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Zaq
2010-06-21, 08:09 PM
So, in Fiendish Codex I there's an interesting feat called "Ordered Chaos." Among other things, it states that "Spells and effects keyed to alignment affect you as if you were chaotic, in addition to your actual alignment." For examples, it lists Word of Chaos not affecting you, gaining the ability to use an Anarchic Weapon without penalty, and the ability to take a certain feat which requires a chaotic alignment. So far so good, right?

Well, things get a little weird when you add in one of my favorite power sources: Incarnum. "Effects" is a very broad term, and the examples given in the feat support just how broad it is. However, there are quite a few effects in Magic of Incarnum which are keyed to alignment. This is pretty easy for some of them: someone who is, for example, Good, but has Ordered Chaos, would be considered native to both Good-aligned planes and Chaotic-aligned planes when they have a Planar Chasuble shaped, and would gain resistance to both cold and electricity. So far so good, again. But what happens when, for example, a Good character with Ordered Chaos shapes an Incarnate Weapon? Is it a hammer (for being Good) or an axe (for being Chaotic)? The text explicitly says that both effects would apply. Would you end up with a hammeraxe, becoming the envy of dwarves everywhere? It's a clear example of effects not mixing in an intended manner, but it doesn't seem harmful. Just really weird in places. Thoughts?

(Incidentally, this might also be the only way for a character to take levels in both Incarnate and Soulborn... a NG character who takes Ordered Chaos is considered simultaneously Neutral, Good, and Chaotic, so that character would qualify for both classes, right?)

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 08:13 PM
But what happens when, for example, a Good character with Ordered Chaos shapes an Incarnate Weapon? Is it a hammer (for being Good) or an axe (for being Chaotic)? The text explicitly says that both effects would apply. Would you end up with a hammeraxe, becoming the envy of dwarves everywhere? It's a clear example of effects not mixing in an intended manner, but it doesn't seem harmful. Just really weird in places. Thoughts?

I haven't read the feat, but assuming you're on the ball, I'd let it do bludgeoning and slashing damage.


(Incidentally, this might also be the only way for a character to take levels in both Incarnate and Soulborn... a NG character who takes Ordered Chaos is considered simultaneously Neutral, Good, and Chaotic, so that character would qualify for both classes, right?)

Theoretically yes, but why would you want to? :smalltongue:

Zaq
2010-06-21, 08:28 PM
Theoretically yes, but why would you want to? :smalltongue:

For the lulz. And strictly on an NPC, because players shouldn't have to take Soulborn.

DragonsAion
2010-06-21, 11:17 PM
Well I think it would give you access to both weapons. Effectively you can get the hammer for being good or the axe since you count as being Chaotic.

But that’s just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.....which isn't much anymore. :smallconfused:

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 11:28 PM
Well I think it would give you access to both weapons. Effectively you can get the hammer for being good or the axe since you count as being Chaotic.

But that’s just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.....which isn't much anymore. :smallconfused:

Don't get discouraged because of what happened in the Soulknife thread. I remember back in the day when I though True Necromancer was awesome, and was quite firmly shown the error of my ways. :smalltongue:

As for Ordered Chaos, I got a chance to read the feat... and yes, I'd have to say this thing would play hob with Incarnum unless I'm missing something. You really are treated as chaotic and non-chaotic at the same time. (In a sense, that could be ultra-chaotic, I suppose...)

hangedman1984
2010-06-21, 11:31 PM
But what happens when, for example, a Good character with Ordered Chaos shapes an Incarnate Weapon? Is it a hammer (for being Good) or an axe (for being Chaotic)? The text explicitly says that both effects would apply. Would you end up with a hammeraxe, becoming the envy of dwarves everywhere?

not that familiar with icarnum, but what would happen in the above example if the character did not have said feat, but was naturally CG?

Zaq
2010-06-21, 11:33 PM
not that familiar with icarnum, but what would happen in the above example if the character did not have said feat, but was naturally CG?

Normally, you couldn't take it at all. It's an Incarnate-only soulmeld, and Incarnates can ONLY be NG, NE, LN, or CN. Unlike the pally or the druid, there's an actual reason for it.

(I guess one would take the feat Shape Soulemeld without being an Incarnate, but this is more fun.)

Doresain
2010-06-21, 11:41 PM
so, with this feat, would it be possible to make a monk/barbarian? :smallconfused:

not that it would be any good, but it is an interesting concept

Draken
2010-06-21, 11:48 PM
More importantly.

Would it let you double-dip your incarnum radiance?

