Roy's Little Brother

[Captainocaptain]

Real quick, out of curiosity. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html In this comic, we meet Roy's little brother. And Roy talks a bit about what happened to him, but doesn't give us much. So, I'm just wondering, does another comic explain how Eric died? Maybe in the bonus material in one of the books? Or can anyone figure it out based on what we know? Thanks.

[kerberos]

Real quick, out of curiosity. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html In this comic, we meet Roy's little brother. And Roy talks a bit about what happened to him, but doesn't give us much. So, I'm just wondering, does another comic explain how Eric died? Maybe in the bonus material in one of the books? Or can anyone figure it out based on what we know? Thanks.

Based on the dialogue in the strip it seems pretty clear he was accidentally killed by Roy's dad in some magical experiment mishap. I don't think anything more is known, but I haven't read the newest book, so there might be a bonus comic that goes into detail.

[Captainocaptain]

Hmm. Okay thanks. I wonder if Rich will ever tell us?
But thanks for answering my question.

[FeanorFireHeart]

I often thought about his death too. However we all know roys dad is involved and perhaps it was a magical mishap (we dont know for sure) and if it was perhaps that strengthened roy's desire to not go to magic school (though when his sword broke the flashbacks show other reasons too). It may also explain other reasons for loathing his father other than being hard on Roy for going to fighter college and being passed the blood oath.

[iroZn]

I think it's totally clear that Roy dislikes his father so much because of what happened with his brother.

In this comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html Roy makes his dad promise to never go to his mom's house. It's not because he doesn't want his Dad to see his mom, it's cuz he doesn't want his dad to see his brother.

[Ancalagon]

I think it's totally clear that Roy dislikes his father so much because of what happened with his brother.

And because of all the other jerkiness of his father... the soccer game, for example!


In this comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html Roy makes his dad promise to never go to his mom's house. It's not because he doesn't want his Dad to see his mom, it's cuz he doesn't want his dad to see his brother.

I think you overthink it. Roy just does not want his father.

[sol-decentguy]

not to mention dumping a blood oath on him in the middle of college:smallannoyed:

[Jagos]

And doting on his little sister, neglecting his first born.

From all looks, since Roy turned out just like his grandfather, it was really a matter of time before they came to odds.

[Morty]

I have this personal theory that Horace wasn't a much better father than Eugene. The "I'm still surprised that he liked girls" comment is what led me to it.

[TheFallenOne]

I have this personal theory that Horace wasn't a much better father than Eugene. The "I'm still surprised that he liked girls" comment is what led me to it.

Yeah, my thoughts too. Father and son were just completely different in both cases, and Roy ended up like Horace not only because of the families tradition, but because he knew it's what Eugene least wanted. Though if Roy ever has kids and they end up becoming wizards I think he'll break the circle and be a good father no matter what

[EternalMelon]

Though if Roy ever has kids and they end up becoming wizards I think he'll break the circle and be a good father no matter what
They'll probably have lightning from bloodline or something...:smallbiggrin:

[Ancalagon]

I have this personal theory that Horace wasn't a much better father than Eugene. The "I'm still surprised that he liked girls" comment is what led me to it.

Actually... aren't you as well? ;)

But in that regard... Horace was not able to understand his son was simply different than him, that he had other interests (did not want to go fishing). I guess that's the same between Roy and Eugene.
If Roy would have had any real interest in magic, he could have had a lot of nice time with his father - or he would have died in another of those accidents that already killed his brother.

[tassaron]

Actually... aren't you as well? ;)
Are you saying he's a bad father? :smallfrown:

OT: I think the idea that Horace was about as bad as Eugene is a pretty solid one. That was always the impression I got from the Celestia arc.

[TheFallenOne]

Are you saying he's a bad father? :smallfrown:

OT: I think the idea that Horace was about as bad as Eugene is a pretty solid one. That was always the impression I got from the Celestia arc.

While I think Horace was a questionable father(I guess his view of manliness is physical fitness and strength, explaining the comment about Eugene liking girls) I'm pretty sure he was not as bad as Eugene. Remember, it wasn't just that he disliked his sons career choice, he abandoned his whole family, and even if Roy became a wizard I doubt they would have been buddies like Roy and Horace

[kerberos]

Are you saying he's a bad father? :smallfrown:

Unless he knows Morty he has no way of knowing if he's a good father, not a father or even if he's a guy, so I'm pretty sure he's asking if Morty isn't also surprised that Eugene likes girls.

[Ancalagon]

Are you saying he's a bad father? :smallfrown:

No, I ask if you aren't a bit surprised as well that Eugene liked girls... ;)

[Big Hungry Joe]

That's my all time favorite OoTS strip (and I don't even like Roy much).

