[3.5] Gestalt Spontaneous Caster

[Fidelacchius]

This should be the last build I ask for help on guys. Same game as my previous posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155956), but now I've roped my bother into playing too. He's a new player and wants to play a spontaneous caster.

So to refreash:
This is a bit of a homebrew gestalt alternate; we have two classes as normal, and we can take whatever prestige classes we want, even two at a time. However, each side of the gestalt must use class features 9feats and skill points are ok) obtained on that side to qualify for a prestige class on that side, and, if your a caster, the prestige class only benefits that sides spell casting. For instance I could go wizard//cleric, but I wouldn't qualify for the Mystic Theurge Prc. I would if I went Favored Soul/Fighter//wizard/cleric though, but I couldn't boost my favored soul caster level with Mystic Theurge.

We also get 1 free LA.

Further more maneuvers and the ToB is banned (though feats from it can still be used). Also try to avoid anything from 3.0 or the settings books as I must get pre-approval for that.


So my thought so far as race goes include Venerable Dragonwrought Kobald, Catfolk, Aasimer, Spell scale (with some +1 LA template), or something else with the draconic template. And no Lesser Planetouched is not legal, I asked.

As far as class goes, I'm thinking Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer, Warmage or beguiler. He wants to do Shugenja//Warmage, but I'm trying to steer him away from that since his spell selection with blow (though the limited selection might be good for a first timer IDK).

We already have a Knight//Fighter, a Fighter//Rogue, a Swashbuckler//Rogue and a Wizard//Archivist (myself) who is specializing in summoning.

Any help you folks could give would be great.

[Greenish]

Kobold. (And aasimar.) Anyway, let him be warmage//shugenja if he wants, it's not like the other players are optimizing much either.

Dragonic Human is a good race.

[Fidelacchius]

Kobold. (And aasimar.) Anyway, let him be warmage//shugenja if he wants, it's not like the other players are optimizing much either.

Dragonic Human is a good race.

I'm sorry, I'm a bad man, I don't know how to spell made up words. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

I'm sorry, I'm a bad man, I don't know how to spell made up words. :smalltongue:All words are "made up".

Yeah, sorry, the "kobald" is just a pet peeve of mine.

[Fidelacchius]

All words are "made up".

Yeah, sorry, the "kobald" is just a pet peeve of mine.

Well, I did say he was venerable, so he's probably a BALD Kobold so there ya go. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, thanks for the advice, that was my second instinct after I recoiled in horror from the word Shugenja, but I wanted to get a third opinion to see if there was anything I was missing.

[Wings of Peace]

Now, does it need to be an actual spontaneous caster, or do prepared casters who through trickery can cast spontaneously also count? You said he was a new player so the latter might be a bit complex for him.

If it is, see if your dm will let him play a generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm). They're from Unearthed Arcana.

[Delivery Ninja]

Hmm. While you say you want a spontaneous spellcaster, would you be averse to Psionic classes at all? They're basically spontaneous casters, except with the addition of a 'power point' system that makes the casting work a little more like in a videogame. For some new players, it can be a little easier to get the hang of than regular casting.

Psionics doesn't have to worry about spell failure, either, so you could stick something with heavy armor proficiency on the other side if you wanted. Or an appropriate spontaneous casting class. Wilder and Sorceror, Psion and Beguiler or Duskblade, Psychic Warrior and that spontaneous-casting Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana... Any of these sound good?

[Salbazier]

Well, I did say he was venerable, so he's probably a BALD Kobold so there ya go. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, thanks for the advice, that was my second instinct after I recoiled in horror from the word Shugenja, but I wanted to get a third opinion to see if there was anything I was missing.

Since when kobold are not bald? (I mean they don't even have hair in the first place :smalltongue:)

[Fidelacchius]

Hmm. While you say you want a spontaneous spellcaster, would you be averse to Psionic classes at all? They're basically spontaneous casters, except with the addition of a 'power point' system that makes the casting work a little more like in a videogame. For some new players, it can be a little easier to get the hang of than regular casting.

Psionics doesn't have to worry about spell failure, either, so you could stick something with heavy armor proficiency on the other side if you wanted. Or an appropriate spontaneous casting class. Wilder and Sorceror, Psion and Beguiler or Duskblade, Psychic Warrior and that spontaneous-casting Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana... Any of these sound good?

Only issue there is I don't know how to do a psionic character, so I couldn't really help him out. But the DM may not be opposed. BTW he's new but he's not a noob, he's played VG based on the D20 system, before like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR.

