice I've seen. I haven't found it in any FAQ or walkthrough (or it was buried in there and not explained as well). Playgrounders rock.

[littlebottom]

WINNERS GUIDE TO FF8!

now, it goes like this

Step 1: play the begining until you get ifrit. then equip ifrit to squal, and spend a little time here getting up a few skills on ifrit through a few fights, get it so that you have +20% damage (and 40 and so on as soon as you can which i believe isnt straight away) and spend some time drawing 100 fires blizzards etc from the starting monsters, then junction the 100 fires or what ever to your strength junction, never use that spell ever from now on as it will drop his stat.

then used elemental attack junction for whatever element you choose (cant be the same as you put in strength)

remember to replace these spells as soon as you get a stronger spell that offers higher strength.

Step 2: final point to remember, always hit R1 when you attack with squal, garenteed crit.

what with your stupidly high strength and garenteed crits, you will likely be hitting 9999 damage every hit a short way into the second disc.

step 3: ???????

step 4: you win!

this is by far the best start you can do, but this alone will not get you all the way through the game obviously, but it will make it a whole load easier from the start, and you will only need to stop to draw a bunch of new spells later, so its not too time consuming either

EDIT: a word to the wise, once you have the +20% strength, you have to actually equip it, so dont forget to through junctioning.

EDIT: EDIT: if you do what was said above about the cards for the better spells early on, it is even better, but more time consuming.

[NecroRebel]

Wow guys. This is the best advice I've seen. I haven't found it in any FAQ or walkthrough (or it was buried in there and not explained as well). Playgrounders rock.

It is there, but it's often not obvious. The advice about minimizing level gain, in particular, is something that a lot of guide writers simply never notice, probably because it flies in the face of our experience with every other RPG out there. Low levels, making the game easier?! Blasphemy! but it works.

Much of the advice I personally gave come, slightly indirectly, from a No-Level Up Challenge guide (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/19814) I found on Gamefaqs. While I didn't follow very precisely it in my most recent game (I think Squall, Zell, and Rinoa, my main party, were level ~20 after I got Rinoa back at the end of disk 3, at which point I gave them all Str-Boost as an ability and leveled them to 100, for +80 Str unjunctioned :smallamused:), the advice therein is good.

[ZeroNumerous]

Specifically, first off, how many hours am I going to have to spend playing the stupid card game at Balamb in the beginning to get the awesomeness you describe?

Why do you not like the card game? I found it to be the only thing worth playing FF8 for after awhile.

In fact, if you don't play the card game you miss out on Laguna's card, which may as well be called "Refine Me And Win The Game".

[Mirrinus]

In fact, if you don't play the card game you miss out on Laguna's card, which may as well be called "Refine Me And Win The Game".

I thought that was Gilgamesh? Especially if you wait to get infinite numbers of Gilgamesh cards on disk 4 after completing the King of Cards sidequest earlier.

[Zeful]

First things first.

Guardian Forces: These are the main source of your power and in general more important that the magic. Why? Because of the refinement abilities. Shiva's Ice/Water Magic refinement ability gets you very early access to Water (Fish fins at the beach right outside Balam), which is the most powerful magic you can get within the first 30 minutes of playing. Every time you get a new GF have it learn the cheapest refinement abilities it knows. Q (the lightning GF that you get at the beginning of the game, whose name I can't spell) should learn Card and Card mod, because this allows you to get items that will be made into magic (Dino Bones, Dragon Fins) improve your weapons, and get medicine.

Magic: The golden rule is "always keep 100". This allows your fighters to fight and your mages to nuke. Try to cast as little from Junctioned magic as possible (if it's unavoidable then do it, there are plenty of monsters that you can snatch the magic from later. Don't risk dying because of this advice). Use the Draw command against everything, spells you've never seen come up as ????? while GFs will have their name there. Enough enemies in disc 1 have Cures you can draw from so as long as everybody's alive you will generally be able to keep them that way.

Triple Triad: This is a little harder, but some general advice is: Play defensively, you only need one card to win, don't try to take everything until you get better cards and the Diff rule (you don't get anything but bragging rights otherwise). I found a guide on Game FAQs (linked below) about how the AI plays and a good strategy to get you started. In short: Ifrit in the lower right corner is your first move most every game. Wait till you're opponent boxes himself in and then take cards he can't flip back. Play defensively, it's better to draw and lose nothing than lose a card you can't get back (which you will if you lose, the AI takes the rarest card you put out).
For everything else: Look here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/10404).

EDIT:
Specifically, first off, how many hours am I going to have to spend playing the stupid card game at Balamb in the beginning to get the awesomeness you describe?Most games take one to two minutes for me, so about half an hour. Unless you want Lionheart on disc one. That will take a while.


Second, if I go around using Card on enemies and then refine them into stuff to Junction, can I avoid further playing of the card game or am I going to have to be playing it through the whole game?Some from column A some from column B. It's best if you play a little (say five wins every new town).


Last, do you know of any site or guide that will explain in simple terms how to win at the card game? I am not even sure what the numbers and things on the cards mean, let alone have I built any strategy around winning.

Thank you...

Linked in this post.

[Triaxx]

Buy Cottages. Then use Siren's L-Mag RF to oturn them into Curaga, and junction to life. Instant 3K life gain.

Cards are pretty simple. Higher numbers always win. A=10, but if same is in play, it's possible to still lose. Look up a rule FAQ to avoid spreading, and to learn how to eliminate rules like Random.

The actual game is also easy. Protect your corners, and watch for an opening to flip an unflippable. Certain players always play certain orders. Once you learn those, you're invincible.

[Garland]

Hmm, I found that farming magic and junctioning a lot of it whenever posible made the game's battles very good and enjoyable. Also, the characters became good enough to not have to summon GFs every turn (which is what i had to do in my first run). I liked to customize all characters as much as i could to make them unique, for example giving zell full elemental protection or giving Irvine the death gun (Doom), or junctioning fun magic like Pain to weapons (was it pain, the one that inflicted multiple status effects?)

It was a very fun game if you got into the whole junctioning thingie and had the patience to farm lots of magic (after acquiring the ability to refine it became a lot easier)

I didn't even get into the card game, but i understand that one of the keys to succeed was preventing some very bad rules to spread (like the "random" rule)

[Another_Poet]

Why do you not like the card game? I found it to be the only thing worth playing FF8 for after awhile.

Personal taste I guess. I played FF8 because I loved FF6 and 7, Secret of Mana and Chrono Tigger, etc. I love a good RPG. I wasn't expecting or looking forward to a collectible card game and it rankled me that it seemed to be a major focus of the game rather than a mere sidequest or minigame. I guess I never got over that and just stuck my nose up at it.

The advice in this thread makes me feel a little better about the card game and a lot better about the battle system. I feel like I have something to look forward to after work Monday because with the junctioning system, refining, and a little card play it sounds like it will be very strategic, the gameplay will be more fun and the battles faster, thus letting me focus on the plot which I mostly liked.

Thanks again everyone :)

[Zeful]

For a while I tried to figure out the card game with nothing but the ingame tutorial.

It didn't work, after reading the FAQ I linked, I only Draw games when I'm not paying attention or misread a card. The cardgame became a fun little diversion when I'm not grinding monsters for just Cards and AP (Carding an enemy gives no experience, but every other reward is intact). Or furthering the long PLOT sections.

I will reiterate: you don't need to play the cardgame, at all, you can use the card command on pretty much everything you'd be getting eventually, the cardgame just gets it to you faster.

[Thanatos 51-50]

My guide to FF8?

1> Put 100 Zombie Spells on a given party member's weapon

2> Revive/Cure/Potion kills zombies.

Contrary to popular belief, you should level up as much as possible. While the mooks level up alongside you, fighting them gets exactly zero percent more difficult as you progress, whereas the bosses all have hard-coded level caps that you can far exceed, turning bossfights into a cakewalk.

[Cespenar]

The game doesn't exactly necessitate grind, as far as I remember it. I wouldn't be able to play and finish it otherwise. You just need to draw-spam a few times and find out which spell maximizes which stat, and all non-optional fights become rather passable. You don't even need to play the card game.

[littlebottom]

Personal taste I guess. I played FF8 because I loved FF6 and 7, Secret of Mana and Chrono Tigger, etc. I love a good RPG. I wasn't expecting or looking forward to a collectible card game and it rankled me that it seemed to be a major focus of the game rather than a mere sidequest or minigame. I guess I never got over that and just stuck my nose up at it.

often through my playthroughs i entirely neglect the card game, it is indeed a mini game, but its a minigame that can help the main game if you put enough time into it, but its not nessisary. as i say, i usually dont bother because i know the game well enough now to just mess about a bit :smallamused:

[Another_Poet]

Okay so questions on leveling...

Opinion has varied as to how important it is to not level, or if it even matters whether you level. I wonder which of these three statements you guys think is most accurate. Vote please!

A) Always weaken and Card monsters except those you have to defeat. If you are sloppy and kill monsters by accident even just 20-30% of the time you are going to level too quickly and have a hard game.