However, my read of it is not that Roy's father killed his brother, in an accident or otherwise. Rather, I think some unknown/unrevealed adult did something when Roy and his brother were unattended, and that Roy tried to warn his father but Eugene wouldn't listen. In his monologue, Roy refers to "the grown-up" when he could have just as easily referred to "Dad" again, suggesting there was another person involved. The narrative conjures the imagery from that River Phoenix / Indiana Jones Grail movie prologue where young Indy bursts into the house to tell his father about the whole Cross of Coronado adventure, and his father tells him to count to 10 in Greek and then ignores him when he leaves. While it may have been Eugene's job to watch the kids so the ultimate fault may lie with him, I don't think we know that he in fact killed his son. To be honest, if that were the case I think the relationships amongst all family members would be even worse than they already are.

[Maximum Zersk]

That's my all time favorite OoTS strip (and I don't even like Roy much).

However, my read of it is not that Roy's father killed his brother, in an accident or otherwise. Rather, I think some unknown/unrevealed adult did something when Roy and his brother were unattended, and that Roy tried to warn his father but Eugene wouldn't listen. In his monologue, Roy refers to "the grown-up" when he could have just as easily referred to "Dad" again, suggesting there was another person involved. The narrative conjures the imagery from that River Phoenix / Indiana Jones Grail movie prologue where young Indy bursts into the house to tell his father about the whole Cross of Coronado adventure, and his father tells him to count to 10 in Greek and then ignores him when he leaves. While it may have been Eugene's job to watch the kids so the ultimate fault may lie with him, I don't think we know that he in fact killed his son. To be honest, if that were the case I think the relationships amongst all family members would be even worse than they already are.

Actually, I just noticed that now. Interesting.

[AgentofOdd]

Actually... aren't you as well? ;)Not really. I don't see how being brainy translates into not caring about the opposite sex. Not caring as much I could maybe believe however.

[silvadel]

If he ever has a kid it will likely be a bard like elan and drive him banannas.

[FeanorFireHeart]

If he ever has a kid it will likely be a bard like elan and drive him banannas.

probably true, and win! :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Epic]

In this comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html Roy makes his dad promise to never go to his mom's house. It's not because he doesn't want his Dad to see his mom, it's cuz he doesn't want his dad to see his brother.

Jumping to conclusions much?

[MartytheBioGuy]

I would like to throw another thought process into this mess, if I could.

A- there seems to be a tradition of bad feelings father-to-son in the Greenhilt family, and Roy's general attitude toward spellcasters makes me believe that it's not likely to change (sure, he can work with V and Durkon, but he still views casters overall as kinda arrogant and inferior).

B- HOWEVER, I think that his attitude toward Elan (perhaps because he sees so much of his brother Eric in Elan, see the comic that started this thread) is a good sign for the bloodline. Roy is warming up to some casters. He keps a gruff, serious exterior regarding Elan's silliness, but overall he feels brotherly love and responsibility for Elan, like I said, maybe because he thinks of Elan as a surrogate Eric.

Sorry that took so long.

[Luzahn]

But, even early on Roy had good regard for V, showed no anti-caster prejudice.

[Vemynal]

But, even early on Roy had good regard for V, showed no anti-caster prejudice.

hell V was the one who got uppity and then roy laid some mental smack down, then when V apologized it was all 'past is past'

[dps]

I think it was just a matter of a fairly normal childhood accident, and Eugene was supposed to be watching his children but got distracted. Yes, it could have been something more than that, but there's no evidence of it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think it was just a matter of a fairly normal childhood accident, and Eugene was supposed to be watching his children but got distracted.
I Agree, it wasn't what he did. But what he didn't do.

[FeanorFireHeart]

I Agree, it wasn't what he did. But what he didn't do.
That was my original thought when I first read the strip. But then again who knows. Perhaps we will find out in a future story arc.

[Nimrod's Son]

I think it was just a matter of a fairly normal childhood accident, and Eugene was supposed to be watching his children but got distracted. Yes, it could have been something more than that, but there's no evidence of it.
Yeah, I'm not sure why so many people seem to assume that Eric died in some kind of magical-experiment-gone-awry. No reason to think it was anything other than simple negligence.

I always pictured Eric drowning, for some reason. Although I happily admit to having no basis for this whatsoever other than that it just somehow feels right. :smallsmile:

[headmonkeyboy]

Hopefully.....

[sol-decentguy]

I felt the scene where Roy meets his brother was very touching and seemed right. I was kinda shocked that Roy makes his father promise when he finally gets through the gates not to go to his mothers house, I kinda thought that was kinda harsh (then I remember all the BS Eugene put on Roy and I quickly come back to reality)

I think the argument that Roy is biased against casters is a moot point due to his stint on tolerance in his back story with his first meeting with Durkon and the fact that he properly hired Elan and V simply on their qualifications (heck he gave Elan the last spot because he wanted to repay him for the advice on how to recruit his party). I think Roy just simply arbors the irresponsibly of Eugene

[kerberos]

Yeah, I'm not sure why so many people seem to assume that Eric died in some kind of magical-experiment-gone-awry. No reason to think it was anything other than simple negligence.

