Four Arms? (3.5)

[Jastermereel]

I'm running a low-level D&D 3.5 campaign at the moment (4 going on 5) and a player of mine wants to play a character with four arms, ideally fairly human except for that feature.

Does anyone have any idea how this could work? Are there any races/templates/items that allow for this without ? I'd be open to re-fluffing a race, though Thri-kreen's LA is a little steep for the current game's level.

If it were to be home-brewed, I'd are there any suggestions on what would be balanced. What sort of penalty or adjustment would an extra set of arms call for? Are such things worth the equivalent of a feat? A LA? Something in between?

I haven't yet pinned down the player on how functional they'd like them to be, that is, if they're fully functional in combat, semi-functional (like the Diopsid's), or non-functional (like the Insectile template) so I'm not yet sure what I'd be balancing, but are there any suggestions on how to start?

[Dr.Epic]

I have a theory: if they were turned to stone, then, finding a master sculptor, graft two more stone arms onto the PC, then turn them back to flesh. That could work, maybe?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Dragon Compendium has a delightful LA+1 4-armed race of beetle-men called diopsids. Of course, walking around as a giant beetle-person doesn't sound very 'close to human,' but whatever, man. Fight the power.

[Kaje]

Easy.

1. Make a human.

2. Say he's got four arms.

[senrath]

There's also the spell "Girallon's Blessing", which gives the target an extra pair of arms. It's in the Spell Compendium and is a Cleric/Druid/Wiz/Sorc 3 spell. It's duration is 10 minutes/level.

[sofawall]

Dragon Compendium has a delightful LA+1 4-armed race of beetle-men called diopsids. Of course, walking around as a giant beetle-person doesn't sound very 'close to human,' but whatever, man. Fight the power.



semi-functional (like the Diopsid's)

I think he knows about that race.

[PId6]

There is an LA+1 Thri-kreen in MM2, which is exactly the same as the XPH one except without the psionics (no PP, no PLAs). It still has 2 RHD, so you'd need a 3rd level party to use it. However, it's really not that overpowered to allow it with 1 or 0 RHD, depending on what level you start at.

[Fax Celestis]

DMG-II has a template that adds two arms to any creature. +2 LA, I think, but it specifically says in the sidebar that it is deliberately overpriced to keep it from being too commonplace. You could probably get away with reducing it to +1.

[Zaq]

How about a two-level dip in Totemist for Girallon Arms? They're not quiiiiite as good as the real thing, but they're still good.

That, or just refluff a Thri-kreen. Hat of Disguise optional.

[Optimystik]

Seconding non-psionic Thri-kreen, though the RHD might be a pain.

[Darrin]

There's also the spell "Girallon's Blessing", which gives the target an extra pair of arms. It's in the Spell Compendium and is a Cleric/Druid/Wiz/Sorc 3 spell. It's duration is 10 minutes/level.

You can also make it permanent with permanency, per the rules in Savage Species. Vulnerable to dispel magic, though.


How about a two-level dip in Totemist for Girallon Arms? They're not quiiiiite as good as the real thing, but they're still good.


The totem bind description is really vague about these extra arms, so it's a bit of a DM's call on how these should work. The italics-fluff describes them as real arms, but the crunch mechanics that follow don't explicitly say they work like real arms. If you're OK with extra arms without any LA, this is probably the best way to go for low levels.

I also like Fax's suggestion of using the template in DMGII but knocking the LA down to +1. If Incarnum is off the table, that'd be the best way to do this without resorting to bug-eyed monster-people.

[Flickerdart]

The Insectile template (Savage Species) gives you six arms. The extra arms can't use weapons, but I think it's LA 0.

[Jastermereel]

I have a theory: if they were turned to stone, then, finding a master sculptor, graft two more stone arms onto the PC, then turn them back to flesh. That could work, maybe?
That could work as fluff (even if I'm not sure that the rules work that way for it), but what about balancing it? Are these arms useless or functioning and, if they're functioning, what should they "cost"?