B) Do your best to weaken and Card monsters but if you are a little sloppy and gain some extra levels it won't make a big difference. If you accidentally kill 20-30% of monsters you are still going to be at a low enough level for an easy game.

C) Level doesn't matter. Weaken and Card monsters when you need their cards, otherwise kill as you see fit. The game is no harder when you level normally than it is if you stay at low levels.

Your votes??

[Domochevsky]

My guide to FF8?

1> Put 100 Zombie Spells on a given party member's weapon

2> Revive/Cure/Potion kills zombies.

Contrary to popular belief, you should level up as much as possible. While the mooks level up alongside you, fighting them gets exactly zero percent more difficult as you progress, whereas the bosses all have hard-coded level caps that you can far exceed, turning bossfights into a cakewalk.

Actually the levelup is only bound to Squall, so if you kill him off at the beginning of a battle and level the other characters as much as you want you will be even more overpowered without even going out of your way to do it.


Edit: Mostly C, really, assuming you use the other advantages. (The only thing that could get really tough are the Weapons.)

[Totally Guy]

I remember there being a desert in which you could fight Cactuars over and over. They gave loads of AP for your junction dudes so you could get some big abilities that way.

AP is way better than XP

[NecroRebel]

I remember there being a desert in which you could fight Cactuars over and over. They gave loads of AP for your junction dudes so you could get some big abilities that way.

AP is way better than XP

The cactaur place is actually an island, appropriately called Cactuar Island, and can be recognized by the green thing that teleports around it. Cactaurs give 20 AP apiece but less than 10 exp. So very, VERY good for learning GF abilities.

However, while you need the Ragnorak airship to get to the island proper, which doesn't become available until late in disk 3, you can fight Cactaurs right after you get the Garden airship. Just fly Garden to on the continent just west of that island, which is in the Centra region on the east side of the map, land, equop Enc-None from Diablos, and walk east. There's a narrow cleft in the mountains that block Garden from getting through to a massive desert directly across a strait from Cactaur Island. If you go to the coast on the mainland nearest the Island and turn off Enc-None, you'll still fight Cactaurs, about 1/3 of the way through disk 2, which can improve your powers dramatically.



For the level up debate, I'd say B is most accurate. A isn't accurate at all, as you can certainly win the game even if you level constantly, but C is also inaccurate because lower levels are easier. The more you level, the more draw-grinding you have to do, basically, so while the game is easiest if you stay at very low levels (except Omega Weapon, the most difficult Bonus Boss, who is set at level 100 no matter your level). You need to upgrade your junctions as monsters' level improves, but if monster levels never improve, you never need to upgrade junctions, but you still can upgrade junctions.

[ZeroNumerous]

I vote C as well. Level is, largely, irrelevant if you've broken the game via cards.

[Zeful]

As Glug says AP is better than XP, you get both if you kill the monster, but many monsters have Cards that are worth more than the XP that they give (Fastilons can get you roughly 70-140 water spells a fight if you card them (Water Crystal refines into 50 water and fish fins refine into 20))

[Pechvarry]

My different take -- Step 1: Learn all the "Refine-" abilities. Refining the multitude of items into magic significantly cuts down on "the grind" of stocking spells.

Step 2: Arrange all characters to have an HP-Junction, a STR-Junction, and some Status Defense-Junctions. Load up on HP and killpower, arrange status defenses based on what a boss or monsters in the area use. Smash your way through the game with limit breaks.

And that's it. That's how I played the game the 1st time. I didn't play the card game (I didn't even refine cards until the very end) though I did do a lot more stocking than was necessary (and spent some time at the Island Closest to Hell/Heaven and Cactuar Island).

Just a random note: stocking is boring, but it's nothing compared to other games which require monotonous amounts of killing monsters to get Cloud to level 99 so he can have awesome stats. In FF8, leveling up is hilariously easy and, overall, worthless. I'd rather spend 5 minutes drawing than 15 minutes roaming around for random encounters any day.

Other tips: remember to talk to Headmaster Cid when you graduate as a SeeD.
-Don't miss Diablos as his eventual Enc-Half and Enc-None are nice for not being annoyed. This is entirely convenience.
-Setting the cursor to Memory in config or settings or whatever is wonderful for drawing magic.

[Dairun Cates]

The secret to Final Fantasy 8? Get Zell down to 1 HP somehow and learn how to jam the button REALLY fast to get to limit break (since the time of his limit break is based on how low his life is), loop the heck out of his limit break, finish when you have almost no time left. Laugh as you get around 50 hits of mega damage. Cry if the boss isn't dead.

Then realize that you can just get Quistis to do 9,999 damage per limit break hit no more than a handful of hours into the game and cry.

Really, there's actually a LOT of ways to break FF8. Pick your poison.

[Razaele]

When I saw the thread title I was all, "Oh man, I love FF8. Time to drop some knowledge". And then I read the posts.

...

*slowly starts slinking back into the darkness*

Playgrounders, you never cease to amaze me.:smallamused:

*disappears*

[Another_Poet]

Thanks for the votes guys. I see wisdom both ways, but since I want to do minimal card playing and minimal draw-grinding, I'll stick with method B.

One other question: to Card an enemy I need to weaken it without killing it, but how do I do that if the enemies are all low level and my Junctions are all uber? I mean won't 1 hit just KO a lot of enemies, rendering Carding un-possible?

[Raroy]

Take your junctions off/have weaker junctions when grinding for cards?

Pretty simple.

[Another_Poet]

Take your junctions off/have weaker junctions when grinding for cards?

Pretty simple.


But isn't the whole strategy that I am supposed to Card everything so I don't gain XP? Thus gaining uber junctions versus low level enemies? But I am supposed to remove my uber junctions and never use them because they would prevent Carding....?

[Raroy]

You do that until you get ink none. (No random encounters)

Then you will never have a reason to take the uber junctions off.

[littlebottom]

my standard play through set up is squal with as much strength as possible, zell with as much life as possible (so he can stay on a reasonable amount of health and still get good limits) and selphie because selphie has the "i win" button.

seriously, if you ever get stuck on any enemy or boss in the game and see no other way to beat it (with the exception of a couple bosses, i think the very last plot boss you cant do this on) but otherwise, start selphies limit, and open the playstation lid. then keep swapping her slot till you see "the end" and use it, close the lid, and it beats even weapon... although the likely hood of it turning up is low, thus you open the lid so nothing else can happen while you find it.

[Another_Poet]

You do that until you get ink none. (No random encounters)

Then you will never have a reason to take the uber junctions off.


That makes sense I guess. So early in the game my junctions won't be uber enough to 1-hit random enemies, and by mid-game I will have Enc-None. Is that right?

edit: do enemies have to be below a certain %hp to be Card'ed? Do status effects make it easier to Card?

[NecroRebel]

That makes sense I guess. So early in the game my junctions won't be uber enough to 1-hit random enemies, and by mid-game I will have Enc-None. Is that right?

With a decent magic junctioned to Strength (like Water), you will one-shot weak monsters like Bite Bugs, Funguars, and the like, but they give minimal xp anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Mid-tier enemies usually are brought into carding range from one hit, while higher-tier enemies like dragons and T-Rexaurs take a number of hits to reduce to carding range. Since xp gain is greatest from stronger enemies, you're pretty much fine either way.

Also, you're not likely to have 3 characters with Str-J for quite a while into the game, so if need be your low-Str character can just poke enemies a couple of times if they're not cardable but also can't survive another high-Str hit.

Enc-None is also something that, just for sanity's sake, should be on most of the time except when you're intentionally training. Random encounters in every game have always been more of an annoyance than anything else.


edit: do enemies have to be below a certain %hp to be Card'ed? Do status effects make it easier to Card?

They have to be below an uncertain %hp to be Carded... I suspect it's roughly the same level that your characters would be in the yellow. Status effects do seem to make it somewhat more reliable. Generally, I try to start spamming Card once an enemy is below 50% and usually get it before they die.

[Zeful]

Thanks for the votes guys. I see wisdom both ways, but since I want to do minimal card playing and minimal draw-grinding, I'll stick with method B.

One other question: to Card an enemy I need to weaken it without killing it, but how do I do that if the enemies are all low level and my Junctions are all uber? I mean won't 1 hit just KO a lot of enemies, rendering Carding un-possible?

Scan and an awareness of how powerful you are. I can card even the weak Bug Bites, simply by having Selphie attack them rather than Squall.

Also, Demi. 1 Gesper card refines into 30 Demi, Casting 3 Demi on one monster will reduce it's HP by a significant ammount, and cannot kill the target. Gesper are a level 1 monster card so you'll be seeing a significant amount of them in Balamb. So you could stock up on them.

[Another_Poet]

You guys are both awesome AND brilliant.

I fricking love this forum.

Man I wish I could send this info back in time to my 18 year old self! I would have LOVED that summer if I knew all this... I might not have been badmouthing FF8 for the last ten years, too.

edit: of course if I knew all that back then I would probably have become president by now or something and that's just so stressful, maybe it is better this way.