I always pictured Eric drowning, for some reason. Although I happily admit to having no basis for this whatsoever other than that it just somehow feels right. :smallsmile:
Roy says that "it wasn't my job to watch the grown.up. That phrasing implies that Eugene did something actively dangerous rather than simply not paying attention to Eric going swimming or whatever. If that had been the case the logical thing to say would have been "it wasn't my job to watch the children/you/my siblings". Also Roy could likely have saved his brother from drowning and many other mundane dangers considering he saw the danger beforehand. A magical explosion would be beyond his ability to contain.

My assumption of a magical rather than mundane accident is based solely on Eugene IMO being more likely to meddle in forces mortals aren't not to meddle with than being engaged in some dangerous mundane activity.

I won't claim it's iron clad, but a magical accident fits the (admirably limited) facts we have. A drowning doesn't fit as well, not does most other mundane cases of negligence I can think of.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Yeah, I'm not sure why so many people seem to assume that Eric died in some kind of magical-experiment-gone-awry. No reason to think it was anything other than simple negligence.
It seems to me that when your father is a research wizards “magical experiment gone awry” and “simple negligence” are not mutually exclusive.

That, and what kerberos said.

[Darcy]

That's my all time favorite OoTS strip (and I don't even like Roy much).

However, my read of it is not that Roy's father killed his brother, in an accident or otherwise. Rather, I think some unknown/unrevealed adult did something when Roy and his brother were unattended, and that Roy tried to warn his father but Eugene wouldn't listen.
...
While it may have been Eugene's job to watch the kids so the ultimate fault may lie with him, I don't think we know that he in fact killed his son. To be honest, if that were the case I think the relationships amongst all family members would be even worse than they already are.
This is how I look at it- it sounded like it was Eugene's fault through inaction or absence, rather than something he did, and that rightly or wrongly Eric was in Roy's care at the time.

[derfenrirwolv]

I have this personal theory that Horace wasn't a much better father than Eugene. The "I'm still surprised that he liked girls" comment is what led me to it.

Horace at least tried. Horace's problem is that he didn't, and couldn't, understand Eugene. The concept of not liking fishing, fighting, and other manly activities confused him. To Grandpa, if you're not Manly in those respects, he's going to question your manliness in other respects. He's not being mean, just behind the times and a little dim.

[Jan Mattys]

Horace at least tried. Horace's problem is that he didn't, and couldn't, understand Eugene. The concept of not liking fishing, fighting, and other manly activities confused him. To Grandpa, if you're not Manly in those respects, he's going to question your manliness in other respects. He's not being mean, just behind the times and a little dim.

Eugene, too, tried.
But he doesn't understand how a mentally gifted Roy would ever prefer to run around hurting people with a stick instead of focusing on the power of Magic and Knowledge.

Eugene and Horace are very, very similar. The only difference is that we have a lot of different in-comic examples of Eugene being a jerk, while we don't have the same about Horace. Plus, Roy loves Horace, and Roy is a good guy. Se we are biased when we look at the family tree.

But for all purposes, I always assumed that it was a nice touch by Rich to create the same - difficult - relationship between Horace and Eugene.

There's only two things that make me like Horace more and Eugene less:

1- Eugene is far more intelligent. I know the relevant stat would probably be Wisdom, but anyway: Eugene is smart enough to understad Roy, and still despises him.

2- Eugene had a father who couldn't understand him. One could think he learnt something in his adolescence, something about being a decent father and letting a son develop his talents instead of looking down on him. Seeing how he didn't learn anything from his bad relationship with his father speaks bad of him.

[Coplantor]

2- Eugene had a father who couldn't understand him. One could think he learnt something in his adolescence, something about being a decent father and letting a son develop his talents instead of looking down on him. Seeing how he didn't learn anything from his bad relationship with his father speaks bad of him.

Yeah... I sort of disagree here, having a bad parent more often that not, teaches you how to be a bad parent too.

[FeanorFireHeart]

after reading these post I come to wonder if perhaps it was both magically cause and through mundane means. Now this is just an example but say Roys little brother was swimming but while swimming Eugene was playing with magic that involves water and through negligence or lack of foresight he caused a tidal wave that swept roys brother under the water where he hit his head on a rock and drowned. Roys father could have done something to prevent it, or roy was worried about his brother and tried to warn dad that one of his sons might be affected by the spell but since Eugene is busy trying to conduct a spell he hushes roy quiet. Roy feels somewhat guilty for not speaking up, but it wasnt his job to watch the grown up in the room and make sure Eugene practices safe spells.

on that note what was the age difference between roy and eric was it?

as for the father relationships. I agree with the statement about manliness and Eugene's lack of manly activities from Horace's POV

[Luzahn]

Remember, Roy does state he should have been watching the grownup, implying that it was direct action from some adult which led to his brother's death.

