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Raendyn
2010-06-21, 02:33 PM
Hey playgrounders,

I just got a lvl 10 song dragon in my hands as a PC.

& i am thinking..

Since dragon lvl's stack with sorcerer lvl's... i am in a dilemma.

I use flat 10 lvl song dragon? d12 full bab good saves:all + spellcasting ability as sorc lvl 10 but w/o familiar?

Or i could use a sorc build,(which i would be glad if you could link me one,or post one,or one that stick with dragon flavor,I am not yet sure whether i prefer a spontaneus caster or a fighter....:smallconfused: ... You see, all dragon prestige's in Draconomicon are for dragons with HD 2X & player prestige'sfrom dragon book generally are for non dragons...)

I also need to ask.. can a dragon's aligment change? i mean can i take Ur-Priest with song dragon always being CG,CN ?

Also,can a prestige class be applyed directly to dragon?I mean can the "adds to the existing spellcasting class" match with a lvl of dragon,or i have to take a lvl of a spellcasting class(probably sorc in my case)?

If not, can the dragon be there with fewer dragon HD than that of the wyrmling?only one, or none at all?
I mean when we take a human we don't have to carry a lvl of humanoid,even though you can take one whether if not that is profitable..

Thank's in advance for your help!

Keld Denar
2010-06-21, 02:53 PM
Um, I'll try to answer most of it.

Dragons are wierd. They normally advance by age catagory, and gain HD thusly. They typically don't take class levels.

That said, there is nothing that would prevent a dragon PC from taking class levels. Dragons have an Int score, and thus can take levels.

A dragon that meets all of the prereqs (skills, feats, abilities) can take levels of a PrC without taking any levels in a base class. Your Racial Hit Dice (RHD) are effectively that base class.

Alignment is never absolute. Always, as defined by the MM, is listed as 99% of the time, monster is alignment X. If there are 100 song dragons in the world, statistically speaking, one of them should be something other than X. That is USUALLY only one step away, but can be more drastic (see Drizzt Do'Urden (Drow = Always CE) for more details).

Dragon HD are VERY good. As you stated, d12 HD, all good saves, good skills, and 1/1 sorcerer spellcasting levels. Thats certainly better than d4 HD, 1 good save, 2 skills, and a crappy familiar. Unless you are PrCing into something significantly better (like Initiate of the 7fold Veils), best stick with moar RHD.

Generally, to get the most power for your level, you want to be the youngest age catagory you can. These have the lowest Level Adjustment (LA). Then you tack on more HD or class levels to advance in power. That means that Wyrmling is the most optimium path, unless you are doing something that you need size for (and then there is always Polymorph!).

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-21, 03:01 PM
Question...

Where does it say that Dragon RHD count/stack with Sorcerer levels? Or is that a Song Dragon thing?

Also, by RAW, you can't take more Dragon RHD than your Age would allow for.

hamishspence
2010-06-21, 03:01 PM
Drow are actually Usually NE in 3.0/3.5- and in older editions I'm not sure if there was an Always/Usually/Often system of alignment.

MM doesn't give a precise figure for the number of exceptions to "Always" though 1% might be a reasonable ballpark figure.

As to Dragon casting- I think it states somewhere in MM that any creature which "casts spells as an Xth level sorcerer" automatically has sorcerer levels stack on top of that.

So it isn't just dragons.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-21, 03:13 PM
Drow are actually Usually NE in 3.0/3.5- and in older editions I'm not sure if there was an Always/Usually/Often system of alignment.

MM doesn't give a precise figure for the number of exceptions to "Always" though 1% might be a reasonable ballpark figure.

As to Dragon casting- I think it states somewhere in MM that any creature which "casts spells as an Xth level sorcerer" automatically has sorcerer levels stack on top of that.

So it isn't just dragons.

Yes, but no Dragon casts as a Sorcerer equal to its hit dice. A Dragon's caster level is determined by its age catagory.

hamishspence
2010-06-21, 03:44 PM
And not every creature with spellcasting has the same CL as Hit Dice- they don't have to be connected.

Racial spellcasting stacks with sorcerer levels (if the creature casts spells as a sorcerer)

But if you've picked a dragon with a low CL relative to its Hit Dice, it will tend to be behind.

I'm not sure where the idea that RHD equals caster level comes from though- a Song dragon doesn't gain a sorcerer caster level at all until fairly late (a great wyrm song dragon is only CL 17).

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 04:21 PM
Good to see i can have a non CG,CN dragon & i have a + here since i am taking it as an egg for the time being so i could hypothetically adjust his alignment since it will be raised with my teachings:smallwink:

Anyone knows if when it pops out of the egg i can have it with lower HD than that of the wyrmling?I need some lvls so i can go for the sorc+unseen seer combo, & if i can have an evil version adragon(sorc)10-Ur-Priest 10




Question...