[Triaxx]

Diablo comes through once again, if you only take him to level 90. He instantly reduces his targets by 90% of their HP.

By the way, look up meteor wing. Much as I hate Rinoa, it's insanely effective.

[NeoVid]

Ah, one of my all-time favorite games, mainly because it had the greatest character-enhancement mechanic ever. Junctioning: Abusable, and useful!

Much as I loved the card game, I didn't abuse it to the degree everyone else here did. The advice you've gotten on cards beats what I had. Just one thing I can add to what you've been told about it: never spread rules unless you want more challenge, and remove rules from places whenever you can.

One thing I'm surprised no one has mentioned: as soon as you can travel by air, go to the islands in the upper corners named the Island Closest to Heaven and the Island Closest to Hell. Turn on Encounter: None and start walking around hitting X. Both islands are completely covered in invisible Draw points of all the game's most powerful spells.

The method I used (and submitted to some guides... surprised more people don't know it) to break the leveling system was this: When you do level, keep one character dead at the time to break the enemies' average levels. I ended up with one character at 65 with everyone else at 100, and crushed everything in my way.

If you do want to level for whatever reason, go to the Island Closest to Heaven, give Quistis low HP and the Initiative ability, and immediately fire off Degenerator at the start of every fight. The enemies on the Island are always level 100, and appear one at a time. If the enemy does manage to attack you before you insta-kill them, just run.

Junctioning things like Sleep, Stop, Blind, Death or Pain to your Status Attack ability= win.

Minor secret: in Esthar city, there's one shop that never opens. Keep clicking on it, and it'll give you a Rosetta Stone.

Lastly, Evasion is overpowered. Evasion of about 12% means enemies miss half the time. Cactuar is the only GF that gets it normally, but the Aegis Armlet item can give it to any GF. 100 Tornadoes on your EVA stat=goodbye to physical damage.

[James the Dark]

One thing I'm surprised no one has mentioned: as soon as you can travel by air, go to the islands in the upper corners named the Island Closest to Heaven and the Island Closest to Hell. Turn on Encounter: None and start walking around hitting X. Both islands are completely covered in invisible Draw points of all the game's most powerful spells.

Not quite. The Islands closest to heaven and hell are not at the corners of the map, but rather, are the farthest west island on the 2D map, and the farthest east. In one corner, there's Bahamut's island, but that's a whole other thing.

[Kobold-Bard]

Haven't read the thread but my strategy (the second time) was:
1. Junction as many Death magicks as possible to Squall's attack, thus meaning his atacks are insta-kill most of the time.
2. Give someone else Diablo that is Lvl 100 (the grind is a git). Now it's attack does 100% (or near enough) of their HP, again insta-kill.
3. For anything immune to this tactic it came down to weakening Squall and then spamming his Limit Breaks.

Walked through the game, which was awesome because my housemate was playing at the same time and he was just awful. So even more satisfaction was had.

[Triaxx]

ST-Atk-J with Squall is useful no matter what spell you slap in there. Blind is great if you've already berserked the target. Makes them completely harmless.

[JadedDM]

Strange game, this Final Fantasy VIII. It seems the only winning movie is to not play.

How about a nice game of chess instead?

[Another_Poet]

Strange game, this Final Fantasy VIII. It seems the only winning movie is to not play.

How about a nice game of chess instead?


JadedDM, I don't know if anyone else got this, but you have threadwin here as far as I'm concerned. Nicely done.

@everyone: WOW. What a difference. I had no idea this game could be this much fun. I've just earned my SeeD rank and have been assigned the mission to Timber, so I'm still near the beginning but it has been so awesome.

The Awesome So Far...
100 tornado's on Squall's HP means I can leave him at normal hp for his level (~600) and he is always ready to limit break. Ridiculous! I scored probably 200 AP off the spider robot in Dollet and I wasn't even good at destroying it. I could've gotten probably 400 or more if I had restarted from the save point and really concentrated on it.

I'm actually enjoying the card game. I read a guide, learned some strategy and feel I can reliably beat most players or get a draw in a worst case scenario with the good ones. I accidentally abolished the Open rule in Balamb (grr) but now that I have SeeD rank income I can just pay the Queen to put it back.

I'm refining like mad. I can't believe I never understood the relative value of the GF abilities before. I used to concentrate on things like SumMag+, GFHP+, and straight +% to different stats. Instead now it's Ref and Stat-J abilities for the win. I already have 100 Blind on my attacks, 105% Ice reduction (=5% absorption), etc. It's ridiculous how strong you can be in this game. So awesome.

I still hate all the characters. I just want to vent about this publicly to ease my mind. Feel free to disregard, but here's the cast so far:

The Worst Cast Eva
-Squall. Squall doesn't like to answer people's questions or talk to people. This makes him antisocial, and a jerk. I can forgive someone being a jerk. But only to a point. When Quistis takes him to the secret spot in the training center after his SeeD inauguration, she tells him that as of midnight she's been fired. She says she was told she has no leadership qualities. He doesn't answer. She asks if he'll say anything. He then insults her by saying he doesn't need to talk to her. She asks if he'll at least listen. He does, and after she unburdens herself he turns away from her and says, "People need to take care of themselves." SQUALL IS AN ASS.

-Quistis. The 18 year old teacher who hits on male students ("Boys always get nervous when I'm assigned to this test with them. Maybe it's my charms?" "Let's go to the secret area, just you and me. No, I won't tell you why...") and then gets upset when she is fired from her position. She mostly seems likeable just because Squall and Seifer treat her like dirt and it makes you feel bad for her.

-Zell. This guy chooses to fight unarmed in battle zones where the enemy has guns and man-eating robots. That's enough to make me hate him.

-Selphie. One of the better characters, only because there is so little substance there, so she looks nice compared to the other characters who have LOTS of substance that just makes them look like JERKS. She does wear a skirt to the battlefield, but as far as I can tell that is required uniform for female students (*sigh*) so she gets a pass. Also her Garden Festival page is kind of cute. Dammit Selphie, why does the school spirit captain have to be the most likeable character?

-Seifer. Seifer would actually be a better hero. I was thinking about his character after the Dollet mission. Really the reason he is a jerk to the other students is just defensive. He's been on the SeeD test like 5 times and failed every time. He watches kids who hate battle and are filled with fear pass. He loves battle, it's the thing he does best, yet he can't pass. There's a good reason he can't pass (won't follow orders) so it's not like he's perfect. But he is so understandable. If I failed the bar exam 5 times I would make fun of lawyers and give first-year law students a hard time about how hard it will be. Unfortunately they choose to make him the bad guy. Not just at Balamb but as I recall he'll end up working for the sorceress. So the most sympathetic character here (though he has his bad qualities like cheating or running off on his own - a classic antihero) is the one we have to hate. While the one who is inferior to him in every way (worse gunblademan, less experienced in battle, less sympathetic motivations, scared to fight, can't speak up for himself) is the hero we're supposed to take through the whole game. WOW, Squaresoft. Just wow.

-Rinoa. Only "good" character I really like so far. She was so forward at the dance that I just can't help respecting her. Of course in Japan that would make her antisocial as well, and cause embarassment to Squall, so really she is also a jerk. But in America we just call that sexy. Okay Rinoa, I heart you. So far Squall's romance toward Rinoa is the only character plot I feel invested in, and that's because of Rinoa, not because of Squall. To be honest it would be a better game if Seifer was the main character and after being thrown out of SeeD he went and fought for the Owls as a rebel, thus meeting Rinoa and falling in love. Then he would have something to live for after losing everything at Balamb, and a reason to worry about dying in battle, which he never cared about before. The his old rival Squall would show up as the SeeD that the Owls hired and he would have to partner with him while competing with him for Rinoa. Wow, that would be a good game. I just came up with that on my coffee break at work and it's better than the entire main character arc of all of FF8. Shame on you, Square. Shame.

-Cid. Cid has been the genius magitek inventor (FF6), the unflappable veteran god of war (FFT), the world's first astronaut - with a harpoon, a chain smoking habit and a talent for piloting anything that moves (FF7) and now.... a pudgy old man in a sweater vest. A SWEATER VEST! I weep for Cid in this game. Arguably he's still better off as headmaster in 8 then he will be in 9, when he spends most of the game as an adulterer who has been turned into a pile of sentient goop. I'm sorry Cid. I will remember you as you once were, not as they have remade you.

Okay so that's why I hate every character in the game (just about). I forget the other characters except that I know one of them is a sniper who refuses to take a shot that will save the world, so I think I'll just club him down to 0 hp and leave him dead for the whole game at my earliest convenience.

And with that rant over, let me add... I am still having the time of my life playing this game. The junction system, as it meshes with the card game, the battle system, the Draw ability and the refining system, is so strategic it's brilliant. And it's strategic in a different way from any other game.

Thanks for showing me how to play this, everyone. I knew I was missing something. It felt like I was locked out of a party and now I have the key. It is awesome.