Law-Chaos: + Attack, + Speed
Good - Chaos: + AC, + Speed
Evil - Chaos: + Damage, +Speed (It's like skirmish!).

mrcarter11
2010-06-22, 12:11 AM
Does anyone else think that Chaos is the worst of the incarnate choices?

Zaq
2010-06-22, 12:33 AM
Does anyone else think that Chaos is the worst of the incarnate choices?

Pretty much. Especially since the Radiance and the Avatar don't give the same benefit, like the other ones do.

That said, I've played a Chaotic Incarnate and had fun with him. They're by no means unplayable.

mrcarter11
2010-06-22, 12:35 AM
Well, I just joined a game.. And this will be my first time playing an incarnate.. Should I take the feat and try it?

Zaq
2010-06-22, 12:38 AM
Well, I just joined a game.. And this will be my first time playing an incarnate.. Should I take the feat and try it?

Honestly, I don't think it seems overpowered. The only one that's actually a significant boost in power is probably an Evil Incarnate taking it to get the Evil bonus to damage and use ranged attacks... but that's not even really a boost in power. I think it's a nifty trick, but not broken. If your GM's on board with it, it's worth trying.

mrcarter11
2010-06-22, 12:46 AM
Well.. I just so happen to be evil.. I really don't think my character is that great.. It's just.. its a difficult class to make the first time..

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 12:57 AM
Typically, if you create an effect based on your alignment, and your alignment has two parts, you generally pick one aspect or the other to manifest. For instance, if you are LG, and you cast Turn Anathema, you can either turn [Evil] outsiders or you can turn [Chaotic] outsiders. You don't get both for being LG.

I don't see Incarnum as being much different. You either manifest a Good Incarnum Weapon, or a Chaotic one. You flash a Good Incarnum Radiance, or a Chaotic Radiance. One or the other, chosen when you use the ability, but not both at once.

Just my interpretation based on precedent.

Zaq
2010-06-22, 01:04 AM
The thing about that, Keld, is that the feat explicitly says that effects work on both your original alignment and Chaotic. I don't dispute the precedent, but this seems more... specific.

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 01:12 AM
Thats mostly for incoming effects. If you were lawful and had this feat, and for some reason were hit in the same round with a Word of Chaos and a Dictim, you'd be safe. If you picked up a +1 Axiomatic Anarchic Sword, you'd be safe.

You couldn't, however, simultaneously cast a spell that is both lawful and chaotic though, and you couldn't otherwise create a magical effect that is as such.

As I said, this is how I read it. From a balance standpoint, its fine. You pay a feat, you get a little extra benefit out of some abilities. Its no different than Ability Focus or Power Attack. From a precedence standpoint, however, I think its clear that you have to pick one component of your alignment at a time to represent in any given action when you use an ability that is determined by that alignment.

Optimystik
2010-06-22, 03:24 PM
Thats mostly for incoming effects.

Thing is, it doesn't specify any particular source for the effect, whether incoming, inherent etc. (Or indeed what even counts as an "effect.")

Sometimes I wish D&D defined things as rigorously as M:TG does. WotC already has rules lawyers on the payroll, they should use them. :smallannoyed:

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 03:36 PM
I'll concede if anyone can cite me a single instance of an effect being simultaneously two facets of alignment, even non-opposed. The only thing I can think of close to it is if you were to cast a summon spell that summons say...an Archon, that the spell would be simultaneously lawful and good, but thats not really what I mean since the summon is inherantly unaligned.

I guess what I'm saying is that say you had the ability to smite evil or chaos. If you smote someone who was chaotic evil, you wouldn't get double effect. You would choose to smite evil, or smite chaos, and which ever you picked, you'd be successful. This is different from say...a Paladin/Cleric of Destruction who used his Pally smite at the same time as his Destruction domain smite, since they are 2 seperate effects used simultaneously.

I'm saying it just doesn't feel right, since most of the time when you manifest some aspect of your alignment, you have to choose one aspect at a time.

Person_Man
2010-06-22, 03:48 PM
IIRC, Fiendish Codex I is 3.0 material. So by RAW it gets grandfathered in to 3.5, but many DMs ban it because of shenanigans like this.

But I would personally allow it for a strait Incarnate X. You'd get:

Incarnum Radiance: Chaotic grants bonus to Movement.
Soulborn Smite Opposition (sucks, use a homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8716380#post8716380)), can Smite more enemies.
Adamant Pauldrans: DR 1/alignment = essentia invested
Incarnate Avatar: Chaotic grants bonus to ranged attacks = essentia, and +30 land speed if bound to Soul chakra.
Planar Chasuble: Electricity Resistance 10 + (5 * essentia). Also increases Incarnum Radiance when bound to Brow chakra.
Incarnate Weapon: I would rule you create a double weapon, a hammer, or an axe. Your weapon would also bypass Chaotic DR, in addition to it's normal alignment.


