Tales Of Series Thread - INDEEGUNASHUN!!!

[Mirrinus]

I've played lots of RPGs in my life, but one series in particular holds a special place in my heart: the Tales Of series. From the very beginning with Tales of Phantasia all the way to the most recent Tales of Graces, this series has not ceased to impress me with its fun combat system, interesting stories, cool anime openings, well done (eh...most of the time) voice acting, and colorful characters interacting in fun skits. Every game still feels familiar despite it being a different continuity, and obliterating stuff with Indignation will never get old. I was just playing Tales of Symphonia yesterday with a friend of mine who wanted to finish the game before summer sessions started, and I was once again reminded of just how much fun a multiplayer console RPG can be when played with friends.

Perhaps my favorite part the series is the fact that the makers of the game seem to enjoy playfully having fun with their own creation. Cameos, bonus videos, and tons of in-jokes can be found throughout the fandom, including many official works like Tales of Gaiden and Viva Tales Of!

Here's just one hilarious example, an episode of the Viva Tales Of! series, which is a skit-based talk show hosted by Zelos Wilder and Jade Curtis:

Lemon Gumi - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsg1EqVnDVM)
Lemon Gumi - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFKuWnzKGQs)

And that's not even getting into the official crossover games, of which there are several, including the most recent Tales of VS for the PSP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq51VnXpDNA). Actually, come to think of it, I was considering doing a Let's Play of Tales of the World: Narikiri Dungeon 3 after I finish my current LP of Touhoumon. Although, since I'm working off of a mostly Japanese version, I'd probably have to take lots of liberties with the story...in a hopefully hilarious fashion.

So yeah, general Tales discussion thread. What are your favorite games, characters, and OPs? Will we ever see Tales of Graces on American shores? Will Jade ever stop being awesome?

[AlterForm]

Demon Fang!
...Damn, I must be a genius!
Double Demon Fang!!!

:smalltongue:

Only ever played Tales of Symphonia, personally. Great game, amazing RPG. Especially the replayability: I had no idea you could change character control until my second playthrough, and the Devil's Arms quest is a fun secret side quest.

Wish I had the chance to play more from the series; I've only heard great things about the rest, especially since the advent of free-running post-ToS.

[Airk]

I have a Tales of QUESTION.

What do the various words in the titles refer to? Meaning:

"The Abyss" in Tales of the Abyss refers to the Qliphoth (or maybe the Planet's Core)
"Vesperia" in Tales of Vesperia refers to the star, Brave Vesperia, for which Karol's guild is named (For him, by Estelle, thank goodness.)

So what about the others? I've never played them, so I don't have any first hand experience, but I'm generally familiar with the storylines of, well, most of them.

I sure wouldn't mind seeing Graces come stateside, though I don't have a Wii, so it wouldn't be much of a win for me. Sadly, it doesn't seem like Namco is handling the franchise over here very effectively.

Alterform: Do you really not have a PS2? Otherwise, what's standing between you and Abyss and (Uh, if you want) Legendia?

[AlterForm]

Indeed, lack of a PS2. Once I get school supplies and such all paid for, however, I'm thinking I'll use some grad money to pick up a used one for cheap.

"Symphonia" refers to a symphony; a synchronized existence. In terms of the game, it refers to (SPOILERS)how Sylvarant and Tethe'alla (and, to a certain extent, Derrhis Kharlan) exist in a competitive harmony.(/SPOILERS)

[Mtg_player_zach]

Tales of the abyss also is hard to find and costs a lot. But you should get it, its worth it.

Is it just me or is vesperia so much weaker of a game than abyss and symphonia?

[Dihan]

I must express my "INDIGNAYSHUN!!" about Namco and its treatment of Tales fans worldwide. I want Graces. Will we ever get it? No.

The Tales Studio will probably be taking a lot of cuts because of Namco's $21million debt.

[Zevox]

I've only played Symphonia and Vesperia so far, but I love them both, especially Vesperia. That is, so far, my favorite game on the 360, and among my top favorite games ever, having displaced Symphonia from its spot on the top 10 lists I post whenever those threads pop up around here. It's not often that a video game's story has me analyzing it like a piece of literature I read for school, but Vesperia had me doing that with the contrast it set up between Yuri and Flynn, and the themes of self-determination and moral subjectivity it had going linked to Yuri and the gang's actions along their journey, as well as Flynn and the final boss' actions. Thus far I think the only other games to get that sort of reaction out of me are Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3, Persona 4, and Devil Survivor.

As for characters, Yuri and Rita are my favorite characters from Vesperia, Kratos and Raine are my favorites from Symphonia. Though really, when you get down to it, I like the entire cast of Vesperia (except, sometimes, for Karol), and a majority of the cast of Symphonia (just not Collette, Zelos, Presea, or sometimes Regal).

Definitely hope to see Tales of Graces make it over here sometime. In the meantime, I'll have to track down Abyss and Legendia sometime. Though with how many other games I have on my "to-play" list it may be a while before I get around to that.


Is it just me or is vesperia so much weaker of a game than abyss and symphonia?
Can't speak for Abyss, but on Symphonia, I'd go with "it's just you." I found Vesperia to be a significantly stronger game than Symphonia - and considering how good Symphonia was, that's saying something.

Zevox

[Tengu_temp]

I only played Tales of Phantasia on the SNES, but it's among my favorite SNES games (the other two are Chrono Trigger and FF6). I knew this game was something special the moment I heard SNES actually talk to me! I love the gameplay (though the random encounter rate is very high, Holy Bottles are vital), the characters are likable, and the whole game has a feeling of wonder and adventure to it. And the music, oh yeah, the music. Fighting the Spirit is one of the best battle themes ever.

[Celesyne]

I Have played Tales of Phantasia (own), Tales of Destiny (own), Tales of Destiny 2, and Tales of Symphonia. I have Tales of Legendia sitting on my table right now, I have yet to start it. Tales of Destiny, being the first I ever played, is by far my favorite though. The characters and storyline are amongst the most fleshed out and entertaining I have had the joy of playing. So, can anyone tell me what I have to look forward to in Legendia?

[Dairun Cates]

Hey. A Luke Hair-cutting joke. NICE.

[Airk]

I've only played Symphonia and Vesperia so far, but I love them both, especially Vesperia. That is, so far, my favorite game on the 360, and among my top favorite games ever, having displaced Symphonia from its spot on the top 10 lists I post whenever those threads pop up around here. It's not often that a video game's story has me analyzing it like a piece of literature I read for school, but Vesperia had me doing that with the contrast it set up between Yuri and Flynn, and the themes of self-determination and moral subjectivity it had going linked to Yuri and the gang's actions along their journey, as well as Flynn and the final boss' actions.

I come down on the flipside here - I thought Vesperia was weak and failed to follow through on its themes. Yuri gets played the hypocrite by Phaeroh, but never seems to notice, his vigilantism never really gets addressed while Flynn basically gets stuck holding the Stupid Ball. If Flynn had been developed more strongly and not played the dupe for Alexei (thereby practically being a villain) through half the game, the theme might have come off being more effective instead of presenting itself as some sort of "You gotta **** the man! 'cause if you don't take matters into your own hands, you'll be suckered into doing bad things and never actually accomplish anything! And bad people will run amok and never get punished!" Oh, and there won't ever be any consequences for breaking the law, so as long as your conscience is clear, go for it!

I'm pretty sure that WASN'T the message they were trying to convey. So thumbs down for successfully executing the theme. Also, the entire "third act" of the game with the fetch quest for the 4 spirits and the adephagos and Duke is basically a big "erm, well, we don't really know how to continue working with our theme, so we're just going to throw in a nonsentient world destroying force to keep you occupied for the rest of the game." Thumbs down for that too. Really. The final boss had no business even being the final boss.

Also, sadly, I felt like Yuri and Flynn started off with a decent dynamic, but then Flynn spends the whole middle half of the game not making his own decisions, and then disappears for most of the last act. ("Yeah. I've got important things to do organizing this little town. Yuri, you go save the world, okay?"). Flynn was far and away my biggest disappointment with Vesperia. I can see what they WANTED to do, and they didn't accomplish it, in my eyes.



Though really, when you get down to it, I like the entire cast of Vesperia (except, sometimes, for Karol),

On the other hand, I'm with you here - except that I would amend it to "emphatically except for Karol" who I really couldn't stand, even after he completed his so-called character arc. I find Yuri somewhat overrated though, as he's basically a hypocritical snarker who everyone likes because he's sarcastic and not a whiny teenager. (Okay, he -does- get serious points for encouraging Estelle to make her own decisions based on her own information. That was important and even contributed effectively to the theme, but it's a relatively minor part of the game.)


Can't speak for Abyss, but on Symphonia, I'd go with "it's just you." I found Vesperia to be a significantly stronger game than Symphonia - and considering how good Symphonia was, that's saying something.


I haven't played Symphonia, so I can't say whether Vesperia was a weak game compared to it, but it was a weak game compared to Abyss, which not only handled its theme with much more grace and effectiveness (Actually tying the whole game to it, instead of having the absurd third act) and which, truthfully, blows the Vesperia cast out of the water. I really like Rita and Estelle, but the degree of charisma and sense of connectedness from the Abyss cast completely overshadows Vesperia, which too often ended up being "Yuri and Judith's babysitting camp, with snarky comentary by Raven." Everyone in Abyss was in it for a reason, right up until the very end. It was personal and it mattered. In Vesperia, it just felt like the World Was In Danger, and since we were The Party, and the Only People With An Airship, that it came down to us to fix it.

To me, Vesperia just felt like it couldn't keep its eye on the ball. It had moments that really worked, but overall just couldn't seem to keep it together. Maybe they fixed this in the PS3 version, which as best as I can figure, must have massive plot rewrites since Flynn is in the party a lot of the time, but A) It's Japanese only and B) Patty Fleur is a devourer of souls. :P

Oh, and as an aside, the Vesperia movie wasn't any good either. The only good thing about it was Puppy Repede.

[Oregano]

If Namco had any sense they'd have a Tales game lined up for the launch of the 3DS, even a port but nope, the franchise wasn't on Nintendo's list so I doubt they will do. Idiots.:smallannoyed:

[Zevox]

I come down on the flipside here - I thought Vesperia was weak and failed to follow through on its themes. Yuri gets played the hypocrite by Phaeroh, but never seems to notice,
Quite the contrary. Unless you're referring to something besides the lines I'm thinking of (the "cutting a bad part from the whole" thing), it seems to me that the extremely close proximity of those lines on Yuri's part is meant to show the player that, when confronted with that part of his developing philosophy thrown back at him by Phaeroh, Yuri changes his mind about it, deciding he had been wrong there. Which in turn is development for him, just not development that they beat you over the head with by having him announce it, and ties in to the theme of self-determination.


his vigilantism never really gets addressed
Sure it does. It carries on with his intent to kill Estelle - halted by the rest of the group, as it turns out for the better - and with Sodia's attempt to kill him, which she immediately regrets. We're shown four instances of such killings or attempted killings thus. The ones Yuri actually commits are probably for the best, although some will likely find them objectionable anyway, including Yuri himself, who clearly was not entirely comfortable with it at first; the third he intended to commit would not have been in the long run, yet Yuri could not have been certain of that at the time; and the fourth failed one shows such a vigilante action being extremely misguided, yet understandable given Sodia's perspective. This is why Yuri does not hold it against her, and instead attempts to encourage her to figure it out for herself, as he has had to with his own actions. Tying in with the moral subjectivity theme, we're not shown this vigilantism in order to beat us over the head with a conclusion that it is always a good or bad thing, but to see multiple situations in which it is used and judge each for ourselves.


while Flynn basically gets stuck holding the Stupid Ball. If Flynn had been developed more strongly and not played the dupe for Alexei (thereby practically being a villain) through half the game,
If you'll permit me to put this in D&D terms for a moment, it seems to me that Flynn was there to show a lawful good counterpart to Yuri's chaotic good. While they were showing Yuri at his worst with his vigilantism, Flynn at his worst got lost in his attempts to climb the ranks of the Knights, failing to question his orders and superior in the process, and thus became Alexei's tool. It is meant to contrast their respective methods and the potential failings of each.

