Lawyers/Law-students in the playground?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am a student who still has one more year before I go to college, so I am starting to look into careers and some universities. It is in my interest to study laws.

So I was wondering if lawyers or law students can share their experiences while studying law with me.

Please and thank you.

[snoopy13a]

Hmm, I'm a law student but I don't know how much I can help you. The US (with the exception of the state of Louisana) is what is called a "common law" country due to English influence while I'm guessing that Mexico is likely a "civil law" country due to the Spanish influence.

Plus, in some countries law is an undergraduate program while in the US it is a post-grad program. I'm not sure about Mexico. Foreign lawyers who want to practice in the U.S. or coordinate with US business can obtain a LLM degree.

Due to the common law influence, law school in the US is based mostly on studying important cases and students are expected to synthesize rules from the case holdings. Traditionally, law school professors use the Socratic method while teaching but not all continue to do so.

I suppose that civil law countries spend much more time studying statutes but again I'm not exactly sure.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Hmm, I'm a law student but I don't know how much I can help you. The US (with the exception of the state of Louisana) is what is called a "common law" country due to English influence while I'm guessing that Mexico is likely a "civil law" country due to the Spanish influence.

Plus, in some countries law is an undergraduate program while in the US it is a post-grad program. I'm not sure about Mexico. Foreign lawyers who want to practice in the U.S. or coordinate with US business can obtain a LLM degree.

Due to the common law influence, law school in the US is based mostly on studying important cases and students are expected to synthesize rules from the case holdings. Traditionally, law school professors use the Socratic method while teaching but not all continue to do so.

I suppose that civil law countries spend much more time studying statutes but again I'm not exactly sure.
Is it just me or did I not understand any of that? :redface: :eek:

[Salbazier]

I would understand the first paragraph except that i forgot what is common and civil law means

The second paragraph I understood

the rest is lost on me

Sorry for derailing :smalltongue:

[Force]

**looks at the title**

Anybody got a bus?

[Kira_the_5th]

Well, I know that Common Law comes from the English legal system, and deals heavily with statutes and previous court decisions to aid in rulings for current cases. Granted, I'm just a forensics student who's only taking basic law, so I could be wrong.

As for the OP, I can say that the law classes I've taken in college have been some of the best classes I've gotten to take so far, but that could be in part due to the fact that I've had some really good professors, and that I only needed two for my major. Law's always a good career to go into, though. Unfortunately, I don't know much about Mexican law, so I don't think I'd be much help.

[Chaelos]

Common law is law derived from English legal philosophy; essentially, it relies less on statute and more on judge-made law (commonly called a "holding" for each case, or more generally "precedent"). It is predominant in most nations affiliated/formerly associated with the British Commonwealth, along with the United States.

Civil law is based on the foundations of the Roman legal tradition. It revolves largely around massive statutes, rather than judicial precedent. Most every other nation on earth except for Islamic nations, China (which, although also statute-based, is very different from most of the rest of the world in legal history and philosophy), and Common Law nations are based around one form of Civil Law or another.

With regard to the OP: I'm a law student in the United States, and as such we spend much of our time discussing previous cases and the way they affect the current state of the law. As I'm assuming you're from Mexico, I'm guessing our law school experiences will be very, very different (among other things, we have to complete a 4-year Bachelor's degree from a university before we can get into law school here); as Snoopy said, I'm guessing you'll be spending a lot of time reading statutes, rather than cases.

For our part, though, we read a few dozen cases per week and discuss them (read: "Get grilled by professors over tiny details that aren't really important to the holding") in class, via the question-and-answer Socratic method. This forces us to stay on our toes, but some of the cases are actually a lot of fun. Workers' Compensation and Torts have some really entertaining situations pop up, if you can get past the whole "human tragedy" aspect of what the cases are actually about.

The most memorable one, though, was a Property case where a Judge ruled that, "As a matter of law, this house is haunted."

Legal nerd spoiler:
The issue had to do with a lady basically putting her house on one of those "America's Most Haunted" TV shows, then selling it to some random buyer; when the buyer tried to sell it later, he found out it had this horrible reputation as a portal to hell of sorts, and that because of people's fear of the place its value had been mostly destroyed. He sued, and won, because the original owner had essentially created the condition ("haunting") that caused all the "damage" to the house's value.

The best part? The judge kept punning about ghosts the entire opinion.

I don't know if law school is any fun in Mexico, but up here? It's awesome.

[skywalker]

Common law is law derived from English legal philosophy; essentially, it relies less on statute and more on judge-made law (commonly called a "holding" for each case, or more generally "precedent"). It is predominant in most nations affiliated/formerly associated with the British Commonwealth, along with the United States.

