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The J Pizzel
2010-06-21, 08:58 AM
One of our players DMed a one-shot the other night and did a agreat job, so he's going to be running a campaign for the next several months. I've no idea what to play.

Here's the problem. I hate one-trick ponies. My favorite class is one where every round has me thinking about what's most important. I love Clerics. I love contemplating who needs the buff, who needs the debuff, who needs the free saving throw, who needs healing, should I use Command, or just smoke with Lance of Faith. To this end, it's obvious I like the roles of Leaders (Cleric and Bard) and Controllers (Wizzie and Invoker). Like I said, here's the problem....they're both taken.

Level 11 anything is allowed. Already have an uber buffing Bard who can mark baddies for us. And a uber controller Wizzie.

The third player loves playing Strikers, namely Rogues. But he offered to play a Defender if I wanted to play a Striker.

So. Based on the criteria above, what the heck do I play. I played a knockdown assualt fighter in the one-shot and it was very effective, but very boring. I'm not a damage junkie, I like being effective without having to roll a bunch of dice.

What I've made so far:
Defenders:
Extremely high AC Runepriest (I know it's a Leader). Crappy HP but lots of AC and buffs. With two healers I figured this build could maybe pull off being a tank and the other guy can go striker. The bard can mark stuff for me.
Sheilding Swordmage. Looks like fun. Doesn't have to sit still and take a beating. Looks like he defends his friends while moving around and doing stuff.
Paladin. Looks boring but effective.

Striker:
Storm or Dagron Sorcerer. Looks fun but kinda one trick. What do I blast them with this round?
I fiddled with Barbarian. That could be fun, but I'd need more help on the build. No one's played one yet.



So, any advice you can give on what build you'd go with in this group I'd appreciate.

Advice restraints: no Psionics, level 11 anything goes, must not be a "one-trick pony",

Erom
2010-06-21, 09:12 AM
4e assassin is a thing of beauty. It's not particularly one-trick unless you build it to be - it has a lot of stab-stab-stabbity powers, but it also has a fair bit of controller-like abilities to move yourself and enemies.

Warden is my favorite defender, very sticky, not much AC but tons of healing. Goes very well with the marshal multiclass feat to give you better access to the giant stack of healing surges you have. Stick a pinning weapon on there and you can immobilize anything indefinitely as long as it doesn't have a push power. Personally I find the explosions of 200 different "nature guy" classes in 4e kind of meh from a fluff perspective, but Warden is great fun to play, and can sort of be a pocket-healer with the right feats, so it might get you some leaderish playstyle which you said you liked?

valadil
2010-06-21, 10:01 AM
I have that problem too. I've played 3 characters in 4e. Two of them can be played off a script. I sort my powers accordingly and play through them in that order 90% of the time. Sometimes I throw in a daily. Sometimes I can't hit a power. It's really boring.

Those two characters are paladin and invoker. I thought the invoker would be a little more interested (and you did too, as you mentioned it as something you might find interesting), but it really just runs off a script. The thing is, it has a few powers that are clearly better than the others. Most of its powers are ranged. Most of them hit several people. There isn't that much variety in the effects. Maybe I should have picked more effects? I dunno. The end result is that I find the character boring.

The one character that doesn't bore me is my rogue. He's a half orc brutal scoundrel. The build is dead simple. What's interesting about the character is trying to get CA every round. But it's not always worthwhile. There's little benefit in flanking a minion - who cares if I do extra damage? Most of the time I can do as much damage with an at-will as an encounter power, so the encounter powers end up being more situational, which means there's more thought going in to when I use them.

I haven't tried a leader yet. They seem like they have potential.

Delta
2010-06-21, 10:14 AM
I've played a Deva Avenger in a 4e game recently, and I gotta say, depending on how "gamey" your GM plays the opposition, it can make for a truly kick-ass Striker and a very unique gaming experience.

"You know that when you move there, these whole bunch of minions gonna AoO your ass?"

"Sure, I'm counting on it" :smallbiggrin:

Thajocoth
2010-06-21, 10:19 AM
Strikers tend to be very "one-trick" as you put it. Defenders almost as much so. You'll likely have more fun with a Controller or Leader.

Grogmir
2010-06-21, 10:46 AM
Well - Both Leader and Controller are taken - but thats not to stop you ALSO playing a leader (less need for another controller)

Go Cleric and you can stand in front line any day of week as long as you can 'roleplay' your actions you'll feel different from another cleric.

Warlord is a more Melee based Leader with slightly less options. more Tactical on the battlemap.

However if you set on another type - then Paladin Defender gives a lot of options. Warden is also a lot of fun - Defender / Controller.

Striker wise - try and choose something you can go both melee and ranged on. Ranger / Druid comes to mind - Druid might also give a lot of options Outside of combat too.

Most importantly work out what you want to play - and then play that.