On the flip side, we have Yuri making it quite clear, once Flynn has learned his lesson in this regard and is back on track, that he considers Flynn the better man. See his talks with Sodia about how Flynn would be better off with her by his side than him, since a criminal such as himself has no business being Flynn's friend, or his admiration for Flynn's work once he is at the top of the Knights' ranks near the end and helping to build and organize that city.


the theme might have come off being more effective instead of presenting itself as some sort of "You gotta **** the man! 'cause if you don't take matters into your own hands, you'll be suckered into doing bad things and never actually accomplish anything! And bad people will run amok and never get punished!" Oh, and there won't ever be any consequences for breaking the law, so as long as your conscience is clear, go for it!

I'm pretty sure that WASN'T the message they were trying to convey.
I agree, but I also don't think it's the message they did convey, either.


Also, the entire "third act" of the game with the fetch quest for the 4 spirits and the adephagos and Duke is basically a big "erm, well, we don't really know how to continue working with our theme, so we're just going to throw in a nonsentient world destroying force to keep you occupied for the rest of the game." Thumbs down for that too. Really. The final boss had no business even being the final boss.
I disagree - Duke and the third act were there to continue the self-determination and moral subjectivity themes. Duke was no villain, not some cackling evil person who wanted to kill everyone out of hate or just for fun or anything of the sort, yet he arrived at the conclusions he did nonetheless, based on his own perspective, which you learn about over the course of the third act. Yuri and the others arrived at a different one, based on theirs, and the two thus came into conflict. Their discussion at the end seemed to make it quite clear that ultimately, neither could claim any absolute certainty of any inherent "rightness" to their path - Yuri and the others could not even claim majority support of the rest of the world, since it was likely many would object to the loss of the Blastia. Instead, we get a message or the subjectivity of morality. One of my favorite lines of the game is one Yuri says just before facing Duke's third form (the one you fight if you acquired all the Fell Arms) - "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." Presume the "sword" line can be taken as a metaphor for something along the lines of "the rest is action" and that would accurately sum up my own view of morality, and is, I'd say, the ultimate "message" of the game, which each of the major themes ultimately ties into.

Zevox

[Eliirae]

To each their own. To me it sounds like you just have an issue with vesperia, Airk, because most of the "thumbs down" points you give it are in virtually every other RPG out there. But I'm not trying to argue or point fingers here, so I'll be good :P

---

I've only ever played Abyss and Vesperia, and I like them both...Can't really decide on which I like best, honestly. I really don't like how Namco's been treating everyone lately..."You want Tales... Series? Too bad! We're gonna release a WESTERN style game because we KNOW that's what you want! We aren't even going to advertise it outside of E3 and then complain when it doesn't sell well!"

I've come to terms with never getting a US release of PS3 Vesperia, but I still want Graces >_<

[Mirrinus]

There's a chance we'll still see Tales of Graces here, given that Nintendo Magazine has hinted at an European release currently in the works, and that the subsequent trademark has been claimed.

[Dihan]

Official Nintendo Magazine have been wrong in the past. They'll be wrong this time. Besides, Namco would never give us a game without giving it to the US a year or so before us.

[Oregano]

My personal theory is that Namco expected Nintendo to pick up the game for localisation because of Monster Hunter Tri, Dragon Quest IX and Samurai Warriors 3 but Nintendo looked at what happened with Symphonia where Namco ported it to the PS2 and put the following games on the PS2 despite the massive success of the game in the west and figured it wasn't worth it because Namco would probably put the next game on the competitor's system anyway. Rumours about a new PS3 game called Tales of Unitia probably don't help(especially considering Unitia was an alternate name for Graces).

Well there's my conspiracy theory of the day. Also Namco trademarked the game in the west just to mess with us.

[Flarowon]

So, can anyone tell me what I have to look forward to in Legendia?

Well, I liked it. It's a good game, it has a good plot, and the 'eres' (special attack/magic) system works well, in my opinion. And then there's the little joy of being able to [Mild Spoiler] Punch the friggin' sea god in the FACE! [/Mild Spoiler]
My only problem with t is that halfway through, you finish the main plot and move on to the 'character quests' which are fun, provide backstory on the characters, and still has a (new) overarching plot. But all the voice acting stops and you just fight the same enemies as before but stronger.

[Airk]

Quite the contrary. Unless you're referring to something besides the lines I'm thinking of (the "cutting a bad part from the whole" thing), it seems to me that the extremely close proximity of those lines on Yuri's part is meant to show the player that, when confronted with that part of his developing philosophy thrown back at him by Phaeroh, Yuri changes his mind about it, deciding he had been wrong there. Which in turn is development for him, just not development that they beat you over the head with by having him announce it, and ties in to the theme of self-determination.

Sure doesn't seem that way to me, since there's no supporting evidence for this. He doesn't come off thoughtful, or like he's considered it, he just comes off like he's throwing something he considers BS back at the speaker. Maybe it's the voice actor, but since there's no reason to believe he has changed his viewpoint, having him suddenly come out and state it just makes him look hypocritical. Such a large change should not be handled by just having the character say one thing at one point and another thing at another. _Could_ you read it that way? Yes, but the game does a bad job of supporting that view.

That's really my problem with the whole game. Good ideas, bad follow through.



Sure it does. It carries on with his intent to kill Estelle - halted by the rest of the group, as it turns out for the better - and with Sodia's attempt to kill him, which she immediately regrets. We're shown four instances of such killings or attempted killings thus. The ones Yuri actually commits are probably for the best, although some will likely find them objectionable anyway, including Yuri himself, who clearly was not entirely comfortable with it at first; the third he intended to commit would not have been in the long run, yet Yuri could not have been certain of that at the time; and the fourth failed one shows such a vigilante action being extremely misguided, yet understandable given Sodia's perspective. This is why Yuri does not hold it against her, and instead attempts to encourage her to figure it out for herself, as he has had to with his own actions. Tying in with the moral subjectivity theme, we're not shown this vigilantism in order to beat us over the head with a conclusion that it is always a good or bad thing, but to see multiple situations in which it is used and judge each for ourselves.

Again, from my perspective, this all comes off as "Yuri can do no wrong." When YURI takes out vigilante justice on someone, it's the right decision. Even if he's not comfortable with it at first. When SOMEONE ELSE tries it, it's wrong.



If you'll permit me to put this in D&D terms for a moment, it seems to me that Flynn was there to show a lawful good counterpart to Yuri's chaotic good.

Yes, that's clearly what they were GOING for, and again I assert that Flynn comes off looking more like Lawful STUPID than Lawful Good. Compromising your own principles and doing what you clearly think is wrong (if you stopped to think) isn't being lawful good, it's being, to continue the alignment theme, Lawful Neutral, where you just do as you're told because them's the rules.


While they were showing Yuri at his worst with his vigilantism,

But Yuri's vigilantism is never portrayed as BAD. The worst that ever comes of it is Flynn giving him a stern look and Yuri essentially saying "Yeah, I'd do it again, too."



Flynn at his worst got lost in his attempts to climb the ranks of the Knights, failing to question his orders and superior in the process, and thus became Alexei's tool. It is meant to contrast their respective methods and the potential failings of each.

But again, they fail, because YURI DOESN'T FAIL. He achieves exactly what he wants and what he set out to do, and suffers no consequences for the route he chose.



On the flip side, we have Yuri making it quite clear, once Flynn has learned his lesson in this regard and is back on track, that he considers Flynn the better man.

Again, that's nice. Yuri considering him a better man is a great consolation prize for accomplishing nothing through the whole game, isn't it? Unless the player has some reason to at least consider the possibility of Flynn as the better man, all the words just don't add up to anything.



See his talks with Sodia about how Flynn would be better off with her by his side than him, since a criminal such as himself has no business being Flynn's friend, or his admiration for Flynn's work once he is at the top of the Knights' ranks near the end and helping to build and organize that city.

Yeah, and the net result? Everyone I've ever spoken to about this HATES SODIA.



I disagree - Duke and the third act were there to continue the self-determination and moral subjectivity themes.

But that's not the theme, really. The Theme is about Justice. Or at least, it is for the first two acts.



Duke was no villain, not some cackling evil person who wanted to kill everyone out of hate or just for fun or anything of the sort, yet he arrived at the conclusions he did nonetheless, based on his own perspective, which you learn about over the course of the third act. Yuri and the others arrived at a different one, based on theirs, and the two thus came into conflict.

Except, really, there's no reason for the conflict, because A) It's never made clear why you need to go to the Final Dungeon to execute your plan and B) It makes no sense that Duke would want to stand in your way unless he IS in fact a villain and has it in for humanity. It's not a case of "there's only time to try ONE person's plan" or something.



Their discussion at the end seemed to make it quite clear that ultimately, neither could claim any absolute certainty of any inherent "rightness" to their path - Yuri and the others could not even claim majority support of the rest of the world, since it was likely many would object to the loss of the Blastia. Instead, we get a message or the subjectivity of morality.

Which, when you get right down to it, doesn't need to happen, for the reasons stated above.



One of my favorite links of the game is one Yuri says just before facing Duke's third form (the one you fight if you acquired all the Fell Arms) - "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." Presume the "sword" line can be taken as a metaphor for something along the lines of "the rest is action" and that would accurately sum up my own view of morality, and is, I'd say, the ultimate "message" of the game, which each of the major themes ultimately ties into.

I think this last bit reveals a lot. You already fundamentally agree with what the game is trying to say, so it's easy for you to fill in the blanks. I was looking for a balanced, thought provoking presentation of the relative pros and cons of Yuri's view vs Flynn's, and to me, the game simply fails hard at that - since it doesn't present Flynn's choices as being effective. Then it goes on to discard the entire "law vs personal justice" theme (Incidentally the one the producers claim to have had in mind when making the game.) in favor of a weakly presented "Well, WE CHOOSE to do this!" shouting fest at the end of the third chapter. (A third chapter which is very light on references to the theme at all, except at the aforementioned boss battle, since it's all about getting the 4 magic macguffins.)

