Power equals Power [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ancalagon

2010-06-21, 06:24 AM

I find it interesting that Roy pretty much understands what Xykon is all about and had to explain to some wizards he met.

In contrast to those wizards we saw (Dorukan, spliced Vaarsuvius) Roy knows what his strength, his power is. "Strength is my Strength", it's pretty much what Xykon wants to express with "power equals power" - and he goes for it.

What's the lesson of this? Big, bald, fighter guy knows more than the soo smart wizards. :)

Kaytara

2010-06-21, 06:46 AM

Hm, I don't agree. I think the opposite, in fact. "Strength is my strength" is analogous to "spells are my strength" - you're still focussing on only one aspect of your abilities and thinking that the's the only aspect that matters, that counts.

Power equals power, though.. the point Xykon was making was that EVERYTHING you can lay on the table, all the cards you can play, are your power, be it good hearing, the ability to disintegrate someone with a thought, or just knowing the right people.

Ancalagon

2010-06-21, 06:54 AM

Souhiro

2010-06-21, 07:18 AM

Hum... I had started some reply but scrapped it again. It's not perfectly clear as Roy is very able to adapt and use other means as well but...

... I fear you are correct... at least too correct to argue against. ;)

Roy is the smartest character. He isn't the most intelligent, but he is smart. Until V's time with O'Chuck and Xykon, Vaarsuvius was more akin to the Dumb I-Blast-Everything-at-Sight Wizard. Sure, jumping to the Zombie-Dragon was stupid, but if it had worked (Roy slays Xykon, then jumps from the Zombie Dragon to the safety of a tower) it would have been totally bad@s$ and climatic.

Short-Haired V' always was at an inch of braggin about the superiority of magic. Roy, instead, knew that Fighter's Strenght + Rager's many attacks + Rogue's furtives + Cleric + Wizard + Elan was stronger than just ten wizards or just ten fighters.

Ancalagon

2010-06-21, 07:26 AM

it would have been totally bad@s$ and climatic.

I don't know. I already found it to be totally badass and climatic...

Optimystik

2010-06-21, 07:38 AM

Kaytara is right; Xykon's whole "Power equals Power" speech was meant to show that you can't really be considered powerful if you only focus on one thing - because once the counter to that one thing is used against you, your power loses meaning and you become effectively powerless. Xykon then demonstrated his point by locating the invisible Vaarsuvius without casting a single spell.

Now, Roy said "Strength is my strength," which indicates the opposite of what Xykon was getting at - i.e. overspecialization. (Hence, despite being at least as experienced as Belkar in a D&D sense, is totally inept at employing Belkar's stealthing strategy.) However, Roy was definitely oversimplifying; Strength is not his strength, or at least not his only one - if that were true, he would be just like other brainless beatsticks. (i.e. Yor, Thog.)

Torick

2010-06-21, 01:23 PM

I've got to agree with Kaytara: while Roy's "strength is my strength" is verbally similar to Xykon's "power equals power," he's essentially communicating exactly the opposite concept.

Roy is basically arguing against the smarter strategy because he isn't optimized for it, whereas in the fight with Vaarsuvius, Xykon is doing exactly the opposite (that is, matching V's "giant pile of spells," and then beating him with random little things like Spot and Listen racial bonuses and a very non-optimized use of brute strength).

In the fight with Dorukan, Xykon's 'power equals power' thing seems to be a generic exposition on the classic wizard vs. sorcerer debate, lecturing Dorukan while he beats him by casting the same spell over and over again.

Darakonis

2010-06-21, 01:43 PM

it would have been totally bad@s$ and climatic.

I don't know. I already found it to be totally badass and climatic...

Meteorologists would find that scene to be climatic. Those not in the weather business may think of it as climactic :smallsmile:

Sorry, I wasn't going to bring it up until I saw it repeated. I made the same mistake countless times in the past.

On-topic: +1 Kaytara.

Peace,
-Darakonis

JonestheSpy

2010-06-21, 03:21 PM

Actually, I have to disagree with the consensus here.

Roy's comment is about knowing his limitations - he's not sneaky- and his area of expertise, and therefore not going with a plan that depends on abilities he doesn't have.

Xykon, despite his open-mindedness about he nature of power, will still use his spells in most situations because that's his greatest strength. Playing to your strengths is not the same as overspecialization, though the former can definitely drift in to the latter. But Roy has demonstrated many times his ability to use strategies that don't depend on muscle.

whereas in the fight with Vaarsuvius, Xykon is doing exactly the opposite (that is, matching V's "giant pile of spells," and then beating him with random little things like Spot and Listen racial bonuses and a very non-optimized use of brute strength).