Dragon Compendium has a delightful LA+1 4-armed race of beetle-men called diopsids. Of course, walking around as a giant beetle-person doesn't sound very 'close to human,' but whatever, man. Fight the power.

Aye, I've seen them (and mentioned 'em earlier) and if the player doesn't have a preference on the functional-spectrum, I think they're a fine compromise, but the +1 LA provides for much more than the arms. What do you think the arms alone should justify?


Easy.
1. Make a human.
2. Say he's got four arms.
A Wizard Did It is pretty much the catch-all, but at what cost to the player does this become balanced?


Wow. I drop off the net for 6 minutes (mid-reply) and there are half a dozen new replies. Thanks everyone!

[Flickerdart]

You could easily say that the thing which gave him his arms made them weaker than normal - he needs to wield a Light or One-Handed weapon in two arms and a Two-Handed weapon with all four.

[Masaioh]

The Insectile template (Savage Species) gives you six arms. The extra arms can't use weapons, but I think it's LA 0.

It's LA +2. The arms can use weapons, they just don't give you extra natural attacks.

[Mr.Moron]

I'd say allow them, have them replace the standard human bonus to skills. Houserule a couple of less-useful prerequisites (Nimble Fingers?) onto the Multiweapon Fighting line. Lots of arms doesn't really juice any kind of build except for precision damage builds and even then a slight feat tax is probably enough to balance it out.

[PId6]

I'd say allow them, have them replace the standard human bonus to skills. Houserule a couple of less-useful prerequisites (Nimble Fingers?) onto the Multiweapon Fighting line. Lots of arms doesn't really juice any kind of build except for precision damage builds, and even then a slight feat tax is probably enough to balance it out.
Considering how incredibly feat-intensive good rogue builds are (not to mention melee skirmishers), I agree completely with the above. Requiring a feat and losing the human skill points is more than enough to balance it. Heck, if he doesn't intend to use a precision damage build, you don't even need the feat tax. It's not really that good.

Of course, none of this applies if he's playing a DFI bard or there is one in the party.

[Jastermereel]

To tell the truth, I'm not yet sure what class she's considering. We'd been talking about psionics, but that was a build ago.

I'm not too worried about DFI Bards or other optimizing perils. The group isn't really the power-gaming type. I was just trying to make sure that I wouldn't overlook something big about the arms that would come back to bite me a few levels from now. Sure, I can Rule 0 a problem away, but it's better to figure it out in advance than on the fly in the middle of combat a few months into a character's career.

[Mr.Moron]

To tell the truth, I'm not yet sure what class she's considering. We'd been talking about psionics, but that was a build ago.

I'm not too worried about DFI Bards or other optimizing perils. The group isn't really the power-gaming type. I was just trying to make sure that I wouldn't overlook something big about the arms that would come back to bite me a few levels from now. Sure, I can Rule 0 a problem away, but it's better to figure it out in advance than on the fly in the middle of combat a few months into a character's career.

In that case I really wouldn't worry too much. Outside of some specific CharOP cases extra arms won't be that huge a benefit.

It'll give some limited utility in and out of combat, whenever it would be of benefit to be holding more than 2 objects. However I can't think of too many situations like that off the top of my head, at least not ones that would come up regularly enough for it to be a game-changer.

[Cealocanth]

If s/he wants a bonus to having four arms, ie. more ability to weild weapons, more hands to spellcast with, than s/he will have to take some sort of penalty. I suggest a hit on Charisma or Constitution. Cha because it's freaky, Con because the heart and brain have to work harder to keep the arms working. S/he will also have trouble finding correctly fitting clothes. Weapon usage will need extra training to avoid cutting the extra arms.

If s/he wants extra arms, let him/her have them, just make sure they RP it, both inside and outside of combat.