[ZeroNumerous]

Stuff about the cast

There's something you should remember: None of the playable characters are adults. Not a single one.

Don't read the following unless you want to be massively spoiled.

Every one of them is, by and large, a child emotionally and mentally due to junctioning damaging their memories.

About Squall in particular: He's an ass because the only childhood memory he has is of a girl he loved abandoning him. He lacks parents, he lacks friends and lacks any semblance of emotional support. He has lived totally alone as far as he knows, and it's the only thing he knows. That's why it's the only way he can respond, as his emotional growth has been stunted to ridiculous levels.

About Quistis in particular: She's eighteen, lacks childhood memories and fell in love with one of her students for an unknown reason. The most recent memories she has involves her appearance and sexuality(the fan club, falling in love with Squall, dealing with lots of students only two or three years younger than herself). She lacks the capacity to make friends with non-faculty as she's in a position of power relative to them, and lacks the capacity to empathize with the rest of the faculty as they either non-humans or significantly older than herself. The only reason she's even a teacher is because she feels responsible, and not because she's an adequate or even useful leader.

About Zell in particular: Magic. You live in a world where you can conjure a barrier capable of stopping bullets, where you can be empowered to physically destroy giant robots with your fists and are capable of summoning monsters. Guns level the playing field, but when the playing field is Mount Everest compared to the African savannah... Well, you'll need a -lot- of Gun to level it out.

About Seifer in particular: Seifer is the boy playing at adulthood. He wants battle, but doesn't acknowledge the horrors of it or the responsibility needed to clean-up afterwards. He wants to be the best, but expects to get there completely on his own without any assistance from anyone else. Seifer hates Squall because Squall is superior to him (every fight they have ends in Squall's victory) and he cannot cope with that fact. He joins the big bad because he has a childhood dream of being a 'knight', but has none of the honor or code of ethics involved with being a 'knight'. Like you said, Seifer is interested in battle and nothing else. He's a blood knight (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight) and those guys are never good guys.

About Irvine in particular: He's recently been reunited with all of his friends and none of them remember who he is. As far as he knows, he's become a forgettable nobody and it has a drastic effect on his emotional health. Combined with the fact that he is being told to assassinate his surrogate mother: Well, it certainly makes his unwillingness to pull the trigger much more forgivable.

About Rinoa: You picked the worst possible character and love her the most. I believe you have missed the point of the game. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Poet: Well, you pretty much hit the reason why the game is so universally reviled; the cast is horrible. It's a fine strategy game, but as an RPG it's...about as far from "fulfilling" as humanly possible.

@ZeroNumerous: Yeah yeah spoiler etc:
This is all an opinion of yours truly and should be treated as nothing more; phrasin "X is" includes an invisible "in my opinion..." - repeating it a dozen times would get tedious so I'm just writing this instead.

Then again, the fact that the cast is a bunch of petulant children is why the game is so bad, IMHO. Square's choice to create a completely inappropriate group of folk to save the world was...well, just bad.

Looking at FF6 or FF4 any other good FF, the cast is about a 1000 times more appropriate (save for the obligatory comic reliefs) for the job; FF8's cast is like 8-Bit Theater's Light Warriors. Wrong people for the job forced through the crappy plot with a bunch of stupid deus ex machinas.

Sure, their state is understandable, but that just means they shouldn't be main characters in the first place. Their state is understandable and they are very humane within the influence of the GFs, but that doesn't make them any more engaging or appropriate for the role they simply are woefully bad for.

[Another_Poet]

Started reading zero's spoiler because I've played pretty far into the game before. Stopped when i realized I'd forgotten most of that and it will be more fun to learn it in-game.

But definitely intend to come back and read both spoilers later...

[Zeful]

Poet: Well, you pretty much hit the reason why the game is so universally reviled; the cast is horrible. It's a fine strategy game, but as an RPG it's...about as far from "fulfilling" as humanly possible.

I disagree, mostly because I used to be (and in some fashion still am) Squall.

[Another_Poet]

I disagree, mostly because I used to be (and in some fashion still am) Squall.

In what regard?

Are you just an introvert, or are you an autistic amnesiac?

[ZeroNumerous]

@ZeroNumerous: Yeah yeah spoiler etc:
Things about the story

Again: Don't read this unless you want to be spoiled.
Everything you said about them being horrible people to save the world is true... if the story was about saving the world.

FF8 isn't a story about saving the world. Sure, they save the world, but it's only the MacGuffin of the real story: The story of growing up. They are kids in the beginning, and act appropriately. However, they do eventually grow up to become adults. Flawed adults, yes, but as the story progresses they strive to become something more than what they were. In fact, I distinctly remember Squall(Mr. "People should rely only on themselves") giving orders to protect the children in the Garden-v-Garden battle and relying on Zell(of all people!) to protect the woman he loved. Saving the world is what they do, but it is not the point of the story.

This is, in part, why Seifer is the villain. He refuses adulthood and refuses any responsibility for his actions. He absolutely refuses to grow up and desperately clings to a dream which he romanticizes instead of facing the reality thereof.

In closing: I agree, they are a horrible choice to save the world. But who else can do it? The SeeDs as a whole lack organization or leadership after 2/3rds of them were destroyed or assimilated by the Big Bad. Most of the adults either want to destroy the SeeDs(Sorceresses / NORG) or surrender choice to the teenagers(Cid) and the only people willing to help are in no position to do anything(the Owls/Galbadia's displaced headmaster/Trabia).

They're children being forced to save the world. They just have to grow up a little first, and that's where the story comes in.

EDIT:
In what regard?

Are you just an introvert, or are you an autistic amnesiac?

That made me laugh entirely too much despite being entirely inappropriate.

[Triaxx]

Personally, I find the romance too much like Twilight, only in reverse. Rinoa's a parasite, trying to change him into what she want's not because she feels anything but because she thinks that's what she needs.

Yes, Squall is a moron. No one will dispute that. The fact that the game feels the need to change that so rapidly is what really bugs me. But I won't spoil it.

[Cespenar]

I like Rinoa because she tries to change the most idiotic person in the world into a (somewhat) better person. She aspires to the impossible, and succeeds.

[ZeroNumerous]

Yes, Squall is a moron. No one will dispute that.

I'll dispute it. He's not an idiot. He's a child. There's a massive difference between the two.

[Eldariel]

@ZeroNumerous:

Everything you said about them being horrible people to save the world is true... if the story was about saving the world.

FF8 isn't a story about saving the world. Sure, they save the world, but it's only the MacGuffin of the real story: The story of growing up. They are kids in the beginning, and act appropriately. However, they do eventually grow up to become adults. Flawed adults, yes, but as the story progresses they strive to become something more than what they were. In fact, I distinctly remember Squall(Mr. "People should rely only on themselves") giving orders to protect the children in the Garden-v-Garden battle and relying on Zell(of all people!) to protect the woman he loved. Saving the world is what they do, but it is not the point of the story.

This is, in part, why Seifer is the villain. He refuses adulthood and refuses any responsibility for his actions. He absolutely refuses to grow up and desperately clings to a dream which he romanticizes instead of facing the reality thereof.

I agree with you there, but that's what I find to be the problem; it misleads the player. Final Fantasy places certain expectations which the game does not fulfill; generally Final Fantasies are, as the name suggests, world-shattering epics rather than teenage dramas.

I wouldn't play Final Fantasies if I wanted a drama, and as such, I felt hugely let down when I found out I wasn't playing a Final Fantasy but...well, what the game turned out to be. I still have trouble classifying it.


In closing: I agree, they are a horrible choice to save the world. But who else can do it? The SeeDs as a whole lack organization or leadership after 2/3rds of them were destroyed or assimilated by the Big Bad. Most of the adults either want to destroy the SeeDs(Sorceresses / NORG) or surrender choice to the teenagers(Cid) and the only people willing to help are in no position to do anything(the Owls/Galbadia's displaced headmaster/Trabia).

They're children being forced to save the world. They just have to grow up a little first, and that's where the story comes in.

Indeed, and this is what I hate about the game; why did Square choose to write it so that people not fit for the job not only try to save the world, but succeed?

Frankly, that was the first time in the history of the series where I found losing out to be the more interesting option. And the whole "saving the world"-part of the story really felt a bit tacked on.

As you said, the story isn't really about it...I'd argue that the story would've been better if it hadn't been tied to the whole deal in the first place and if they made Ultimecia into some a bit more connected villain.


But...I digress.

[Another_Poet]

That made me laugh entirely too much despite being entirely inappropriate.

The thing is, I don't think it's even an inappropriate question. If someone speaks up after the rant I made about Squall and says, "I used to be like that, and kind of still am" I think it requires some explanation. He (the character in the game, not Zeful) is so messed up in so many ways that anyone comparing themselves to him must have a heckuva story to tell. I wanna hear it! :smallsmile:

Of course, if Zeful really is like Squall then he probably won't share the story... or even reply to the post. *scratches head*

[Comet]

I dislike Rinoa because she's getting kidnapped or something to that effect all the time.