[dps]

I was kinda shocked that Roy makes his father promise when he finally gets through the gates not to go to his mothers house, I kinda thought that was kinda harsh (then I remember all the BS Eugene put on Roy and I quickly come back to reality)


The problem I had with that was that it's not really Roy's call. I figure he's gonna hear about if from his mom when he dies again.

(I'm not implying that I think that he's going to die again in the comic, but he's not an immortal, so eventually, he's going back to the afterlife.

[ThePhantasm]

What I wonder is if we'll ever meet Roy's "Uncle Myrtok".

[Kish]

Yeah... I sort of disagree here, having a bad parent more often that not, teaches you how to be a bad parent too.
Because it's usual doesn't mean it's good or neutral. Eugene could have copied his father's mistakes or he could have resolved to do better. The latter would have reflected better on him than the former does.

[FeanorFireHeart]

Remember, Roy does state he should have been watching the grownup, implying that it was direct action from some adult which led to his brother's death.

I assume it is his father because he doesnt like his father and that was a crack toward eugene (common for Roy's character). but hey we both dont know for sure. its all speculation :smallcool:

[kerberos]

I assume it is his father because he doesnt like his father and that was a crack toward eugene (common for Roy's character). but hey we both dont know for sure. its all speculation :smallcool:

We know for a fact it was his father because Roy goes on to say "Dad just shushed me, he never listened to me at all when mother wasn't around".

[FeanorFireHeart]

We know for a fact it was his father because Roy goes on to say "Dad just shushed me, he never listened to me at all when mother wasn't around".
not necessarily, perhaps Dad could have prevented or saved roys brother. It's an interesting topic none the less.
:smallredface:

[kerberos]

not necessarily, perhaps Dad could have prevented or saved roys brother. It's an interesting topic none the less.
:smallredface:

That doesn't match the "not my job to watch the grown-up" line.

But actually I though you meant we didn't know that the grown-up mentioned was Eugene. we do know that because Roy's later comment about his father not listening when his mother being around, rules out the mother as the culprit. Unless of cause you mean it could have been a third grown-up, which I suppose is technically possible, but a major stretch IMO.

[Bavarian itP]

What I wonder is if we'll ever meet Roy's "Uncle Myrtok".

We see one half of him in the fourth panel of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html . You can learn a little more about him in the prequel books. And, in case it isn't clear, he isn't Roy's real uncle.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

1- Eugene is far more intelligent. I know the relevant stat would probably be Wisdom, but anyway: Eugene is smart enough to understad Roy, and still despises him.
As you said, it’s Wisdom. Where does Eugene display exceptional Wisdom?

Second, even in D&D, high Wisdom doesn’t mean you’re good with people. Especially if you put no actual training into Sense Motive and have a low Charisma and no Diplomacy to help you actually act on your insights.

In real life, you also have the problem of not being able to distance yourself from the problem when it’s a family member. Emotions can cloud better judgment quite easily.

Third, where does the idea that Eugene actually despises Roy come from?


Because it's usual doesn't mean it's good or neutral.
Huh? He never made a value judgment. He just said that’s what happens.


Eugene could have copied his father's mistakes or he could have resolved to do better.
Who says he didn’t resolve to do better and failed? It’s one thing to recognize a mistake from someone else. It’s something completely different to learn what actually works. That’s why children of bad parents tend to become bad parents themselves. They’ve seen all the mistakes but none of the solutions.

[Coplantor]

Because it's usual doesn't mean it's good or neutral. Eugene could have copied his father's mistakes or he could have resolved to do better. The latter would have reflected better on him than the former does.

Of course, with that I agree, I was just saying that having a bad father doesnt mean that you'll learn from the example to be good.

[maxon]

I assume it is his father because he doesnt like his father and that was a crack toward eugene (common for Roy's character). but hey we both dont know for sure. its all speculation :smallcool:

Uh, yes, that's how I read it - it's a crack to Eugene saying saying 'it wasn't up to me, a CHILD, to watch out for Eric by supervising you and your activity but that you, an ADULT, should have taken responsibility for our welfare.' He's being sarcastic. At least, that's how I read it. I'm English and so maybe that's me but although Americans generally don't get sarcasm and irony as clearly as we do, nevertheless they still get it and, in Rich's case, can write it too.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Uh, yes, that's how I read it - it's a crack to Eugene saying saying 'it wasn't up to me, a CHILD, to watch out for Eric by supervising you and your activity but that you, an ADULT, should have taken responsibility for our welfare.' He's being sarcastic.
That comment was made to Eric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html). It wasn’t sarcastic. It was sincere and very truthful. It’s not the responsibility of a little kid to watch an adult.