Where does it say that Dragon RHD count/stack with Sorcerer levels? Or is that a Song Dragon thing?

Also, by RAW, you can't take more Dragon RHD than your Age would allow for.

I think your logic i flawed here,you can take RHD you just dont get the stats improvments fly speed adjustments & oher special abilities of the next category.

Half dragons can take dragon lvls,humanoids can take a humanoid lvl.can't see why a dragoc can't take dragon lvls!

Also draconomicon, at the chapter where it says about dragons as characters it states that you can take the RHD & advance to the next category just by crossing the next age threashold... no years needed no nothing..
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Thanks for your answers!:smallsmile:

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-21, 04:45 PM
Good to see i can have a non CG,CN dragon & i have a + here since i am taking it as an egg for the time being so i could hypothetically adjust his alignment since it will be raised with my teachings:smallwink:

Anyone knows if when it pops out of the egg i can have it with lower HD than that of the wyrmling?I need some lvls so i can go for the sorc+unseen seer combo, & if i can have an evil version adragon(sorc)10-Ur-Priest 10

I think your logic i flawed here,you can take RHD you just dont get the stats improvments fly speed adjustments & oher special abilities of the next category.

Half dragons can take dragon lvls,humanoids can take a humanoid lvl.can't see why a dragoc can't take dragon lvls!

Also draconomicon, at the chapter where it says about dragons as characters it states that you can take the RHD & advance to the next category just by crossing the next age threashold... no years needed no nothing..
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Thanks for your answers!:smallsmile:

Once again...

1) Where does it say a Half-Dragon Player Character can take RHD in Dragon?
2) Where does it say a Humanoid Player Character can choose to take RHD in Humanoid? (I know where it says they have to take levels if their base race has them... I want to know where it says a Player Character can take them.)

3) You are correct about the Draconomicon stating that you can take RHD and advance to the next age threshold without actually aging those years... but it also says that whenever you pass an age threshold that has a size increase or a LA increase that you have to take those as well. In other words, you can't be a (Silver) Wyrmling with 15 RHD... but you can be a (Silver) Wyrmling with 5 RHD and 10 class levels.

4) I still haven't heard what would give a 10 Hit Die Dragon the same casting as a level 10 Sorcerer... or what would give a Level 5 Sorcerer with 5 Hit Dice of Dragon the same casting as a level 10 Sorcerer.

5) As for having lower hit-dice than the minimum Wyrmling... See all my arguments against removing Racial Hit Dice. Racial Hit Dice help balance monsters-as-PCs just as much as Level Adjusts do.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 04:56 PM
What the Cat Goddess said. Also, you can have a look at dragon type here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType). It doesn't say you'd gain sorcerer levels.

If you take a look at the true dragons in MMI, you'll notice they mostly have ten or more HD before gaining a level of sorcerer casting.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 06:05 PM
Once again...

1) Where does it say a Half-Dragon Player Character can take RHD in Dragon?
2) Where does it say a Humanoid Player Character can choose to take RHD in Humanoid? (I know where it says they have to take levels if their base race has them... I want to know where it says a Player Character can take them.)

3) You are correct about the Draconomicon stating that you can take RHD and advance to the next age threshold without actually aging those years... but it also says that whenever you pass an age threshold that has a size increase or a LA increase that you have to take those as well. In other words, you can't be a (Silver) Wyrmling with 15 RHD... but you can be a (Silver) Wyrmling with 5 RHD and 10 class levels.

4) I still haven't heard what would give a 10 Hit Die Dragon the same casting as a level 10 Sorcerer... or what would give a Level 5 Sorcerer with 5 Hit Dice of Dragon the same casting as a level 10 Sorcerer.

5) As for having lower hit-dice than the minimum Wyrmling... See all my arguments against removing Racial Hit Dice. Racial Hit Dice help balance monsters-as-PCs just as much as Level Adjusts do.

I just checked again most of the thing under debate here & i can as your questions.

1) Half dragon template changes your creature type to dragon. so you are dragon! there are dragon RHD,which are the same for all type of dragons. why couldn't you take 1?if fact most Half dragons i've seen playing take at least 1 lvl for the +2 to all saves.Now,this is considered a base class for them but NOT applying multyclass penalties,as the monster class is a favored class,in addition to any favored class granted by your other race,(ex.human fighter-half dragon)
Same goes for every template than changes your type.
This whole thing is based on the logic of "increasing creatures power" , its in the MMI page 294 where you add creatures RHD to increase the CR.
It's the same logic that allows a "lesser Aasimar" to have +0 LVL adj & not being outsider. while the normal one has +1 & it is outsider...It took his 1st lvl as an outsider.& the reason it does not have the actual HD is for balance reasons.