The game was advertised as a love story. I was pretty dissapointed to see that this was not really the case, as the main love interest was off-screen more often than not. I really would have liked the developers to give a bit more focus to the romance and the characters. I ended up dropping the game at the beginning of the last disc because the story was replaced by fighting some monsters from the moon and time-travelling sorceres or something to that effect.

Maybe I should try it again one day. Then again, my discs are scratched. Damn.

[ZeroNumerous]

@ZeroNumerous:
As you said, the story isn't really about it...I'd argue that the story would've been better if it hadn't been tied to the whole deal in the first place and if they made Ultimecia into some a bit more connected villain.


But...I digress.

@Eldariel
I agree that Ultimecia is mostly just randomly dropped on the player, but I feel that she coincides with the "growing up" theme fairly easily. After all, I didn't really feel like an adult until I realized I had been paying my own bills and living in my own home for two years. Like Ultimecia, it just popped into my head one day that I was actually responsible for myself.

But that's just my interpretation.

As for why they succeed: Well. Would you play a game where the only outcome is failure? I certainly wouldn't enjoy it. Even if it's a bit contrived, I'd prefer the possibility of success over the inevitability of failure.

[Raroy]

Personally, I find the romance too much like Twilight, only in reverse. Rinoa's a parasite, trying to change him into what she want's not because she feels anything but because she thinks that's what she needs.


just liek al wemon am i rite

If you put in a large amount of effort into justifying and interpreting a bad plot to have value and significance, you just might be looking too far into it. It's like that one starwars special that talked about how the prequels were symbolic and ahead of it's time, it doesn't stop the fact that the movies were bad.

Artsy does not equal quality. Especially if that is all it is.

Though if you skip the plot and break the game like a pro, the game can be quite fun.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel
I agree that Ultimecia is mostly just randomly dropped on the player, but I feel that she coincides with the "growing up" theme fairly easily. After all, I didn't really feel like an adult until I realized I had been paying my own bills and living in my own home for two years. Like Ultimecia, it just popped into my head one day that I was actually responsible for myself.

But that's just my interpretation.

As for why they succeed: Well. Would you play a game where the only outcome is failure? I certainly wouldn't enjoy it. Even if it's a bit contrived, I'd prefer the possibility of success over the inevitability of failure.

@Zero:
Well, by failure I mean they do whatever and then the game gets Deus Ex Machina'd to the end somehow. But...yeah.

And...well, I digress. I think we agree on all points and just view things differently. My loathing of the game as a whole definitely doesn't help in objectively viewing the whole, but I know some people like the game regardless. So...yeah.

[ZeroNumerous]

My loathing of the game as a whole definitely doesn't help in objectively viewing the whole, but I know some people like the game regardless. So...yeah.

I wouldn't know about that. I just play it as a card game now. :smalltongue:

[Kobold-Bard]

I wouldn't know about that. I just play it as a card game now. :smalltongue:

Last time I played FF8 it was before Ifrit and I said I'd play Triple Triad until I lost or beat someone who didn't have any new cards to give me.

I played for 6 hours straight in Balamb Garden before that happened and had umpteen cards, 100 of loads of magic types and more Screws than I could ever hope to use.

[ZeroNumerous]

I played for 6 hours straight in Balamb Garden before that happened and had umpteen cards, 100 of loads of magic types and more Screws than I could ever hope to use.

Try Doctor Kodiak or whatever her name is. She's -always- sporting level 6-7s and routinely surprises me.

[Zeful]

In what regard?

For a few years I was playing at being an adult the same way Squall was at the beginning of the game. I didn't want anybody's help and didn't care about their problems. I was also a massive introvert, only speaking when it was demanded of me, not because I wanted to. Human contact was abhorred and avoided in every fashion. It took a very lively woman who wouldn't take "No" for an answer for me to start opening up and start being a kid again.

So, yeah.

[Another_Poet]

For a few years I was playing at being an adult the same way Squall was at the beginning of the game. I didn't want anybody's help and didn't care about their problems. I was also a massive introvert, only speaking when it was demanded of me, not because I wanted to. Human contact was abhorred and avoided in every fashion. It took a very lively woman who wouldn't take "No" for an answer for me to start opening up and start being a kid again.

So, yeah.

Wow, thanks for an insightful answer. That makes sense. I'm glad you met your Rinoa! Are you two still together?

Did you get her a blue shirt with wings printed on the back?

[Totally Guy]

My younger brother liked Headmaster Cid a lot. He was definitely his favourite character.

__________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/cidstupid.png

[ZeroNumerous]

Did you get her a blue shirt with wings printed on the back?

I loathe you for that reference. :smallamused:

[Triaxx]

I hated Rinoa not because of that, but Squall was already on the way to recovering before her 'intervention'. He'd realized what had caused it and would have solved his problem without her 'help'.

I don't have TVTropes access at the moment, so someone else will have to link to Strangled by the Red String.

[ZeroNumerous]

Strangled by the Red String.

Obligatory (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrangledByTheRedString).

Spoilers:
My dislike for Rinoa stems from my assessment of the series as a whole. As I said before: The characters strive to grow up, but Rinoa does not. Rinoa is a child in the beginning, and maintains her childish aura even in the face of adversity. Not even becoming a sorceress or being possessed by Ultimecia breaks her of her desire to have her cake and eat it too.

Even at the final battle with Seifer, Rinoa still tries to save him.

I feel that Rinoa should have been a villain alongside Seifer, as she represents much of what he does. The only reason difference is Rinoa's willingness to go with the flow versus Seifer's unwillingness to be shoehorned into a stance or position by others.

[littlebottom]

ok, im really bad at the card game i keep loosing, at best drawing. ive won like once in 30 games. i try to do the "same" and "plus" but it never works, so whats the secret?

[Whoracle]

I have yet to loose a single game with the following tactic (granted, I just arrived in Timber, but I beat the Doctor in Balamb more than 300 times to date...):

Cards (values in order: top / right / bottom / left):
- 1 Ifrit 9/6/2/8
- 2 Cactorius 8/8/4/4 (Card the ice-based enemy in the fields directly around balamb garden)
- 3 Wendigo 7/?/1/6
- 4 Archeodinos 7/2/3/4
- 5 $high_wildcard; i use a Steel Giant 6/5/5/6
play them as follows most of the time (fields are numbered top to bottom, left to right):
Ifrit to #9
Cactorius to #7
Wendigo to #8
Archeodinos to #4
$wildcard to snipe
?????
PROFIT

I hope it works as well for you as it did for me.

[tyckspoon]

ok, im really bad at the card game i keep loosing, at best drawing. ive won like once in 30 games. i try to do the "same" and "plus" but it never works, so whats the secret?

Your problem is playing with Same and Plus (alternately, your problem is trying to make use of them when they're not actually in play. Protip: You do not want them in play.) Those two rules make it semi-impossible to properly control the game.

[Kobold-Bard]

Never ever play cards in Trabia, the damn Random rule will make you want to throw your controller at the wall.

[ZeroNumerous]

Never ever play cards in Trabia, the damn Random rule will make you want to throw your controller at the wall.

Unless you get the Card Queen to abolish the Random rule in Trabia. In which case you can get Selphie's card!

[Another_Poet]

ok, im really bad at the card game i keep loosing, at best drawing. ive won like once in 30 games. i try to do the "same" and "plus" but it never works, so whats the secret?

Step 1: Read this (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/10404) easy guide to learn how to win

Step 2: Get rid of the Same and Plus rules, or play somewhere else. The method for getting rid of them is in that same guide. The best rule is Open and the best trading rule is Diff.

I too was terrible at the card game, but that guide got me on track. In about 5 games I was a pro and I never, ever lose now. Worst case is draw, and even that is rare.

[ZeroNumerous]

Step 1: Read this (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/10404) easy guide to learn how to win

My only complaint about that guide is that it doesn't suggest using the starter deck. Personally, I love the starter deck as it requires some serious luck or strategy on your part to win with it.

[Another_Poet]

My only complaint about that guide is that it doesn't suggest using the starter deck. Personally, I love the starter deck as it requires some serious luck or strategy on your part to win with it.

That's fair, but it does teach you how to look at your opponent's moves, see the pattern, and play appropriately; as well as how to get a flip that can't be flipped back by waiting for them to box in a corner card.

With those two pieces of knowledge you could choose to use the starter deck and play well, if you wanted, and disregard the advice on getting the good cards.

BTW that guide really pushes getting a Shumi Tribe card, which required carding about 40+ battles in the Training Center for me, and getting 2 bomb cards from the Fire Cavern, which I skipped. Those three cards aren't that important. With Ifrit and some of the basic cards you can get by until you get Quistis and Minimog. You'll probably win a few Bomb cards anyway, so no need to card in the Fire Cavern. And an Elastoid is a better buddy than a Shumi Tribe card, at least for the amount of work it takes :)

So yeah, the guide isn't gospel, but it is right on about strategy and best rules.