Eliirae: Yes, I have an issue with Vesperia. That issue is that I didn't like it very much and didn't think it was a well put together game. :P It pretty much sold me a 360 and I was excited to play it, and I kept waiting for it to start working, and it just didn't. The mid-game leading up towards the battle in the Capital came close, because it actually showed Flynn accomplishing something for once, but mostly, it kept trying to "tell" us that, no no, Flynn is the 'better man' and has made the 'right choices' then presenting us with piles of contradictory evidence. So if that's an "issue" then you're right. If you think there could be some -other- reason for me not liking it, I'd love to hear what your speculation is for what that could be. I could be a Square Enix employee! Except then why would I think Abyss was so good? I could be... uh.... hell if I know. Seriously, what "issue" could I have other than not enjoying the game as much as I wanted to? My two "thumbs down" points appear in every RPG? Nonsense. Most RPGs fail to effectively demonstrate their theme? That's patently false. Most RPGs pull a world destroying force out of nowhere because they can't think of anything else to do? Maybe, but not the GOOD ONES. And the mediocre ones usually aren't trying to present a theme, so the "OMG! World eating badguy!" reveal is less jarring. It's because Vesperia tried to do something grand that I think it didn't succeed. If it were just a fluff game with no attempt at presenting a message, then the whole "Collect 4 magic crystals to use to defeat the Giant Space Flea From Nowhere!" wouldn't have bothered me at all, because that's what you DO in fluff games. It's only when you try to hold Vesperia to a higher standard that it falls down.

Which brings me around to a point that often gets lost in my Vesperia conversations - I _still_ don't think the game is BAD. Fundamentally, the pacing is awkward and the theme is poorly executed, but it's still fun to play, has a mostly likable cast, solid mechanics (Though I could've done without the item grinding er...crafting system), plenty of interesting side quests, and it's really pretty. I'd play it over 75% of the other RPGs out there. Certainly ahead of any other RPG title I've tried on the 360 (Haven't played Nier, Resonance of Fate or Agarest War though.) I just feel it's a weak title when set up next to Abyss, which really hooked me, sold me, and kept me onboard for the entire game. Heck, if I'd never played Abyss, my expectations of the genre would be lower, and Vesperia would probably look better by comparison, but when the original question is "Did anyone else feel that Vesperia was weak compared to Abyss?" the answer is ABSOLUTELY YES, and this was why.

[Volug]

I just finished Symphonia replay again. Really one of my favorite RPGS.

I got Legendia because of it... And... Well... The characters are amazing (GRUNE), the battles are fun. But the dungeons... If you can call them dungeons, are sloppy. All they are are paths with an abnormally high random encounter rate (couldn't we at least see them like in all the other games?). No puzzles, and if there is a puzzle, the game offers to complete it for you, and the puzzles are either teleport puzzles or those block/mirror puzzles.

But seriously, the biggest thing is that it's just a path, that twists around a lot and sometimes goes off course for a moment for treasure. That's boring.

I really want to like the game =\

I think I'm halfway through it, which is still like 40 hours of gameplay.

Abyss, however? LOVE IT, I can't find it anywhere though, just a rental. Not on amazon (unless I want to pay $60), and not on gamestop.

[Airk]

I've not played Legendia, but I've spoken to a lot of Tales series fans about it, and the story is always pretty similar - "I liked Y and Z, but but X really dragged the game down for me". I don't remember what the specific complaints were (Though 'dungeons' does sound familiar.) but everyone seemed to agree that while the game had a few strong aspects, overall it was just average and not a very strong entry in the series. =/ It's a shame, too, because there aren't really that many Tales Of games available over here.

[Zevox]

Sure doesn't seem that way to me, since there's no supporting evidence for this.
It seems to me that the extremely close proximity of the two lines and the fact that they are nearly identical constitutes such evidence. Yuri has never shown himself to be an idiot, which he would have to be not to notice that Phaeroh was saying something that he himself had just said, what, maybe an hour ago from his perspective, minutes ago from ours?


Again, from my perspective, this all comes off as "Yuri can do no wrong." When YURI takes out vigilante justice on someone, it's the right decision. Even if he's not comfortable with it at first. When SOMEONE ELSE tries it, it's wrong.
You're missing the point then. Yuri was going to do it to Estelle, too. Yes, he was stopped, so that one of the game's main characters wasn't killed, but it was an error of judgment on his part. That and Sodia's similar error in judgment highlights the problem with it: that because such a decision is made by one person, if their judgment is in any way flawed, if their perspective makes them think it is a good idea when information they do not have or would not accept would change that, it can lead to terrible results. What if Yuri's judgment of Ragou and Cumore had been similarly flawed? Indeed, how can he be certain it wasn't? That is the question it begs. Again, it simply does not beat you over the head with a conclusion of the act being universally good or bad, which I very much approve of.


Yes, that's clearly what they were GOING for, and again I assert that Flynn comes off looking more like Lawful STUPID than Lawful Good. Compromising your own principles and doing what you clearly think is wrong (if you stopped to think) isn't being lawful good, it's being, to continue the alignment theme, Lawful Neutral, where you just do as you're told because them's the rules.
...but that's not Lawful Neutral, either. Any lawful alignment can fall into the trap of following rules reflexively - that's one of the failings of the alignment. And Flynn did not "compromise his principles" - he never acted in a way which would overtly harm the people he was trying to help - he simply became so focused on gaining rank so that he actually could make the difference he wanted to make that he forgot to question his orders and superior. Which is understandable given Alexei's reputation and the nature of Yuri's actions - from Flynn's perspective, there wasn't much to question.


But Yuri's vigilantism is never portrayed as BAD. The worst that ever comes of it is Flynn giving him a stern look and Yuri essentially saying "Yeah, I'd do it again, too."
Oh? Then why did Yuri hide it from the rest of the party? Why did he always act as though it was something to be hidden away, something he was ashamed of? He never boasts of what he did. He never seems comfortable with it. Again, the game does not hit you over the head with a "vigilantism BAD" message, but instead provides what I'd say is a more realistic look at it, showing several examples of it highlighting the possible outcomes of it, including the great failing of the fact that those outcomes rest on the judgment of one person.


But again, they fail, because YURI DOESN'T FAIL. He achieves exactly what he wants and what he set out to do, and suffers no consequences for the route he chose.
I do believe you missed the word "potential" in that sentence. And, again, Yuri's intent to kill Estelle, only halted by his party members, not him.


Again, that's nice. Yuri considering him a better man is a great consolation prize for accomplishing nothing through the whole game, isn't it? Unless the player has some reason to at least consider the possibility of Flynn as the better man, all the words just don't add up to anything.
Never accomplishing anything? Without Flynn, the problems he and Yuri had joined the Knights to try and address would remain! It is the fact that Flynn pursued his path, taking the long view and trying to change the system from within, ultimately winding up at the head of the Knights, that allowed him to address those issues and change the world for the better. No, he doesn't join Yuri in stopping the threat to the entire world, but that hardly means he accomplished nothing. Plus, unlike Yuri, he doesn't have murders on his hands, monsters aside.


Yeah, and the net result? Everyone I've ever spoken to about this HATES SODIA.
*shrugs* Can't speak for others, but I don't. She's not one of my favorite characters, but I think she plays an essential role in some of the game's themes which I respect, and her perspective is understandable.


But that's not the theme, really. The Theme is about Justice. Or at least, it is for the first two acts.
I disagree. Aside from the vigilantism matter, there is nothing which would give me that impression. Whereas the contrast between Yuri and Flynn, and in particular Yuri's talks with the Don, decision to leave the Empire to found a Guild, and the whole matter with Estelle needing to figure out what she wanted to do seem to me to have set up a theme of self-determination quite early, and again the vigilantism seems to me to have help set up the moral subjectivity theme also quite early.


Except, really, there's no reason for the conflict, because A) It's never made clear why you need to go to the Final Dungeon to execute your plan and B) It makes no sense that Duke would want to stand in your way unless he IS in fact a villain and has it in for humanity. It's not a case of "there's only time to try ONE person's plan" or something.
Er, you go to the dungeon to stop Duke's plan. And Duke stands in your way because he genuinely believes his plan is for the best. I thought those were both made quite clear.


I think this last bit reveals a lot. You already fundamentally agree with what the game is trying to say, so it's easy for you to fill in the blanks. I was looking for a balanced, thought provoking presentation of the relative pros and cons of Yuri's view vs Flynn's, and to me, the game simply fails hard at that - since it doesn't present Flynn's choices as being effective. Then it goes on to discard the entire "law vs personal justice" theme (Incidentally the one the producers claim to have had in mind when making the game.) in favor of a weakly presented "Well, WE CHOOSE to do this!" shouting fest at the end of the third chapter. (A third chapter which is very light on references to the theme at all, except at the aforementioned boss battle, since it's all about getting the 4 magic macguffins.)
If that is your perspective. But it seems to me that you are either missing or simply not considering enough some of the questions that the game does raise, and how Yuri and Flynn's respective characters and actions do emerge at the end.

But I doubt we will convince each other of our respective opinions. Such is usually the way with opinions like these.

Zevox

[Airk]

It seems to me that the extremely close proximity of the two lines and the fact that they are nearly identical constitutes such evidence. Yuri has never shown himself to be an idiot, which he would have to be not to notice that Phaeroh was saying something that he himself had just said, what, maybe an hour ago from his perspective, minutes ago from ours?

I don't recall them being that close together at all, so this argument needs verification.


You're missing the point then. Yuri was going to do it to Estelle, too. Yes, he was stopped, so that one of the game's main characters wasn't killed, but it was an error of judgment on his part. That and Sodia's similar error in judgment highlights the problem with it: that because such a decision is made by one person, if their judgment is in any way flawed, if their perspective makes them think it is a good idea when information they do not have or would not accept would change that, it can lead to terrible results. What if Yuri's judgment of Ragou and Cumore had been similarly flawed? Indeed, how can he be certain it wasn't? That is the question it begs.

I begs it poorly, because, as mentioned, Yuri always makes the right decisions. He never appreciably doubts. I'm sorry, but his hiding it from the party is because he's worried about their reactions, not because he feels guilty.



Again, it simply does not beat you over the head with a conclusion of the act being universally good or bad, which I very much approve of.

No, but it DOES neglect to point out the idea of consequences, which is a nontrivial part of the equation.




...but that's not Lawful Neutral, either.

Actually it is. Lawful Neutral is the scrupulous following of the RULES. A lawful neutral character follows the rules, because the rules are always right.


Any lawful alignment can fall into the trap of following rules reflexively - that's one of the failings of the alignment. And Flynn did not "compromise his principles" - he never acted in a way which would overtly harm the people he was trying to help -

What are you talking about? He and his subordinates repeatedly attack the party.



he simply became so focused on gaining rank so that he actually could make the difference he wanted to make that he forgot to question his orders and superior. Which is understandable given Alexei's reputation and the nature of Yuri's actions - from Flynn's perspective, there wasn't much to question.

Definitely DO NOT watch the movie, or your whole argument about Alexei goes completely out the window. -_-;



Oh? Then why did Yuri hide it from the rest of the party? Why did he always act as though it was something to be hidden away, something he was ashamed of? He never boasts of what he did. He never seems comfortable with it.

Nonsense. He's completely at home with it. He hides it from the party because he doesn't want to guess whether THEY will be as comfortable with it as he is.



Again, the game does not hit you over the head with a "vigilantism BAD" message, but instead provides what I'd say is a more realistic look at it, showing several examples of it highlighting the possible outcomes of it, including the great failing of the fact that those outcomes rest on the judgment of one person.

One person who always makes the right decisions, unless it's Sodia. Also, there's really only one outcome explored for Yuri: complete success with no consequences. Also, I'm going to have to go back and watch the scene with Estelle again, because I have no recollection whatsoever that there was any sense of vigilantism present there AT ALL.



Never accomplishing anything? Without Flynn, the problems he and Yuri had joined the Knights to try and address would remain!

And they DO remain. They are not resolved. Additionally, it's never really clear from the game what those problems WERE, and indeed, throughout most of the game it's not the knights who are the problem, it's the fact that they are ordered around by the Council, which is completely unchanged.