If you want it to be something other than mutation, I suggest half naga or something along the lines. Sure, s/he has a tail, and is a blue/green scaley human with webbed fingers and toes and gills, but s/he has four arms doesn't s/he?

[Person_Man]

From my extra attacks thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595):

Arms of the Naga: IIRC it's a graft or something similar that gives you two extra arms, but they can't be used for additional attacks, and they're expensive.

Arms of Plenty spell: 2 extra clawed hands, and the wording is less restrictive then Girallon's Blessing. Lords of Madness pg 209.

Gloves of Man: While they don't give you hands themselves, they do allow tentacles or other non-arm appendages to manipulate objects as fully-functional hands with opposable thumbs. And you can get tentacles with a variety of feats, spells, psionics, templates, etc. Savage Species p. 57, 42000 GP.

Spare Hand: Extra arm that can only hold things. Magic of Eberron.

Third Arm: This magic item can hold things, and can attack if you power it with an Artificer infusion. There's a more expensive version that has two additional arms instead of just one. Magic of Eberron.

Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3): Marilith form gives you 2 extra arms. You'd have to hand wave the Drow restriction though.

Fang of Lloth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207): 2 extra arms at ECL 14. It would be a while until he got them, but he would get them. And it's a decent class.

Prehensile Tail: You can use your tail attack as an arm. This is the most efficient way to qualify for Multiweapon Fighting, as there are half a dozen easy ways to get a tail attack. Serpent Kingdoms pg 147.


I would actually just go with a refluffed Totemist though. It's a lot simpler, it's all day, and it's not game breaking.

[Prime32]

Dragon magazine has the "obah-blessed" template which gives you another pair of arms, +8 to grapple checks and some ability score bonuses for +2 LA. There's also a version which grants four extra arms for +3 LA.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Hey, if you've got Dragon Compendium, a dvati character also technically has four arms! Durr hurr hurr!

[Prime32]

Hey, if you've got Dragon Compendium, a dvati character also technically has four arms! Durr hurr hurr!More useful is having two heads. Insanely useful is being able to possess two things at once if you have that ability.

[Choco]

They have templates for feral, winged, and 2-headed variants of base races, so I would suggest creating a 4-armed template, probably at LA+1 with some other bonuses added.

[2xMachina]

Divinations?

Forewarned is forearmed. :smallwink:

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

This thread could be avoided by reading person_man's thread


Dragon magazine has the "obah-blessed"fail

[ScionoftheVoid]

I may try to do something with the Xill (I recently started playing FFXII again and playing as Gilgamesh in D&D would be awesome), if you don't mind of course. I'll get the bare bones up now.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG259b.jpg
Xill
Hit Die:d8
Skills:4+Int modifier, (4+Int modifier)*4 at first level. The Xill's class skills are: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Diplomacy(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Tumble(Dex), Use Rope(Dex).

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Xill Body

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Multiattack, +1 Dex

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Improved Grab

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Paralysis, +1 Str

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Implant, +1 Dex

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2|Planewalk, +1 Con[/table]

Xill Body
Upon entering this class, a creature loses all of its racial abilities. It gains the Outsider type and its traits (Darkvision 60ft (Ex), proficiency with Simple and Martial Weapons, Light Armour and Shields (except Tower Shields)). Its size changes to Medium. A Xill has four arms with hands suitable for weilding weapons or for the somatic components of spells. It has four claw attacks which deal 1d4 damage plus the Xill's Strength modifier. It also has a bite attack, which deals no damage but can eventually deliver a paralysing venom. Finally, it gains a Natural Armour bonus to its Armour Class equal to half it's Con modifier or +2, whichever is higher.

Multiattack
A Xill gains Multiattack as a bonus feat. If they already have this feat, they may select one feat of their choice. In addition a Xill gains Multiweapon Fighting any time it would normally gain the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a xill must hit with one or more claw attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each claw that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time.

Paralysis (Ex)
Those bitten by a xill must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2HD+Con modifier) or be paralyzed for 1d4 hours.