[Delivery Ninja]

Only issue there is I don't know how to do a psionic character, so I couldn't really help him out. But the DM may not be opposed. BTW he's new but he's not a noob, he's played VG based on the D20 system, before like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR.

Psionics isn't too difficult to get the hang of, really. Somebody else could probably link you to a useful guide or two somewhere online, though I'm afraid I don't know of any myself. Some basic searching got me to this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036.0), though, which looks handy enough at first glance.

As far as non-psionic spontaneous casting goes, replacing Shugenja with Sorceror or Bard would probably be close enough to what he seems to want. Just make sure he knows to use the Warmage casting for direct damage spells, and the other side's spells known for utility and other useful spells. That should get him through without too much trouble.

[Zovc]

Only issue there is I don't know how to do a psionic character, so I couldn't really help him out. But the DM may not be opposed. BTW he's new but he's not a noob, he's played VG based on the D20 system, before like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR.

KotOR's force powers are more like Psionics than they are "vancian casting", then again, Baldur's Gate's spellcasting is vancian casting. :P

Indeed, the generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) is a good class, it's almost strictly better than a Favored Soul, and might have a case at being better than the Sorcerer.

Speaking of better than the Favored Soul, there is a variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) for Clerics or Druids that makes the class cast spontaneously. Clerics get domain powers which can do cool stuff like let you reroll 1's.

Do you want both sides of the gestalt to be spontaneous casting?

[Vulaas]

I'm sorry, I'm a bad man, I don't know how to spell made up words. :smalltongue:

It bothers me when people call other culture's folklore 'made up words'. It's German. It'd be like misspelling ghost.

[Fidelacchius]

KotOR's force powers are more like Psionics than they are "vancian casting", then again, Baldur's Gate's spellcasting is vancian casting. :P

Indeed, the generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) is a good class, it's almost strictly better than a Favored Soul, and might have a case at being better than the Sorcerer.

Speaking of better than the Favored Soul, there is a variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) for Clerics or Druids that makes the class cast spontaneously. Clerics get domain powers which can do cool stuff like let you reroll 1's.

Do you want both sides of the gestalt to be spontaneous casting?

That's what he seems to want.

[Fidelacchius]

It bothers me when people call other culture's folklore 'made up words'. It's German. It'd be like misspelling ghost.

Sorry, I didn't know, didn't mean to offend. And on behalf of English speaking people everywhere, I'm sorry Deutschland (and most everyone everywhere for that matter), for stealing all your cool words.

[Zovc]

That's what he seems to want.

Does he care what stat he keys off of?

[Greenish]

It bothers me when people call other culture's folklore 'made up words'. It's German.It's also made up. Like all words. :smallamused:

[Fidelacchius]

Does he care what stat he keys off of?

Not that I know of. Though of course avoiding MAD would be good.


It's also made up. Like all words. :smallamused:

Yeah, but some words we still use today people made up a really, really long time ago, and that should garner some respect.

[Zovc]

It's hard to combine Arcane and Divine and avoid MAD, there are essentially two choices:

Wizard//Archivist, since Archivist uses Intelligence, and Sorcerer//Favored Soul, since Favored Soul uses Charisma.

See if your DM will let you do a Spontaneous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) who keys off of Charisma, then put Sorcerer, Warlock, or Warmage on the other side. There shouldn't be a real problem making cleric use Charisma instead of Wisdom, it's a less useful stat.

I recommend Warlock alongside a casting class to make sure the player doesn't run out of gas and get bored. Also UMD shenanigans might encourage the player to try new things, like seek out scrolls or wands.

What's cool about Cloistered Cleric//Warlock is that you go down to light armor (which the Warlock wants to top out at), and Warlock lets you keep your BAB.

[Greenish]

See if your DM will let you do a Spontaneous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) who keys off of Charisma, then put Sorcerer, Warlock, or Warmage on the other side. There shouldn't be a real problem making cleric use Charisma instead of Wisdom, it's a less useful stat.There's a feat for that, I've heard. Anyway, if given a choice between charisma based casting and wisdom based casting, charisma based would be better. Charisma gives you extra turn attempts, wisdom merely increases your already good will save.

[Fidelacchius]

It's hard to combine Arcane and Divine and avoid MAD, there are essentially two choices:

Wizard//Archivist, since Archivist uses Intelligence, and Sorcerer//Favored Soul, since Favored Soul uses Charisma.

See if your DM will let you do a Spontaneous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) who keys off of Charisma, then put Sorcerer, Warlock, or Warmage on the other side. There shouldn't be a real problem making cleric use Charisma instead of Wisdom, it's a less useful stat.