It is the fact that Flynn pursued his path, taking the long view and trying to change the system from within, ultimately winding up at the head of the Knights, that allowed him to address those issues and change the world for the better.

But nowhere do we get the sense that he's actually done this. Yeah, he's now head of the Knights at the end, but there's no indication that that leads to any actual accomplishment, and it is regarded almost entirely as a sidelight.

Answer me this: Beyond his own self aggrandizement in becoming head of the knights, what does Flynn ACCOMPLISH during the game?



No, he doesn't join Yuri in stopping the threat to the entire world, but that hardly means he accomplished nothing. Plus, unlike Yuri, he doesn't have murders on his hands, monsters aside.

But murders are okay as long as its done for the right reasons! The game all but comes out and states this, so the lack of any stain on Flynn's record in that regard is irrelevant.



I disagree. Aside from the vigilantism matter, there is nothing which would give me that impression.

It was only the entire point of the entire first 2/3rds of the game. Taking action to right wrongs on your own instead of using "due process" or what have you (Because due process is demonstrated as not working.); If every example of authority in the game except for (kindof) Flynn weren't shown as corrupt and useless, then the game would be doing a much more effective job of showing a contrast. As it is, all it does is show one side as getting things done, and the other side as being ineffective.



Whereas the contrast between Yuri and Flynn, and in particular Yuri's talks with the Don, decision to leave the Empire to found a Guild, and the whole matter with Estelle needing to figure out what she wanted to do seem to me to have set up a theme of self-determination quite early, and again the vigilantism seems to me to have help set up the moral subjectivity theme also quite early.





Er, you go to the dungeon to stop Duke's plan. And Duke stands in your way because he genuinely believes his plan is for the best. I thought those were both made quite clear.

But why do we need to stop Duke's plan? Why can't we just knock the Adephagos out of the sky with our plan, and therefore invalidate his plan? Oh! Because it wouldn't actually have WORKED because our plan fails without Duke. But nobody KNOWS that, so... why do we go for the confrontation?



If that is your perspective. But it seems to me that you are either missing or simply not considering enough some of the questions that the game does raise, and how Yuri and Flynn's respective characters and actions do emerge at the end.

Please fill me in on some of these supposed 'actions' that Flynn takes. Really, it all comes down to him. His entire character arc through the game is a long string of failures. Can't do anything about Ragou! Can't do anything about Cumore! Tries to take Estelle back to the capital to lock her up in the palace again (if the game is all about making your own decisions, this one is particularly bad for him.) Does manage to avert war with the guilds by acting as a glorified messenger. Can't stop Alexei! (Does barely manage to keep the Herakles from blowing up the Capital - this is a rare case where both Yuri and Flynn actually influence the course of the game). Can't protect the random people he leads out into the middle of nowhere. He just never seems to catch a break. We have exactly one moment (Herakles) where we say "Whew! It's a good thing Flynn was able to do that!" through an entire 60+ hour game.

So please. Explain to me how Flynn is an effective counterpoint to Yuri, who solves every problem in the game by doing things "His own (rogue) way."



But I doubt we will convince each other of our respective opinions. Such is usually the way with opinions like these.


Fine with me. I actually enjoy the argument. :P

I'm going back to watch the Estelle battle now.

[Airk]

Okay. I just watched the start and the end of the Estelle battle, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO hint that Yuri ever even thought about killing her. I have no idea where your assertion that he was "only stopped by the rest of the party" comes from. That pretty thoroughly undermines your assertion that Yuri made some sort of "error of judgement" here because he didn't. His final words before the fight -starts- are "I'll set you free!" (Translation: I'm not going to kill you.) and he never once seems to even consider the possibility of killing her. In fact, repeatedly, after the battle, he asserts that he won't, nor will he leave her to die.

View it for yourself here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuldpH6UXHA). There's no support whatsoever for any sort of vigilantism directed at anyone other than Alexei, who is pretty much a card carrying, maniacal laughing, war criminal at this point.

Additionally, if you stop and think about it, pretty much every RPG out there gives off a pretty strong "vigilantism is okay as long as people are really evil" message. Vesperia seemed to be trying to give a more balanced perspective, but that's completely beside the point regarding Estelle - there's absolutely nothing there to support that it has anything to do with Vigilantism at all.

Edit: Heck, if you listen to the IN FIGHT Dialogue, he's busy telling her how it's not okay for her to die. How does that equate "was going to kill her and was only stopped by the rest of the party"?

[Zevox]

I don't recall them being that close together at all, so this argument needs verification.
Yuri's original statement was made near the end of the mountain area where you find Judith and Bau'ul (sp?). It was a reference to Judith. Immediately after that you get the ability to fly with Bau'ul, which is all you needed to go visit Phaeroh, which is the next thing you do. So yes, extremely close proximity.


I begs it poorly, because, as mentioned, Yuri always makes the right decisions. He never appreciably doubts. I'm sorry, but his hiding it from the party is because he's worried about their reactions, not because he feels guilty.
Simply put, we will not agree here. It seems to me that Yuri most definitely does have his doubts, but because he is not the type to brood audibly, you are simply missing them. They are revealed in how he pursues those actions silently and in absolute secret, in hiding what he has done from the party, in the atmosphere the game creates around his actions, in his silent moments sitting and thinking before he goes off for each and after returning from the first, and in his words to Sodia about how he, as a criminal, is not worthy of being Flynn's close friend. But if you do not read those things that way, we simply will not agree on the matter.


Actually it is. Lawful Neutral is the scrupulous following of the RULES. A lawful neutral character follows the rules, because the rules are always right.
No. A character who acts that way, and only that way, may be Lawful Neutral, but that is not the definition of that alignment in and of itself, nor is it an accurate description of Flynn.


What are you talking about? He and his subordinates repeatedly attack the party.
Yes. Who are not a bunch of innocent people being oppressed by the Empire, especially in Yuri's case, given Flynn learns of his vigilantism.


Definitely DO NOT watch the movie, or your whole argument about Alexei goes completely out the window. -_-;
Can't speak for the movie, but the game makes it quite clear that Alexei had a huge and positive reputation among the Knights. He was the guy everyone looked up to, a role model and almost hero-sounding figure.


One person who always makes the right decisions, unless it's Sodia. Also, there's really only one outcome explored for Yuri: complete success with no consequences. Also, I'm going to have to go back and watch the scene with Estelle again, because I have no recollection whatsoever that there was any sense of vigilantism present there AT ALL.
*also addressing your subsequent post* The Estelle thing does not occur at the battle scene, but before it. When the party rests at that city with the tree-shield (forget the name), Yuri is shown sitting silently, as he was before each of his vigilante killings, and then going off on his own, the same as he had then. Repede comes with him this time, but that is the sole difference. He heads off towards the castle on his own - but the party catches up with him when he stops to rest in the forest, and proceeds to tell him off for having obviously decided to take Estelle up on her request to kill her, including everyone but Raven and Repede beating the living daylights out of him. They convince him to try and save her instead, which is what you saw in the scenes you reviewed. That is what I'm referring to.


And they DO remain. They are not resolved. Additionally, it's never really clear from the game what those problems WERE, and indeed, throughout most of the game it's not the knights who are the problem, it's the fact that they are ordered around by the Council, which is completely unchanged.
Er, no, not at all. The Council and the Knights were at odds, remember? One was backing Estelle for the throne, the other the prince? The whole problem was that the entire system was corrupt, run by people who only cared about the nobility. With Flynn and either Estelle or the prince (his name escapes me, sadly) in charge, only the Council remains a problem - and since the Knights are the ones in charge of enforcing the laws of the land, having Flynn in charge there does, in fact, take care of the principle problem.


But nowhere do we get the sense that he's actually done this. Yeah, he's now head of the Knights at the end, but there's no indication that that leads to any actual accomplishment, and it is regarded almost entirely as a sidelight.
Except for the above, and his work on that town, and Yuri's plain admiration for his accomplishments in those regards... yeah, I don't agree with your dismissal of these things.


But murders are okay as long as its done for the right reasons! The game all but comes out and states this,
I don't think it does, no. Sodia's attempt on Yuri's life was done for the right reasons - was it okay? Yuri was willing to kill Estelle for the right reasons - was he right in that?


It was only the entire point of the entire first 2/3rds of the game. Taking action to right wrongs on your own instead of using "due process" or what have you (Because due process is demonstrated as not working.);
Simply put, I do not think that was the entire point of any portion of the game. It may be the impression you got, but it was not the one I did.


If every example of authority in the game except for (kindof) Flynn weren't shown as corrupt and useless, then the game would be doing a much more effective job of showing a contrast. As it is, all it does is show one side as getting things done, and the other side as being ineffective.
I would contest the "every authority" thing by pointing to Estelle, the Prince, and the Don, but this is beside the point. Yes, the Empire was corrupt - that was the whole reason Yuri and Flynn joined the Knights, remember? If that weren't the case, the problems that originally motivated each of them would not exist.


But why do we need to stop Duke's plan? Why can't we just knock the Adephagos out of the sky with our plan, and therefore invalidate his plan? Oh! Because it wouldn't actually have WORKED because our plan fails without Duke. But nobody KNOWS that, so... why do we go for the confrontation?
Giant flying city currently syphoning the life out of the planet is kind of an issue that needs addressing, and, if I recall, time was needed to set up the system that allowed them to change all of the Blastia into summon spirits to begin with. They may not have had time to carry out their plan had they not gone to stop Duke's.


So please. Explain to me how Flynn is an effective counterpoint to Yuri, who solves every problem in the game by doing things "His own (rogue) way."
I covered Flynn above, but the main thing is that Yuri does not solve every problem in the game. He is incapable of solving the issue that he and Flynn were originally focused on - the corruption of the Empire's system of rule in the Knights and Council. He can't simply kill everyone who happens to be corrupt. As Flynn highlights early on, the path he takes can help people in the small scale with this problem, individual by individual, but cannot address the core problem permanently. That is for Flynn to do once he becomes commander of the Knights. That is Flynn's great accomplishment. Everything Yuri does aside from stopping the Aedephagos would be for nothing without Flynn. Ragou, Cumore, and Alexei were only a few individuals, not the entirety of the Council or Knights. And with both the Council and Knights corrupt, even having Estelle or the prince on the throne would not likely change much. With Flynn fixing the Knights, though, that dynamic becomes completely different, and the problems of the Empire's rule can be solved.

Zevox

[Airk]

Yuri's original statement was made near the end of the mountain area where you find Judith and Bau'ul (sp?). It was a reference to Judith. Immediately after that you get the ability to fly with Bau'ul, which is all you needed to go visit Phaeroh, which is the next thing you do. So yes, extremely close proximity.

But does the game actually suggest that you go to Phaeroh next? I can't really remember. Just because they -can- be close together due to this bit being relatively open ended doesn't mean they're intended to be.



Simply put, we will not agree here. It seems to me that Yuri most definitely does have his doubts, but because he is not the type to brood audibly, you are simply missing them. They are revealed in how he pursues those actions silently and in absolute secret,

Because, you know, if you're going to go assassinate someone in a town full of guards, the best time to do it is in broad daylight with everyone watching? I don't think this is admissable as evidence.


in hiding what he has done from the party,

Again, there's a difference between guilt/doubt and convenience. It would have been very troublesome for him to try to explain himself, and he probably would've lost a lot of trust. Which would have made the game more interesting, but doesn't make sense from a motivation perspective. This is just the smart way to do what he does and cannot possibly be considered to reflect his motivations.