2)As stated above,and more detailed in MMI p.294 you can add RHD to increase CR. since DM can do it on npc's why can't anyone do it on their pc?

3)That's how it works.

4)Here i have to admit that i was totally wrong :smallmad:,as i listened to people that obviously did not had the knowledge they claimed they had.Dragons cast spells as sorcerers of a X LVL, acording to age categories. but in MM is says that creatures that cast spells(no SLA),as sorserer of X LVL they always add their racial sorc lvl to their sorc class lvls for purposes of determining spells known/per day.

5)I see your arguments & under other conditions i would agree,in fact i do in many ways.But here i have an egg, when it gets out for the first few hours i can't use it's wings to fly.So,i believe i should have 1 Dragon HD(In fact it also suit me well).I know this is under debate but for my case my DM decides.

Just for the fun:
Combining 1) + 5) i could even get a "Lesser Song Dragon" who does not have any abilities,except of course its type immunities,+ the global true dragon racial traits.It could also fly!so it would just loose the true seeing + alster shelf!!All those with 1RHD or loose the flight for +0 RHD :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Thanks once again!

Greenish
2010-06-21, 06:11 PM
1) half dragon template changes your creature type to dragon. so you are dragon! there are dragon RHD,which are the same for all type of dragons. why couldn't you take 1?Because racial hitdice aren't a class. You can only take class levels, not RHD.

2)As stated above in MMI p.294 you add RHD to increase CR. since DM can do it on npc's why can't any1 do it on their pc?Because players can only take class levels.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 06:17 PM
Because racial hitdice aren't a class. You can only take class levels, not RHD.

Because players can only take class levels.

Where does it says that we are not allowed to take non-class lvls?

Take a look in Draconomicon. if your character is a dragon he takes class lvls OR* RHD. & that's the guideline.

Greenish
2010-06-21, 06:25 PM
Where does it says that we are not allowed to take non-class lvls?Where does it say you could take RHD?

Dragons can be advanced either by adding HD or giving them class levels, but I'm not sure a dragon PC could actually take RHD. Haven't got Dragonomicon though.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 06:30 PM
Where does it say you could take RHD?

Dragons can be advanced either by adding HD or giving them class levels, but I'm not sure a dragon PC could actually take RHD. Haven't got Dragonomicon though.

a dragon pc could take RHD, i have draco & some1 else has already confirmed it.

Now the other question:
A monstrous humanoid PC could not take MH RHD? why dragon PC can & MH can't?
An abberation pc?A monster pc?magical beast pc?

don't you see that you argue with your shelf?
You said PC are not alloed to take non class lvls,but adragon can!

I play an latern archon, can't i take ousider lvls? why? dragons are better because the game has their name in the title?:smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-06-21, 06:33 PM
a dragon pc could take RHD, i have draco & some1 else has already confirmed it.I'd prefer actual rules to hearsay, unless you mean that your DM has agreed to houserule it.

Now the other question:
A monstrous humanoid PC could not take MH RHD? why dragon PC can & MH can't?
An abberation pc?A monster pc?magical beast pc?

don't you see that you argue with your shelf?Or maybe you're just working on false premise.

You said PC are not alloed to take non class lvls,but adragon can!So you say. Could you please provide a quotation confirming this claim?

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-21, 06:59 PM
In the rules for playing a Dragon, it specifically says that a PC Dragon takes "levels" in Dragon RHD, in addition to class levels (if they desire).

However, I believe this is a case of "Specific Trumps General".

Just because a DM can do something with NPCs, clearly does not indicate that Players should be able to do the same thing with PCs.

tyckspoon
2010-06-21, 07:00 PM
Take a look in Draconomicon. if your character is a dragon he takes class lvls OR* RHD. & that's the guideline.

Draconomicon does not say you may take RHD whenever you desire. It says that you are required to take RHD when you hit certain age levels. It does this because Dragons are semi-unique in that they do gain more RHD as they age (note: an 'advanced' specimen of pretty much any other kind of creature is not one that started out small and gained more HD by advancing with RHD. It's just a big example of its kind to start with.) If you are not increasing your Dragon's age category, than it advances by class level, just as Outsiders, Aberrations, Fey, Giants, Monstrous Humanoids, and every other kind of creature do.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 07:00 PM
I'd prefer actual rules to hearsay, unless you mean that your DM has agreed to houserule it.

Or maybe you're just working on false premise.

So you say. Could you please provide a quotation confirming this claim?