I recommend Warlock alongside a casting class to make sure the player doesn't run out of gas and get bored. Also UMD shenanigans might encourage the player to try new things, like seek out scrolls or wands.

What's cool about Cloistered Cleric//Warlock is that you go down to light armor (which the Warlock wants to top out at), and Warlock lets you keep your BAB.

I don't know that he necessarily wants to go Arcane//Divine, that may be my influence. I don know that he wants to wear armor and cast spontaneously though. Warmage//Bard, Warmage//Sorcerer, or even Warmage//Warlock may be good since his general preference is to blow stuff up real good.

[Delivery Ninja]

Warmage sounds like it would definitely fit his preferences, then. Just keep in mind that the Warmage's Armored Mage class feature only applies to Warmage spellcasting. Combine it with Sorceror on the other side, and he still won't be able to cast his Sorceror spells in armor without taking arcane spell failure chance.

Mind you, there are some ways around it. Battle Sorceror (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) is one, and wearing a Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt (light armor with 0% arcane spell failure chance) is another.

The Chain Shirt is typically regarded as the better choice, but in Gestalt, your brother probably won't mind the lessened spells known and spells per day that a Battle Sorceror gets. Either one would be a good choice, I think.

[Greenish]

Warmage//Warlock isn't hugely powerful, but it's pretty straight-forward.

[Snake-Aes]

Psions make for good gestalt characters. A psion + factotum has excellent synergy, a warblade could also take place if you want him taking names... but would overlap, and the factotum is a caster.

[Fidelacchius]

Mind you, there are some ways around it. Battle Sorceror (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) is one, and wearing a Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt (light armor with 0% arcane spell failure chance) is another.

Better is a Githcraft Mithril Chain Shirt with thistledown padding underneath, 0% Arcane spell failure, 0 Armor Check Penalty, +1 to concentration checks. 1950 g and it's still base armor. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway the point is moot since he's going to be a bard//warmage. His words: "So wait, I get to be Jack Black? Done."


Psions make for good gestalt characters. A psion + factotum has excellent synergy, a warblade could also take place if you want him taking names... but would overlap, and the factotum is a caster.

See above:


Further more maneuvers and the ToB is banned (though feats from it can still be used).

[Delivery Ninja]

Better is a Githcraft Mithril Chain Shirt with thistledown padding underneath, 0% Arcane spell failure, 0 Armor Check Penalty, +1 to concentration checks. 1950 g and it's still base armor. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway the point is moot since he's going to be a bard//warmage. His words: "So wait, I get to be Jack Black? Done."

xD Well, that's settled, then. Be sure to look up a Bard guide or two. In addition to blowing things up, he can do a great job making the party's melee characters hit harder, possibly even while hitting pretty hard himself.

[Optimystik]

Warmage//Warlock isn't hugely powerful, but it's pretty straight-forward.

Even better, Master Spellthief/Sorcerer//Warlock. Sneak Attack + Eldritch Blast + Spell/Buff Stealing + Skillmonkey + Crafter woo.

[Zovc]

Anyway the point is moot since he's going to be a bard//warmage. His words: "So wait, I get to be Jack Black? Done."

Psions get mind bullets.

[Zaq]

Since when kobold are not bald? (I mean they don't even have hair in the first place :smalltongue:)

Blasphemy. Real kobolds have hair. And bark. And eat babies. And venerate King Torg (ALL HAIL KING TORG!).

Those stupid hairless things are just little bits of Dwagon wankery that accidentally got published instead of cleaned up. There's nothing koboldian about them.

[strider24seven]

xD Well, that's settled, then. Be sure to look up a Bard guide or two. In addition to blowing things up, he can do a great job making the party's melee characters hit harder, possibly even while hitting pretty hard himself.

Melodic Casting is a must. With that he will actually stand out in the party as a skillmonkey and a blaster. A high INT will help there, with skills and Warmage Edge.

[Fidelacchius]

Melodic Casting is a must. With that he will actually stand out in the party as a skillmonkey and a blaster. A high INT will help there, with skills and Warmage Edge.

I also seem to remember a feat or class feature or something that gave a bonus for multiple types of performance done simultaneously?

Edit: found it, versatile performer.

[Fidelacchius]

Alright, I got the DM to agree to let him play a lesser Aasimer with the Draconic template, since it's his first time and all. He's got the abilitly scores 10 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 12 wis, and 23 cha. He's got 3 feats (2 flaws, fussy and arcane performer (his perfom skill is a 10 at level 1)) to burn so I gave him Melodic Casting and Versatile Spellcaster.

Any sugestions for a third feat at level 1? I'm considering force of personality to give him a boost to his already good will save, or some kind of draconic feat.