If I rob a bank in the dead of night, do I go and tell my friends? No. Does that mean I feel any guilt? Absolutely not, it's just be not being stupid.



in the atmosphere the game creates around his actions, in his silent moments sitting and thinking before he goes off for each and after returning from the first,

It's nice to see he gives it some thought, but again...



and in his words to Sodia about how he, as a criminal, is not worthy of being Flynn's close friend. But if you do not read those things that way, we simply will not agree on the matter.

This is a good point, but I feel it's relatively little in the grand scheme of things.



Yes. Who are not a bunch of innocent people being oppressed by the Empire, especially in Yuri's case, given Flynn learns of his vigilantism.

No, but they also created all kinds of problems for the people of Nordopolica and uh...whatever that town in the desert was. I'm sorry, but the knights spend a whole large chunk of time being the bad guys....when Flynn is directly in charge. And not just the "bad guys" from the party's perspective.

And again, we're repeatedly -told- that Yuri is supposedly a wanted criminal, but that never seems to have any effect on his life. He can run around the capital, plain as day, talk to knights, blah blah, etc. Things just don't add up.



Can't speak for the movie, but the game makes it quite clear that Alexei had a huge and positive reputation among the Knights. He was the guy everyone looked up to, a role model and almost hero-sounding figure.

Actually, the game mentions it once, somewhat in passing. Another problem with it was the ineffective buildup of Alexei as a villain - you basically don't hardly see him at all in the first third of the game, someone (Flynn?) gets a throwaway line about how cool he is, and then suddenly he's all but twisting his moustache and tying the princess to the railroad tracks. Once again, we have a very impersonal villain here - if he hadn't kidnapped Estelle, would the party even have been concerned with him?



*also addressing your subsequent post* The Estelle thing does not occur at the battle scene, but before it. When the party rests at that city with the tree-shield (forget the name), Yuri is shown sitting silently, as he was before each of his vigilante killings, and then going off on his own, the same as he had then. Repede comes with him this time, but that is the sole difference. He heads off towards the castle on his own - but the party catches up with him when he stops to rest in the forest, and proceeds to tell him off for having obviously decided to take Estelle up on her request to kill her, including everyone but Raven and Repede beating the living daylights out of him. They convince him to try and save her instead, which is what you saw in the scenes you reviewed. That is what I'm referring to.

I'll look it up. Obviously this scene failed to make any sort of lasting imprint on my mind.



Er, no, not at all. The Council and the Knights were at odds, remember? One was backing Estelle for the throne, the other the prince?

So are the knights corrupt, or aren't they? What are these problems that exist within the knights that Flynn MUST clean up?


The whole problem was that the entire system was corrupt, run by people who only cared about the nobility. With Flynn and either Estelle or the prince (his name escapes me, sadly) in charge, only the Council remains a problem - and since the Knights are the ones in charge of enforcing the laws of the land, having Flynn in charge there does, in fact, take care of the principle problem.

How? Let me put it this way: Either A) Alexei is the beacon of cool that we are supposed to believe he is, in which case, he can't be openly favoring the nobility, and therefore, the knights are already as sorted out as a "good leader" can make them or B) Alexei is actually corrupt (Rather than just being posessed of a scheme to rule the world.) and therefore the various elements that hinge on his being a great leader rather fall apart.

The only thing that changes is that we actually fill the throne, which, truthfully, is not something I really feel like Flynn had much part in.



Except for the above, and his work on that town,

What was up with that town, anyway? It starts out as a temporary encampment, and then all of a sudden it's like "Yay, let's build a new town that's not part of the empire! Because, you know, I'm commandant of the imperial knights and...huh?" And all Flynn's "work on the town" takes place offscreen and we're never even really told (let alone SHOWN) what he actually -does-. Yeah, the town grows and flourishes and stuff, but are we just supposed to take it for granted that Flynn did something to make this happen? We hear he's really busy with administrative stuff, but it's all this very vague, handwavey "Yeah, Flynn is doing good stuff, we promise, but it's boring, so we're not going to tell you what it is." kind of thing.



and Yuri's plain admiration for his accomplishments in those regards... yeah, I don't agree with your dismissal of these things.

Too much telling, no showing. Big flaw overall. And truthfully, it's hard to take Yuri's "admiration" seriously after how he savages Flynn for his decisions throughout the game.



I don't think it does, no. Sodia's attempt on Yuri's life was done for the right reasons - was it okay? Yuri was willing to kill Estelle for the right reasons - was he right in that?

I think you'd find that almost no one agrees with you about Sodia, including Sodia herself.



I would contest the "every authority" thing by pointing to Estelle,

Estelle never has any authority. Not a valid point.


the Prince,

Ioder is in pretty much the same boat as Estelle, but gets some extra figurehead points by being propped up by Flynn.


and the Don,

Commits seppuku, can't keep other guilds in line.



but this is beside the point. Yes, the Empire was corrupt - that was the whole reason Yuri and Flynn joined the Knights, remember? If that weren't the case, the problems that originally motivated each of them would not exist.

Which is why Flynn comes off as so ineffective, yes. He's trying to play by the rules in a system where no one else does.



Giant flying city currently syphoning the life out of the planet is kind of an issue that needs addressing,

Was it ever explained why it also didn't suck the life out of the party?


and, if I recall, time was needed to set up the system that allowed them to change all of the Blastia into summon spirits to begin with.

No recollection of this, though it'd be awful convenient that that system just HAPPENED to be ready immediately after the final battle. Sounds contrived.



They may not have had time to carry out their plan had they not gone to stop Duke's.

Seems like a stretch since the amount of time we see it taking to execute "our plan" is about 2 minutes.



I covered Flynn above, but the main thing is that Yuri does not solve every problem in the game. He is incapable of solving the issue that he and Flynn were originally focused on - the corruption of the Empire's system of rule in the Knights and Council.

The council that hasn't changed?


He can't simply kill everyone who happens to be corrupt. As Flynn highlights early on, the path he takes can help people in the small scale with this problem, individual by individual, but cannot address the core problem permanently. That is for Flynn to do once he becomes commander of the Knights. That is Flynn's great accomplishment. Everything Yuri does aside from stopping the Aedephagos would be for nothing without Flynn. Ragou, Cumore, and Alexei were only a few individuals, not the entirety of the Council or Knights. And with both the Council and Knights corrupt, even having Estelle or the prince on the throne would not likely change much. With Flynn fixing the Knights, though, that dynamic becomes completely different, and the problems of the Empire's rule can be solved.


So are the knights corrupt or not? Was Alexei a good leader (as he was fostering his plan to...take over the world and rid it of corruption). Since his whole "evil plan" was "rule the world to fix the system" he sortof seems like the sort who wouldn't have tolerated corruption within the knights, but we're told there was anyway. So how is Flynn different? And we never really SEE this change. We're told "Yeah, Flynn's cool and stuff" but again... we see clear examples of how Yuri accomplishes things. We never see results from Flynn. If anything, we see Flynn get to the point where MAYBE he can accomplish something real towards his goal and then the game ends.

Too much telling. Not enough showing. Things just don't fit together tightly. Good try, bad execution.

[Zevox]

I get the feeling we're already starting to simply argue in circles here. I'll address parts that are new here, but if this keeps up, the discussion isn't going to go anywhere, so I'll refrain from reposting arguments I've already made that you apparently do not accept to refute arguments you've already made that I do not accept.


But does the game actually suggest that you go to Phaeroh next? I can't really remember. Just because they -can- be close together due to this bit being relatively open ended doesn't mean they're intended to be.
Sure - immediately upon acquiring the ability to fly on Bau'ul, Judith tells you where Phaeroh is, and since finding him has been your goal since the end of part 1, that's the next part of the story.


No, but they also created all kinds of problems for the people of Nordopolica and uh...whatever that town in the desert was. I'm sorry, but the knights spend a whole large chunk of time being the bad guys....when Flynn is directly in charge. And not just the "bad guys" from the party's perspective.
Er, they help the desert town. The Knights were a problem there under Cumore - Flynn arrives intending to deal with Cumore and free the town, but finds Yuri has just killed him (which actually means that you could argue that Yuri's killing of Cumore was unnecessary given Flynn was going to take him in - he isn't a member of the Council, so he may not have been able to protect himself in a trial like Ragou could using political influence, particularly given a fellow Knight of equal rank would be the one bringing him in). The town was even celebrating Flynn and his forces' arrival when Yuri and the others left, remember?

And they do what they can to help Nordopolica, too. Yes, their pursuit of Yuri there is disruptive, but that's unavoidable, and he still does not overtly do anything to innocents there. And the first time around, with the incident in the arena, the Knights help fight off the monsters and restore order.



So are the knights corrupt, or aren't they? What are these problems that exist within the knights that Flynn MUST clean up?
They are - where did I say anything which would imply they weren't? We see them causing problems, save for Flynn and his troops and, occasionally, the Schwann Brigade, the entire game.


How? Let me put it this way: Either A) Alexei is the beacon of cool that we are supposed to believe he is, in which case, he can't be openly favoring the nobility, and therefore, the knights are already as sorted out as a "good leader" can make them or B) Alexei is actually corrupt (Rather than just being posessed of a scheme to rule the world.) and therefore the various elements that hinge on his being a great leader rather fall apart.
I believe you're conflating "reputation" with "reality" here - Alexei has a reputation which puts him as admired, the role model of the Knights. But remember that the Knights are by and large nobility, so of course him being corrupt like the rest of the system is not going to bother them - that corruption favors them, after all.


What was up with that town, anyway? It starts out as a temporary encampment, and then all of a sudden it's like "Yay, let's build a new town that's not part of the empire! Because, you know, I'm commandant of the imperial knights and...huh?" And all Flynn's "work on the town" takes place offscreen and we're never even really told (let alone SHOWN) what he actually -does-. Yeah, the town grows and flourishes and stuff, but are we just supposed to take it for granted that Flynn did something to make this happen? We hear he's really busy with administrative stuff, but it's all this very vague, handwavey "Yeah, Flynn is doing good stuff, we promise, but it's boring, so we're not going to tell you what it is." kind of thing.
It is Flynn's work there, which is meant to help the people who had been victims of the huge monster attack that took place there, which establishes him as a strong leader for the Knights, which in turn leads to his promotion to head of the Knights. And yes, we see him doing some of his work - not an extensive amount, but a little during the main story, and some more when you return to the town after acquiring the Fell Arms.


I think you'd find that almost no one agrees with you about Sodia, including Sodia herself.
Oh, she's plainly ultimately horrified at what she did, for several reasons, but she thought she was doing the right thing at the time. Think about it: Yuri, to her, was a criminal, and one of the worst sort, a vigilante killer. And yet, from what she could tell, Flynn had a soft spot for him, and was protecting him from being brought to justice. Thus, to appropriately punish Yuri for his actions and prevent whatever influence he has over Flynn from going any further, she decides to take matters into her own hands and kill Yuri. Right motivation, but her incomplete perspective on Yuri as a person meant that her action is not one most would find the right one, even if they're willing to accept vigilantism.


No recollection of this, though it'd be awful convenient that that system just HAPPENED to be ready immediately after the final battle. Sounds contrived.
What would be the point of making them wait longer to execute their plan after beating Duke? That was the end of the game.