[ZeroNumerous]

Now I want to play Final Fantasy 8: The Cardening once more... Lemme go dig my disks out of storage.

[Another_Poet]

Okay so here is a question for everybody.

I'm about to do the Timber mission and I could start to refine my uber cards (character cards) into REALLY good spells. Junctioning them would put me off the charts. But then I've ready I can't get the cards back until Disc 4.

Worth it? Or just keep my card collection strong?

[ZeroNumerous]

Worth it? Or just keep my card collection strong?

Depends on the cards in question. Personally? I'd keep them. But your level 5 or lowers can be freely destroyed.

[tyckspoon]

I'd keep them. Mostly because, IIRC, none of the character/GF cards you have access to at that point turn into anything really awesome spell-wise, at least not with the junctions you'll also have available. Turning Zell into Hyper Wrists can be handy if you really need a shot of Strength, but that's the only one I'd consider, and if you have good junction magic already you won't need it.

[Another_Poet]

Yeah that's true. I have good junctions already. Junctions can always be upgraded, but a Zell card is forever.

Zell Card. To tell her you love her.


edit: Tyckspoon, this is long overdue. I should have said this like a year ago.

You have the best avatar on the boards.

[NecroRebel]

I've always avoided refining the unique cards, myself. Nothing they give is particularly important, except perhaps the... I think Laguna and Gilgamesh cards are the ones that give Heroes and Holy Wars? and even those can be done without until the last couple of discs and the Bonus Boss, when the important stuff can be gotten other ways.

Besides, it's kinda funny to play a deck with 5 cards with As on them against someone whose highest number is a 6 :smallwink:

[ZeroNumerous]

I think Laguna and Gilgamesh cards are the ones that give Heroes and Holy Wars?

Angelo becomes 100 Elixirs and Bahamut, I believe, becomes 100 Mega-Elixirs. The first is a near gamebreaker due to being available at Timber.

[Another_Poet]

Angelo becomes 100 Elixirs and Bahamut, I believe, becomes 100 Mega-Elixirs. The first is a near gamebreaker due to being available at Timber.


What is so great about Elixirs? Sure, healing plus fixing all status ailments, but really that's not THAT great. It's just one item instead of an item + Esuna.

Do Elixirs refine into some kind of awesome magic?

[Zeful]

Unless you get the Card Queen to abolish the Random rule in Trabia. In which case you can get Selphie's card!

Or you can do it yourself. I'm currently working on getting rid of random in Dollet so I can pick up Siren to finish my deck (Currently Siefer, Quistis, Ifrit, Diablos, Malboro). That guide I and Poet linked tells you how.

[tyckspoon]

What is so great about Elixirs? Sure, healing plus fixing all status ailments, but really that's not THAT great. It's just one item instead of an item + Esuna.

Do Elixirs refine into some kind of awesome magic?

I don't think Elixirs can be refined into any kind of magic, which is weird; you'd think you'd at least get Full-Life or Full-Cure from them if you were crazy enough to sacrifice them. Still, I don't see how 100 Elixir is really any more game-breaking than the other stuff you can do with cards; if you've been following the advice, you'll have enough HP/Vit/Spirit junctioned to make you functionally unkillable by even-level enemies anyway.

[Triaxx]

Dollet is a pain until you remove Random as well.

[ZeroNumerous]

Still, I don't see how 100 Elixir is really any more game-breaking than the other stuff you can do with cards; if you've been following the advice, you'll have enough HP/Vit/Spirit junctioned to make you functionally unkillable by even-level enemies anyway.


What is so great about Elixirs? Sure, healing plus fixing all status ailments, but really that's not THAT great. It's just one item instead of an item + Esuna.

Elixirs remove the entire point of even having the magic skill until you get Meltdown. No need to heal via spells when you can just pop an Elixir and not deal with it anymore.

[NeoVid]

There's something you should remember: None of the playable characters are adults. Not a single one.

Don't read the following unless you want to be massively spoiled.


I've always found it frustrating when people say that the characters of 8 are badly written because they don't like them, when most of the main characters are brilliant renditions of people with crushing psychological problems. All of the PCs are traumatized war orphans, with the safety of the entire world forced onto a bunch of kids who can barely handle normal lives. That's the whole point of the characterization.

Squall stood out for me, as he's one of the most disliked characters in history due to being a very good depiction of a depressive. Having personal experience with depression, he was lucky to be as functional socially as he was.

Irvine was the other one to make big impression, since when the world was counting on him... he's paralyzed by an anxiety attack, something else I can unfortunately relate to.

That said, I had no idea a lot of people disliked 8's storyline. Not counting 11, I've beaten every FF from 6 through 12, and 8 was my favorite, mostly due to its having the most involved, engaging plot.

My second favorite thing about it was the fact that it had the most useful/abusable power-up system I've ever seen in an RPG, which let me smash my way through the part of an RPG I don't care about (the combat) and speed my way back to what I play them for (the plot).

[Another_Poet]

I've always found it frustrating when people say that the characters of 8 are badly written because they don't like them, when most of the main characters are brilliant renditions of people with crushing psychological problems. All of the PCs are traumatized war orphans, with the safety of the entire world forced onto a bunch of kids who can barely handle normal lives.

I have two problems with that characterization.

First, these brilliantly & properly fleshed-out war orphans are unbelievable. Not because of their psychoses, which make perfect sense, but because SeeD trusts them to go to the battlefield. An entire organization that makes its profit through mercenary activity--and is well aware of the risks that GFs pose--doesn't have any kind of plan for handling soldiers using GFs? I'm not even saying SeeD should offer pyschological treatment, I can picture a mercenary company cutting corners on that, but if their entire force uses powers that erase memory and destabilize the psyche then they need to have tactics to make use of a force with those issues. The most basic such tactic would be to always have redundant forces. If Irvine has a panic attack and can't take the shot, no problem, that is why 2 other teams with 2 other snipers are on different vantage points in the area.

Instead the explanation is that Cid (I think) hoped the important job would cure Irvine of his problem. That says first of all that SeeD hasn't studied the effects of GFs on their soldiers, or they would know that doesn't work. It says secondly that Cid is incompetent for not sending a backup squad just in case. And most importantly it says that SeeD as an organization, and Squall's team as characters, can't possibly exist because SeeD would have been annihilated or bankrupted a decade before the beginning of the FF8 storyline. You just simply cannot ignore the basic working of your own military technology (GFs) or the malfunctions of your soldiers and see your military outfit remain competitive and profitable.

This would almost be believable if SeeD were a bunch of guerilla rebels, but they run a school. These kids have been monitored and tested by teachers so thoroughly for so long that Quistis can actually finish her students' sentences for them. Yet in all those years of training no one noticed the psychological tendencies? No one made a note in the kids' personnel records? No one refered them to a program to deal with GF sickness or recommended such a program be started? Um yeah.

My second problem is that an audience always needs someone they can sympathize with. If your cast is a bunch of mentally ill people, then you need to have at least one main character who is either not mentally ill, or learned early on how to cope with it. Someone who can rise above the setback and rally the team. An inidividual taking a bunch of losers and turning them into winners is a classic and well-received storyline. FF8 doesn't seize the opportunity. Squall doesn't fill the needed role at all; the team seems to stick together just because the game says you need X number of characters.

With a hard to believe setting/premise (SeeD and the Garden) and no character for typical people to relate to, the storyline has been set up for failure. It's just bad writing.

[littlebottom]

FF8 is actually my second favorite FF so far. after 7, but thats for different reasons.

admittedly the characters did seemingly moan alot. but it still was something that was handled well. i think what i disliked about the whole thing is the pure coincidence that they should happen to meet back up. every last one of them. in this crack squad there is only 1 who wasnt with them originally and there are only 2 missing. but thats.... do i even have to spoiler this? thats because they are the bad guys, well for a while atleast.

[banjo1985]

Meh I really liked FFVIII a lot, it's probably still my favourite of the series. Entertaining tactical card game (so much so I have most of the old Bandai cards IRL), a good story told well, solid characters who you could sympathise with if not entirely believe in, and a decent battle system. Maybe the fact I played it when I was 14-16 has something to do with my love of it - as an angsty the-world-hates-me-and-I-hate-it gothy teenager I could probably relate to Squall more than was healthy. Either way it's still my favourite, even if the mind-numbing act of drawing masses of spells from enemies made my blood boil.

It was my first entry into the Final Fantasy series, though I've played most of the earlier ones since then...maybe that's why I like it so much when other fans of the series point it out as a bunch of rot. :smalltongue:

[ZeroNumerous]

Complaints about SeeD's efficiency

Before I actually respond, I need to only ask you one simple question: How many Galbadian soldiers have you killed without being injured in the slightest? Did you or did you not destroy a self regenerating mechanical battle tank with just three people?

