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twrch2000
2010-06-21, 01:41 PM
In a recent break from our traditional adventuring in DnD, our group began playing a Shadow Run adventure. The group was pretty well rounded, from our brawling troll tank, Surgeon/Weapons Master, Cookie Cutter Gunslinger Adept, to the rather odd Street Shaman. Despite not having a Face in the group, we have been able to avoid any serious engagements until thrown some Lesser She'dime. Though we were able to survive, barely, some questions have begun to come up about how Magic is supposed to work. For instance, how is a well geared Street Shaman rolling 8-9 dice for Fireball or Heals, and scoring 7-8 damage / boxes healed, while the Brawler / WM / Adept are rolling 20+ dice with equally twinked gear, and hitting for 19-28 damage.

Is the game really this skewed against Magic? or are we missing something in rules? For the record, I'm the Adept, not the Shaman, just worries about losing a player over the seeming imbalance of the system.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-21, 02:24 PM
Wizards build slowly, and blowing people up isn't often their best option.

One thing to keep an eye on is armor modifications. If he's throwing a Fire spell, then they're looking at only half their Impact armor to resist, meaning they have less dice to resist (effectively raising the damage). There's also special effects associated with elemental attacks, making some of them horribly effective if they do even a little damage (take a look at electricity spells... there's a reason my troll has invested in insulation).

And, of course, there are folks like spirits and such, where gun-fighters have a distinct disadvantage.

GreyMantle
2010-06-21, 02:58 PM
Mark Hall is correct.

The key to surviving and succeeding as a Shadowrun magician is to specialize in things that are not easily done by mundane things. That means invisibility, mind control, etc. A fireball is simply not that impressive in a world where grenade launchers can be purchased at the local walmart.

But spirit summoning at higher force levels is ridiculously powerful. If you haven't, make sure you read the Immunity to Normal Weapons quality that all spirits possess. That will be sure to make your Shaman smile.

Hendel
2010-06-21, 03:01 PM
I would, however, agree that adepts are really, really good at dishing out the damage if they are made right.

twrch2000
2010-06-21, 03:09 PM
Okay, so with the offensive spells, I can see where thinking outside the box is more important than the direct casting (DnD mentality towards casting may have blinded us to the importance of that), but regarding healing, it seems that this spell is massivly underpowered, compared to other systems where a healer can anything, up to reattaching a severed head, given the right amount of supplies. We had a situation where the adept (me) ate an 11p shot, and, if we're reading it right, the healer was only able to heal for a maximum of the force he placed on the cast, which was 4, in this specific case. Was this a misunderstanding of the rules? or is healing just that underpowered?

TheOOB
2010-06-21, 04:14 PM
Combat is very very deadly in shadowrun, and healing only goes so far.

As far as combat in concerned, it is true that the fastest and most efficient way to kill someone is a bullet(or several bullets), to the head. A good combat mage will use their spells sometimes more for the secondary effects than the damage.

However, the combat mage has some definate tricks. First is overcasting, throwing a force 12 stunbolt will take out most opponents(who only get a single willpower roll to resist, and you'll only have to resist 5P drain, not something you can do all day, but a powerful tool, especially agienst that troll who is rolling 30-40 dice of damage resistance against firearms. The combat mage could also cast a modified toxic wave that effects guns, destroying his opponents weapons even at a low force. They can create illusions, concealing his teams positions from the enemy, and they can have their spirit of earth possess their on body, giving them tremendous physical power.

a_humble_lich
2010-06-21, 04:23 PM
First I disagree that offensive spells are less good. I see several problems you may have had.

1st. I really don't like fireball and other elemental combat spells. If you want to beat people up manabolt is the way to go. Most combat spells completely ignore armour, which is big. The secondary effects can be nice, but you're paying more drain for the privilege of having to go through armour.

2nd. Your shaman seems less optimized for beating things up than your adept/samurai. A magician who specializes in blowing things up can easily be rolling 14 dice. This is still smaller than the 20+ your were talking about before, but remember most combat spell ignore armour.

3rd. On a related point, I think the game encourages magicians who are less specialized. Your average shaman can heal, throw fireballs, turn invisible, summon spirits, etc. Which means they are going to be less effective in combat compared to a character who has specialized in killing people as well as possible.

4th. Combat spells can be nasty because the target only gets to resist once. That is, when being shot you get a reaction roll to dodge, then body+armour to soak; against a mana bolt you only get will+counterspelling.

5th. You say similarly tweaked gear, but that isn't really fair. Money and gear help a Weapon master or street Sam much more than they help magicians. Magicians are much more reliant on karma to advance. So if the PCs have been getting lots of money, but not so much karma, the other characters can outpace the magicians.

6th. As someone else mentioned high force spirits are very powerful. (personally I feel they are unbalancingly powerful).

And to answer your other question, yes healing is weak. Shadowrun combat is supposed to hurt. But if you combine heal magic with first aid you can do OK.

twrch2000
2010-06-21, 04:50 PM
Awesome, thank you for the info, this should help.