Well, really Xykon beat Varsuvius with spells - his and others' - and just used his strength and such to finish him off after V was down.

veti

2010-06-21, 05:58 PM

Roy's comment is about knowing his limitations - he's not sneaky- and his area of expertise, and therefore not going with a plan that depends on abilities he doesn't have.

Absolutely. We're comparing Xykon's philosophical musings with Roy's tactical calculation - two very different things. Context matters a lot here. "Strength is my strength" is an explanation for choosing to adopt one particular tactical approach in this situation.

Also, power is not the same as strength. Roy doesn't say "strength is my power", which would make him sound like some cheesy wannabe superhero.

Optimystik

2010-06-21, 06:08 PM

Actually, I have to disagree with the consensus here.

Roy's comment is about knowing his limitations - he's not sneaky- and his area of expertise, and therefore not going with a plan that depends on abilities he doesn't have.

Xykon, despite his open-mindedness about he nature of power, will still use his spells in most situations because that's his greatest strength. Playing to your strengths is not the same as overspecialization, though the former can definitely drift in to the latter. But Roy has demonstrated many times his ability to use strategies that don't depend on muscle.

This is basically what I said in my post - that Roy's statement, taken at face value, would seem to be selling himself short.

In other words, Strength is not his strength; or at the very least it is but one of his strengths, and very likely to be the least of them.

Black

2010-06-21, 06:11 PM

I think you guys are overanalyzing this (who would have thought it?).

I think that Rich intended the parallel to be drawn between Xykon's line and Roy's line. I don't think it has any deep significance. I just think Rich likes to make art, and making parallels between different parts of a piece of literature is just one of many techniques to make a compelling narrative that Rich employs. It draws us back to thinking about Xykon, keeping the ultimate direction of the plot in our minds as we get into a new side plot, and it also gives us a laugh: There is a delicious irony in the coincidence of Xykon and Roy's lines.

There's also the joke it makes on its own. It's a funny play on words.

Maybe there is a deeper significance, but I don't think we can tell right now. We need more of the strip. Ideally we would wait for the entire strip to be released in complete form before we plumb its depths for hidden gold.

FeanorFireHeart

2010-06-22, 01:29 AM

I think roy simply meant his stats, that because he is a fighter he is not very good at stealth and is better suited for a fight.

factotum

2010-06-22, 01:30 AM

I think you guys are overanalyzing this (who would have thought it?).

I think that Rich intended the parallel to be drawn between Xykon's line and Roy's line.

I don't think that at all. Just because something is worded the same doesn't mean the author intended a deliberate parallel--it might just be worded the same because it's the same author and therefore he'll tend to word things in a similar way!

Black

2010-06-22, 02:37 AM

I don't think that at all. Just because something is worded the same doesn't mean the author intended a deliberate parallel--it might just be worded the same because it's the same author and therefore he'll tend to word things in a similar way!

Maybe I am assuming Rich works on oots much more seriously than he actually does, but I want to give him credit. Even though oots is a webcomic with a cutesy stick figure art style, it is very well crafted. The greatest artists intend every word, every stroke, and every note. I only assume that Rich pays as much detail to his craft because of how high quality oots is . I am not talking about the story, or the plot, or the world, which are as compelling as you would expect from a skilled storyteller like Rich. I am talking about the quality of the comic from a technical perspective, and I think there is a convincing argument for a very careful hand crafting every panel and speech bubble we see on our end.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-06-22, 05:47 AM

I think you guys are overanalyzing this (who would have thought it?).

I think that Rich intended the parallel to be drawn between Xykon's line and Roy's line.
Wait, so you think Rich intended the parallel, but us noticing it and deigning to comment on it is overanalysis? :smallconfused:

Kranden

2010-06-22, 06:14 AM

Vaarsuvius was more akin to the Dumb I-Blast-Everything-at-Sight Wizard.

V is very intelligent however he has a natural 1 charisma.

Ancalagon

2010-06-22, 06:57 AM

V is very intelligent however he has a natural 1 charisma.

Seems more like 1 Wisdom (as well?) to me...

Kaytara

2010-06-22, 07:03 AM

Well, personally, it was just the parallel between "power equals power" and "strength is my strength" that I was disputing. I wasn't really talking about Roy's actual tactics.

Personally I don't think there is any parallel, let alone a deliberate one. It's more a play of words on the expression of "x is my strength" combined with actual strength. That same thing always cracked me up when I watched Star Wars in Russian as a kid - there are no different translations for "strength" and "force" in Russian, so you'd get "The Force is forceful with him" or "The Strength is strong with him". :smallbiggrin:

Procyonpi

2010-06-22, 07:03 AM

Seems more like 1 Wisdom (as well?) to me...