The council that hasn't changed?
No, but the Knights and the ruler have. Granted, we don't know what the previous ruler was like, but Ioder seems an upstanding person, and Flynn is now in charge of the Knights. And both know full well about the corruption of the Council. That makes two of three major power centers in the Empire now run by good people who aren't going to be condoning the former nobility-centric corruption - enough for change.

Zevox

[Airk]

Just watched the scene in Quoi woods prior to the Estelle fight. (http://www.youtube.com/user/Ramza411sb#p/c/8466C27AC64486D5/172/VIarz6UMtFg) I can see how you might argue that Yuri is -considering- going Vigilante here, but I think you're totally off base. Certainly, nowhere does the party talk him down from the concept of killing her. They all scold/rough up/rage at him for GOING OFF BY HIMSELF. For not trusting them. For trying to play Big Damn Hero. For not being a good Guild member. Karol in particular is raging at him for being a moron because just a few minutes ago, player time, he was telling Yuri "I just don't want to be left behind!" Yuri doesn't even LEAVE the same way he does when he's off to do his dirty work - for that he always waits until everyone is asleep so they don't know he's gone. This time he walks out right in front of Judith at the end of a conversation. There's no hint in there anywhere that any of them even SUSPECT him of thinking about killing Estelle, and frankly, I think you're viewing Yuri as much darker than the game portrays him here.

The only person who suggests it might be necessary to kill Estelle is IODER, and Yuri pretty much gives him a "Shut up or I CUT YOU!" so it's pretty clear to me that that's NOT Yuri's plan. In fact, I don't think he has a plan at that point at all. He's clearly distressed and frustrated, not to mention sincerely furious, and worried about the people from the lower quarter, but He's just trying to be all lone wolf and figure it out as he goes because that's how he was "used" to operating.

So yeah. I think your argument that there's any commentary on vigilantism in that scene is rubbish.

Anyway, with regard to Alexei reputation vs reality, I don't really think it's possible for you to maintain a reputation for not favoring the nobility as head of the guard if you are, in fact, favoring the nobility. Truthfully, I don't really think the idea "Alexei is just so awesome that Flynn never thought to hold up his orders for any consideration" holds any water at all. I'm forced to conclude that either Alexei is part of the problem, in which case Flynn is an idiot, or he wasn't part of the problem, and therefore becoming head of the knights...isn't really a major step.

The scene you reference with Yuri and Flynn in the desert town is later than I was referring to when Flynn's brigade was the one causing problems. There was a serious stint of time where they were directly responsible. You're right about the fact that Cumore probably couldn't have weaseled out of punishment, because if we're to believe the knights are anything like a military, he'd have been looking at a court martial, not some council arrangement. The whole scene bothers me though, because it's pretty ferociously implied that Flynn essentially STANDS THERE and lets Yuri "kill" Cumore. (I mean, he walks into frame like 5 seconds afterwards, and Cumore was SCREAMING.) Which is pretty much exactly what Yuri did. This makes Flynn pretty complicit in the whole thing, and further undermines his position as any sort of juxtaposition for Yuri.

Next up: Watching from Ba'ul to Phaeroh.

[Airk]

Okay; Phaeroh scene (http://www.youtube.com/user/Ramza411sb#p/c/8466C27AC64486D5/140/YH6RdGfv32s). Yeah, it's close by, and there are even points in between where it could be argued that Yuri might be thinking, but his whole delivery is really just a "**** you, Mr. High and Mighty. Who are you to decide who lives and who dies?" Yuri is very territorial. He hates it when "outsiders" mess around with "his people" and frankly, I don't think he's thinking about the fact that he's being a hypocrite here at all. I think he just wants to bloody Phaeroh's nose for messing with "his people."

[Zevox]

Just watched the scene in Quoi woods prior to the Estelle fight. (http://www.youtube.com/user/Ramza411sb#p/c/8466C27AC64486D5/172/VIarz6UMtFg) I can see how you might argue that Yuri is -considering- going Vigilante here, but I think you're totally off base. Certainly, nowhere does the party talk him down from the concept of killing her. They all scold/rough up/rage at him for GOING OFF BY HIMSELF. For not trusting them. For trying to play Big Damn Hero. For not being a good Guild member. Karol in particular is raging at him for being a moron because just a few minutes ago, player time, he was telling Yuri "I just don't want to be left behind!" Yuri doesn't even LEAVE the same way he does when he's off to do his dirty work - for that he always waits until everyone is asleep so they don't know he's gone. This time he walks out right in front of Judith at the end of a conversation. There's no hint in there anywhere that any of them even SUSPECT him of thinking about killing Estelle, and frankly, I think you're viewing Yuri as much darker than the game portrays him here.

The only person who suggests it might be necessary to kill Estelle is IODER, and Yuri pretty much gives him a "Shut up or I CUT YOU!" so it's pretty clear to me that that's NOT Yuri's plan. In fact, I don't think he has a plan at that point at all. He's clearly distressed and frustrated, not to mention sincerely furious, and worried about the people from the lower quarter, but He's just trying to be all lone wolf and figure it out as he goes because that's how he was "used" to operating.

So yeah. I think your argument that there's any commentary on vigilantism in that scene is rubbish.
I still think you're wrong here. What reason would Yuri have to go off on his own if not because he was planning to kill Estelle? It's not as though he thinks the rest of the group can't handle themselves in this situation or anything. Furthermore, there's the fact that when they approached the capital via Bau'ul, just before Alexei blew them away, Estelle literally asked Yuri to kill her so that her powers could not be used to hurt people. "Please... kill me," remember? The reason Yuri reacts to Ioder the way he does about that is precisely because of this, because he fears he may be right - and because it's Estelle, he's very uncomfortable with that. So yes, I do think that's exactly what was going on there.

Now, I was wrong about the group berating him for it. I thought they had put that together, but evidently they did not. In retrospect, I now recall that Estelle's request that he kill her was spoken pretty softly, so likely Yuri was the only one that heard it, thus why they wouldn't have figured it out. Nonetheless, I maintain that this was still the intent here, and it was only being caught by his friends that prevented him from carrying it out and convinced him to try and save her first.

And I don't think you're right about how he left, either. It was the same, just in this case Judith was up on one of her - apparently very common, given how often you bump into her during them - late-night strolls at the time. Which is why the group caught up with him, most likely.


Anyway, with regard to Alexei reputation vs reality, I don't really think it's possible for you to maintain a reputation for not favoring the nobility as head of the guard if you are, in fact, favoring the nobility. Truthfully, I don't really think the idea "Alexei is just so awesome that Flynn never thought to hold up his orders for any consideration" holds any water at all. I'm forced to conclude that either Alexei is part of the problem, in which case Flynn is an idiot, or he wasn't part of the problem, and therefore becoming head of the knights...isn't really a major step.
What you seem to be assuming here that I'm not is that in order for his reputation to be good he must be known not to favor the nobility. I simply do not see it that way, especially given the Knights consist primarily of nobility themselves.


The scene you reference with Yuri and Flynn in the desert town is later than I was referring to when Flynn's brigade was the one causing problems. There was a serious stint of time where they were directly responsible.
I do not remember such a thing. Could you point me to it?


The whole scene bothers me though, because it's pretty ferociously implied that Flynn essentially STANDS THERE and lets Yuri "kill" Cumore. (I mean, he walks into frame like 5 seconds afterwards, and Cumore was SCREAMING.) Which is pretty much exactly what Yuri did. This makes Flynn pretty complicit in the whole thing, and further undermines his position as any sort of juxtaposition for Yuri.
It seems to me that he simply arrived just at the end of it, too late to do anything about it, and chose instead to confront Yuri about his actions rather than waste his time futilely trying to save Cumore.


Okay; Phaeroh scene (http://www.youtube.com/user/Ramza411sb#p/c/8466C27AC64486D5/140/YH6RdGfv32s). Yeah, it's close by, and there are even points in between where it could be argued that Yuri might be thinking, but his whole delivery is really just a "**** you, Mr. High and Mighty. Who are you to decide who lives and who dies?" Yuri is very territorial. He hates it when "outsiders" mess around with "his people" and frankly, I don't think he's thinking about the fact that he's being a hypocrite here at all. I think he just wants to bloody Phaeroh's nose for messing with "his people."
Sorry, it just does not come off that way to me. It seems that we have two options here: assume Yuri is an idiot and cannot see that Phaeroh is saying exactly what he did just recently, or assume is not and he changes his mind upon being confronted with Phaeroh inadvertently turning his own logic on him. I take the latter, you the former. Not much we can do but disagree.

Zevox

[Airk]

I still think you're wrong here. What reason would Yuri have to go off on his own if not because he was planning to kill Estelle? It's not as though he thinks the rest of the group can't handle themselves in this situation or anything. Furthermore, there's the fact that when they approached the capital via Bau'ul, just before Alexei blew them away, Estelle literally asked Yuri to kill her so that her powers could not be used to hurt people. "Please... kill me," remember? The reason Yuri reacts to Ioder the way he does about that is precisely because of this, because he fears he may be right - and because it's Estelle, he's very uncomfortable with that. So yes, I do think that's exactly what was going on there.

I don't really see any reasoning to support this. Yuri is entirely too territorial for this, but this is interpretation, and pretty broad at that.



And I don't think you're right about how he left, either. It was the same, just in this case Judith was up on one of her - apparently very common, given how often you bump into her during them - late-night strolls at the time. Which is why the group caught up with him, most likely.

I just watched it. You're wrong. He walks right out of the inn in front of Judith, Raven and Rita, saying, "I'm going to go get some fresh air." He does this right after putting Karol to bed saying "We'll go rescue Estelle" and after telling Judith "It's just a matter of making Alexei sorry he ever started this." Judith pokes him with "And nothing more...?" and he walks out. So maybe he's TROUBLED, but he sure as heck hasn't made up his mind, and he -really- isn't making any attempt at sneaking out of town without the party knowing.



What you seem to be assuming here that I'm not is that in order for his reputation to be good he must be known not to favor the nobility. I simply do not see it that way, especially given the Knights consist primarily of nobility themselves.

I think this is wildly incorrect. The average knights are pretty clearly not nobility. I do find this a seriously conflicting concept, because as a leader of a group, it's exceedingly difficult to maintain a reputation for being a good leader if you never actually do anything good.




I do not remember such a thing. Could you point me to it?[/quoute]

Maybe later. I'm getting a little tired of sorting through hundreds of unlabelled "Let's Play" episodes to support my points when you aren't putting forth the same effort.

[quote]
It seems to me that he simply arrived just at the end of it, too late to do anything about it, and chose instead to confront Yuri about his actions rather than waste his time futilely trying to save Cumore.

Possible, but it still makes him accessory to murder. He's less than 5 seconds away at sluggish walking speed. It's not like he couldn't have heard Cumore pleading loudly BEFORE he fell into the pit. Instead, all he does is give Yuri a really weak talking to later, where, basically he says "Yeah but..." a few times, and then rather than take advantage of Sodia arriving to, you know, inflict some consequences like making an arrest, he uses her arriving as an excuse to let Yuri go. It's just another great showing by Flynn. Where's my eyeroll smiley?



Sorry, it just does not come off that way to me. It seems that we have two options here: assume Yuri is an idiot and cannot see that Phaeroh is saying exactly what he did just recently, or assume is not and he changes his mind upon being confronted with Phaeroh inadvertently turning his own logic on him. I take the latter, you the former. Not much we can do but disagree.