Happy Rollin'

DiscipleofBob
2010-06-21, 10:58 AM
Warden is my favorite defender, very sticky, not much AC but tons of healing. Goes very well with the marshal multiclass feat to give you better access to the giant stack of healing surges you have. Stick a pinning weapon on there and you can immobilize anything indefinitely as long as it doesn't have a push power. Personally I find the explosions of 200 different "nature guy" classes in 4e kind of meh from a fluff perspective, but Warden is great fun to play, and can sort of be a pocket-healer with the right feats, so it might get you some leaderish playstyle which you said you liked?

Sorry, got to interject something here.

Depending on your stats, the Warden actually has the HIGHEST AC.

Right now, I'm playing a Warforged Warden with a CON of 18. Sure it means that my STR starts outs at 16, but the difference is hardly noticeable, especially since from my experience higher defenses and marking enemies takes priority to hitting them. But since I can add my CON to AC while in hide armor, it means at level 8 my AC already equivalent to Plate Mail before buffs and powers, and it only goes up from there.

Now, admittedly, if your build ignores CON and focuses on STR and WIS, then your AC will suffer, but I really don't see a reason to do so.

ShaggyMarco
2010-06-21, 11:03 AM
Play a human hybrid Swordmage/Warlock focusing on Intelligence and Constitution.

Even though you are a Con-build, take Assault Swordmage. Also, be sure to pick up Eldritch Strike as one of your At-wills. That way, when a marked opponent attacks your allies, you can teleport next to the enemy and hit them with Eldritch Strike.

Hybrid Talent for Infernal Pact. This plays as a pretty entertaining Defender/Striker that can attack from range or up close.

The J Pizzel
2010-06-21, 11:10 AM
I've made an extremely high AC runepriest just to see him on paper. He seems like he could stant on the front line and survive. The problem is marking enemies and HP.

Other than that, I've made a Sheilding Swordmage. I've narroed it down to thsoe two. I'll need to be in melee since our striker is a rogue.

Any thoughts?

Hzurr
2010-06-21, 11:30 AM
Hmm... I'd suggest either Swordmage, or assassin.

Swordmage is interesting, because your goal is to mark people, and get as far away from them as you can. A well built swordmage is all over the battlefield, teleporting, marking, smacking, whatever. You'll rarely be locked down with one enemy (as so often happens with defenders), and your mobility around the battlefield is ridiculous. Add in a nice smattering of controller powers, and you'll have a blast

Assassin is interesting, because rather than focus on getting OMG SO MUCH DAMAGE!!111!!! every round, your assassin's shrouds build up over time. So you can be moving around the battlefield doing whatever you please, all the time laying down shrouds on the big baddie on the other side of the map. Then, suddenly *BAM* you beat the snot out of him when he (or she) least expects it. Lots of teleporting powers (including an at-will move ability), lots of controllery powers, and some really neat fluff make for an exceptionally interesting class. Making a noose out of shadows to grab a guy, pull him to you, and keep him from getting away? Awesome. Attacking someone 3 squares away with a shortsword, and watching as the shadow of your sword reaches out and smacks him? Also awesome. Since the class uses a Ki focus instead of weapons/implements, you're able to do a lot of swapping of weapons and implements on the fly, which gives you a lot of cool options.


---Edit---
One warning about swordmage, especially since that's where you're leaning. Swordmages really aren't front line tanks. They work best if there's another frontline cleric/ruinpriest/defender/whatever.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-21, 11:50 AM
I'll second rogue as being one of the more interesting strikers. The hunt for Combat Advantage means you always have to be paying attention to the battle and working with your allies. Often times their at-will powers do as much damage as their encounter powers (at least at lower levels), so you can save your encounters for when you really need them. Also, they get a lot of skill training, so you can mix things up in and out of combat with unusual mobility options, bluffing, etc.

Meta
2010-06-21, 11:53 AM
Play a human hybrid Swordmage/Warlock focusing on Intelligence and Constitution.

Even though you are a Con-build, take Assault Swordmage. Also, be sure to pick up Eldritch Strike as one of your At-wills. That way, when a marked opponent attacks your allies, you can teleport next to the enemy and hit them with Eldritch Strike.

Hybrid Talent for Infernal Pact. This plays as a pretty entertaining Defender/Striker that can attack from range or up close.

Warlock|Paladin is another great combo.

Take student of caiphon as your PP and use a radiant weapon. Lots of Con and Cha and as your hybrid talent take paladin armor proficiency. You don't lose a whole lot on either side of the hybrid and you can have the fun of eyebite/divine challenge and the tactical decisions that go with be being almost a full striker and defender.

Also @ above poster Swordmage/Warlock generally means SM multiclassed Warlock and Swordmage|Warlock means hybrid.

The J Pizzel
2010-06-21, 01:34 PM
Out of curiousity, do you think a high AC Runepriest would survive as the main tank?

Thajocoth
2010-06-21, 01:47 PM
Out of curiousity, do you think a high AC Runepriest would survive as the main tank?

No, as they're not actually a Defender. Being a little Defendery is useful, but if enemies can simply ignore you and walk right passed you, you're not going to do a great job of keeping between your enemies & allies.