Well, at some point, rich explained the whole Mindflayer thing by explicitly stating that Roy's Int+Wis+Cha was higher than Vs, so that's quite imaginable.

Big Hungry Joe

2010-06-22, 07:59 AM

I wonder if Roy would still be of that opinion if he didn't have that strength belt on. He doesn't seem to have learned much from getting killed by Xykon.

The Succubus

2010-06-22, 11:45 AM

I think you guys are overanalyzing this (who would have thought it?).

Next we'll be asking if Roy's statement was morally jus- ok, I'll be good, just put down the banhammer. :smallfrown:

sihnfahl

2010-06-22, 11:59 AM

Seems more like 1 Wisdom (as well?) to me...
I believe there has been a Word Of God statement that V has a moderate wis score (10-14?), but abysmal charisma (< 9).

And, yes, Roy was selling himself short. His Str is just one of his strengths; his decent int and wis scores, the other. He didn't opt to use the second.

Ancalagon

2010-06-22, 01:34 PM

I believe there has been a Word Of God statement that V has a moderate wis score (10-14?), but abysmal charisma (< 9).

imo 14 isn't "morderate" but "high". 14 would already be a lot above "average". Vaarsuvius does not make the impression he was gifted with an "above average" wis.

HandofShadows

2010-06-22, 01:48 PM

And, yes, Roy was selling himself short. His Str is just one of his strengths; his decent int and wis scores, the other. He didn't opt to use the second.

Are you sure he didn't? One reason that Roy didn't go wiht the stealth option is that the bounty hunters might have left before their last party member came down. So either they would try to follow them if they (and probably fail at it) and take a chance as splitting the party (A BAD idea) or going to talk to them before anything could happen. Of course there is the little fact that following those two would not have gotten Roy and company a darn thing and would likely have lead them AWAY from their goal.

sihnfahl

2010-06-22, 02:00 PM

One reason that Roy didn't go wiht the stealth option is that the bounty hunters might have left before their last party member came down.
Third option: subterfuge.

The notice was for a bounty. One smells like the moisterizer, and both match the species Belkar tracked. A few questions that make them sound like they're bounty hunters as well ... and whether dealing with the Empire was good business.

casper

2010-06-22, 02:49 PM

I'm almost sure that "Power equal Power" was actually more of a joke about 4th edition D&D than of an actual philosophy. "Strength is my strength" is a D&D joke too, of course, but less so. And I think, that by saying so Roy mostly just wanted to find explanation, why they wouldn't use Belkar's plan. After all, he still used Charisma rather then Strength just after saying so.

Jokasti

2010-06-22, 03:34 PM

Are you suggesting that Xykon is really Roy's father?

Luzahn

2010-06-22, 03:36 PM

Third option: subterfuge.

The notice was for a bounty. One smells like the moisterizer, and both match the species Belkar tracked. A few questions that make them sound like they're bounty hunters as well ... and whether dealing with the Empire was good business.

You miss the concept of Bounty hunter competition. Often leaves you dead.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-22, 05:45 PM

Seems more like 1 Wisdom (as well?) to me...

Well, stay awake for 4 months strait and then try to deal with the possibility of having your family brutally killed and murdered while they're 4,000 miles away from you in a sane and rational manner. Its NOT going to happen.

V was the first to start the budding romance between haley and elan, waaay back in the bandit camp. He knows a lot about love, managed to advise a succubus on affairs of the heart, and made the hard but correct choice in admitting that his husband significant other has the right to full custody of the children and the right to a life without him in it at the moment. These are not traits associated with someone with a low wisdom. I don't think its fair to judge V solely based on what he was doing post azure city, where he clearly had PTSD and a crisis of faith.

Ancalagon

2010-06-23, 01:32 AM

Well [...]

And you need a HIGH wis for all those things? I think that's perfectly within the reach of a normal person with Wis 10 (average) - especially when dice are involved to deterine things.

Apart from that: Vaarsuvius neglected his mate for years and proceeded the quest for power for years, never realising he only did it for himself and power. Not because he wanted or needed it for anything. Just for the sake of the power.
And that non-knowledge cumulated in "I... I must proceed". But let's take that out of the equitation... Vaarsuvius still does not strike me as "srongly above average wise" (which would be Wis 13 or 14, 12ish would already be "above average).

Beorn080

2010-06-27, 11:16 PM

I wonder if Roy would still be of that opinion if he didn't have that strength belt on. He doesn't seem to have learned much from getting killed by Xykon.

He learned to jump on monsters where the ground is softer. That's a good lesson right there.