While powerful for a feat, I don't think it's that big of a deal, especially for an Incarnate, which is a Tier 3ish class when used properly (and Tier 6 if used poorly). You'd basically just get a bump to movement, Electricity Resistance, and situational DR stuff.

But if this is your DM's first experience with Incarnum, I would avoid it. Nothing turns a DM off to a rules set quicker then the feeling that the player is exploiting it outside of the RAI.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 03:51 PM
IIRC, Fiendish Codex I is 3.0 material. So by RAW it gets grandfathered in to 3.5, but many DMs ban it because of shenanigans like this.

BoVD is 3.0.

FC1 is 3.5. And quite late in 3.5, at that.

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 04:17 PM
Fiend Folio is the one you are probably thinking of that is 3.0, although it was published late in 3.0 like BoVD was.

FCI and FCII are both fully functional 3.5 suppliments.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-22, 04:20 PM
I'll concede if anyone can cite me a single instance of an effect being simultaneously two facets of alignment, even non-opposed. The only thing I can think of close to it is if you were to cast a summon spell that summons say...an Archon, that the spell would be simultaneously lawful and good, but thats not really what I mean since the summon is inherantly unaligned.

What about the summon monster that summons a Concordant Killer (MM-IV)? Or even the concordant weapon it carries?

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 04:30 PM
Again, as I said, thats not really what I ment. Summons are inherantly unaligned unless you align them. If you summon a neutral creature, the summon isn't aligned toward anything. Its not really the same thing.

Even the concordant killer's blade is just stacking 2 seperate instances of abilities. If you are neutral good, the blade does 2d6 because its aligned evil. If you are lawful good, the blade does 2d6 because its aligned evil and 2d6 because its aligned chaotic on top of that, as a seperate effect that is acting concurrently.

I'm talking about one effect that manifests itself in a manner where you choose one aspect of your alignment or another. I can't think of a single thing that does both at once. The afore mentioned Turn Anathema spell is an explicit example of choosing one facet or another to represent.

I guess it would be like instead of having 4 spells Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Chaos Hammer, and Order's Wrath, you hypothetically had one spell...Hurt Opposition. You choose one aspect of your alignment, and anyone who opposes that is hurt. You wouldn't get both aspects if you were LG, you'd have to choose L or G and hurt C or E respectively. Most things conform to this, at least as far as I've seen in D&D.

Optimystik
2010-06-22, 04:33 PM
I forget where I read it, but there is rules text that states if a subtyped creature has an alignment opposite its subtype (e.g. the oft-cited Succubus Paladin) alignment-based effects always give it the worst possible result. So she would be susceptible to both Holy Word and Blasphemy, be locatable via both Detect Evil and Detect Good, etc.

I'm trying to find the cite, I'll have more time to look when I get home.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 04:44 PM
Monster Manual- each alignment subtype section has the following text- with the particular alignment name in place:

For evil subtype, it's

"Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what it's alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment"

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 04:47 PM
And again, thats incoming effects that affect a creature.

I guess in another analagy, say you had a character with smite red. He could smite anyone who was red, as well as anyone who was orange (red + yellow) or anyone who was purple (red + blue). Nobody has smite orange though, which would work against anyone who was red or yellow, and all combinations including them.

I think even if an Incarnate counted as both chaotic and good, he would have to choose whenever he used an ability to identify as good or chaotic. He couldn't simultaneously itentify as both to gain the bonuses of both. There is no precident for anything like that happening. In every other case I can think of, if you manifest an ability specifically dependant on your alignment, you pick one or the other non-neutral component.

Again, I'm not argueing this from a balance standpoint. I think its fine. Spend a feat, gain an advantage. Its no stronger than Power Attack. I'm just saying that in every case I've ever seen where you personify some aspect of your alignment, you have to choose one aspect.

Optimystik
2010-06-22, 05:00 PM
And again, thats incoming effects that affect a creature.

You're the one adding the "incoming" clause - neither Ordered Chaos nor the MM rules cite have it.

I don't see any reason why a Succubus Soulborn (LG) couldn't use melds from all four alignments. Again, it comes down to how you define "effect."

Draken
2010-06-22, 05:06 PM
You're the one adding the "incoming" clause - neither Ordered Chaos nor the MM rules cite have it.