The J Pizzel
2010-06-21, 01:59 PM
No, as they're not actually a Defender. Being a little Defendery is useful, but if enemies can simply ignore you and walk right passed you, you're not going to do a great job of keeping between your enemies & allies.

That, regretably, is a damn fine point. Crap.

Kylarra
2010-06-21, 02:17 PM
Maybe a swarm druid of some flavor? I'm at work right now so I can't build one up for you, but that would give you a fair number of options between beast and normal forms, not to mention being able to refluff your wildshape each time you do it for your own amusement.

Meta
2010-06-21, 02:25 PM
Maybe a swarm druid of some flavor? I'm at work right now so I can't build one up for you, but that would give you a fair number of options between beast and normal forms, not to mention being able to refluff your wildshape each time you do it for your own amusement.

The OP seems to like high AC however and swarm druids lack that with the Hide Armor Expertise nerf

The J Pizzel
2010-06-21, 02:59 PM
The OP seems to like high AC however and swarm druids lack that with the Hide Armor Expertise nerf

You are correct, if I end up playing a Defender (or a Defender wannabe, like the aforementioned Runepriest).

I'm building up a charging Barbarian right now. It looks like if I go Striker it'll be a Rageblood Barbarian, if I go Defender it'll be Sheilding Swordmage.

Any common advice on these two builds?

Meta
2010-06-21, 03:24 PM
You are correct, if I end up playing a Defender (or a Defender wannabe, like the aforementioned Runepriest).

I'm building up a charging Barbarian right now. It looks like if I go Striker it'll be a Rageblood Barbarian, if I go Defender it'll be Sheilding Swordmage.

Any common advice on these two builds?

I have swordmage expertise having played one myself. Have you looked at Paragon Paths yet?

SMs have a many choices in this regard and from more than one source book. If you happen to have manual of the planes, I heartily recommend taking a look at malec-keth janissary. Coronal Guard is another solid one. Academy Master is a third and all three of those are pretty different and my favorites roll/roleplay wise. If you like one of those I can help flesh out a build for them :smallsmile:

Dust
2010-06-21, 05:48 PM
I would recommend choosing a character that 'lives on the edge!' as it were. Barbarians (and to a lesser extent, Avengers) accomplish this quite well - spending the entire battle barely hanging on to those last few hp while destroying your enemies is fun, and you'll FEEL like a Defender as your GM throws enemies at you in order to finish you off...ineffectually, of course. It's a great deal of fun and sort of suits your playstle, imho.

Edit: Bah, didn't see you had already narrowed it down. I do recommend a charging barbarian then, and especially glancing at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648686/Destruction_Manifest:_The_Barbarians_Handbook?pg=1 ) guide.

mobdrazhar
2010-06-21, 06:11 PM
what race were you looking at for swordmage? i would recommend Genasi as that is the class they are built for and going Elemental Tempest (i think that's the name of the Paragon Path... dual maifestation one) as having multiple resistances on a defender is always useful.

Swordgleam
2010-06-21, 08:23 PM
I'll third rogue. I built an artful dodger with most of the forced movement powers and had a lot of fun coordinating with our wizard and warlord to get the entire battlemap exactly how we wanted it.

Thajocoth
2010-06-21, 09:31 PM
You are correct, if I end up playing a Defender (or a Defender wannabe, like the aforementioned Runepriest).

I'm building up a charging Barbarian right now. It looks like if I go Striker it'll be a Rageblood Barbarian, if I go Defender it'll be Sheilding Swordmage.

Any common advice on these two builds?

A Rageblood Barb is as one-trick as you can get (part of why I want to play one). For maximum effectiveness, you simply pump everything into your charge attacks. Eventually, almost every one of your powers will be usable as a charge too...Not a good choice if you want versatility. But that goes for almost all strikers, really.

Swordmage is fairly versatile for a Defender... But you won't be between your marked target and your allies. The best tactic for a Swordmage is generally to mark and run. Then they attack your allies, sure, but you greatly reduce the effectiveness of that attack or retaliate with an attack of your own. Then with all the control added into their powers... Very versatile.

Mando Knight
2010-06-21, 11:27 PM
what race were you looking at for swordmage? i would recommend Genasi as that is the class they are built for and going Elemental Tempest (i think that's the name of the Paragon Path... dual maifestation one) as having multiple resistances on a defender is always useful.

The other race for Assault Swordmages is the Eladrin. Arcane Power gives them Eladrin Swordmage Advance, which adds a free MBA to their Fey Step. Since Assault Swordmages are already looking to boost their MBAs to increase the threat of their mark, it's perfect. The +1 Will doesn't hurt, either, since it's the defense that's not protected by the Swordmage's preferred stats. The only real drawback is that Eladrin are Dex/Int, which weakens their Fort and secondary effects a bit.

Stat-wise, I recommend a pre-racial 16/14/14/12/11/8, with the 8 in either Wis or Cha, and the pair of 14s in both Str and Con. A Shielding Swordmage can get away with dropping Str a bit more (especially if they remember to get Melee Training/Intelligent Blademaster for fixing their OAs), but altogether too many Assault Swordmages overlook the usefulness of that extra Con.