That's why SeeD is effective. Just one SeeD with just one GF is easily capable of cutting his/her way through an army. When normal countries retaliate against SeeDs they don't invade. They use their own SeeDs or use intercontinental ballistic missiles. Yes, most of the playable characters are mentally unstable. Yes, there's a fairly high chance that other SeeDs are in varying states of instability. But if you want to win a war in which you're hopelessly outnumbered: Do you choose the unstable teenage army and win or do you keep fighting and lose?

Besides that, the Dollet action was actually won by twelve SeeDs(four teenagers per boat, three boats, two instructors per boat). Four teams of three successfully and totally routed the Galbadian Army, and Seifer points this out when you're told to withdraw. The only reason you pull back is because the Dollet ruler capitulated to Galbadia. That fact alone should be reason enough to justify SeeDs existence.


No one refered them to a program to deal with GF sickness or recommended such a program be started? Um yeah.

Would you do it if you knew the risks though? "Sure, you become superhuman but there's kinda maybe the chance of losing all your memories and forgetting about everything you've ever held dear to you." No, most normal people wouldn't give that up. They need people who are dysfunctional to act as soldiers.


... the team seems to stick together just because the game says you need X number of characters.

And because they need to save the world. Saving the world is a terrible plot in the game, but it's a wonderful MacGuffin.

EDIT: Heck, after just a few hours of playing the card game--And I should remind you that this card game is extremely popular among SeeD--I solo'd the Dollet action with just Squall. Including destroying the spider mech on every screen that it was possible. When you have that level of power, your mental instability becomes significantly less of an issue when looking for clients.

[Another_Poet]

Did you or did you not destroy a self regenerating mechanical battle tank with just three people?

I did not. An armour-piercing mounted heavy machine cannon riddled it with holes while I fled after having beaten it down 6 or 7 times. We still don't know if it was destroyed or if it regenerated again; our boats pulled away seconds later.


That's why SeeD is effective. Just one SeeD with just one GF is easily capable of cutting his/her way through an army.

Which is a great asset if you can control it. If chances are the SeeD may choose not to cut through the army, or cut through the wrong army, or forget why they are there - no one is going to pay you money to put that Seed amidst their forces, at least not without a liability clause for damages.


Besides that, the Dollet action was actually won by twelve SeeDs(four teenagers per boat, three boats, two instructors per boat).

The Dollet action was lost. Galbadia accomplished its objective (activating the satellite tower) despite our efforts. As that is the only reason Galbadia invaded, they then offered peace terms to Dollet. The fact that they dictated those terms ("we'll pull out only if the sat tower remains operational") means that they were not routed. If they had been routed they would have had to take whatever terms Dollet offered.

SeeD teams disobeyed orders, ignored mission objective and ultimately failed to help Dollet. SeeD arrived 18 hours after the attack, when Duchal forces had already given up the city and fled to the mountaints, and killed maybe a dozen Galbadians (and possibly one spider tank, possibly not) before leaving and letting Galbadia dictate a treaty to our client. This is not the mercenary company I want to hire to defend my dukedom.


Would you do it if you knew the risks though? "Sure, you become superhuman but there's kinda maybe the chance of losing all your memories and forgetting about everything you've ever held dear to you." No, most normal people wouldn't give that up. They need people who are dysfunctional to act as soldiers.

I agree with you on this. The point is that SeeD and Cid clearly know the side-effects of GF usage, but they haven't taken any precautions. We agree that SeeD knowingly hires dysfunctional people for a good reason; my beef is that any profit-oriented outfit would then develop strategy around using those dyfunctional superhumans in an effective way. SeeD uses them ineffectively in a highly risky way that harms their own clients. Short of government subsidies for the Garden (which are not mentioned or implied in the game) there is no way they could stay in the black.


When you have that level of power, your mental instability becomes significantly less of an issue when looking for clients.

Only if you get the job done. Buying a nuke is a great military investment; buying a nuke with a 30% chance of blowing up on home territory and a 30% chance of not working at all is a bad investment.

[ZeroNumerous]

I did not. An armour-piercing mounted heavy machine cannon riddled it with holes while I fled after having beaten it down 6 or 7 times. We still don't know if it was destroyed or if it regenerated again; our boats pulled away seconds later.

Your team of 3 humans disabled an advanced piece of military hardware without trouble or significant injury several times. The point is: An advanced piece of military hardware is not match for a trio of teenagers. For all intents and purposes, you killed it.


Which is a great asset if you can control it. If chances are the SeeD may choose not to cut through the army, or cut through the wrong army, or forget why they are there - no one is going to pay you money to put that Seed amidst their forces, at least not without a liability clause for damages.

I feel it should be pointed out that the kids involved in the Dollet action were just that: Kids. Not even full SeeDs but just kids training to become SeeDs. And they still decimated the Galbadian Army. Further: Six actual SeeDs(the instructors) were explicitly stated as being there to finish the action in the event that the kids failed to do so. That says something about what Balamb Garden thinks about the effectiveness of SeeDs if they believe the Galbadian Army could be defeated by just six.


The Dollet action was lost. Galbadia accomplished its objective (activating the satellite tower) despite our efforts. As that is the only reason Galbadia invaded, they then offered peace terms to Dollet. The fact that they dictated those terms ("we'll pull out only if the sat tower remains operational") means that they were not routed. If they had been routed they would have had to take whatever terms Dollet offered.

I think you're missing something. As Seifer points out, they were winning the ground war. Dollet capitulated for reasons unknown to the SeeDs, but the SeeDs were not nearly as ineffective as you claim. The fact that Galbadia successfully accomplished their objective had nothing to do with the SeeDs withdrawal as they were not tasked with defending the radio tower and only tasked with defending Dollet itself. In fact, the only reason there were any SeeD units near the radio tower at all was because Seifer disobeyed orders.

You cannot say a mercenary team was ineffective because they could not prevent an enemy from achieving an objective that said mercenaries did not know existed. The mercenaries did, however, do the job they were hired to do: Kill Galbadians.


SeeD teams disobeyed orders, ignored mission objective and ultimately failed to help Dollet.

Granted.


SeeD arrived 18 hours after the attack, when Duchal forces had already given up the city and fled to the mountaints, and killed maybe a dozen Galbadians (and possibly one spider tank, possibly not) before leaving and letting Galbadia dictate a treaty to our client.

They arrived 18 hours after the attack because that was when they were contracted. The actual travel time from Balamb to Dollet is less than an hour. Again: Not the SeeD's fault.

Plus, I dunno about you but I killed a whole lot more than a dozen galbadians. On top of that I killed several monsters and one very large moth-thing. but those wouldn't count as they were done by disobeying orders.


The point is that SeeD and Cid clearly know the side-effects of GF usage, but they haven't taken any precautions.

What precautions can you take against losing your childhood memories? Besides that, I believe you're overplaying the side-effects of GF usage as no one throughout the game loses his/her day-by-day, immediate or week-long memory. I believe memory loss starts at childhood and works it's way forward, which will give a very short operational lifetime to most SeeDs but it's not nearly as bad as forgetting who you're supposed to fight in the middle of a fight.


We agree that SeeD knowingly hires dysfunctional people for a good reason; my beef is that any profit-oriented outfit would then develop strategy around using those dyfunctional superhumans in an effective way.

Which they do as both the Dollet action and the Sorceress assassination plan prove. I feel that the issue isn't with the SeeDs, but rather with their support, intelligence gathering and chain-of-command. After all, Irvine would have successfully assassinated Edea if he had known about her defensive barrier and prepared a second shot. Dollet would have been defended if they had known about the radio tower.


SeeD uses them ineffectively in a highly risky way that harms their own clients. Short of government subsidies for the Garden (which are not mentioned or implied in the game) there is no way they could stay in the black.

That I agree on but for entirely different reasons. The Gardens are massively, ludicrously artistic. Balamb in particular has a massive pillar in the center that serves no obvious purpose except appearance. Then again, it's entirely possible that NORG funds SeeD somehow but that's purely speculation on my part.


Only if you get the job done. Buying a nuke is a great military investment; buying a nuke with a 30% chance of blowing up on home territory and a 30% chance of not working at all is a bad investment.

The nuke analogue only works if we assume the person pushing the button is competent enough to aim it correctly. A nuke goes where it's told and explodes, but if the operator inputs the wrong coordinates...

[Another_Poet]

They arrived 18 hours after the attack because that was when they were contracted. The actual travel time from Balamb to Dollet is less than an hour. Again: Not the SeeD's fault.

Actually they delayed going to help Dollet. SeeD leadership knew as of the morning of that mission that they were hired for Dollet; if they hadn't, they couldn't have told the SeeD candidates that they could test that day. But Squall and the others knew all day long that the test was scheduled for later that day. Squall hadn't planned on it being that day, and when he found out he had to go do the Fire Cave prereq to qualify.

The Dollet mission pulled out at 1700. They were in Dollet maybe an hour. So thjey arrived at 1600.

Squall found out about the test after a morning training session and some time in the infirmary. Let's say noon at the lastest, to have time for all the training withy Quistis and the Fire Cave sidetrip.

Let's forgive any admin time in setting up the test since they would need to outfit the boats and plan the mission regardless of the test.