There's a critical point you're missing. When it was Judith who was going to be "cut off" by Yuri, that was HIS GROUP dealing with a problem with HIS GROUP. When it's Estelle who is going to be "cut off" by Phaeroh, it's some big creepy monster messing with HIS PEOPLE. It's VERY clear from the tone in this scene and others that Yuri retaliates with venom whenever anyone tries to meddle with "his people" even when they're RIGHT. He resents outside interferance, period. It's his most consistant trait - an ability to easily divide the world into "them" and "us" and protect "us" against "them".

For Yuri, the rules are different for "us" and "them". He makes that clear time and time again.

[Zevox]

I don't really see any reasoning to support this. Yuri is entirely too territorial for this, but this is interpretation, and pretty broad at that.
So then you're asking me to believe that Estelle asking him to kill her, Ioder bringing up that very topic as he is leaving town, and indeed him going off on his own like that, are all pointless and unrelated events?

No, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this one.


I just watched it. You're wrong. He walks right out of the inn in front of Judith, Raven and Rita, saying, "I'm going to go get some fresh air." He does this right after putting Karol to bed saying "We'll go rescue Estelle" and after telling Judith "It's just a matter of making Alexei sorry he ever started this." Judith pokes him with "And nothing more...?" and he walks out. So maybe he's TROUBLED, but he sure as heck hasn't made up his mind, and he -really- isn't making any attempt at sneaking out of town without the party knowing.
All right, I misremembered that. But how is telling them he's just "going to go get some fresh air" when they're going to bed, then going off completely on his own without telling any of them what he's actually doing "not making any attempt at sneaking out of town without the party knowing?" That seems a pretty good definition of the phrase to me.


I think this is wildly incorrect. The average knights are pretty clearly not nobility.
I seem to recall them being said to draw their recruits principally from the nobility, yes. Certainly those we see with actual individual identities, like the Schwann brigade, seem to be.


Possible, but it still makes him accessory to murder.
When he could do nothing at all to prevent it? I'd disagree.


Instead, all he does is give Yuri a really weak talking to later, where, basically he says "Yeah but..." a few times, and then rather than take advantage of Sodia arriving to, you know, inflict some consequences like making an arrest, he uses her arriving as an excuse to let Yuri go.
Yuri is his childhood friend, and he's just seen him do something rather shocking. It seems no surprise to me that he hesitates on how exactly to address it and ends up letting Yuri go for the moment.


There's a critical point you're missing. When it was Judith who was going to be "cut off" by Yuri, that was HIS GROUP dealing with a problem with HIS GROUP. When it's Estelle who is going to be "cut off" by Phaeroh, it's some big creepy monster messing with HIS PEOPLE. It's VERY clear from the tone in this scene and others that Yuri retaliates with venom whenever anyone tries to meddle with "his people" even when they're RIGHT. He resents outside interferance, period. It's his most consistant trait - an ability to easily divide the world into "them" and "us" and protect "us" against "them".

For Yuri, the rules are different for "us" and "them". He makes that clear time and time again.
This is a point where we seem to have a fundamentally different interpretation of Yuri's character, as I did not get that impression of him. He cares about his friends, sure, but "the rules are different for 'us' and 'them?'" Completely not something I see in him.

Zevox

[Airk]

So then you're asking me to believe that Estelle asking him to kill her, Ioder bringing up that very topic as he is leaving town, and indeed him going off on his own like that, are all pointless and unrelated events?

None of it necessarily leads me to believe he intends to DO it, no.



All right, I misremembered that. But how is telling them he's just "going to go get some fresh air" when they're going to bed, then going off completely on his own without telling any of them what he's actually doing "not making any attempt at sneaking out of town without the party knowing?" That seems a pretty good definition of the phrase to me.

Seriously? Announcing you're "going out" isn't going to clue people in when you're not back shortly? No one had actually said anything about going to sleep except Karol, who was already wiped out. If you're trying to make a clandestine escape, you wait for them to sleep. Judith was still prowling around, Raven was sitting at a desk. The only awake person who was even near a bed wa Rita. Yuri has demonstrated he's smart enough be patient in the past, why would he do the opposite now? Unless it's a sort of "Oh please stop me, I don't really want to do this" but that seems really out of character for Yuri.



I seem to recall them being said to draw their recruits principally from the nobility, yes. Certainly those we see with actual individual identities, like the Schwann brigade, seem to be.

So we're supposed to believe that Yuri and Flynn are completely exceptional?



When he could do nothing at all to prevent it? I'd disagree.

He didn't magically appear in that spot after Cumore fell. He was RIGHT THERE. If he was 10 feet away from right there earlier, that's still RIGHT THERE.



Yuri is his childhood friend, and he's just seen him do something rather shocking. It seems no surprise to me that he hesitates on how exactly to address it and ends up letting Yuri go for the moment.

He didn't "just see him"; There was very definitely some time in between for him to muster his thoughts. If the conversation had taken place right on the edge of the sand pit, fine, but he very clearly said "we need to talk, come see me" as a means of buying himself some time. Now I'm not saying that, inherently, I fault Flynn's character for this decision, but the problem is that this is our BEST example of someone who's supposed to be on the straight and narrow path, our only real source of contrast with Yuri, and this scene is a total washout. Instead of being something like "No, the consequence of committing a crime isn't 'becoming a criminal' the consequence of a crime is you get punished." we get "But...Yuri!" He doesn't even talk a good game and then fail to follow through.

This just cuts back to the problem I have with the game. Flynn is not portrayed as EFFECTIVE. He's constantly playing the dupe, one step behind, or helpless. He is an ineffective counterpart to Yuri, who seems to easily accomplish all his goals.



This is a point where we seem to have a fundamentally different interpretation of Yuri's character, as I did not get that impression of him. He cares about his friends, sure, but "the rules are different for 'us' and 'them?'" Completely not something I see in him.

I fail to see how you can miss it in the Mt. Temza scenes with the Hunting Blades, where he basically tells them "**** off, Judith is our problem." even when he's actively considering having to "cut her off." Followed immediately by the Phaeroh scene where, again, it's "**** off, this is our business." Constantly, whenever ANYONE challenges Brave Vesperia, Yuri's line is "This is our problem, you'd better butt out or you'll get hurt." If you want, I can provide you with a big ol' list of scenes.

Anyway: The very fact is that since I've managed to come out with a completely different interpretation, the one you have is clearly far from the only one, and that, to me, indicates that the game doesn't do an effective job of getting its message across to the audience. It does a lot of telling us things, and then showing us no evidence, or worse, showing us contrary evidence. Even simple little things like "In this world, people hardly ever leave the protection of the barriers" except then we spend the whole game interacting with a ton of people who go outside the barriers all the darn time. To the point where I -forgot- that people in this world aren't supposed to travel very much, because every major character does. Even the couple of folks with the wagon-inn keep showing up in different locations.

It's just not that well put together. I'm glad it got through to you, but it really failed with me, and I'm not alone.

[Teutonic Knight]

Just to break it up, and never on any forums have I seen so much text.

And based on the posts here, I was lucky to get Abyss when I did, though I don't remember when. I do remember that I was choosing between it and one of the Xenosaga games. Glad I chose Abyss.

Also have Symphonia, which I like over Abyss because of the more epic story. Abyss is still my favorite in gameplay, cause it started the whole "Free Run" concept, which made battles that much more fun when you could attack, run around him, attack his back, run around, and repeat.

Wasn't sure whether or not to get Vesperia, but decided that none of the characters really appealed to me. I remember first seeing Lloyd on the inside cover of a Nintendo Power. I saved that page until I got Symphonia so that I would not forget what the game was called or looked like. I don't know what attracted me to Abyss; I just probably thought, "Hey, another Tales game, the last one was good, so I guess this will be too." And I was right. As for Symphonia 2, I again thought about it, but after I learned that it featured Lloyd as a villain for a part of the game and only three new playable characters, with the old cast returning only to drop in and out of the main party, AND the monster catching/taming thing, I thought nah.

More to come, if people question my post.

[Mirrinus]

On a related note, has anyone here been watching the anime adaptations of the Tales games? Personally, I've watched all of Abyss, and am currently following the Symphonia OVAs. They're not terrible as far as video game adaptations go, but I wish Abyss had more action. They managed to fit in both of Jade's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFvdH4R92dA) Mystic Artes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaNmLR9U9sM), though, so that was awesome.

[Teutonic Knight]

On a related note, has anyone here been watching the anime adaptations of the Tales games? Personally, I've watched all of Abyss, and am currently following the Symphonia OVAs. They're not terrible as far as video game adaptations go, but I wish Abyss had more action. They managed to fit in both of Jade's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFvdH4R92dA) Mystic Artes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaNmLR9U9sM), though, so that was awesome.

I started watching Abyss during school last year. And I really mean during school. Computer App class. I got to episode 3 when the site told me that I had run out of free viewings. Since then I have not look to Youtube, but plan to if I ever get bored. (Cause I can't seem to find an anime that I like, cause for all the ones I can think of, I like the manga better.)

[Mirrinus]

The Abyss anime follows the plotline fairly closely, from what I can tell. Story-wise, it's a pretty faithful adaptation. I just wish it had better fight scenes. Come on, Luke didn't even get to use a single arte! Jade ended up hogging most of them (not that I'm complaining).

In other news, I've officially started my Let's Play of Tales of the World: Narikiri Dungeon 3 on this forum.

[Cynan Machae]

Damn, that reminds me that I really need to finish the Tales Of Eternia game I stared with my bro

[Airk]

I concur that, at this point, if you own Abyss, you were lucky to get it, because it is well on its way to being one of Those Really Expensive Games.

I one-up your "have your watched the ToA anime" question by, er, having worked on fansubbing team for it. I like to think we did the best job, and we've gotten a bit of praise on it. Our work can be got here (http://www.abyssalchronicles.com/toaanime.php). Feedback is welcome, though we're not going to go back and change anything now. x.x (Note: It took a few episodes to hit stride, so the first couple might be a little rough.) I thought it was pretty good, though the budget was kindof uneven. Oddly, I found myself wishing they HAD cut some stuff from the game, because the pace of the show is really rapid as they rush to fit everything in. Good for fans of the game, not so hot for anyone else.

We also just finished (Like, two weeks or so ago) the Tales of Vesperia Movie, which, frankly, wasn't very good and didn't really seem to line up very well with the characters and stories established in the game. Puppy Repede (http://gallery.abyssalchronicles.com/albums/userpics/10002/c20090909_tovfs_32_cs1w1_640x450.jpg) is pretty awesome though.

Oh, and we're working on the rather old (at this point) ToS OVAs too, though they don't have enough time to be anything other than a sort of 'highlights reel' of the game. (Which I haven't played, so I can't really comment on.)

[Mirrinus]

So apparently the english patch for Tales of Innocence was completed by AbsoluteZero translations this week. And it rocks! Seriously, it's a great translation thus far from what I've seen, and the game itself is very fun. I'm still not sure how they managed to cram Abyss's combat system onto the DS, but it's impressive. So combo oriented, even moreso than most Tales games, I dare say. I think I realized this when I pulled off a 188-hit combo on like the 4th boss or something.

Spada is awesome. He's like Lloyd, except not a goody-two-shoes. And with a cool hat.

[Teutonic Knight]

So apparently the english patch for Tales of Innocence was completed by AbsoluteZero translations this week. And it rocks! Seriously, it's a great translation thus far from what I've seen, and the game itself is very fun. I'm still not sure how they managed to cram Abyss's combat system onto the DS, but it's impressive. So combo oriented, even moreso than most Tales games, I dare say. I think I realized this when I pulled off a 188-hit combo on like the 4th boss or something.