Cat Goddess,confirmed it,there is no houserulling here.But since you want it so much.. :

from Draconomicon,page 142:
"As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs,
the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its
dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment
it gains from aging. The character must add this
dragon level as the first level it gains after reaching an age
shown on the table. It gains no benefit from reaching a new
age category until it attains this level.
"

I don't know if it's just me..but in my head,I translate the *to its
dragon “class,”* as a class.So does Draconomicon, so does MonsterManual I at page 301!
Since i believe you have a MMI at your disposal,go to page 301, table 5-4, whatch the ** notice for humanoids. It says "Or by character class"!!
That's why i say you can advance in a character class OR your type class.
Also few pages above p.290 "Monsters and class levels",*his monster class is always a favored class*

As you will notice i (believe)i am right.The only exceptions are humanoids with only 1 lvl of humanoid.It swaps for your class lvl whe you firstly take it. (that's why there are farmers in a village!They lack class lvl but they need to have something to live with)

But please enough of this argument,i got really tired & it's off the threads topic....

Greenish
2010-06-21, 07:06 PM
from Draconomicon,page 142:
"As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs,
the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its
dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment
it gains from aging. The character must add this
dragon level as the first level it gains after reaching an age
shown on the table. It gains no benefit from reaching a new
age category until it attains this level."That says that every few years you're forced to take dragon HD, not that you could take them willy-nilly whenever you level up.

That's why i say you can advance in a character class OR your type class.Advancing monsters is not same as PCs gaining levels through experience points.
But please enough of this argument,i got really tired & it's off the threads topic....I'm not going to stop disagreeing because you tell me to, and since the topic is about whether to take dragon HD or sorcerer levels, the discussion on the possibility to take dragon HD is on topic.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 07:13 PM
Draconomicon does not say you may take RHD whenever you desire. It says that you are required to take RHD when you hit certain age levels. It does this because Dragons are semi-unique in that they do gain more RHD as they age (note: an 'advanced' specimen of pretty much any other kind of creature is not one that started out small and gained more HD by advancing with RHD. It's just a big example of its kind to start with.) If you are not increasing your Dragon's age category, than it advances by class level, just as Outsiders, Aberrations, Fey, Giants, Monstrous Humanoids, and every other kind of creature do.

Agreed! But you can always manage it with a helpfull DM (*and party).
Same might apply to most creatures ( if it fits you).

*200 years have passed, i was a hatchling phaerimm, now i can finally advance those 2 lvls i had the xp for-->look i am a juvenile phaerimm!!

I never said you can do it whenever you lvl-up.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 07:19 PM
I'm not going to stop disagreeing because you tell me to, and since the topic is about whether to take dragon HD or sorcerer levels, the discussion on the possibility to take dragon HD is on topic.

the dragon has not yet shown up.so the age is not a problem(look the above post).I have the option atm to choose it however i like.It's a specific situation,not a general.

I am gona try harder to change your mind.you (obviously)didn't even bother to look at the pages i sugested.:smallannoyed:

Please, check "advancement by character class" & when it applies. It is clearly only for humanoids that had only 1 lvl of humanoid,which was replaced by the class lvl(as happens to humanoids with only 1 RHD).. /end for me.i am not here to strugle changing the minds of the stubborn people:smallannoyed:

Greenish
2010-06-21, 07:34 PM
Please, check "advancement by character class" & when it applies. It is clearly only for humanoids that had only 1 lvl of humanoid,which was replaced by the class lvl(as happens to humanoids with only 1 RHD).It's not just humanoids, it's anything with just one RHD.

Further, you still conflate gaining levels via experience points and monster advancement. Monsters do not advance by getting experience. DM may boost monsters by giving them more hitdice or character levels.

Flickerdart
2010-06-21, 07:39 PM
It's not just humanoids, it's anything with just one RHD.

Further, you still conflate gaining levels via experience points and monster advancement. Monsters do not advance by getting experience. DM may boost monsters by giving them more hitdice or character levels.
It would certainly explain why, as you go up in levels, you fight tougher monsters! :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2010-06-21, 08:39 PM
Agreed! But you can always manage it with a helpfull DM (*and party).
Same might apply to most creatures ( if it fits you).

*200 years have passed, i was a hatchling phaerimm, now i can finally advance those 2 lvls i had the xp for-->look i am a juvenile phaerimm!!

I never said you can do it whenever you lvl-up.

Eh, well, in that case, ok. Requires a crazy-accommodating group, tho, as I have a difficult time imagining the people who would let the world move on another 15 years without interacting with it just so you could get another racial HD. Even in campaigns with significant downtime periods you could probably expect to see a Wyrmling advance to..probably Young. Maybe Juvenile, for fast-growing dragons and/or campaigns with very long timescales.

Optimization-wise, you are almost always best off taking class levels over being an older dragon, at least when using the system presented in the Draconomicon. This is because advancing age categories adds a higher LA along with draconic HD, and while dragon-type HD are pretty nice, LA are thoroughly useless. Dragon-type HD aren't *that* nice, and you need something like an ECL 25 character to get the special abilities that come with older dragon age categories (you don't even get DR until about Young Adult with most dragon colors, and that's a near-epic character!)