On the other hand, in some ways civil law places much more emphasis on the judge than common law. For instance, it would probably shock a lot of Americans to learn that in most countries, the magistrate is in almost total control of the courtroom and that a jury won't even be involved in most cases. In this sense, the American system is much less "judge-centric" than others.


For our part, though, we read a few dozen cases per week and discuss them (read: "Get grilled by professors over tiny details that aren't really important to the holding") in class, via the question-and-answer Socratic method.

The tiny details are important in some ways, tho. It's really supposed to teach you how to think, more than anything. There is no "right answer," only a sufficient (and insufficient, conversely) way to arrive at the answer you put forward.


I don't know if law school is any fun in Mexico, but up here? It's awesome.

This, my friends, is a masochist. :smallwink:

[BSW]

I'm a former law student. Now I'm a criminal prosecutor. With a badge and everything. Which I certainly have not flashed at cute bartenders and waitresses in a futile effort to impress them. I would never do something like that.


The most memorable one, though, was a Property case where a Judge ruled that, "As a matter of law, this house is haunted."

That was always my favorite case in property. Who ya gonna call, indeed. It was full of ghost puns and references. The spirit of equity moved the judge to reach his conclusion.



I don't know if law school is any fun in Mexico, but up here? It's awesome.

I always liked it. Except for contracts. Contracts is a stupid subject. Especially the UCC. And the Restatement.

My focus was predominantly on criminal law, evidence, and trial advocacy. I loved all that stuff. Still do.


The tiny details are important in some ways, tho. It's really supposed to teach you how to think, more than anything. There is no "right answer," only a sufficient (and insufficient, conversely) way to arrive at the answer you put forward.

I cannot stress the importance of tiny, seemingly insignificant details enough. The proper and intelligent application of the relevant rules to the facts absolutely hinging on your ability to spot minute details in both the cases that you're citing and the case you're dealing with.

That said, if any of you law students ever want any advice or anything, feel free to PM me.

[snoopy13a]

The most memorable one, though, was a Property case where a Judge ruled that, "As a matter of law, this house is haunted."





I loved the haunted house case but I'm torn between that and the wasp case from torts (Lussan v. Grain Dealers Mutual Ins. Co., 280 F.2d 491).



What brings this all about was a wasp - or a bee - it really doesn't matter for bees and wasps are both of the order hymenoptera and while a wasp, unlike the bee, is predacious in habit, both sting human beings, or humans fear they will. The wasp did not intrude upon a pastoral scene or disturb the tranquillity of nature's order. What this wasp did - perhaps innocently while wafted by convection or the force of unnatural currents generated by the ceaseless motion of man's nearby machines - was to find itself an unwelcome passenger in an automobile then moving towards, of all place, Elysian Fields - not on the banks of Oceanus, but a major thoroughfare in the City of New Orleans on the Mississippi.

[Trog]

*wants to hear more about the bee/wasp* :smallbiggrin:

One of the gamers in my gaming group is a lawyer type (and not just a rules lawyer :smalltongue:). Not sure what his current specialty is off hand. He occasionally lurks here briefly, I believe.

[Cealocanth]

Although neither I nor anyone directly related to me have ever been a law student, lawyer, or anything else related to that, I'd say that my brother, known as Sticktheif here in the playground, is a born lawyer. He has the natural ability to twist almost everything anyone says into a perverted mass of unbreakable case. So, I think he can be my nominee for a Lawyer in the Playground.

Actuall lawyers out there, would that skill actually be good for a lawyer to have?

[Lensman]

Although neither I nor anyone directly related to me have ever been a law student, lawyer, or anything else related to that, I'd say that my brother, known as Sticktheif here in the playground, is a born lawyer. He has the natural ability to twist almost everything anyone says into a perverted mass of unbreakable case. So, I think he can be my nominee for a Lawyer in the Playground.

Actuall lawyers out there, would that skill actually be good for a lawyer to have?

I'm actually a solicitor - an English lawyer doing general legal work, as opposed to a barrister doing mostly advocacy. Having said that, most of the time I am in the magistrates court defending the indefensible. The main skills a lawyer needs are the ability to give a set of facts the most positive spin, and the ability to persuade idiot clients that the case against them is rock solid and they should plead guilty rather than looking really stupid after a trial. I like to think I have both skills.

Despite all popular assumptions, lawyers don't usually lie. On the other hand, lawyers regularly work on the assumption that they try not to tell ALL the truth, particularly not the bits that count against their clients...