Implant (Ex)
As a standard action, a xill can lay eggs inside a paralyzed creature. The young emerge about 90 days later, literally devouring the host from inside, acting like a Destruction spell (DC 10+1/2HD+Con modifier). A remove disease spell rids a victim of the egg, as does a Heal check (DC 10+2*HD+Con modifier). If the check fails, the healer can try again, but each attempt (successful or not) deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient.

Planewalk (Su)
These planar travelers like to slip between the folds of space to attack enemies as though from thin air. They can cross from the Ethereal Plane with a move action but take 2 rounds to cross back, during which time they are immobile. As a xill fades away, it becomes harder to hit: Opponents have a 20% miss chance in the first round and a 50% miss chance in the second. A xill can planewalk with a willing or helpless creature.


Or, you know I could just do the whole thing. Hope it's good enough!:smallwink:

Class Comments:
I did this whilst sleep deprived and with the passing fancy to play as something Gilgamesh-esque so don't expect the height of reason. Some stat boosts and all it's abilities are in there, with a small perk if you go into Ranger or something similar. Altered the DCs for some abilities, hopefully they've turned out about right. I left Planewalk for last because of it's obvious uses in stealth and escape, but kept it in the class because casters were doing the same three levels ago to a lesser extent. It felt good to make and should provide a decent chassis for a build using three or more weapons, so I feel I've done well.

I have to give some credit to Oslecamo, creator of this wonderous thread. Partially for the inspiration to do some work for once and partially for the chance to play as a Phasm (I love that monster so much, even if its natural form is an ick-thing).

Edit: Added some stuff I'd forgotten, corrected spelling lapses, etc.

Homebrew from this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724) I recommend all the material in that project. I know a Xill isn't particularly human but it's the same size and people with extra arms aren't normally the types to show their faces when walking through town anyway (refluff it if it really bothers your player).

[For Valor]

Without detriments (like losing a level or feat prereqs), 2 more arms is balanced around level 6 for what you can do.

My suggestion is to give him a level of the "Extra Arms" class (made up right now for convenience), which has all poor saves, poor BAB, a hit die equal to that of his latest class level (or the class he has the most levels in), and "2 more arms" sa a class ability.

[Fax Celestis]

Without detriments (like losing a level or feat prereqs), 2 more arms is balanced around level 6 for what you can do.

No, it's really not. DMG II has a template that is +2 arms for +3 LA, and it is specifically indicated as being overpriced.

[Hague]

Just use the Thri-kreen and take away all the basic stuff and stuff human traits on it. Thri-kreen are crazy, since their favored class is ranger and Multiweapon fighting can be substituted for TWF at your DM's discretion. Pick up Pyrokineticist and then wail on guys with 4 fire lashes all at once then Quicken Spell-like (Psi-like) ability feat for Bolt of Fire and Nimbus and you've got 7 ranged attacks at 20th.

Speaking of Pyrokineticist, how do you determine the level of the psi-like abilities in its character progression?

[Mr.Moron]

Without detriments (like losing a level or feat prereqs), 2 more arms is balanced around level 6 for what you can do.


Yikes. No way. Unless you're using Precision damage, or other simliar bonus dice on each attack extra arms nets you very little advantage. Even then those kinds of builds are hardly at the top of the power heap in the game.

From the OPs description it doesn't even sound like a case of someone wanting a charOP edge, they just want to look Machamp for whatever reason. There isn't any reason to make them take huge power penalties, or use massive gold sinks.

[Bakkan]

In core, you can get four arms by being a Sahuagin Mutant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sahuagin.htm), which explicitly can use the arms for extra attacks. This has 2 RHD and +3 LA, though. However, the normal Sahuagin is only 2 RHD, LA +2, so I think that a +2 arms template is appropriate at LA +1. However, if the player is willing to refluff his character a little, Monstrous Humanoid HD are not terrible.