I don't see any reason why a Succubus Soulborn (LG) couldn't use melds from all four alignments. Again, it comes down to how you define "effect."

At least try to be optimal damit!

Neutral Good Barbazu Incarnate with the Ordered Chaos Feat.

Best part is that at Incarnate 20 you gain the (Native) subtype.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 05:07 PM
The really harsh way of looking at it, would be to say you don't qualify for any, since they're all opposed to your alignment- both your real alignment, and your "effective" alignment.

However- the LG Succubus belies that- since despite being "treated as Chaotic and evil" she can still qualify for the class and retain all her powers.

So maybe for class purposes, you can always qualify for any aligned class, PRC, feat, and so on?

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 05:11 PM
I agree with you Optymistic. But if a Sucubus Soulborn bound Incarnum Weapon, she wouldn't get to simultaneously have all 4 weapons, along with all 4 rider effects. She would have to pick one of her 4 possible alignments to represent when binding Incarnum Weapon. She could change this every day, if she wished, but she couldn't have them all at once.

Thats what I'm getting at. She can simultaneously be all 4 alignements, but when she performs an ability that is tied to a specific alignment (like Incarnum Weapon or Incarnum Radiance or similar "pick an alignment" type abilities such as the above mentioned Turn Anathema.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-22, 08:45 PM
...Does the feat let you qualify for stuff as if you were Chaotic? *reads the feat* Gives an example of taking a feat that requires "Chaotic", so yeah, it works for qualifying.

You could do something like Monk/Barbarian (if you reeeeeally wanted to or something). Paladin/Barbarian? Monk/Chaos Monk? Trying to find a way to make that cool. It's there somewhere...

Flickerdart
2010-06-22, 08:46 PM
...Does the feat let you qualify for stuff as if you were Chaotic? *reads the feat* Gives an example of taking a feat that requires "Chaotic", so yeah, it works for qualifying.

You could do something like Monk/Barbarian (if you reeeeeally wanted to or something). Paladin/Barbarian? Monk/Chaos Monk?
Paladin with ACF for CHA to AC/Paladin of Freedom?

Optimystik
2010-06-22, 09:08 PM
You could do something like Monk/Barbarian (if you reeeeeally wanted to or something). Paladin/Barbarian? Monk/Chaos Monk? Trying to find a way to make that cool. It's there somewhere...

Bard/Paladin would be fun I suppose :smalltongue:

Zaq
2010-06-22, 09:09 PM
Bard/Paladin would be fun I suppose :smalltongue:

Ooh! Ooh! Bard/Paladin/Mystic Theurge!

...what?

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 09:13 PM
Bard/Paladin is actually already possible. Devoted Performer (CAdv) allows you to be a LG Bard.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-22, 09:21 PM
Aaaaactually, it would let you take the [Chaos] Devoted Spirit maneuvers/stances as a nonchaotic Crusader. Can you do weird shenanigans with a Crusader/Master of Nine using the 6th level [Law] and [Chaos] Devoted Spirit stances at the same time?

Keld Denar
2010-06-22, 09:24 PM
While cool....that doesn't really give you a whole lot. Taking 11 on attack rolls is sweet, and rerolling max roll dice is sweet, but they don't synergize terribly hard. If I was gonna do something funky like Mot9, I'd get one or the other and then take Stance of Immortal Fortitude or such.

Eldariel
2010-06-22, 09:48 PM
While cool....that doesn't really give you a whole lot. Taking 11 on attack rolls is sweet, and rerolling max roll dice is sweet, but they don't synergize terribly hard. If I was gonna do something funky like Mot9, I'd get one or the other and then take Stance of Immortal Fortitude or such.

Stance of Alacrity is a pretty amazing choice; my first choice bar none come level 15.

Sydonai
2010-06-23, 12:23 PM
You're the one adding the "incoming" clause - neither Ordered Chaos nor the MM rules cite have it.

I don't see any reason why a Succubus Soulborn (LG) couldn't use melds from all four alignments. Again, it comes down to how you define "effect."

She would count as all four alignments for spells cast on her, but could only use Lawful and Good..........and she would probably turn into an Archon eventually.

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 01:00 PM
...Does the feat let you qualify for stuff as if you were Chaotic? *reads the feat* Gives an example of taking a feat that requires "Chaotic", so yeah, it works for qualifying.

You could do something like Monk/Barbarian (if you reeeeeally wanted to or something). Paladin/Barbarian? Monk/Chaos Monk? Trying to find a way to make that cool. It's there somewhere...