Interesting legal phrases. "My client informs me that..." = "No, your worships, I don't believe a word of this either, but it's what the idiot instructing me has demanded I say"
"May it please you, your worships" = "No way are you going to accept this proposal but I want my client to know I did the best I could even though he's a crooked toerag who deserves everything you do to him."
"I am instructed to make an application for bail..." = "even though I know it is hopeless..."

But the key to it all is that justice has to be seen to be done, and that means making sure defendants know that they have been treated fairly, even when "fair" means "six months imprisonment".

[BSW]

Although neither I nor anyone directly related to me have ever been a law student, lawyer, or anything else related to that, I'd say that my brother, known as Sticktheif here in the playground, is a born lawyer. He has the natural ability to twist almost everything anyone says into a perverted mass of unbreakable case. So, I think he can be my nominee for a Lawyer in the Playground.

Actuall lawyers out there, would that skill actually be good for a lawyer to have?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "perverted mass of unbreakable case." It sounds to me like you mean that he's good at arguing. It's a useful ability for a lawyer to have... BUT, it has to be honed and fine tuned.

We don't just have to good at arguing. We have to be at arguing in a particular way. In general, our arguments have to be easily followed and understood while incorporating the application of specific statutory rules and case precedents to the specific facts at hand.


IThe main skills a lawyer needs are the ability to give a set of facts the most positive spin, and the ability to persuade idiot clients that the case against them is rock solid and they should plead guilty rather than looking really stupid after a trial.

Heh, this reminds me of a quote from a famous attorney:

"When the law is against you, pound on the facts. When the facts are against you, pound on the law. When both are against you, pound on the desk."


Despite all popular assumptions, lawyers don't usually lie. On the other hand, lawyers regularly work on the assumption that they try not to tell ALL the truth, particularly not the bits that count against their clients...

Absolutely true. In fact, in the US we're governed by the Model Code of Professional Responsibility. The MCPR specifically prohibits us from outright lying to the court while also expressly providing that we don't have to present facts that are adverse to our client's case. As a result, we usually end up getting pretty good spinning part of the truth to convince people of things that aren't necessarily true.



Interesting legal phrases. "My client informs me that..." = "No, your worships, I don't believe a word of this either, but it's what the idiot instructing me has demanded I say"
"May it please you, your worships" = "No way are you going to accept this proposal but I want my client to know I did the best I could even though he's a crooked toerag who deserves everything you do to him."
"I am instructed to make an application for bail..." = "even though I know it is hopeless..."

Reminds me of an exchange I watched in court one day...

Defense Attorney: I'm entering a plea of not guilty on behalf of my client. We're going to be claiming self-defense, your Honor.
Judge: Isn't this the case where the victim was stabbed seven times?
Defense Attorney: That's right, your Honor.
Judge: In the back.
Defense Attorney: (grimaces) That's right, your Honor.
Judge: I'm looking forward to hearing this explanation. We'll set trial for...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wow, thanks. this is very interesting.... umm does anyone know of good introductury reading to laws? might help me.

[Kiroth6]

Well, book recommendation is a bit difficult since I'm currently studying U.S. law and don't know how familiar you are with the general concepts. As far and basic introductory fiction, To Kill a Mockingbird isn't a bad starting point.

You could also out Before the Law, it has some pretty cheap copies on amazon.

According to the CIA's world factbook, the civil procedure and constitutional theory of the United States and Mexico are similar so, depending on how close you are to entering your legal studies you might even be interested in looking over an introduction or a nutshell on constitutional theory.

As I am still studying and have yet to finish my degree, please take my advice with a grain of alt though.

[Deth Muncher]

I are aspiring law studant.

Right now, I'm just about to start my second year in college as an English major/PoliSci minor and Music Performance minor. The first two are for law, since you need a good command of language to be able to write/research/argue, and PoliSci because...well, it's the laws of the nation plus politics, but my secondary minor is because I goddamn love music.

When I told my father my intentions and my current school focuses, he said:
"So, what, are you going to tapdance into the courtroom?"

[Kiroth6]

I would definitely encourage you to go for that secondary minor in music if that is what you love. There was recent article in the legal magazine that they post at our campus about a lawyer who was able to turn his love of art and his legal background into practice representing artist's interests in courts and for contracts.

It is not just your knowledge of the law but your other skills as well that can help you best represent your client. The great thing about law is that it can touch almost any industry and you never know what may come in handy. There is a reason you don't have to be a pre-law student in order to apply for law school.

[centuriancode]

If you're after more introductory reading (ish), then The Paper Chase isn't bad for a (very) basic idea of what teaching through the Socratic Method is like. Also just a good movie.