That means they delayed unnecessarily at least 4 hours from when they could have deployed to when they did deploy. When you client is being driven out of their own city that is pretty crappy.


I feel that the issue isn't with the SeeDs, but rather with their support, intelligence gathering and chain-of-command.

That's exactly my point from the beginning. We all agree that psycho superhumans make great weapons if used properly. SeeD as an organization does a poor job. They do not plan the missions well or give the SeeD soldiers what they need to win given the conditions they are under. Telling 3 anxiety-ridden superweapon teenagers to go assassinate an enemy leader with no support and no intel is not a strategy, it's FUBAR.


The nuke analogue only works if we assume the person pushing the button is competent enough to aim it correctly. A nuke goes where it's told and explodes, but if the operator inputs the wrong coordinates...

Right, that's exactly my point. Cid and SeeD leadership are the ones "pushing the button" on their teenage drama superweapons. But they don't ask what the right coordinates are (or know the specs of the missile, so to speak)...

[Domochevsky]

Isn't the entire Balamb Garden financed by NORG in general? Seeing how he has his "command center" in the middle of it. :smallconfused:

[Triaxx]

Balamb Garden was designed by ancient aliens, as a protective shelter. Thus the funny architechture.

[Another_Poet]

I think NORG's presence does not change the fundamental problem with SeeD.

If NORG is involved in SeeD's organizational structure and executive decisions, it would be in his best interest to keep it running as an efficient mercenary company - both as a source of income and as a deterrent to anyone seeking to attack NORG.

If NORG is not involved, then we're back to the original problem: the normal humans who are involved should want to make a profit, and thus, should actually run their business in a sensible way. Which they aren't.

Okay, maybe I'll get off my soapbox on this issue. It bothered me because it made the premise and setting seem hard to swallow. But it's not really that big a deal I guess.

[ZeroNumerous]

Okay, maybe I'll get off my soapbox on this issue. It bothered me because it made the premise and setting seem hard to swallow. But it's not really that big a deal I guess.

Well you are right. The whole situation is kind of screwed up.

[Another_Poet]

Well guys, last night as I was playing I found myself sitting back, sighing wityh contentment and saying, "I frickin' love this game."

You cannot know just how much of a surprise it was to hear those words come out of my mouth. True, I had beer and percocet in me, so I was feeling good in general. But I used to hate it! And now I am beginning to understand the awesomeness of the plot with its messed up characters and unexplained schizo-visions of Laguna. On my last playthrough nearly 10 years ago I was so frustrated with the mechanics that I couldn't really appreciate this stuff. Now it seems like a gem of my adolescence that I completely missed out on!

I completely forgot that Rinoa was in love with Seifer, not Squall, and that the budding relationship with Squall is her settling for a distant second best, and trying to make him into someone else. It's really a very astute glance into human psychology.

Or maybe I never caught on to that the first time around.

I also really like Selphie now, as the most capable of Squall's newly-trained SeeD force despite her seemingly juvenile comments at times.

Here's a new question for y'all. I'm on Disc 1, and have accepted the mission with Irvine. That means I can walk anywhere around Deling, the Desert, the Tomb, Galbadia Garden, Dollet, and Timber. I cannot access places like Balamb, Winhill, or anywhere else that requires flight or trains to reach.

Where's the best place to farm AP? Vysage in the canyon near the desert seemed promising, but he can't be carded (ugh) so I earns wicked, wicked XP every time I kill him. Fastiticolans net 6 AP per battle, is there anything better I can farm?

Remember, AP only, not XP - if it can't be carded, it's no use to me :)

[Zen Monkey]

Great, I haven't played this game since it was still new, and now I may have to give it another look.

Thanks a lot :smalltongue:

[littlebottom]

Here's a new question for y'all. I'm on Disc 1, and have accepted the mission with Irvine. That means I can walk anywhere around Deling, the Desert, the Tomb, Galbadia Garden, Dollet, and Timber. I cannot access places like Balamb, Winhill, or anywhere else that requires flight or trains to reach.

you could always go try and solve the mystery of the abducted cows!:smallbiggrin:

[Another_Poet]

you could always go try and solve the mystery of the abducted cows!:smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure what this means...

I know there is a UFO sidequest at some point in the game but isn't that much later?

[Mirrinus]

Here's a new question for y'all. I'm on Disc 1, and have accepted the mission with Irvine. That means I can walk anywhere around Deling, the Desert, the Tomb, Galbadia Garden, Dollet, and Timber. I cannot access places like Balamb, Winhill, or anywhere else that requires flight or trains to reach.

Where's the best place to farm AP? Vysage in the canyon near the desert seemed promising, but he can't be carded (ugh) so I earns wicked, wicked XP every time I kill him. Fastiticolans net 6 AP per battle, is there anything better I can farm?

I like the desert next to the Galbadia Prison. Fasticalon-Fs appear in groups of 3 there, for 9 AP per battle. Abyss Worms also show up a good deal of the time, which net 7 AP each, are easy to card, and can be mugged for Windmills to refine Tornado spells.

[ZeroNumerous]

I'd start by nicking Brothers from the Tomb of the Unknown King before you do anything else.

EDIT: And don't forget the lamp if you haven't already used it.

[NeoVid]

Be sure to use Blind during the magic lamp fight. I was never so glad to have 100% Blind on a character's attacks as I was then.

[ZeroNumerous]

Be sure to use Blind during the magic lamp fight. I was never so glad to have 100% Blind on a character's attacks as I was then.

Oh ya. Combining Blind and Protect makes the whole battle a joke. 'Specially when he starts throwing gravity spells and puts you in Critical without being able to kill you.

[James the Dark]

For farming AP, the most entertaining (even if not the most efficient) is the Training Area, with the Card ability. Knock two thousand HP off a TRex and boom, card, 10AP, a usefu card, sometimes decent loot, and it's a lot less tedious than farting around with the fishies.

Once you have a mobile Garden, though, you can really start to rake in the AP. By going to the southernmost continent (Centra) and heading East until the mountain pass, disembarking, then heading through; by then traveling until you are across a narrow strait from an island with a schizoid Cactuar, and then, running so that you are constantly hugging the edge that comes closest to that island, you will fight encounters intended to be faced on that island: In short, Cactaurs. Hundreds of them. Give Squall enough Strength to do 700 damage per hit, and every time his turn comes up, a Cactaur goes down, and you get much closer to many fun and expensive abilities. Abilities like Auto-Haste (refining a Kiros card gets you some of that), and giving whoever takes Diablos Triples in his Hit-J will make somebody else capable of actually hitting the blasted things.

This game is an obsessive gamers dream. If you're willing to look in places the main quest never expects you to look, you can find stuff that will make you chuckle with glee. There are side-quests which I didn't discover until I started playing this game again after shelving it for a decade. I managed to make Squall and Selphie's ultimate weapons in disc 2. Feels good, man.

Now, that aside, even with the logistical issues aside (do you really think the writers were intending this whole child-soldiers thing would stand up to intense scrutiny?), I find that I enjoyed the story. Not because it had grand, sweeping events; no, I enjoyed it because it was subtle. It let things lay for me to find and draw what I would of them. It was never said explicitly that Squall and Leguna were... connected (do spoilers still apply? I never know the etiquette of these sorts of situations), but I figured it out by the way he talked, by the things he thought to himself, and the things Leguna said when you actually track him down. After that, the final cut-scene was almost a punch in the face. Subtlety. Sure, it's hardly as nuanced as it could have been, but at least it didn't assume I was an antisocial idiot (they already had Squall to fill that position).

[Another_Poet]

For farming AP, the most entertaining (even if not the most efficient) is the Training Area, with the Card ability. Knock two thousand HP off a TRex and boom, card, 10AP, a usefu card, sometimes decent loot, and it's a lot less tedious than farting around with the fishies.

As already stated, I am unable to return to Balamb during the current part of the quest so that is out.

To those who mentioned it, I already did the lamp. In fact trying to get the AP for Diablo's Mug ability is why I am farming. I'd like to do that before going after Brothers because I think they have muggable loot? (edit:guess not, according to the guide. So maybe I'll just go there.)

I guess it's fish in the desert for me.

[ZeroNumerous]

I guess it's fish in the desert for me.

After you get Brothers, naturally.

[Another_Poet]

After you get Brothers, naturally.

I was so tired last night I wasn't up for a dungeon. I just did maybe 10 random encounters and turned in.

I did however discover a better source of AP. The Abyss Worm in that same desert! It's vulnerable to Sleep, and my Squall has 100% sleep on his attack. So I just have Squall whack it over and over, with it never waking up, while Quistis Card's it for 6 AP. A really fast easy battle! And unlikew the fishes there is no danger of a crit accidentally killing it (it has like 1500 hp at Level 11)

Sadly the fishes show up sometimes too.... sigh.

[littlebottom]

Use float on the brothers so they stop healing themselves, they heal as long as they are touching the ground so cast float on them and the fight is much quicker