This would be remarkably useful in gestalt

How about for a gestalt character we have a Lawful Good Hellbred with Ordered Chaos. On one side of the gestalt he goes straight sorcerer, but on the other he takes two levels in every different paladin class (Honor, Freedom, Slaughter, and Tyranny) since he technically qualifies for all of them? Divine Grace four times, and since it's your primary casting stat you're going to be buffing it anyway, right? By the time you're level 8, and if you have the modest charisma modifier of +5 at that point, that's still an untyped +20 bonus on all your saves, to say nothing for the 3 base fortitude you gain from each of your two paladin levels. On top of that you get Full BAB and by RAW, I believe Lay On Hands and Deadly Touch continues to stack throughout the entire deal, since they work off Paladin Levels, without specifying which paladin it's talking about. A nice interpretation is that all of them apply, but by this point most DMs are having trouble keeping from frothing at the mouth, and are likely to fly into a berserk rage.

2xMachina
2010-06-23, 01:23 PM
And they can't make you fall. Muahaha.

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 01:40 PM
And they can't make you fall. Muahaha.

plus you don't take multiclass penalties for taking all these paladin levels, since Hellbred have paladin as their favored class! Hell, this would work ridiculously well even outside of gestalt.

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 01:48 PM
She would count as all four alignments for spells cast on her, but could only use Lawful and Good..........and she would probably turn into an Archon eventually.

Whether that's true or not, again, depends on how you define "effect."

As for turning into an Archon... that depends on setting.

These aren't unreasonable responses, but not the only possibilities either.

Sliver
2010-06-23, 01:59 PM
I don't think you can multiclass with class variants... Can you?

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 02:05 PM
I'm pretty sure Variant classes are considered different classes. They have entirely different progression (With abilities and the like) and really the only things that remain the same between them are a few abilities, proficiencies, Saves, and BAB. Unless, obviously, there's a specific ruling that I missed.

Person_Man
2010-06-23, 02:07 PM
This would be remarkably useful in gestalt

How about for a gestalt character we have a Lawful Good Hellbred with Ordered Chaos. On one side of the gestalt he goes straight sorcerer, but on the other he takes two levels in every different paladin class (Honor, Freedom, Slaughter, and Tyranny) since he technically qualifies for all of them? Divine Grace four times, and since it's your primary casting stat you're going to be buffing it anyway, right? By the time you're level 8, and if you have the modest charisma modifier of +5 at that point, that's still an untyped +20 bonus on all your saves, to say nothing for the 3 base fortitude you gain from each of your two paladin levels. On top of that you get Full BAB and by RAW, I believe Lay On Hands and Deadly Touch continues to stack throughout the entire deal, since they work off Paladin Levels, without specifying which paladin it's talking about. A nice interpretation is that all of them apply, but by this point most DMs are having trouble keeping from frothing at the mouth, and are likely to fly into a berserk rage.

Bonuses, spells, and class abilities with the same name do not stack. Divine Grace in particular does not stack with itself, and PrC's that provide it generally have language to that effect, explicitly saying "this ability does not stack with the Divine Grace provided by Paladin."

So you could theoretically pick up Divine Grace (once), Dark Blessing, and Arcane Resistance. That would give you your Cha bonus to saves twice, or thrice if it was a Spell or Spell-like ability. But even that would be a very idea. As you correctly observed, announcing to the DM that you can pass 95% of all saving throws is essentially the same as asking him to make enemies using No Save effects.

2xMachina
2010-06-24, 01:44 AM
Dip Warblade for the concentration maneuvers. Or the alt save feats that bypass auto fail on 1.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-24, 01:02 PM
I'm pretty sure Variant classes are considered different classes. They have entirely different progression (With abilities and the like) and really the only things that remain the same between them are a few abilities, proficiencies, Saves, and BAB. Unless, obviously, there's a specific ruling that I missed.


Multiclassing And Variant Classes
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

I'd say the paladin variants count as a "wholly separate" class, since they're at least as different from the paladin of honor as the bardic sage is from the bard (at least where tyranny and slaughter are concerned, and if those are different folding freedom in with honor doesn't make sense).

2xMachina
2010-06-24, 01:05 PM
Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

... So, you get 4xCha to saves...

EDIT: blergh, wrong tag.

Touchy
2010-06-24, 01:09 PM
... So, you get 4xCha to saves...

EDIT: blergh, wrong tag.

Of course, you have to stay within ALL of your paladin's codes to GET the 4xCHA saves. :smallcool:

Marriclay
2010-06-24, 01:34 PM
Of course, you have to stay within ALL of your paladin's codes to GET the 4xCHA saves. :smallcool:

evidently you must only assosciate with True Neutral Characters.