Spada is awesome. He's like Lloyd, except not a goody-two-shoes. And with a cool hat.

Sounds awesome, but where did you get it. Cause I've been bored with my DS games so far and have been to lazy to go get Zero Collection.

[Mirrinus]

The English patch for Tales of Innocence can be found on Absolute Zero's fan translation website. Just google it.

The game's pretty fun. Story's not too bad, dungeons are rather boring, but the combat is excellent. Heavy emphasis on combos, all characters can be fun to play as, and each has their own style and tons of artes to try out. I just unlocked Innocence mode for most of my party, so soon I'll be able to try out their Mystic Artes.

[Mirrinus]

So I finally managed to complete my first run-through of Tales of Innocence, and it was quite a fun trip.

The game's story is kind of short (relative to other big-name Tales games), and the dungeons weren't very memorable, but the battles and boss fights were truly enjoyable. I like how it really rewards good strategy against bosses, as even on just Hard mode many bosses were already capable of 1-shotting my characters (well, I might be a bit underleveled, but still). I walked into the final boss with just 6 life bottles and wiped a few times from her ground-stomp move that does about 900 damage to everyone when only Luca had over 900 HP. But eventually, I worked out a plan to use Lure to get the boss to chase me while casters stand back and stagger the boss with spells, before I waltz in and take advantage with Tempest Strike > Blazing Tempest > Tempest Moon > Infernal Overlord. When the boss went into overlimit, I just parked Luca right in front and blocked/dodged Meteor Storm over and over again to keep the boss from moving on to Iria and Ange (neither of whom can survive the boss's melee combo). The strategy worked, and I only needed life bottles for the few times the boss used that ground stomp move. Felt very satisfying to win like this.

Now to grind some grade for the new game+ options.

[Bad Situation]

Forbidden Guild District...

So not cool.

I went in there completely unprepared and left with only Spada dragging the rotting corpses of the party out.

The bees, oh lord the bees.

[Dihan]

I recently gave in and imported Graces along with the menu translation patch and my own limited knowledge of Japanese. I must say that all the characters are fun to use.

Asbel: Typical protagonist. Easy to use, good survivability, just a general all-round good character.

Sophie: I haven't used her much because I don't really like her, but from what I've seen she's fast and powerful. Her healing is useful too.

Cheria: Probably the weakest attacker but she is able to run and throw daggers at the same time. Her holy magic is amazingly good and her healing isn't too bad once you get Hurtless Circle. She's frail against anything that isn't magic though.

Malik: Love him. His boomerang edge is VERY powerful and his magic is awesome too. The AI kind of sucks with him though which is why I've been using him over Asbel. He has high HP but is otherwise quite frail despite his appearance and personality.

Pascal: She's definitely quirky. Her rifle attacks are fun to use once you get over her initial lack of CC. Her magic is very powerful and it's possible to get her three Blast Caliburs before everyone else gets their second. She has good evasion and the highest magic attack. You'd think that she dies quickly because her magic consists mainly of personal based area of effects but she's usually the last one standing whenever I've had a teamwipe. She's funny. Very funny.

Hubert: The definition of a glass cannon. Very fast. Very powerful in melee. His gun artes are useful for keeping enemies away. I've managed to get 50 hit combos with him because his attacks hit so much. He dies very quickly though.

In my opinion, this is by far the best combat system to date in a Tales game. It's just a shame I have to give myself a headache with all the kanji (katakana and hirigana aren't a problem really - I know katakana reasonably well and Google translate sorts hirigana out quite nicely). Luckily the game has a "hint" system where you can hold Y (on CCPro) and it'll give you a clue about where you have to go next.

[Airk]

ut eventually, I worked out a plan to use Lure to get the boss to chase me...

Ugh. =/ You mean they've added a 'taunt' type effect? I'm so tired of MMO style 'aggro' mechanics. =/

[Bad Situation]

Ugh. =/ You mean they've added a 'taunt' type effect? I'm so tired of MMO style 'aggro' mechanics. =/
It's more of a passive effect, and it works wonders when you want to get some free combos in.

[Airk]

It's more of a passive effect, and it works wonders when you want to get some free combos in.

It's not a question of whether it's EFFECTIVE or not; It's illogical and silly. "Rawr! That guy over there made a rude gesture at me, so I'm going to ignore the person stabbing me in the back repeatedly and try to run over and hit him." That's idiocy. I'd rather have my enemies choosing targets randomly than do something like that.

There are a number of different possible ways to approach aggro mechanics and crowd control (they go together) without resorting to taunt mechanics. Taunt mechanisms are a ridiculous crutch created by the people who made Everquest so that characters who sucked at doing damage could still keep monsters from running over and flattening the wizard who just blasted them for half their HP.

In a game like a Tales game, you have:

A) Free Run. This takes care of a lot of the issues all by itself. The boss character is going for the squishy caster? They -run- -away-. This couples nicely with...

B) Stagger/stun/knockdown mechanics. This one is already there too. It's not any fun for the wizard to spend ALL their time fleeing, so once the swordsman gets a good combo in, the enemy is stunned/staggered/knocked down and can't chase any more. This gives the wizard a breather.

C) Actual collision detection - also present in Tales games, though difficult to use as a crowd control mechanism because everything moves so fast relative to its size. Giving characters larger collision detection boxes can help with this though, and does a fairly tolerable job of simulating the fact that, in reality, it's pretty hard to run right past a guy with a sword, even if you don't actually physically collide with him (and it's a lot easier to get in someone's way and cause a physical collision in reality than in the game engine.) This allows the 'tough' types to actually stand in the path of the enemies.

D) Runspeed manipulation. Mostly absent from Tales games, though I dimly recall a few effects having it. An attack that briefly slows down an enemy's movement means more time for other mechanisms to work.

All of this should ideally then be combined with a somewhat more lenient spellcasting system - the current ToV (and Abyss) "takes a really long time to cast, you are rooted in place, and you are either virtually immune to being interrupted or interrupted the first time someone pokes you in the arm" system is a bit rigid and inflexible. The ability to move (slowly, probably) while casting would be good, the ability to take a couple of hits while casting, or have hits just increase your casting time slightly would be valuable here - though not so much against "one hit kill" bosses. One Hit Kill bosses should be rare though - it's virtually impossible to make a One Hit Kill boss fight entertaining. Certainly, they're not under any of the systems I've played, because they inevitably turn into either crazy free run fests where you're not really allowed to make even one mistake, or into semi-exploiting whatever gimmick/AI flaw the game has that allows you to avoid the boss entirely.

So yeah. Not a fan of taunt. ;)

[Dihan]

Tales of Graces has magic that slows things down and fast casting speeds. Having said that, fights in Graces are a lot faster than those in the likes of Symphonia and Vesperia.

[Teutonic Knight]

Or you can just roll with it. Stop caring about one mechanic if about everything else works fine.

Also I forgot I made this; thought it was relevant given the thread title. I should redo him. Looking at it again, it looks awkward for some reason. Ideas?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/904/jadea.png

I think it's the hair, or lack thereof.

[Mirrinus]

Also I forgot I made this; thought it was relevant given the thread title. I should redo him. Looking at it again, it looks awkward for some reason. Ideas?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/904/jadea.png

I think it's the hair, or lack thereof.

I love it. Mind if I use it?

[Knaight]

Or you can just roll with it. Stop caring about one mechanic if about everything else works fine.

Also I forgot I made this; thought it was relevant given the thread title. I should redo him. Looking at it again, it looks awkward for some reason. Ideas?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/904/jadea.png

I think it's the hair, or lack thereof.

Its too symmetrical. The way (s)he is standing he looks like (s)he is closer to military salute than a normal way to stand. Move one leg in front of the other, add a bend, put one arm down, twist the torso a little, and you are set. Though this is obviously easier said than done.

[Teutonic Knight]

Its too symmetrical. The way (s)he is standing he looks like (s)he is closer to military salute than a normal way to stand. Move one leg in front of the other, add a bend, put one arm down, twist the torso a little, and you are set. Though this is obviously easier said than done.

It's a he, Jade from Tales of the Abyss. And yes, it is easier said because these are 2D stick figure drawings we are talking about. I'll try to play around with different poses. Usually I'm good at that sort of thing, but I guess that only applies to Bionicle and Gundam model kits.

I'll also try a new style of more hair, cause I think it's about time I come up with my own style for making these.

And for Mirrinus, I would wait until I make a better one. Then you can have it. Unless you want that version, then sure go ahead. Follow standard procedure, rehost on your own site, credit and blah.

[Airk]

Or you can just roll with it. Stop caring about one mechanic if about everything else works fine.

...

So you're just saying that no one should ever think about game design as long as it "works"? I mean, c'mon, I'm not saying I wouldn't buy the game if it was localized (Though I wouldn't, because I don't own a DS.); I'm just saying that "taunt" is a bad game mechanic that needs to go away. I like to talk about this stuff.



Also I forgot I made this; thought it was relevant given the thread title. I should redo him. Looking at it again, it looks awkward for some reason. Ideas?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/904/jadea.png

I think it's the hair, or lack thereof.

Pretty good, but you're right, I think the hair needs a little work. I don't like the thick black band for the eyebrows either. I also think the glasses combined with the close-set eyes make him look crosseyed - maybe just move the eyes further apart so they are centered in the lenses of the glasses? I'm not an artist though, so all this could be completely wrong.

[Bad Situation]

Yeah Jade has longer hair if I remember correctly.

And if you want to get really technical the parting of his jacket should be shifted a little more to the left. Also he should look more smug.

[Airk]

Reference art. (http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/tales-of-the-abyss/jade-curtiss.jpg) 'cause, you know, I'm sure you needed my two-bit Google skills to find this for you.

But I think the jacket is about as close as it's likely to get. The hair -could- be longer, but on a person with no neck, it's going to be a bit challenging. It should cover his collar/lapels a bit though

[Teutonic Knight]

Cause I'm too lazy to quote each point, I'll just sum it all up here.

Yeah I'll do something about the hair. That is how OotS does glasses. Less collar showing, got that. And to Airk and Bad Situation about the eyebrows, that combined with a smile is how OotS does a smug look.

[Oregano]

It looks like a Tales of game may be on the way for the 3DS. The producer of Super Robot Taisen Neo mentioned it in Famitsu.

Source (http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=130218)

[Airk]

It looks like a Tales of game may be on the way for the 3DS. The producer of Super Robot Taisen Neo mentioned it in Famitsu.

Source (http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=130218)

This is the really ultimate definition of "may". As in like "The thought crossed the minds of someone at Bandco". In any event, as usual, they're unlikely to localize.

[Teutonic Knight]

Random question. Are there only two Tales main characters with glasses? I count Jade Curtiss in Abyss and Hubert Ozwell in Graces, which also means in America there is only one.

[Volug]

Random question. Are there only two Tales main characters with glasses? I count Jade Curtiss in Abyss and Hubert Ozwell in Graces, which also means in America there is only one.

Will from legendia.

[Dihan]

New Tales announced for the PS3 and Tales of Graces is being ported to the PS3. Don't expect a Western release for either. :smalltongue:

[Mirrinus]

Random question. Are there only two Tales main characters with glasses? I count Jade Curtiss in Abyss and Hubert Ozwell in Graces, which also means in America there is only one.

Does no one remember Philia Felice? Her game even appeared in America!